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A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge



SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 23 2012, 12:53am


Views: 1933
A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge

Greetings!

Welcome to another instalment of "A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge," a word game drawn from two of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle English glossaries:

A) A Middle English Vocabulary, by J.R.R. Tolkien, as published in Sisam, Kenneth, ed. Fourteenth Century Verse & Prose, London: Oxford University Press, 1955; and

B) Tolkien & Gordon ed. Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, London: Oxford University Press, 1963.

--
Good news!

In order to play you require neither glossary as this is a game of guessing, reasoned or otherwise. We ask that those who do have access to the glossaries to wait until after you post to look up the words! As always please no answers in subject lines

Unto the Challenge

For each of the following words, please state its definition and/or a contemporary equivalent word as you deem appropriate.

1. moue
2. ilyke
3. bewty
4. romaunce
5. nayted
6. dredles
7. lofers
8. gruchyng
9. prufe
10. cheryche

There you go, have at them! And tarry not -- answers to follow in a few days.

Some parting advice from NZ Strider via NEB: "Try reading Middle English aloud while looking at the text. A few words that your eye misses your ear will catch."


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 23 2012, 12:56am)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Oct 23 2012, 1:05am


Views: 1254
Looks fun!

1. Moo - this is what a cow says.

2. I like - Well I like lots of things.

3. Beauty - looks like it's spelled in Hill Billy.

4. Romance Heart

5. Naked - another word for birthday suit.

6. Yeah I got nothing on this one.

7. Lofers - I used to love putting pennies in these.

8. Grouchy - how I am without Mountain Dew.

9. Proof - it's in the pudding.

10. Cherokee - a tribe of Native Americans.

As you can tell, I should have been a linguist! Cool

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Oct 23 2012, 2:50am


Views: 1243
Hazarding (definitley the right word!) a few guesses:

1. moue move or more
2. ilyke alike
3. bewty beauty
4. romaunce romance

???????????

9. prufe proof
10. cheryche church or cherish

More efforts when I've got more time.Smile



Eye's on Guard
Lorien


Oct 23 2012, 4:57am


Views: 1240
I'll give it a try

1. moue - my
2. ilyke - alike
3. bewty - beauty
4. romaunce - romance
5. nayted - knighted
6. dredles - dreidels
7. lofers - loafers
8. gruchyng - crouching
9. prufe - proof
10. cheryche - cherish


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 23 2012, 9:21pm


Views: 1249
Some great guesses so far, even some bingos!

But we need more players.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Oct 23 2012, 9:55pm


Views: 1219
I'll have you know

All mine were legitimate guesses. Unimpressed

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 23 2012, 11:23pm


Views: 1215
No doubt

Laugh

Some were quite good at that.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Oct 23 2012, 11:49pm


Views: 1228
I'll be surprised

If any of them were correct!

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Morthoron
Gondor


Oct 24 2012, 5:16am


Views: 1230
Recalling my English lit. classes from last century...

1. moue - grimace, pout
2. ilyke - alike
3. bewty - beauty
4. romaunce - deeds of a hero, Romaunce is a story or poem
5. nayted - celebrated
6. dredles - fearless, dreadless
7. lofers - runners
8. gruchyng - reluctant, grudging
9. prufe - proof
10. cheryche - comfort

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 25 2012, 3:10pm


Views: 1196
Answers

... wait, you know what? Imma leave this for a few more days in case people haven't had a chance to get off their horses and play.


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 26 2012, 1:17pm


Views: 1145
My guesses...

1. moue = move
2. ilyke = alike or likely
3. bewty = beauty
4. romaunce = romance
5. nayted = denied
6. dredles = things you spin during Hanukkah
7. lofers = lovers
8. gruchyng = grudging
9. prufe = proof
10. cheryche = cherish, savor

Nifty game, Sir Dennis Smile

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 26 2012, 1:23pm


Views: 1180
I had peaked at the answers already

Blush

But for the record, I wouldn't have got many of them! Cool

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Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 26 2012, 1:45pm


Views: 1213
I'm gonna change

my guess for 9 to "prove" instead of "proof"... I think it would be the verb instead of the noun.

