The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
My guess: Desolation of Smaug "where the action is"



macfalk
Valinor


Oct 5 2012, 4:34pm


Views: 3065
My guess: Desolation of Smaug "where the action is"

Thinking about it, there is SO much going on from the Eagle rescue to Smaug's death - that whole passage in the story easily warrants a good 2-3 hours of it's own, even without White Council/flashback material. In fact, with added White Council, I bet DOS will be around 3 hours long. And we don't even know for sure if it's going to end with the demise of Smaug! Even if it would end, let's say, around where Smaug leaves The Lonely Mountain and Bilbo & company starts looting the treasure, we have loads of material to cover:

1. Eagle-rescue aftermath
2. Beorn!
3. Farewell to Beorn - edge of Mirkwood
4. The whole Mirkwood passage, the river drama, the starvation, etc.
5. Dwarves captured, introduction of wood-elves culture, and Legolas, Thranduil and Tauriel.
6. Barrels out of Bond.
7. Arrival to Laketown
8. Introduction of Laketown culture and the Master, Bard and Alfrid.
9. Farewell to Laketown, into the "desolation"
10. Scouting the area, eventually finding the secret entrance.
11. Bilbo seeing Smaug for the first time, stealing a cup.
12. Smaug's wrath
13. Bilbo's second meeting in which he is spotted and has a long conversation with Smaug.
14. Smaug leaving the Lonely Mountain.
15. Bilbo & dwarves starts going through all the treasure and exploring the mountain.
16. Smaug attacking Laketown.
17. Smaug dies.



+

? White Council errands
? Radagast
? Dwarven flashbacks


The way I see it, the real "meat" of the story probably takes place in DOS, and not AUJ or TABA. Granted, some of this is speculation as we don't know for certain when it will end, or how much sideplot is going to take place, but still!



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 5:00pm


Views: 1775
And no so much action afterwards !

That's why I think Smaug's death will be in film three. But there is no way to be sure, we're too far from that movie....


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2012, 5:07pm


Views: 1670
Agreed DoS will have much more going on than AUJ...however, based on what we know, I'd see something more akin to this unfolding:

The Desolation of Smaug

1. Plotting of the Orcs/Goblins, Thorin & Co. head for Beorn's house.
2. Beorn!
3. Farewell to Beorn - edge of Mirkwood
4.
Gandalf's investigations of the Necromancer with Raddy, Beorn, Leggy/Tauriel (including a meeting of the FULL White Council)?
5. Thorin & Co. stalked through film by Fimbul the Hunter and Azog's forces
6. The whole Mirkwood passage, the river drama, the starvation, etc.
7. The Spiders, Dwarves captured, introduction of wood-elves culture, and Legolas, Thranduil and Tauriel.
8. Barrels out of Bond.
9. Arrival to Laketown
10. Introduction of Laketown culture and the Master, Bard and Alfrid.
11. Farewell to Laketown, into the "desolation"
12. The Battle of Dol Guldur, possibly final confrontation between Thorin & Co. and Fimbul's Orcs?

There and Back Again

1. Scouting the Lonely Mountain, eventually finding the secret entrance.
2. Bilbo seeing Smaug for the first time, stealing a cup/Smaug's wrath
3. Aftermath of Dol Guldur battle
4. Bilbo's second meeting in which he is spotted and has a long conversation with Smaug.
5. Smaug leaving the Mountain.
6. Bilbo & dwarves start going through all the treasure and exploring the mountain.
7. Smaug attacking Laketown, Smaug dies
8. Laketown refugees
9. The gathering storm, mobilizing Lakemen/Wood Elves/Orcs
10. Siege of the Mountain, a thief in the night
11. Battle of Five Armies
12. Aftermath of Battle, Thorin's Funeral, Refounding of Dale, Balin departs for Moria, hint of Sauron returning to/heading for Mordor
13. Other bridge elements concerning LotR (a touch the Hunt for Gollum, some Rangers guarding the Shire ETC?)
14. Bilbo's Back Again, auction outside Bagend, possible adoption of young Frodo/epilogue

IMO, Film 1 revolves primarily around setting out and surviving the Misty Mountains; it seems Film 2 around Mirkwood, Laketown and the Necromancer; and Film 3 around Smaug and the Battle of Five Armies. Of course, we don't know for sure what will land where until at least Late Summer/Early Fall of next year. Wink


My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Oct 5 2012, 5:17pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 5 2012, 5:08pm


Views: 1711
The *spoilers*

 Death of Smaug. I think that the death of Smaug belongs at the end of "The Desolation of Smaug". as the big payoff for that movie. Leaving it as a cliff hanger does not set well with me.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



(This post was edited by entmaiden on Oct 5 2012, 5:42pm)


ryanw8
The Shire

Oct 5 2012, 5:11pm


Views: 1610
Not so much action?

