The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Benedict Cumberbatch on The Necromancer



Oleander Took
Rivendell


Oct 7 2012, 7:58pm


Views: 4481
Benedict Cumberbatch on The Necromancer

Seems we can finally confirm that he will be both giving him his voice AND Mo-capping him.

Yesterday he had an interview at The 2012 Cheltenham Literature Festival about Sherlock and he talked briefly about several other works including The Hobbit.

According to Sherlockology's (main Sherlock fan website) report this is what he said:

"- First news that Benedict has performed motion capture for The Necromancer in The Hobbit trilogy - previously it was only stated that he was voicing the character.
This emerged from an expression of his frustration that most media outlets report that he is only providing the voice for Smaug the dragon in the films, whereas he will actually portray the entire physical onscreen performance for the gigantic creature through motion capture, which he performed during an intense couple of days of work in New Zealand earlier in the year."

Source http://www.sherlockology.com/...am-festival-07102012

This interview was recorded by Sky Arts, no airing date though

"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something."


Carne
Tol Eressea

Oct 7 2012, 8:01pm


Views: 2258
What about Nathaniel Lees?

Guess he's either out or plays another role.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 7 2012, 8:03pm


Views: 2121
I thought it was common knowledge he was mo-capping Smaug?

He said an interview a while back about slinking across the floor? I'll try and dig it up. Strange he got "frustrated".

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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Oct 7 2012, 8:09pm


Views: 2092
It is among us, but media only mentions the voice acting part.

"...Benedict Cumberbatch, who will voice Smaug the dragon in the Hobbit, a prequel to the Lord of the Rings trilogy..." etc etc. It annoys me too. Seems like Benny will have to fight for his full credit, just like Andy has had to.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Oct 7 2012, 8:10pm


Views: 2175
Perhaps they re-learned you can't separate the body and the voice?

No sense to make two different actors act the same character, if it doesn't serve any story/artistic purpose.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 7 2012, 8:13pm


Views: 2117
The media always mess up/fail to research properly ...

I can see how it would get annoying. Frown

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Oleander Took
Rivendell


Oct 7 2012, 8:20pm


Views: 2026
Absolutely

Just last week i saw a couple of articles where they had just learnt he was in The Hobbit. Just last week.... Hope he gets a proper promotion for DoS

"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something."


jtarkey
Rohan

Oct 7 2012, 8:24pm


Views: 2051
Hmm...

I still don't really understand why they would have him mo-cap Smaug. I understand the benefits of doing it if you're creating a creature with a human form (King Kong, Gollum). But a Dragon? How is that supposed to help make the dragon more realistic? I remember watching the special features on Jurassic Park, and they studied the ways birds and different animals move in order to get the dinosaurs right. Seemed to work pretty well.

I'm sure I'm just ignorant as to how this sort of thing works, I'm just interested to see how they'll do it. Will Smaug have four long and slender limbs like a person?


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 7 2012, 8:37pm


Views: 2044
I imagine a large part of the mo-capping is around the face

They'll want to get the facial expressions spot on.

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Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 7 2012, 8:48pm


Views: 2031
Catch Dragonheart

Now, that's so old, I don't think it was actually mo-capped, the animators just matched the CGI dragon to the actor's face. But that dragon is still physically recognisable as Sean Connnery.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 7 2012, 9:48pm


Views: 1896
We dubbed them "neekerbreekers"

during the run-up to the LOTR films, because poorly-researched articles were everywhere. What do they do when they can't get Hobbit? Wink

Silverlode






Baggins Babe
Registered User

Oct 7 2012, 10:00pm


Views: 1930
There was a newspaper article last December....

....which said that Peter Jackson (and Ian McKellen) were so impressed with Benedict's audition tape that it was decided to do it as motion capture rather than just the voice. Apparently he had been studying snakes and komodo dragons at London Zoo and "....went a little reptile on it..."

I can't wait!

"It was said to me by Elrond Halfelven that I should find friendship upon the way, secret and unlooked for. To have found it turns evil to great good."

***************************************
I used to have a handle on life - but it fell off.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 7 2012, 10:09pm


Views: 1923
Lees probably had the part until they got a better known actor...

