The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: The level and style of violence in The Hobbit trilogy

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The level and style of violence in The Hobbit trilogy

Joe20
Lorien

Oct 8 2012, 4:52am

Views: 2838

The level and style of violence in The Hobbit trilogy

Its quite obvious now that The Hobbit trilogy is definitely going to be a much lighter affair than that the LOTR trilogy, as it is in the books, however this got me thinking. Will that translate to the violence and warfare that we see in the films. The Lord of the rings films featured a lot of gritty battle sequences which included decapitations and the cutting of limbs, blood spurting out etc, and it worked really well.

Do you think that will be lacking in the Hobbit films due to the more lighthearted nature of the films and story? I for one hope not, as I thought it really helped ground LOTR in reality and show the the dangers that our fellowship were experiencing. I am afraid that it might. For example the during the 2nd trailer we see Óin running past a goblin and knocking it on the head... not exactly the gruesome kills we saw in LOTR. (And yeah I know that such comedic elements are present in the lord of the rings e.g Sam with the frying pan and that its just a trailer)

pulpfiction16
Rivendell

Oct 8 2012, 5:12am

Views: 1380

Transition of tone

I imagine that the first film will very much be the softer, more 'cartoon'-ish sort of violence (smacking over the head, and what not), but, by the third film with the Bot5A that the tone and violence will become much grittier ala the Lord of the Rings films. It'll be kind of like what Guillermo talked about on the forums back when he was going to direct and regarding the colour palettes shifting and the notion that by the end of the Hobbit, the fairy tales of Middle Earth are over. So, I very much assume that the violence will reflect that, so as to not make a jarring transition (when viewed in order) to Fellowship's violent, gritty prologue.

Sorry about the thousand usages of 'gritty' in my paragraph.

titanium_hobbit
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 5:32am

Views: 1415

Battle of 5 armies

Don't forget this- it will be huge. gory and violent.

Hobbit firster, Book firster.

Have you explored all of TORN's forums?

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Oct 8 2012, 6:00am

Views: 1280

My hope is that they are reasonable and not excessive.

Lots of children will be seeing these movies, and considering the book they were based on, that is as it should be. I think the level of gore found in, say, The Avengers might be a good model. Lots of crunch and slash, but without lingering long enough for things to become genuinely gory. I would hope they would, especially for the first movie (perhaps for the first two), stay away from anything as wrenchingly graphic as the confrontation between Aragorn and Lurtz.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea

Oct 8 2012, 7:02am

Views: 1141

Well

I´m not shure, I feel that when we will get violence on movies there will be violence the same way than LOTR, it is humor that I feel is gonna be brighter than LOTR.
By the way, when we will see the EE extras in cronologycal order PJ and Co are gonna get younger and younger!(nosense thought)

I can not guarantee his safety - understood...
Nor will I be responsible for his fate - Doh!

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 7:06am

Views: 1191

I can't imagine the level of violence will be any different

You have Bolg - a very grotesque looking a Orc whose job is to torture. You have the Battle of the Five Armies - full of blood, gore and guts. Azog and Thror. The Necromancer and all his necromancy. Trolls that want to squash the Dwarves into jelly. Beorn who puts a Goblin head on a spike.

And many more examples that I've missed!

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Joe20
Lorien

Oct 8 2012, 7:16am

Views: 1156

No question there will be a lot of action in battles etc

...its just how will that violence be portrayed. Will it be done with a lot of blood and guts, as in LOTR, or will they perhaps move away from that and present it like something you would see in one of the Narnia films?

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 7:23am

Views: 1158

There won't be any blood and guts shooting out

As otherwise the rating would be pushed up. There will still be plenty of physical violence though - such as beheading and branding.

It's been a while since I've watched the 3 Narnia films - but I don't recall much physical violence. There's battles and sword fights, but never any beheading or arms being cut off?