Did we forget the Battle of the Five Armies?

I think Smaug could be in either film 2 or 3, or both!


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 5:15pm


Views: 1489
Smaug must be in film 2, his name is in the title

Battle of five army will be big, but it's not enough for an entire Jackson movie !


(This post was edited by Ffnir on Oct 5 2012, 5:16pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 5 2012, 5:16pm


Views: 1600
I really think you are loading a bit too much on "There and Back Again".

Even if Smaug does not die in "The Desolation of Smaug" the movie will have to at least run up to Smaug's departure to Lake Town.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 5:23pm


Views: 1580
Yeah it's a big probability

but if the action is very centered on Bilbo and the dwarves, then the departure of smaug to Laketown is kind of an end. Well It's true that it would be logical to end this movie with smaug's death, but i would prefere a very long smaug sequence to a very long five army sequence, so I hope we see him in the two films. It's hard to differentiate thoughts and hopes when we talk about those movies... Evil


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2012, 5:26pm


Views: 1513
I thought so as well until recently...

I assumed that DoS would end with Smaug taking off for Laketown and TABA would open with his attack (talk about a powerful opening!), but I've now come to think that would leave Film 2 overstuffed and Film 3 lacking...I think that a lot of TABA (such as the gathering storm, thief in the night) - and other potential drama such as Bard claiming his heritage and becoming leader to the survivors of Laketown - will all feel like part of the same "prologue to battle", meaning they won't "count" as individual storybeats. However, I suppose PJ could pull off such a structure for the trilogy, given the proper approach ETC.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 5:27pm


Views: 1602
No Smaug in Desolation of Smaug ?

I think you're trying to preserve the second film of the original duology, just like people were holding on to the barrel escape as the end of film one, because these two original movies were much more coherent in there structure.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2012, 5:33pm


Views: 1489
Yes, it is a conundrum...

I agree a Smaug-less Desolation would be pretty strange. IMO, a way to solve it would be a Smaug cameo in Film 2 (seeing a glimpse of him in the Mountain and perhaps hearing him speak), so the audience isn't completely befuddled as to why the Dragon is mentioned in the title. I also think they're really going to have to explain the the "Desolation of Smaug" is a location in this context, (probably being a barren Mordor-like area), and not a reference to the Dragon himself...a mere passing reference ALA "the union of the two towers" isn't going to cut it here, IMO. Tongue

Also agreed that the structure for TH back when it was two films was much more cohesive and more preferable. Wink

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 5 2012, 5:33pm


Views: 1609
It all comes down to the Dol Guldur subplot

If it is long enough, and has an explosive ending, then that could easily be the climax of DOS.

But then again, if the warg attack is the climax to AUJ, then the barrel escape could be the climax for DOS...

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2012, 5:42pm


Views: 1434
Agreed Barrels out of Bond would have been/could be a great climatic sequence. //

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 5 2012, 5:48pm


Views: 1487
We know PJ loves to Start with Big Bang!

Example FOTR..prologue Smacked us Right
in the Chops!
TTT..Gandalf's fall with the Balrog
as a dream in Frodo's Mind.
ROTK the original finding of the One
and Murder of Dreagol!

So that said
I believe that the dwarves
playing in the pile of Gold
(Goal accomplished?)
ends movie Two
And the final shot
is Smaug flying to Laketown.

Which allows movie three to Start
with Big Bang...Smaug's death.


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 5:50pm


Views: 1489
I don't think so

Smaug's death might not be the climax because like most of us reading The Hobbit, we all thought it would be the end of Bilbo's (and the dwarves') adventure and that is not the case.

It would very bizarre with what I know now to have Smaug's death to be the end. Where's the narrative push to the next act (film!) in his death.

Smaug's death serves the purpose to set the forces of middle-earth to the Lonely Mountain in pursuit of the Dragon's Hoard.