After cutting half of his performance as Ugluk from the theatrical edition (and wasn't he originally supposed to survive to be one of the Uruk-Hai fighting Eowyn in the glittering caves?), that would seem quite crappy if true.

I hope they've at least given him another role, which is possible given all the cast reshuffling.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Oct 7 2012, 10:10pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 7 2012, 10:25pm


Views: 1881
first of all

I think its weird that a human could mo-cap for a dragon, surely the movements are completely different? Last time I met a dragon he was not flapping about in a long overcoat with the collar turned up. and secondly Cumberbutch gives his snippy soundbites to the press about how much he hasnt a cluuuuuuuue whats going on, and now he is all of a sudden 'frustrated' when they dont get their facts straight. hmmmmmm! poor luvvy.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Oct 7 2012, 10:30pm


Views: 1957
Sauron in a physical form?

If "Benedict has performed motion capture for The Necromancer in The Hobbit trilogy"... and it seems to be that way, we will see a kind of physical appearance of Sauron in The Hobbit. That meens he'll be there "in person" not just a spirit without a body. We'll not just hear his voice, we actually will see him and that makes it interesting. Great news!!

I also think it is kind of strange that Smaug and Sauron are played and voiced by the same guy. I love Benedict! He's a great actor and has a great voice, and sure he got the parts because of his voice BUT Smaug and Sauron won't have the same voice what means, that either Saurons or Smaugs voice by Cumberbatch will be highly changed. Question: Why didn't they just took another actor? Or are they going to have a similar voice and that's why one actor plays both parts? Or is Sauron going to speak with Smaugs voice to frighten/unsettle his enemies?


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 7 2012, 10:35pm


Views: 1939
Visible isn't necessarily physical

It may be worth making the point.

I'm not sure the fact he is voicing two characters tells us any more than that.

LR


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 7 2012, 10:40pm


Views: 1871
if its not physical

it wont be visible. if its visible it has to be physical or its just spooky. Crazy


stoutfiles
Rohan

Oct 7 2012, 10:52pm


Views: 1843
John Rhys-Davies voiced Gimli and Treebeard

And it was fine. I'm pretty critical about some things I've seen so far, but the voice acting is the least of my concerns. The Necromancer and Smaug will not sound the same, they will make alterations.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 7 2012, 10:59pm


Views: 1836
Not sure I follow

Why does visible have to be "physical" (in the sense of possessing a physical body)?

There are several of Tolkien's characters who would not conform to this idea, at least in their trilogy film portrayals (Nazgul - both in the shadow world and ME, Sauron, Army of the Dead)

LR


Oleander Took
Rivendell


Oct 7 2012, 11:27pm


Views: 1932
Updated Quote

From http://www.benedictcumberbatch.co.uk/benedict-cumberbatch-and-louise-brealey-discuss-sherlock-at-cheltenham-literary-festival/

"On playing Smaug. Does it get really hot and sweaty in the motion capture suit?

It does, it does its a brilliant thing to do. Motion Capture is the most ridiculously fun thing to do as an actor. Youre utterly utterly free to do what you want as an actor especially as Im a reptile and not a mammal and so there are things that arent quite possible such as a tail and wings. It was such good fun. It was just as good fun as doing the voice.
What is so frustrating is some publicist who wanted to get my business in the US released this thing saying that I was voicing Smaug and its followed me around everywhere. Im doing the movements! I worked for two days solid doing the motion capture for those scenes and Im voicing it as well. And I did the motion capture for the Necromancer as well."

"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something."


EyeRock
Bree


Oct 7 2012, 11:34pm


Views: 1805
Fun fact

The banshees in avatar (also done by weta) were motion-captured by Terry Notary; the Hobbit's movement choreographer.
They do not capture the motions of a tail, wings or an elongated neck which will be added and animated later on, but the weight, physical expression and energy of the actor serves as a base for the rest of the animation process and helps the animators giving soul to the final character or creature we see on screen.