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Joe20
Lorien

Oct 8 2012, 10:50am

Views: 1015

I've only seen the first one

...and a bit of the second, so i'm not the biggest expert haha. But it just lacks that gritty realism that we find in LOTR, at least I think. I would hate for the Hobbit to feature that sort of fantastical warfare. ...Even though its a fantasy novel Tongue

I just hope they strive for that reality, that PJ and Co. talk about on behind the scenes of the dvd's.

Hanzkaz
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 1:27pm

Views: 1004

Going by the trailer (some spoilers) -

- there will certainly be violence and death.

Most likely, there won't be any death amongst the 'good guys' - including minor characters - (apart from flashbacks) at first, but there should be evidence that Middle-Earth is a world where violent death is not uncommon (Gollum's cave and the Troll's lair may be shown to contain the remains of past victims).

In the first movie, some of the bad guys may be dealt with in ways that don't involve dismemberment (stabbing, throwing from a high place, bludgeoning -or setting on fire, etc). Later as the story gets darker (and Bilbo himself becomes more of a warrior) we will see LOTR-style battles.

For a 'children's book' , there is a lot violence in the Hobbit. Between Smaug who causes tremendous loss of life amongst the people of Erebor, Dale and Lake-Town, the devastation of the Battle of Five Armies and the Dwarf-Orc War, the on-screen death toll has the potential to rival or even surpass that of the Lord of the Rings movies..

easterlingchief1
Rivendell

Oct 8 2012, 1:33pm

Views: 935

There will probably be little moments of gore interspersed throughout the action

I think the level of violence will be on the same level as the Trilogy. That is to say, I think there will be moments of slight gore interspersed throughout the relatively bloodless but exhilarating action scenes.

If you slow down the second trailer (around the part where Thorin's VO is going on about "I would take these dwarves over any army") you'll see an example go what I mean. Whiel the wares are running through Golbintown, One of the dwarves (Ori, I think, based on the hair) disarms a Golbin who is menacing them with a sword. Then Gloin runs past and gives the same Golbin a good WHACK in the face with his pole arm. If you look at the last few frames, there is a small spurt of black blood coming out of the Goblin's face (he's not facing camera).

The moment reminded me of the moment in Fellowship where Aragorn decapitated the Moria Goblin in Balin's tomb. You can just barely see it if you're watching it at full speed. If you slow the film down, it's actually a pretty graphic moment. But because it's edited in with all the chaos of the battle, your mind only subconsciously registers it when you see it for the first time.

Spaldron
Rivendell

Oct 8 2012, 2:38pm

Views: 1009

Aragron's decapitations.

Quote

The moment reminded me of the moment in Fellowship where Aragorn decapitated the Moria Goblin in Balin's tomb. You can just barely see it if you're watching it at full speed. If you slow the film down, it's actually a pretty graphic moment. But because it's edited in with all the chaos of the battle, your mind only subconsciously registers it when you see it for the first time.

One of the long running gags in LOTR was Aragorn's favourite method of dispatching Ocs, namely chopping the old noggin off. Laugh

He does it at least five or six times during the trilogy.

Makes me wonder if PJ will throw in a similar gag for The Hobbit. Perhaps Thorin or Dwalin will have a signature kill?

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."

GoodGuyA
Lorien

Oct 8 2012, 3:04pm

Views: 871

Toning down the action would be a shame

I think people really forget about how absolutely grand an visceral the fighting in LotR was, instead just focusing on the cheesy moments. But all the times you see them battle orcs, it gets incredibly tense and brutal. The stunt and camera work in those films for the action alone deserves an Oscar! Wink

I want to see rough and gruff fighting all the way. It's PG-13 still for a reason, people! Let's see some eviscerations!

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 3:10pm

Views: 850

I've never noticed before! I'll look out for them next time :-) /

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DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 3:11pm

Views: 880

The Gandalf-Galadriel love scene might push the film to an 18

You might be in luck for some rough and gruff! /

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painjoiker
Grey Havens

Oct 8 2012, 4:13pm

Views: 831

It's not funny anymore! :P //

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse

Elenorflower
Gondor

Oct 8 2012, 4:21pm

Views: 828

from the look

of the Goblins, I am getting quite a strong sense of 'horror' genre. They look pretty gruesome and scary. I think the scenes in the Goblins caves will be quite intense and violent. I also think the warg sequence and the spider sequence will be violent too. i think the Troll sequence may be less so and be 'funnier' but this is just supposition.