(and I see Eyes On Guard already beat me to "dradles" Laugh... I'll change it to "fearless")

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.

(This post was edited by Phibbus on Oct 26 2012, 1:47pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 26 2012, 8:10pm


Views: 1204
Answers, this time trwly.

With Phibbus' almost perfect offering (across two posts) I thought it time to bring this contest to a close.

Here are the answers:

1. moue = move
2. ilyke = equal (alike captures it I think)
3. bewty = beauty
4. romaunce = romance
5. nayted = celebrated, enjoyed
6. dredles = fearless
7. lofers = lovers
8. gruchyng = grudging
9. prufe = prove (.5 awarded for the n. proof)
10. cheryche = cherish

"U" seems to be a wild card, especially when "f" can be used in place of "v" (a throw back to the English language's Germanic roots, pre-dating it's relatively more Old French-i-fied Middle period).

Given the definition Tolkien provided for "nayted," knighted seems to me a close relative -- and a logical guess -- though I wonder if it is not more closely related to "feted," (modern) French meaning celebrated. It would depend on how the "n" is handled maybe?

Morthoron's answer for moue was quite sensible... it also means pout, from the French moue. (+0.5)

Anyway, further musings and observations are encouraged! Before I go though, here are the results, out of a possible 10.

Phibbus: 9
Morthoron: 7 (the only one to get "celebrated")
Ethel Duath: 5.5
Eyes on Guard: 4.5
Ardamire: 3 (+ .5 for injecting levity into a potentially dry game.)

See, that wasn't so bad Daniel. I'm sure there are many eureka's and "oh I knew that's" among our readers just now. Smile

Now Phibbus, you are awarded one free pass out of the next serious debate on the Hobbit Board.

Thank you to everyone else who had a chance to play!


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 26 2012, 8:18pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Oct 26 2012, 9:08pm


Views: 1158
Woohoo! 3.5!

But I had no "eurekas." Tongue

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 27 2012, 12:27am


Views: 1128
Woot


In Reply To
Given the definition Tolkien provided for "nayted," knighted seems to me a close relative -- and a logical guess -- though I wonder if it is not more closely related to "feted," (modern) French meaning celebrated. It would depend on how the "n" is handled maybe?

Interesting word. Regrettably, I don't have a copy of A Middle English Vocabulary, but my copy of Sir Gawain glosses the word as you say. I seemed to recall "nayt" being used as an variant of "nat" (= "not") in some texts and being related to "nay", hence my guess. Not having any luck locating examples off the top of my head, though. Something to keep an eye out for next time I dig into the old stuff. Wink


In Reply To
Now Phibbus, you are awarded one free pass out of the next serious debate on the Hobbit Board.

Hopefully this is akin to a "Get foot out of mouth free" card—which would be of great personal benefit Blush

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 27 2012, 1:34am


Views: 1132
Makes sense

The word nayted was from Tolkien's glossary at the end of Sir Gawain. However in Tolkien's A Middle English Vocabulary (in Sisam) there's a listing for "nay(e)" meaning "nay." The listing then goes on to offer a phrase "withoutten nay" which means "undeniably" (though to me it looks like "without a doubt"). So it would appear that your answer was in the ballpark at least.

Give yourself another 5% and one of those cards you mentioned.*


* In troth, I almost awarded you a "Get foot out of mouth free" card -- scary coincidence that -- but figured you'd never use it. Like any gift card the benefit evaporates the longer you go without using it.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 27 2012, 1:36am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 27 2012, 1:35am


Views: 1169
Yes, good show Ardamírë ;) //

 


Morthoron
Gondor


Oct 27 2012, 2:12am


Views: 1191
In my defense...

4. romaunce - deeds of a hero, Romaunce is a story or poem.