The trained body of an actor is capable of extraordinary feats, and creatures that are motion-captured benefits greatly from the sense of gravity the performers give them.
WHile watching Rise of the Planet of the Apes it astounded me how the apes that were 100% key-frame animated looked so much faker than the ones played by actors.

I am maybe a bit biased as I have a huge passion for this use of technology and physical acting, but I have no doubt that a mo-capped Smaug will look ten times better than a fully animated one.


(This post was edited by EyeRock on Oct 7 2012, 11:38pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 7 2012, 11:46pm


Views: 1836
I didnt mean physical as in

having a body, but physically visible, even the Nazgul needed physical robes to take shape otherwise they were invisible.
Wink


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 12:25am


Views: 1842
Nathaniel Lees voicing Necromancer?

Cumberbatch isn't clear about whether he is acually voicing the Necromancer. Perhaps he is only doing motion capture for that role with Lees providing the Necromancer's voice.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 8 2012, 1:05am


Views: 1716
Perhaps

it's because, despite them both being reptiles, dinosaurs and dragons are very different. It would make sense to study birds and animals for dinosaurs. But dragons are majestic, fantastic and glorious. To have the dragon mo-capped makes sense because he will move in a more glorious and, for want of a better word, graceful way, something dinosaurs don't do.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 8 2012, 1:09am


Views: 1738
I'm thinking

they will probably use a vocoder to make the voices sounds different. Smaug might have a more rumbly sound, and the Necromancer might have a hissy and ethereal and eerie sound to the voice.


Eye's on Guard
Lorien


Oct 8 2012, 1:33am


Views: 1512
Well, here's one bold guess...

Smaug the Necromancer


In Reply To
If "Benedict has performed motion capture for The Necromancer in The Hobbit trilogy"... and it seems to be that way, we will see a kind of physical appearance of Sauron in The Hobbit. That meens he'll be there "in person" not just a spirit without a body. We'll not just hear his voice, we actually will see him and that makes it interesting. Great news!!

I also think it is kind of strange that Smaug and Sauron are played and voiced by the same guy. I love Benedict! He's a great actor and has a great voice, and sure he got the parts because of his voice BUT Smaug and Sauron won't have the same voice what means, that either Saurons or Smaugs voice by Cumberbatch will be highly changed. Question: Why didn't they just took another actor? Or are they going to have a similar voice and that's why one actor plays both parts? Or is Sauron going to speak with Smaugs voice to frighten/unsettle his enemies?



Finrod
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 1:47am


Views: 1459
On animals


In Reply To
it's because, despite them both being reptiles, dinosaurs and dragons are very different. It would make sense to study birds and animals for dinosaurs. But dragons are majestic, fantastic and glorious. To have the dragon mo-capped makes sense because he will move in a more glorious and, for want of a better word, graceful way, something dinosaurs don't do.


Last I checked, birds actually are animals.

As for dinosaurs, I dont see why they would not have been graceful. After all, the surviving ones certainly can be.

They can also be very frightening. Just have an ostrich stare you in the face from a couple feet away, and hope he likes you.

I doubt Komodo dragons are much like dinosaurs, by the way. Dinosaurs werent lizards any more than an ostrich is a lizard.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 2:48am


Views: 1403
Not to mention I'd expect they'd be majestic, fantastic and glorious!

The difference IMO, is that the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park were in fact portrayed as animals...Smaug is a character who has to display an intelligence similar to that of Man, not to mention probably being visibly articulate (meaning I don't think they'd go with a telepathic approach ALA Eragon). It's the same reason why the Necromancer, Gollum and the Goblin King are mo-cap, while the Wargs, Mukakil, Fell Beasts ETC were not.

I wonder if the Stone Trolls were mo-capped...one would assume so. However, I have no idea why the Avatar Banshees or something similar would make use of the process...that just seems like over-doing, IMO.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 3:15am


Views: 1437
I have a theory

That the cast role for Lees as "voice of the Necromancer" has been misinterpreted (or deliberately obscured.) I think Lees is playing the Mouth of Sauron, but they can't call him the Mouth of Sauron because we aren't supposed to know that it's Sauron, yet. Thus it should read "Voice of the Necromancer."