Smaug's death works better as an opener, setting up the Battle of Five Armies.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 5 2012, 6:03pm


Views: 1598
The geo-political build-up

With Smaug dead, they can begin to show the political build up - Laketown is destroyed, and all that gold is unguarded. Perfect time for the Men to declare war on the Dwarves. That would certainly drive the next film forward.

And that could work perfectly for the end of DOS.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 5 2012, 6:04pm)


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 6:06pm


Views: 1470
personally it seemed a little lame

like a glorified water rapids ride at Disneyland.

I know Peter would have made it an exciting climax, but rereading the book, it seems like an unnecessary even to drag out. IMO

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 6:10pm


Views: 1473
but but but but but

butt.

I know everyone is hesitant about the cliffhanger endings of The Hobbit films (that may or may not happen), but it just seems like a lot to stuff into TDOS.

However, we don't know what PJ compressed.

Will we be leaving Thranduil's Halls 1/3 of the way in or half-way in? I think that might make a big difference in how the last two films play out.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 5 2012, 6:12pm


Views: 1420
The only problem with the climax of DOS being the barrel escape is ...

That the majority of the trilogy is concentrating on the non-important bits. 2 entire films just up to the Mirkwood escape, than a quick film of Smaug's death and the BO5A. That doesn't sit right at all.

For that reason, I think Smaug should die in DOS. 2 films shouldn't be dedicated to a half of the story, where not much is accomplished!

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2012, 6:18pm


Views: 1406
Correct, I don't expect it to be the end of Film 2...

Just saying that if it were big enough (say, perhaps with the barrels going through an Elf aqueduct system and guards shooting at them from the shore?), it could make an effective climax IMO.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 6:21pm


Views: 1367
Wait !

An entire film on Mirkwood ? and that's why they would have done 3 films instead of three ? and they would call it DOS ?

There must be a Smaug centered movie. The smaug part is the most important thing in the book, with riddles in the dark. It have to take at least one half of a movie !


burgahobbit
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 6:45pm


Views: 1359
Yes I agree

And it's all my favorite stuff too! The first part of the journey we will be seeing in December is good material, but what I'm really really looking forward to seeing is the stuff from Mirkwood to Smaug. Then the battle afterwards I'm sure will be cool and I'm very curious to see how Sauron will become the eye (I hope it's not too cheesy) but, as you said, the "meat" of the story is in Smaug Smile


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 5 2012, 7:01pm


Views: 1447
My bet : we meet Smaug in TDOS and he dies in film 3.

 


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2012, 7:08pm


Views: 1304
As said above, I don't think anyone's suggesting an entire movie set in Mirkwood. //

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


elostirion74
Rohan

Oct 5 2012, 7:28pm


Views: 1390
I agree, but I think they will leave Smaugs death for film 3

DoS definitely is where the meat of the action is, although I think the film will be shorter than youve suggested. After all DoS must cover not only Dol Guldur material, but also the parts where Bilbo actually evolves into the real leader of the company, as well as a solid dose of character interaction.

Im curious about what kind of added material well actually get, though, besides Dol Guldur and a fleshing out of the culture of the Wood-elves.


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 7:30pm


Views: 1052
Oh right, I hadn't read the title of your post. Sorry ! //

 


Eye's on Guard
Lorien


Oct 5 2012, 9:48pm


Views: 1053
Agreed

I really haven't understood how floating down a river could be that climactic, even with elves shooting arrows, as has been suggested.


Ardamr
Valinor


Oct 5 2012, 10:07pm


Views: 1068
Climax

I believe the climax was going to be an action sequence involving the escape from prison and subsequent river escape. Surely the prison escape would have been beefed up somewhat and floating down the river would have been the denouement.

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Buchanicus
Lorien


Oct 5 2012, 10:17pm


Views: 1063
This looks pretty good to me!


In Reply To
The Desolation of Smaug

1. Plotting of the Orcs/Goblins, Thorin & Co. head for Beorn's house.
2. Beorn!
3. Farewell to Beorn - edge of Mirkwood
4.
Gandalf's investigations of the Necromancer with Raddy, Beorn, Leggy/Tauriel (including a meeting of the FULL White Council)?
5. Thorin & Co. stalked through film by Fimbul the Hunter and Azog's forces
6. The whole Mirkwood passage, the river drama, the starvation, etc.
7. The Spiders, Dwarves captured, introduction of wood-elves culture, and Legolas, Thranduil and Tauriel.
8. Barrels out of Bond.
9. Arrival to Laketown
10. Introduction of Laketown culture and the Master, Bard and Alfrid.
11. Farewell to Laketown, into the "desolation"
12. The Battle of Dol Guldur, possibly final confrontation between Thorin & Co. and Fimbul's Orcs?