The word "romance" has a much different meaning currently than to Chaucer when he used the word "romaunce":

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=romance


Quote
c.1300, "story of a hero's adventures," also (early 14c.), "vernacular language of France" (as opposed to Latin), from O.Fr. romanz "verse narrative," originally an adverb, "in the vernacular language," from V.L. *romanice scribere "to write in a Romance language" (one developed from Latin instead of Frankish), from L. Romanicus "of or in the Roman style," from Romanus "Roman" (see Roman).


In fact, many chivalric "romaunces" have very little "romance" whatsoever. Wink

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 27 2012, 3:19am


Views: 1167
No defence needed

You were awarded a full point for the answer you gave... not only did its form fit the criteria of a proper answer according to the rules (such as they are), as far as I'm concerned it's also correct.

Further to this, the listing in the Sir Gawain glossary simply says "romaunce n. romance 2521 [OFr. roma(u)ns.]" with no further explanation (i.e. whether "story" or "love affair" is meant). The number refers to line 2521 of the poem: "As hit is breued in [th]e best boke of romaunce." It is not clear from the context which meaning to take either... though I'm leaning more toward your definition than "love affair."

In any event, I'm glad you spoke up because I think you are owed an additional point for "cheryche = comfort." The listing in Sir Gawain says "v. to treat kindly; to salute graciously." It is clear from that why I accepted "cherish" as the correct answer (aka definition) but I think the v. "comfort" is contained in Tolkien's definition as well. (Now you are at 8 out of 10... very well done!)

For the record, there are five words from each glossary on the list. For some reason though, we seem to have zeroed in on the Sir Gawain words moreso than the others.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 27 2012, 3:28am)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 29 2012, 12:45am


Views: 1070
These are fun!

And always amaze me, with how words have changed - or not! My guesses:

1. moue - looks like "move"
2. ilyke - "similar to"? This word has the same feel as "yclept" ("I am named...")
3. bewty - "beauty"? But maybe this is "bounty"!
4. romaunce - "romance", as in type of novel
5. nayted - I'll guess "knighted"
6. dredles - Similar to "dreidel", would this refer to the spinning part of something?
7. lofers - "lovers"
8. gruchyng - "growing"
9. prufe - The lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock! "Prove".
10. cheryche - "cherish"

Okay, let's take a look at the answers...Not bad, a "7", but that may depend on whether my definition of "romance" holds! Sir D, do you know to what kind of "romaunce" the word refers?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 29 2012, 12:50am


Views: 1073
Ah, I see that Morthoron has provided the details

of "romaunce". Thank you!

And could I have .5 for "knighted"? Angelic


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 29 2012, 3:38pm


Views: 1151
Weeelllll

knighted for nayted does make sense according to the advice from NEB and NZ Strider. I suppose too that being knighted makes one celebrated.... wow that's some stretching though without context it could be an adjective....
hmmmm okay just as an object lesson on the subjective and arbitrary nature of judging performance, you and Eyes on Guard can adjust your score upwards 5% each.

Kny[gh]t is one of few key words to appear in both glossaries -- which is why I include both, for a more complete picture of Tolkien's work with Middle English -- but in Sisam it also appears as Knight(e), Knyght(e), Kny[gh]te, and Kniht. So you can see for yourself that nayted =/= knighted. (P.S. "[gh]" is used instead of yogh [Ȝ] which doesn't always render correctly for me.)

I'm wondering if nayted might have been pronounced hyeted?

Anyway dernwyn, I thought you might appreciate this. While flipping through A Middle English Vocabulary just now, I came across "Ioie" which means "Joy." Do you think this might be how Ioreth was named?

ETA: I also found "Nat=not" in Sisam which further bolsters Phibbus' claim to 5%.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 29 2012, 3:46pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 29 2012, 4:03pm


Views: 1159
Speaking of context, here is the line nayted is used

In Sir Gawain line 65: "Nowel nayted onewe, neuened ful ofte:" which clumsily translates to: Noel celebrated anew, named full often;" (This is from the top of the story, as Arthur's court was celebrating Christmas and the coming new year, just before the Green Knight shows up.)