Original speculation here. Note that the helmet of Bruce Spence's Mouth of Sauron costume was inscribed with the Sindarin "lammen gorthaur," which is, literally "Voice of the Necromancer."

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Oct 8 2012, 4:24am


Views: 1381
That seems... Even more pointless then some of the other cameos

I must admit, I'm a bit of a fan of the Mouth of Sauron. Just that great description from Tolkien of how he was once a man but then became twisted. The design in the film was one of the coolest armor designs I've ever seen, and it was such a short scene that they went to so much trouble to film. It only wound up in the Extended Edition though, so I don't see the purpose of trying to bridge that gap, especially since his purpose is literally moot in the film when reinserted. A lot of trouble for little payoff, even if it was just a small piece.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 7:11am


Views: 1481
Mo-capping the Necromancer

A lot of the "creatures" in The Hobbit seem to be CGI, in comparison to the LOTR trilogy. I'm happy for the Necromancer to be mo-capped *if* he doesn't have a humanoid form. If it's just a man in a some armour, they shouldn't have gone for CGI.

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Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 7:34am


Views: 1351
Dinosaurs aren't reptiles

They are dinosaurs.

And one of the most distinct differences is in how they move.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 7:42am


Views: 1376
Who voiced the Mouth of Sauron

I know Bruce Spence was in the costume, but did he also provide the voice? I can't seem to recall anything, and google doesn't come up with anything helpful?

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redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 9:50am


Views: 1361
MoS

I'm pretty sure it was Bruce Spence who voiced him as well. I think they just manipulated the audio to make it sound different. I don't see why they would go through the trouble of having him play the Mouth of Sauron and yet not have his voice included in the film when they could have just stuck the "real" voice in the role. So I'm pretty sure it was Spence's voice.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 12:37pm


Views: 1349
Voice

I watched the scene recently for the first time. I had seen pics of the character, but I couldn't recall him from the theatrical release and had no idea that it was Spence. In the scene, I can just barely make out that it's him. I'm pretty certain it's his voice, albeit altered almost as much as his features. He uses an accent, and they have heavy effects on it.

They also have the mouth itself (which appears to be an attempt at exaggerating one of Spence's most distinguishing features) motion-altered to creepily accentuate the act of speaking. I may be misinterpreting, but it seemed to me they were trying to produce the effect that the words were coming from elsewhere, as if Sauron were actually speaking directly through the warped man (and I wonder if this is the origin of the rumored scene of Aragorn actually fighting Sauron at the gate.) All things considered, I think they should have left the scene in.

GoedGuyA's point of "why bother" is taken. However, I think the character as depicted has the creepy, almost Clive Barker aura that Jackson will be shooting for with the Dol Guldur content (Yazneg has the same feel, to me ). I also have a feeling we won't be seeing a single incarnation of the Necromancer (which would raise the issue of why doesn't he take form in LotR) but various "aspects" of him, and I think the Mouth may fit into such a scheme..

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


dave_lf
Gondor

Oct 8 2012, 12:51pm


Views: 1362
Dinosaurs (subset of) Reptiles

Dinosaurs are reptiles. Dinosauria is a clade under class Reptilia (which is simply the catch-all class for amniotes that are neither mammals nor birds).

Edit: TORN doesn't like the "subset of" symbol.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Oct 8 2012, 12:51pm)


Spaldron
Rivendell


Oct 8 2012, 2:28pm


Views: 1274
Mouth of Sauron


Quote
I know Bruce Spence was in the costume, but did he also provide the voice? I can't seem to recall anything, and google doesn't come up with anything helpful?


I'm pretty sure it isn't Spence's voice, even manipulated. The accents and vocal rhythms are completely different to his own voice which btw you can hear his original voice on the EE Appendices Disc 2.

MoS voice has kind of an Eastern European accent to it imo.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Spaldron
Rivendell


Oct 8 2012, 2:30pm


Views: 1355
Spence's Gob.


Quote
They also have the mouth itself (which appears to be an attempt at exaggerating one of Spence's most distinguishing features) motion-altered to creepily accentuate the act of speaking.