There and Back Again

1. Scouting the Lonely Mountain, eventually finding the secret entrance.
2. Bilbo seeing Smaug for the first time, stealing a cup/Smaug's wrath
3. Aftermath of Dol Guldur battle
4. Bilbo's second meeting in which he is spotted and has a long conversation with Smaug.
5. Smaug leaving the Mountain.
6. Bilbo & dwarves start going through all the treasure and exploring the mountain.
7. Smaug attacking Laketown, Smaug dies
8. Laketown refugees
9. The gathering storm, mobilizing Lakemen/Wood Elves/Orcs
10. Siege of the Mountain, a thief in the night
11. Battle of Five Armies
12. Aftermath of Battle, Thorin's Funeral, Refounding of Dale, Balin departs for Moria, hint of Sauron returning to/heading for Mordor
13. Other bridge elements concerning LotR (a touch the Hunt for Gollum, some Rangers guarding the Shire ETC?)
14. Bilbo's Back Again, auction outside Bagend, possible adoption of young Frodo/epilogue

IMO, Film 1 revolves primarily around setting out and surviving the Misty Mountains; it seems Film 2 around Mirkwood, Laketown and the Necromancer; and Film 3 around Smaug and the Battle of Five Armies. Of course, we don't know for sure what will land where until at least Late Summer/Early Fall of next year. Wink


TORn member formally known as ryan1976.


Lost Hobbit
Rivendell


Oct 5 2012, 10:17pm


Views: 1042
What I think...

I can imagine it like this

- Smaug's death
- A false illusion of peace (for audience)
- The results, destroyed Esgaroth.
- And after all chit-chat Bard and the others march to Lonely mountain. This is where DOS can end. Maybe we will see Lonely Mountain (again). This will look a bit like final scenes from first two films of Lotr, which focused on Mordor over horizon.



(This post was edited by Lost Hobbit on Oct 5 2012, 10:17pm)


Carne
Tol Eressea

Oct 5 2012, 10:41pm


Views: 1014
This is what I think as well.

The last we see of him in DOS could be him flying towards Laketown, then open TABA with his attack.

As others have mentioned, the climax of DOS will probably be the attack on Dol Guldur.


(This post was edited by Carne on Oct 5 2012, 10:41pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 5 2012, 10:57pm


Views: 1099
Not necessarily

TDOS could end in the desolation itself, as the company treks toward the mountain, or as Bilbo prepares to enter the secret door, or any other place prior to chatting with Smaug. Those are all possibilities, IMO.


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 10:58pm


Views: 1010
Of course, it is possible even Jackson don't when DOS will end. //

 


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 5 2012, 11:12pm


Views: 1092
I so love the Idea of our Dwarves diving into

A Massive Pile of gold..thinking their Quest is accomplished.
Yet the Final Shot of Mr. MAGIFICENCE
storming to Laketown is just TOO..Juicey
Kinda cliffhanger.. a continuation to part three.

Visually the Humoungous Mound of treasure
(which we barely got a look at in Video diaries)
is gunna be so
Dazzling in 3D.

Bomby is already getting DragonSicknezzz..


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Oct 5 2012, 11:22pm


Views: 1105
me too Bombadil

I love that false sense of security, the weird dizzying sickness that overtakes the dwarves, Bilbo's uncertainty and worry (growing mistrust of the dwarves) and longing to be home again.

I do not think it will come off as "cliffhangery," but more chilling and exciting in anticipation of film three!

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 5 2012, 11:55pm


Views: 1087
Thank you T&TA?

Last week I read Allof-It. From Chapter IV
"Overhill and Underhill"

Once again after 20something
readings I couldn't put it down.

The thing that struck is how
Easily the Dwarves got depressed.

If it wasn't for Bilbo's Fearless CheerLeader
attitude about life.
Their quest would have been
a dismail Falure.

Tolkien instilled in Bilbo a
Positive Mental Attitude that
It..made anyone reading it
Emphasize with.

Bilbo has so many qualities that you
Or Anyone Worldwide.. WONDER Why?

he is considered
one of Literture's greatest Heros!