Phibbus
Rohan


Nov 1 2012, 5:07am


Views: 1234
More about nayt than anybody wants to know


In Reply To
ETA: I also found "Nat=not" in Sisam which further bolsters Phibbus' claim to 5%.


In Reply To
n Sir Gawain line 65: "Nowel nayted onewe, neuened ful ofte:" which clumsily translates to: Noel celebrated anew, named full often;" (This is from the top of the story, as Arthur's court was celebrating Christmas and the coming new year, just before the Green Knight shows up.)

The word continues to intrigue me, and I think there might be something interesting, here. I have a suspicion that Tolkien & Gordon's original gloss may make a bit of an overreaching contextual assumption and that Tolkien may have later corrected himself.

I don't want to bolster my own guess, because I think it's wrong—however it does appear others have made the same assumption. It seems there's an old 1913 Webster dictionary entry for "nayt" that has it as an obsolete form of "deny" (which can be found by googling,) but I have a feeling it's spurious. There's also this Wiktionary entry for "nait" which gives it as derived from Old Norse "nita" (= "deny" or "refuse") in the first definition. And the OED gives "nayt" in one sense as a Middle English spelling of "naught."

The trouble is, none of these give an example of actual usage, and I'm still not finding any. The closest I can come is one instance in the Chaucer's Parson's Tale which looks like it's a late copy error and should actually be "nay" (which is what my standard edition has.) In any case, none of these indicate any past tense of "nayted", as given, and none have meanings would pertain to the usage in the Gawain line.

OK, so the interesting bit: The Gawain gloss has the word as derived from Old Norse "neyta", which appears to be a past tense of the verb "njóta", which means "enjoy" in the sense "have the use of". I suspect Tolkien & Gordon may have added "celebrated" based primarily on the association of the word with Christmas in this particular context. But they don't give a note on the usage in the text itself, which they often do for words with uncertain Old Norse etymologies, making it seem a matter of course.

However, in his ca.1950 translation of the poem, Tolkien renders "nayted" as "announced":


Quote
With loud clamours and cries both clerks and laymen
Noel announced anew, and named it full often;

It may be that he massaged the translation a bit in the absence of a suitable word for "celebrate" that would maintain the alliteration on the 'N's (which would have been quite important to him.) However, this sense agrees closely with the OED's own third (rare) usage of the word "nait" as "recite" or "repeat", itself using the Gawain line as an example (I'm going to stretch a bit and paste the whole entry, since it's interesting, and some won't have access):


Quote
† nait, v.2

Forms: ME nait, ME naite, ME natte, ME nayt, ME nayte, ME naytte, ME neyte, ME (18 Sc.) nate; Eng. regional (north.) 16–18 nate, 18 nait.

Etymology: < an early Scandinavian weak verb (compare Old Icelandic neyta , Norwegian (Nynorsk) nöyta , Old Swedish nöta (Swedish nöta )), cognate with Old Frisian n&#275;ta < an ablaut variant of the base of the Germanic strong verb represented by Old English n&#275;otan to use, have the use of, enjoy, employ (cognate with Old Frisian ni&#257;ta , Middle Dutch -nieten (in prefixed form genieten , ghenieten (Dutch genieten )), Old Saxon niotan (Middle Low German n&#275;ten ; also gen&#275;ten ), Old High German niozan (also giniozan ; Middle High German niezen , geniezen , German genießen ), Old Icelandic njóta , Old Swedish niuta (Swedish njuta ), Norwegian (Bokmål) nyte , Norwegian (Nynorsk) nyta , Danish nyde , Gothic niutan ), probably ultimately < the same Indo-European base as Lithuanian nauda use, profit, advantage, Latvian nauda money. Compare geneat n., neat n.1, note n.1 Compare nait n.