They simply enlarged the Mouth to make it look just an extra bit scarier. At one point they had the Mouth sideways in post-production.

I also like the "Voice of the Necromancer." theory.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."

(This post was edited by Spaldron on Oct 8 2012, 2:31pm)


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 3:11pm


Views: 1243
It occurs to me

That Lees also has the advantage of bearing an uncanny resemblance to former incarnation of the character...



Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 3:13pm


Views: 1288
That's because the classification system is seriously out of date.

Modern research points to dinosaurs having very little in common with modern reptiles.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 3:15pm


Views: 1256
Spooky! /

 

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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 4:15pm


Views: 1205
That's correct, Dinosaurs are now largely considered to be neither reptiles nor birds, but their own specific clade inbetween. //

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 4:19pm


Views: 1219
If they're bringing Bret McKenzie back, I don't see why they wouldn't bring Bruce Spence back...?

Though Lees does look eerily similar to the animated MoS in that pic.

However, it seems that the Necromancer will appear in some physical form, as otherwise why would BC being providing mo-cap for it? So, when Sauron was a flaming eyeball, it made sense for him to have an intermediary through which he could communicate with others...but if the Necro has taken form in TH, why would he need someone to articulate his will for him?

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Oct 8 2012, 4:21pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 4:20pm


Views: 1211
It sounded like Spence to me...to quote the exchange between Liv and Steven Tyler...

Steven: Who's voice is that?

Liv: It's mine. I'm an actress!

Of course, that last part would have to be slightly modified in Bruce's case. Wink

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


dave_lf
Gondor

Oct 8 2012, 5:13pm


Views: 1215
Reptile = bad category

Well; if the classification system were to be revised, then we'd probably need to get rid of the concept of reptiles altogether since it is phylogenetically incoherent.

But until someone does that, dinosaurs are still officially reptiles.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Oct 8 2012, 5:16pm)


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 5:41pm


Views: 1164
In fact :

All dinosaurs are reptiles, and all birds are dinosaurs, if you class them phylogenetically. The other way around doesn't work though.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 6:29pm


Views: 1150
Well most scientists now admit that dinosaurs are distinct enough

from reptiles to qualify as their own class. You don't see many warm-blooded, highly active reptiles covered in proto-feathers. And remember, reptiles co-existed and out-lived their dinosaur contemporaries, and always exhibited largely different appearance and behavior. Yes, they're still categorized as "reptiles", but as mentioned above, the system's out of date.

And technically, birds are descendants from a branch of dinosauria, namely family dromaeosauridae.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Oct 8 2012, 6:31pm)


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 6:39pm


Views: 1174
There is two schools of classification.

You either class from origins, or from ressemblance, but you can't mix them. It doesn't matter that dinosaur don't look like their cousins, they are from the same familly.


Finrod
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 7:14pm


Views: 1161
Reptilian birds

Since all birds are dinosaurs and all dinosaurs are reptiles, it necessarily follows that all birds are reptiles.

Whoda thunk? Guess you really do learn something new every day!

And for my next trick, well prove that gerbils are goldfish.

…all eyes looked upon the ring; for he held it now aloft, and the green jewels gleamed there that the Noldor had devised in Valinor. For this ring was like to twin serpents, whose eyes were emeralds, and their heads met beneath a crown of golden flowers, that the one upheld and the other devoured; that was the badge of Finarfin and his house.
The Silmarillion, pp 150-151
while Felagund laughs beneath the trees
in Valinor and comes no more
to this grey world of tears and war.
The Lays of Beleriand, p 311




dave_lf
Gondor

Oct 8 2012, 7:27pm


Views: 1135
That is precisely why "reptile" is a bad category

A hypothetical phylogeny-based classification system would have a class for Amniotes and under that would be mammals, crocodiles, turtles, snakes, lizards, the two dinosaur groups, and several others as (roughly) equal siblings. Birds would go under one of the dinosaur groups.