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 4:21pm

Views: 847

It was never funny...

It was beyond disturbing. Tongue

At least PJ can't mess it up *that* badly!

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painjoiker
Grey Havens

Oct 8 2012, 6:01pm

Views: 799

"Tell me where is Gandalf, for I much desire to speak with him"

I just saw FotR, and when Celeborn said that line, everything that came to mind was "Hmm, he may have discovered the truth" then realizing how much you, DLB, have screwed with my mind...
The Internet have ruined the movies for me!
"One does not simply walk into mordor"...
*cry, cry, cry*

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 6:11pm

Views: 802

Whatever you do, don't google image "Legolas & Haldir" ...

Your life will never be the same again.

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 8 2012, 6:11pm)

painjoiker
Grey Havens

Oct 8 2012, 7:09pm

Views: 706

Why am I laughing?! //

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 7:24pm

Views: 678

You have to laugh, otherwise you'll gouge your eyes out! :-D /

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painjoiker
Grey Havens

Oct 8 2012, 7:28pm

Views: 671

You know what they say,

Laughter is the best medicine Wink

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse

Bombadil
Half-elven

Oct 8 2012, 7:45pm

Views: 685

The Only Guts I Remember was When

" Meats back on the Menu Boys"
Edge of Fangorn.
Looked like an Intestine flew into air
as they butchered him
Out of Frame.
Quickly cut away to M&P crawling away.

Other places the implyed Gore was
Just out of Sight.
I remember PJ saying that they descided to keep
Blood spurting.. to a minium.

(This post was edited by Bombadil on Oct 8 2012, 7:47pm)

Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 8 2012, 7:58pm

Views: 687

I was thinking about this the other day (well sort of)

There seem to me to be some quite scary creatures knocking about in the current films. I wonder slightly if we will see some differences in tone (and to an extent, innocence) within different strands of the story.

By this I mean that I wonder if Bilbo's somewhat more innocent perspective on his adventure (as presented in TH) might be shown within a slightly darker world as seen by others such as Gandalf (perhaps more akin to the ME of LOTR).

Thus we, as the audience, might see more of the scarier elements of the tale, whilst our protagonist might, in some ways, be sheilded from them.

LR

Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 9:38pm

Views: 555

The censors won't give a film a higher clasifcation

because it includes ugly little freaks with buck teeth and excessive ear hair (otherwise Tom Cruse films would never be shown in the UK).

They will give a film a higher classification if it includes beheading though.

It actually make sense to go for a lower classification on film 1 than films 2 and 3, since children who enjoyed the first film will be a year older by the time the next one comes out.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 8 2012, 9:53pm

Views: 558

Does that really make a difference?

In Reply To

It actually make sense to go for a lower classification on film 1 than films 2 and 3, since children who enjoyed the first film will be a year older by the time the next one comes out.

The classifications are 12, 15 and 18. They couldn't increase TABA to 15 after 1.5 years.

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Carne
Tol Eressea

Oct 8 2012, 10:15pm

Views: 563

Really depends on what is beheaded

LOTR got away with a PG-13 rating because orcs don't count as human, and whenever there's blood coming from a creature it's usually black, so it doesn't count as blood.

I remember Empire doing an interview with PJ and Del Toro where they both said they were aiming at a hard PG-13 (ala LOTR). I don't think that has changed so I think we can expect more flying heads and limbs.

In Norway it's rated 11 which is about the same as a PG-13.

(This post was edited by Carne on Oct 8 2012, 10:18pm)

Túrin_Turambar
The Shire

Oct 8 2012, 10:44pm

Views: 538

There was that scene in ROTK when the orcs catapulted the human heads into Gondor

I thought that was one of the "gorier" scenes of the trilogy, but perhaps this doesn't strictly count as "beheading" as we don't actually witness the decapitation process.