In later use Eng. regional (north.). Obs.
1. trans.

a. To make use of, use, employ; to exert (one's strength). Also refl.: to exert oneself.
c1400 (1380) Cleanness (Nero) (1920) 531 Uche fowle to þe fly&#541;t þat fyþerez my&#541;t serve, Uche fysch to þe flod þat fynne couþe nayte.
c1440 (1400) Sir Perceval (1930) 185 Oþer gudez wolde scho nonne nayte, Bot with hir tuke a tryppe of gayte.
c1450 (1400) Wars Alexander (Ashm.) 2468 Getis &#541;ow a name & naytis &#541;our strethe [read: strenthe].
c1450 (1400) Wars Alexander (Ashm.) 2968 He..naytis him to ryse, Buskis him vp at a braide.
c1540 (1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 10940 Telamon..Gird hym full graidly with a gay sworde, Bad hym nait hit nemly.

1677 W. Nicolson Gloss. Cumbrian Dial. in Trans. Royal Soc. Lit. (1870) 9 316 Nate, to use.
1807 J. Stagg Misc. Poems (new ed.) 48 Then brouce about nor tek sec preesin, To nate your awn.
1894 R. O. Heslop Northumberland Words, Nate, to use, to make use of.

b. To want, need, desire.
a1425 Medulla Gram. (Stonyhurst) f. 8, Aueo, to neyten.
a1500 (1460) Towneley Plays 260 Loke that we haue that we shuld nate, ffor to hald this shrew strate.
c1540 (1400) Gest Historiale Destr. Troy 6031 All necessaries for þe night þat þai naite shuld.

2. trans. To repeat, recite. rare.
c1400 (1390) Sir Gawain & Green Knight (1940) 65 Loude crye watz þer kest of clerkez & oþer, Nowel nayted o-newe, neuened ful ofte.
a1500 (1400) St. Erkenwald 119 Ser Erkenwolde..welneghe al þe ny&#541;t hade nattyd his houres.

Could it be that he changed his mind about the word having the "celebrated" connotations in the interim between the two treatments of the work? Although I suppose "announced", taken more strongly in the sense of "proclaimed" or "heralded", could fall somewhere between "recited" and "celebrated" and indicate a compromise.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.

(This post was edited by Phibbus on Nov 1 2012, 5:17am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 2 2012, 3:05am


Views: 589
Thank you Phibbus

This is exactly the sort of information I was hoping this little contest would uncover.

I should dig out Tolkien's translation of Sir Gawain and compare it to the Tolkien & Gordon OE version. There's likely to be many other progressions to discover.

That Tolkien went from "celebrated" to "announced" in that particular line is fascinating in light of the OED entry having it as "recited" or "repeated." Perhaps he was sensitive to the seeming redundancy of having "recited anew" followed by "named full often" -- actually I count 3 repetitions there. In his English translation it is reduced to (to borrow a word from Geordie) a tautology. This is not necessarily a bad thing in so far as it magnifies the idea that celebratory shouts or sayings resounded throughout King Arthur's Halls.

Along the lines of your suggestion of "proclaimed" or "heralded" as suitable compromises, in light of the OED entry especially but also Tolkien's progression it seems that "invoked" would have been a good intermediate choice as well -- it captures "used" and "announced" and is a clearer echo of "named" -- assuming he wanted to retain the reverberation produced in the original phrase.

Yes very fascinating. I understand that examining the glossaries isn't the type of "reading" the Reading Room is used to. But they are the product of Tolkien's labours. Furthermore I think wrestling with the words gives us some insight into the sort of consideration Tolkien gave to word choice when constructing his own stories.

An aside: I'm very much looking forward to his version of the Arthur Legends, due early-ish next year (2013).


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 2 2012, 3:07am)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 3 2012, 2:02am


Views: 454
This makes one appreciate

how difficult translation can be!

Nowel nayted o-newe...now I'm hearing "nayted" as in "natal, nativity", and for this to refer to Christmas (Noel), the translation is feeling like "Christmas born anew", "born" as in "freshly celebrated", and a play on the celebration being about a birth.