Strictly speaking, the answer to that (apparent) contradiction is that under the existing classification system, it's true that all birds are descended from reptiles, but it's not true that they are reptiles.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Oct 8 2012, 7:29pm)


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 8:09pm


Views: 1208
And that's what Benedict Cumberbatch

meant when he said that preparing to play smaug, he trained himself to move in a reptilian way.
Before his trip to New Zealande, he's been witnessed several time trying to look like a dodo bird.


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Oct 8 2012, 9:00pm


Views: 1189
Am I the only one looking forward to the making of's?

"From Human to Reptilian" :D

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 8 2012, 9:19pm


Views: 1172
I *love* the making-ofs!

I feel gypped when a movie's DVD extras are thin on the ground. (I'm looking at you, The Avengers.)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Saurons master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 8 2012, 9:22pm


Views: 1151
I find them a bit repitilative

They get under my scales.

Wink

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Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 9:22pm


Views: 1152
Smaug, as drawn by Tolkien

has four legs on the side of his body, similar to lizards and crocodiles (if you ignore the wings), but unlike dinosaurs.

But I expect what Cumberbach is talking about is the way lizards and snakes remain very still, and make very deliberate movements, with sudden bursts of speed. (Mammals, in comparison, tend to be more twitchy).

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Ereinion Nnharma
Lorien

Oct 8 2012, 9:23pm


Views: 1194
Rumoured...?

''and I wonder if this is the origin of the rumored scene of Aragorn actually fighting Sauron at the gate''

That's not just a rumour. Just search on Youtube, the Aragorn vs. Sauron scene is real!

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 9:53pm


Views: 1137
I still don't think

its great to Mo-cap a man who walks on 2 legs upright, to play a beast who walks on all fours. i know mo-cap can do some great things but IMO they should have tried mo-caping birds (for flight) and reptiles (for natural movements) as apposed to a human being. I understand maybe mo-caping the face to get the expressions of the actor in the character but I think they should have tried motion capturing something that naturally walks on 4 legs. Monitor Lizards would have been perfect to mo-cap for a dragon actually (I've had 2 myself) if raised properly they are very docile and could be photographed in a miniature structure to give the computer artists some scale if need be. But Who knows it might work using a man who walks naturally on 2 legs upright instead of something a bit more natural on 4 legs.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 8 2012, 10:15pm


Views: 1136
"Whose", not "who's" I meant!

"Who is voice is that"? Bah humbug! Laugh

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 11:22pm


Views: 1138
By golly

So that's where that glowy angel figure comes from. Shows what I know about the movies.

If they wanted an Aragorn confrontation at the gate, I'm not sure why they didn't just keep the mind-duel between him and the Mouth (instead of another pop-top beheading.)

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 11:39pm


Views: 1099
As Smaug will be lying on his pile of gold

it doesn't really matter if he walks on four legs. Anyway, they're not forced to keep everything the mo-capped, and they can transform it at will, they just got something more to work with. It seems to be a strictly positive thing.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 8 2012, 11:45pm


Views: 1124
That's not the actual footage

It's just Sauron from the prologue poorly edited back into the troll's place. The footage as it was actually shot should show Sauron as Annatar, not Sauron from the prologue.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Ereinion Nnharma
Lorien

Oct 9 2012, 7:20am


Views: 1038
Wrong...

There are clearly some shots which are not in the prologue and show Aragorn fighting Sauron. Even PJ admitted that they shot these scenes!

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 9 2012, 7:23am


Views: 1089
You'll enjoy this

Link

Sauron at 2.19 and 2.29.

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 9 2012, 7:25am)


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 9 2012, 7:25am


Views: 1054
It's very unlikey we will see Smaug doing much walking

In his big scene with Bilbo, he is just lying on his treasure, rolls over, moves his head to try and find the hobbit.

The rest of the time, he will be flying, and will probably be just down to the animators.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Oct 9 2012, 2:13pm


Views: 1036
It's not poorly edited...

It's PJ & co mirroring the prologue with the Aragorn vs. Sauron fight ;)

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 9 2012, 4:05pm


Views: 1241
!!

Wow! I guess I spaced out for that part of the special feature. Ultimately I'm still glad they got rid of it..the fight is a little underwhelming. Maybe it's just because I'm watching it out of the context of the rest of the battle.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951