Finally expressed by Thorin on his
DeathBed.

Bomby needs to take alot of tissue
in December..I getting teary-eyed..Now!


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Oct 5 2012, 11:59pm)


Plurmo
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 1:31am


Views: 1169
The Two Towers ended with

Frodo, Sam and Smagol walking into the desolation of Sauron.

As soon as I saw the title The Desolation of Smaug I was rather certain that the movie would end with the company nearing Erebor, or maybe entering Dale. Also I was sure that the main part of the Dol Guldur plot would happen in it.

Considering the ending of each movie, the LOTR trilogy could be called:

FOTR - The Desolation of Frodo;
TTT - The Desolation of Sauron;
ROTK - The Consolation of Samwise.

And that says a lot about the approach of the filmmakers.


Eye's on Guard
Lorien


Oct 6 2012, 1:51am


Views: 996
This looks like a good way to do it...

Winning at Dol Goldur is to winning at Helm's Deep/Isengard as roaming the skirts of the Lonely Mountain is to roaming Ithilien near Mordor

Also, if they want accurate titles,There and Back Again implies the company should reach their goal in the last film. "There" refers to Erebor/Smaug, not an unexpected argument and battle.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Oct 6 2012, 4:15am


Views: 1013
You know that LotR was structured on climaxes. I don't expect these to be different

It is, in the end, and action movie whether you think that's proper or not. The first movie is all ready set to end on an exciting moment, perhaps with some gradual resolution at the end, but still in the midst of an exciting and pounding moment. The difference here, I suppose, is that the stakes are set far lower. No one even gets any bit hurt in this scene, just a little flustered, which is likely to carry through to the next film as well, but not ending on a literal nothing. People all ready complain that LotR is nothing but walking to a mountain. This would just fuel the flames.

What I'm thinking is that we will end after Smaug buries the crew. Two main reasons: It's an exciting cliffhanger, and the next movie is set up brilliantly. Think about this.

Prologue - Dale. The idealistic place of all races communing as one to a greater urpose. No desolation to be seen across the landscape, and Bard's ancestor rulin justly over his people. Suddenly, a shadow appears above, and the people look in horror as they recognize the figure of the great dragon, Smaug. They run, but cannot escape the relentless onslaught of the creature, watching in horror as their town is burned to ash. Cuts upon a crescendo to Laketown, now in the midst of the same situation, with Bard now frantically trying to get a view of the creature. They watch as the same terror inflicts them, and many flee across the shore in boats as they lament upon what has befallen them.

And then we know how the rest turns out Tongue But would that not be a beautiful parallel? Could rival RotK's prologue, if they did it in a somewhat similar manner. The action scene becomes immediately identifiable and relevant to the audience, who will think that the town was to suffer the same fate. All the while you wonder about our heroes, and once the dragon falls, you return to them for a recap and then discovery of the treasure.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 6 2012, 5:05am


Views: 958
Yup

I think TDOS will end with the company walking through the desolation, and toward the mountain...


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 8:10am


Views: 950
I agree.

I think it's unlikely that Smaug can die in film 2, since this would provide too much closure - people unfamiliar with the book would go "the dragon is dead - why bother with the next film?

I think DoS will end with Smaug smashing the mountainside and sealing the dwarves and Bilbo inside.

Yes, I believe the second film deviate from LotR and end with a cliff hanger. Hence film 3 being only 6 months later, rather than the usual 12.

As for the Dol Guldur sub-plot, I don't believe there will be any "second white council meeting". The meeting in the first film will end with Saruman vetoing any direct action. Gandalf will then decide to go it alone, heading to Dol Guldur after leaving the dwarves at the edge of Mirkwood. Gandalf will get into trouble in Dol Guldur, and his friends* will turn up to save him, leading to the battle.

*friends may include:

Galadriel
Elrond
Radagast
Beorn
Legolas
Tauriel
One or more companies of Elves.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 6 2012, 8:17am


Views: 957
It works both ways though

If Smaug doesn't die in DOS, we then have 2 films that concentrate on more of the book were none of the action takes place.

That's not right.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 8:33am


Views: 921
There is lots to fit into DoS though

As well as the content from the novel and the Dol Guldur sub-plot, they have to beef up Bard so that by the time he kills the dragon he is a hero we feel invested in.