I'm probably getting in over my head here...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






macmallorn
Registered User


Nov 5 2012, 10:53pm


Views: 371
My career in Medieval Linguistics

I want to get into a career with Medieval Linguistics. Especially Old and Middle English, But that chance of a career isn't looking all that good; Not when I can't answer these questions (well maybe I can...it's you're takeUnsure)

Okay, so I think (notice I put the word "think" in italics), that the first word is "move". Moue is only one letter shy of being "move". Plus, when you say it outloud, it also sounds like "move".

2nd word: Ilyke. I'm taking a guess that Ilyke is equivilent to Alike, so that's my final guess on that.
3rd word: So far, there's nothing I can come up with that's closer to "bewty" than the word "beauty".
4th word: Definately Romance.
5th: sound's like knighted
6th: Dread, dreadless, or Dread...something?
7th: Loaves, perhaps? I'm not entirely certain they used the term Loafers back in the times of Old English
8th:Grouchy
9th:Proof
10th:Just a guess, but I think the word might be "cherish".


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 6 2012, 2:54am


Views: 421
Welcome to TORn Macmallorn!

And good for you for jumping right into the deep end. I was speaking with a friend the other day about this thread... I hope that people are not intimidated by this little game, but then I'm not the one who is doing the hard work of figuring out what these words might mean.

Anyway, in case you haven't found the answers yet, they are in this post (be sure to check later posts as some good discussion followed that post; also to see where bonuses came into play based on your own answers.)

By my reckoning you got 7 out of 10 including bonuses! That's not a bad start to a career in Medieval linguistics. Be encouraged -- as with any skill, my sense is the more you contend with Middle English the better you'll get at its interpretation/translation.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 6 2012, 2:55am)


macmallorn
Registered User


Nov 7 2012, 10:53pm


Views: 325
Thanks!

Thank you!Smile


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 11 2012, 5:13am


Views: 316
Over your head? Not at all --


Quote
Nowel nayted o-newe...now I'm hearing "nayted" as in "natal, nativity", and for this to refer to Christmas (Noel), the translation is feeling like "Christmas born anew", "born" as in "freshly celebrated", and a play on the celebration being about a birth.


You have a beautiful mind dernwyn.

Smile


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 12 2012, 12:52am


Views: 321
It's easy to understand

Tolkien's fascination with languages, peer closely into them and there's so much to discover!

*blushes* Well...there's a lot I have learned from reading the writings of the Beautiful Mind Himself...and we all are, after all, his "students"! Cool


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






SirDennisC
Half-elven


Nov 14 2012, 3:20am


Views: 476
This just in

I was doing a little grazing at the local Indigo and had a chance to look up line 65 in Sir Gawain by Simon Armitage. He had it as "Noel," they cheered, "Noel, Noel!" which left me a little flat

Now I should say I'm all for keeping things simple, and he did pick up on the repetition built into the original line (as I observed in a previous post). As well, it appears from his use of "cheered" at least, that he was working from Tolkien & Gordon. But note how much more beautiful the idea is expressed in the original, or in Tolkien's English translation -- yet neither used the word Noel more than once.

This demonstrates for me (probably not earth shattering for the rest of you I know) how translation is not as simple as switching one word for another. Of course there is the way different languages are structured which prevents it from being as straight forward as that. Translation of prose is translation of ideas. Yet while good translation occurs at the level of the idea, not just at the mechanical level, it seems Tolkien strove to retain the flavour of the original mechanics where ever possible.

hmmm


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Nov 14 2012, 3:30am)


Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Nov 14 2012, 4:18pm


Views: 431
That reminds me of a dreadful translation of

a Puccini opera (La Boheme). Now, I don't know Italian at all, so I have no idea in what ways this could be translated better. But when the beautiful, soaring soprano solo is sung with the words "They call me Mimi," somebody needs to get fired!Shocked