Carne
Tol Eressea

Oct 8 2012, 10:48pm

Views: 493

Correct

And we only see dried blood.

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Oct 9 2012, 2:41am

Views: 483

Some of that was pretty graphic. There were moments when I wondered if

the studios had paid off the board to get that rating, considering the Lurtz scene. Then I remembered where I live, and how only harmless nudity is wicked, while gruesome violence is welcomed with open arms. Crazy

Lots of orc heads, and not a shot of Arwen's lovely bum. Lol. Oh well.

I really don't see that a flying head is any better than flying guts. And orcs are certainly humanoid, even if they are not human. I hope the violence is reasonably visceral in effect, but not blatantly gruesome. And what happened to Lurtz was kinda gruesome. The Battle of The Last Alliance, I thought, was presented in a way that would be pitch perfect for The Hobbit, especially for the first film. Gritty, hard hitting, but not gory/ filled with dismemberment.

In Reply To

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 9 2012, 7:06am

Views: 442

Is this really true?

If it's black, it doesn't count as blood? Unimpressed

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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator

Oct 9 2012, 8:25am

Views: 438

Yes, at least...

it doesn't count as "real" blood, just fantasy blood, so it doesn't spike the gore meter as much.

A rating generally comes with a short listing of reasons which indicates what sort of issues merited the rating. For instance, ROTK was rated PG-13 for "intense epic battle scenes and frightening images", while other types of movies might get the same rating for swearing, "adult themes", drug/alcohol references, etc. It also depends on quantity: The King's Speech got its R rating purely on the repetition of swear words. It's an odd system in many ways.

Silverlode

Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 9 2012, 8:40am

Views: 439

The King's Speech is a 12 in the UK

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 9 2012, 9:27am

Views: 434

That just seems very odd to me.

Surely blood is blood, whether it's red, black or blue? Silly classification system!

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Tim
Tol Eressea

Oct 9 2012, 2:23pm

Views: 397

Eh, I can see the logic

There's less realism in black blood. Heck, there's less realism in obviously fake red blood - less realism means less immersion. The kids can tell its fake, it doesn't hit the "ick" meter nearly as hard.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?

Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.

DanielLB
Immortal

Oct 9 2012, 3:37pm

Views: 376

This is true ...

Suppose it makes some kind of sense. Would the Saw films have been a PG then if the blood had been green. Wink

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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator

Oct 9 2012, 11:44pm

Views: 346

Nah.

They'd still have the "violence, frightening images and scary situations" categories to throw at it.

It's not a terribly good system for actually telling you what age people should be to watch a movie, but it can give you a little advance notice of what sort of objectionable material might be encountered, which is helpful if, for instance, you don't mind bad language or nudity but don't want to watch gore and violence, or vice versa. Of course, that's what complicates it - not everyone finds the same things objectionable, so the ratings board just objects to everything and then lets the audience sort itself out. Wink

Silverlode

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Oct 10 2012, 12:14am

Views: 372

Its a butt backwards dumb system, in many ways.

Ohh, so many silly, Victorian ways. lol

In Reply To

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Oct 10 2012, 12:17am

Views: 361

Because in the UK there is more common sense weighting about

what is corruptive and traumatic and what is not. There, beheadings = very bad, swears are taken in stride and buttocks are understood to be things that everyone has and knows the look of.

Where I live, sady, beheadings are cheer fodder, swears are heavily scrutinized (at least by the ratings boards) and buttocks can evidently make you go blind from their high sin content. lol

In Reply To

Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 10 2012, 6:36am

Views: 349

Oh, there can be a lack of common sense in the UK too.

The BBFC is very literal. If you actually show beheadings and blood you get a high rating, but implied violence, which can be argued to be more disturbing, since the images are formed in your head, is passed without comment.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

AinurOlorin
Half-elven

Oct 11 2012, 9:15pm

Views: 439

I hear you, but that makes so much more sense, even with its flaws, than

the way things are handled here in my, dear, U.S.A.