Of course, if PJ can engineer some way to get Bard to Dol Guldur he can kill two birds with one stone.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Oct 6 2012, 8:41am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 6 2012, 8:40am


Views: 976
Oh, I agree about that

But shoving the death of Smaug and the BO5A into one film is even worse.

One of many reasons why AUJ should finish around Mirkwood, in my opinion.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 8:44am


Views: 957
It's certainly problamatic

But putting the death of Smaug right at the beginning of the third film allows the two big action sequences to be separated by a large chunk of drama an politics.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 6 2012, 8:47am


Views: 980
I could probably accept that

*If* it happened right at the beginning, and the film was over 2.5 hours. Otherwise, it's too much in such a short film.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 6 2012, 9:10am


Views: 963
Just out of interest, was this

A worry when the plan was two films?

LR


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 9:14am


Views: 964
Well, if Smaug dies in film 2

It becomes even more essential to end on a cliff hanger.

Which would probably mean Gandalf captured by Sauron in Dol Guldur.

The third film then begins with the Dol Guldur battle, as Gandalf's friends storm to his rescue.

The problem with this approach is it elevates Dol Guldur from B plot to A plot.

I prefer the Smaug battle as a sort of extended prologue to film 3. You could even mirror a prologue to film 1, with Smaug attacking Dale (dragon carefully hidden).

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 9:15am


Views: 952
I'm sure is was a worry for PJ, yes.

 

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Oct 6 2012, 9:15am


Views: 953
I know the story outline of DOS

It's all pretty much rushed up until they leave Laketown. Then Faramir finds the company, takes them all to Osgiliath for no reason and eventually sees his error and lets them go back to Dale. The last shot is them approaching Lonely Mountain.


Briza
Bree

Oct 6 2012, 10:06am


Views: 1004
Smaug dieing in film 2.

I also suspect Smaug would die at the start of film 3, like already suggested Smaug dieing in film 2 is to much of a closer.

I think DOS would end with the river "flowing with gold" and the inhabitants of lake town celebrating the return of the king under the mountain. Could end with Bard's response to the celebration.

The main 'battle' of DOS would be the assault on Dol Guldur by the white council.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 6 2012, 10:08am


Views: 1006
Good question LR

And in all honesty, no, no it wasn't ...

An additional film just means there are more (sensible) options available.

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 6 2012, 10:11am


Views: 1007
Dol Guldur and Smaug

If I understand you, and please correct me (as I get confused easily...), Wink your saying Smaug should die in TABA so that the Dol Guldur plot doesn't become the main plot at the beginning of TABA?

But doesn't that also work the other way round. If Smaug dies in TABA, then Dol Guldur becomes the climax of DOS. Either way, Dol Guldur moves from B plot, to A plot?

Unless I've misunderstood you? Smile

Want Hobbit Movie News? Hobbit Headlines of the Week!



Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 6 2012, 10:30am


Views: 963
I understand - and agree

That three films offers more options, thus some options are better than others. I suppose I was just reflecting that even if one feels putting Smaug's death and the battle in the same film is the worse option as it will be overly packed, it would still be a good deal less packed than when we had two films.

I'm also sort of interested, now that I think of it, in the current talk of "climaxes" and again reflect back to the two film structure. It seems to me that the barrel escape would not fit the bill as a climax, as the term is currently being used (great battles, enemies destroyed etc) but instead was simply more of a natural break point (the end of the "journey").

I seem to recall little objection to the barrel scene as an ending so I wonder if :
(a) we should be thinking more of break points than climaxes
(b) I'm missing why the barrels would have been a climax as oppod to a break point
(c) the trilogy structure somehow demands more climaxes than break points

LR


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 11:40am


Views: 1002
You begin and end on the most important point

Which is why, with the LotR, PJ makes sure to always start and end on Frodo and the Ring.

It doesn't matter that 75% of the movie features the Helms Deep sub-plot, so long as you begin and end on the main plot.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 12:15pm


Views: 1030
Well, PJ engineers mini-climaxes near the end of FotR and TT

which weren't really in the book (Lurtz fight, Osgiliath Nazgul confrontation).

So I would guess he would look for a place to have at least a mini-climax near the break points. He may well have been dissatisfied with the barrels for this reason.

It's my feeling that Smaug attacking the dwarves on the mountainside, and smashing the mountain when they take refuge inside would serve as sufficient climax for DoS.

Final scene of DoS: Darkness. Balin lights a torch. Dwarves are sealed inside the Mountain. Bofur: "Well, that could have been worse!"

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Oct 6 2012, 12:21pm)


Ffnir
Rohan


Oct 6 2012, 12:50pm


Views: 920
Good point

Smaug's wrath on the mountain side would be a great climax action scene, and one that can be very easily extended from the books. And when he goes to laketown saying he's the true king under the mountain, that's really the question of the next movie : who is the true king under the mountain


totoro
Lorien

Oct 6 2012, 6:10pm


Views: 855
Smaug's wrath on the mountainside...

... doesn't seem very climactic to me. If they follow the book, all is quiet until Bilbo convinces the dwarves to shut the door. Then Smaug comes along and smashes rocks.

I could see it going either way, but I would like Smaug's death to be the climactic scene of DOS. I would reverse the orders of chapters 12 and 13 to put the exploration of the treasure in TABA and the death of Smaug in DOS.

I would also like to see the battle with the necromancer play out in TABA. I think the defeat of Smaug is interesting because it is done by humans (Bard) as opposed to the greater powers of ME (Gandalf). If the Bo5A is part of a greater plot, it climaxes for both the lesser (Hobbit/Dwarf) and greater (White Council) arcs. If the white council "wins" in DOS, I feel like the significance of the Bo5A is diminished. It makes the land more peaceful after the defeat of a great host of goblins, but the big picture is the necro AND the goblins (plus, to a lesser extent, Smaug). I don't want to resolve the big picture before the little one, especially not in two sequential films.


totoro
Lorien

Oct 6 2012, 6:14pm


Views: 958
The Last Homely House storytime

In the book, Bilbo learns of the necromancer on his way home. I wonder if Gandalf would tell the story of the (partial) defeat of the necromancer as a flashback? That doesn't feel very "climaxy." I'm not sure it would work in a movie.


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 6 2012, 7:55pm


Views: 869
If you look at PJ's directing style

you can be sure he will milk every scene to enhance the level of peril. See what he does with "runs down some stairs" in Moria!

So you can be sure Smaug won't just "smash a few rocks". You can be sure the dwarves will be pursued across the mountainside, and run down the tunnel just ahead of a massive fireball. The dragon (who will make Godzilla look like a Hobbit in comparison) will then flatten half the mountain (probably whilst spouting pithy one liners along with fire).

It will be like this, whether it is at the end of the movie or not.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 10:18am


Views: 767
I like your plot development


In Reply To
I agree a Smaug-less Desolation would be pretty strange. IMO, a way to solve it would be a Smaug cameo in Film 2 (seeing a glimpse of him in the Mountain and perhaps hearing him speak), so the audience isn't completely befuddled as to why the Dragon is mentioned in the title. I also think they're really going to have to explain the the "Desolation of Smaug" is a location in this context, (probably being a barren Mordor-like area), and not a reference to the Dragon himself...a mere passing reference ALA "the union of the two towers" isn't going to cut it here, IMO. Tongue

Also agreed that the structure for TH back when it was two films was much more cohesive and more preferable. Wink


Captainsalt, I like your idea a lot.

As many have discussed before, desolation doesn't necessarily refer to where Smaug is. It can refer to the destruction he has already left. This would be great to show the destruction he left in laketown and the surrounding areas. But they NEED to explain this in the story.

I am certainly fine with PJ cutting the films wherever he wants as long as he makes a well structured and coherent movie.

I'm becoming more and more confident that the dwarves won't reach smaug til the 3rd film. And that's fine but there has to be some sort of climax for them in the 2nd film. I like your idea about fimbul and his wargs even though this strays from the book a little. Whatever the case, if the dwarves don't see smaug in the second film that's fine as long as there is some kind of climax for their storyline.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 10:21am


Views: 769
Dol Guldur


In Reply To
If it is long enough, and has an explosive ending, then that could easily be the climax of DOS.

But then again, if the warg attack is the climax to AUJ, then the barrel escape could be the climax for DOS...


I don't think there's any need to worry about the DG attack being climactic enough. I'm sure PJ will do a good job with it. As I stated before though, there has to be some sort of climax for the dwarf part of the storyline as well; though it doesn't need to be as powerful if you already have the DG climax.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 10:24am


Views: 745
good point


In Reply To
Smaug's death might not be the climax because like most of us reading The Hobbit, we all thought it would be the end of Bilbo's (and the dwarves') adventure and that is not the case.

It would very bizarre with what I know now to have Smaug's death to be the end. Where's the narrative push to the next act (film!) in his death.

Smaug's death serves the purpose to set the forces of middle-earth to the Lonely Mountain in pursuit of the Dragon's Hoard.

Smaug's death works better as an opener, setting up the Battle of Five Armies.


One of the things I've always said is that if they end film2 with smaug's death the only way they could really make a set up for film 3 is to MORE THAN JUST HINT that there is going to be a big battle over the treasure.

If not, then people will be left wondering, "well what the heck else is there to the story?".

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 10:29am


Views: 776
Personally


In Reply To
AI'm sure will be cool and I'm very curious to see how Sauron will become the eye (I hope it's not too cheesy) Smile


I really don't like the idea of seeing Sauron becoming the eye. And I think it's unnecessary. All that needs to be shown is that he is driven out of DG and no longer can try to form an alliance with Smaug. But we don't need to know where he goes from there. All we need to know is that he isn't destroyed.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 10:52am


Views: 768
I agree


In Reply To
TDOS could end in the desolation itself, as the company treks toward the mountain, or as Bilbo prepares to enter the secret door, or any other place prior to chatting with Smaug. Those are all possibilities, IMO.


I think if film 2 contains Bilbo's encounter with Smaug it would be jamming too much into that film. I imagine the encounter will be pretty lengthy. And I think it should be. It's a pretty pivotal moment in the story, and if it's included at the end of film 2 then I think that a lot of stuff would have to be cut (from somewhere) in order to fit it into the story.

I think the entire story works better saving Bilbo's encounter with Smaug and the rest for Film 3. This would allow both film 2 and 3 to have a good amount of story without being crammed. Plus, the "main" villain won't die in the second film.

The question is how should they deal with the dwarf story climax in film 2? What should it be? We already know the DG sub plot can conclude, and provide a great climax for film 2 but there needs to be some sort of climax for the dwarves in film 2?

What do you think it could/should be?

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 8 2012, 11:19am


Views: 752
I don't agree


In Reply To
... doesn't seem very climactic to me. If they follow the book, all is quiet until Bilbo convinces the dwarves to shut the door. Then Smaug comes along and smashes rocks.

I could see it going either way, but I would like Smaug's death to be the climactic scene of DOS. I would reverse the orders of chapters 12 and 13 to put the exploration of the treasure in TABA and the death of Smaug in DOS.

I would also like to see the battle with the necromancer play out in TABA. I think the defeat of Smaug is interesting because it is done by humans (Bard) as opposed to the greater powers of ME (Gandalf). If the Bo5A is part of a greater plot, it climaxes for both the lesser (Hobbit/Dwarf) and greater (White Council) arcs. If the white council "wins" in DOS, I feel like the significance of the Bo5A is diminished. It makes the land more peaceful after the defeat of a great host of goblins, but the big picture is the necro AND the goblins (plus, to a lesser extent, Smaug). I don't want to resolve the big picture before the little one, especially not in two sequential films.


I think Smaug needs to die either at the same time or after the resolution of the DG subplot. But not before.

My reasoning is that it Smaug dies before the DG subplot it might sever the importance of the connection between the two stories.
The connection should be that Sauron is trying to gain an alliance with Smaug which is why Gandalf sets the company out to Erebor, and why the white council attacks DG.

If Smaug dies first, then it would seem like there really isn't much need for them to attack DG since the main villain/purpose (Smaug) has been killed. Yes, they still have the task of driving Sauron out of DG but it doesn't really seems to fit with the original purpose of attacking DG.

But if DG is resolved first, we are still left with the threat of Smaug and the purpose of the dwarves' quest. It also shifts the spotlight away from the DG subplot and brings the focus completely on the main aspect of the story, which is the journey of the dwarves to reclaim the Lonely Mountain.

I think resolving the DG subplot before Smaug's death is a much more effective way of telling the story.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


burgahobbit
Rohan


Oct 8 2012, 7:02pm


Views: 943
I think that people will expect it

If they don't see it, after seeing the new Sauron in The Hobbit, they'll wonder "How did Saruon ever become the Great Eye?"

Actually, I'll wonder that too. I fear how it may be handled but I don't think the filmmakers will leave this gap in the films. I expect we might see a shot of the patrolling eye in Mordor that would be very similar to the Death Star construction shot in SW Episode 3. But we'll see.