The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Nori and the dragon [spoiler]



Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 6:06pm


Views: 3073
Nori and the dragon [spoiler]
In the comic con version of Vlog 8 wich now has been locked, between two shots of Smaug's treasure room, Jed Borphy in his Nori costume was shown in a very short interview saying something like : "lots of gold, lot to steel, I'm not afraid of the dragon and there's a lot to steel."

Knowing that Nori, in these films, will probably be portrayed as a kleptomaniac, do you think the nearness of the treasure will make him go mad and try to steal something ? It would be a big deviation from the book since it would have a lot of consequences for the dwarf : Nori has no magic ring, and Smaug would identify his dwarf smell instantly. He could even die !
We can't say for sure that Nori will do anything, but he will at least be tempted, given his personality. What do you think ?


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 6:15pm


Views: 1624
2 things ...
Was it Jed speaking ... or Nori ... it might or might not say anything about the charater.

And we know Nori is a trouble maker:

Quote
Perhaps the most elusive member of The Company of Thorin Oakenshield, Nori is often in trouble with the dwarvish authorities. Deciding it might be a good time to leave town, he readily joins the Quest for the Lonely Mountain, not realizing the journey ahead may well lead him into far more trouble than he has left behind. Nobody ever quite knows what the quick-witted and wily Nori is up to, except that it’s guaranteed to be dodgy and quite possibly illegal. Despite rarely seeing eye-to-eye with his brothers Dori and Ori, he is nonetheless immensely loyal and will protect them by whatever means possible.
The vlog is still available online as well. Don't ask me where, my hands and mouth are bound tight. You just need to know where to look Evil Tongue

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 3 2012, 6:20pm)


elevorn
Lorien


Oct 3 2012, 6:24pm


Views: 1344
Yikes
Having him try to steal something from Smaug completely complicates things from the book perspective as immediately Smaug's rage would have been roused and he would raze the mountain side almost immediately, and it takes out a lot of the conversation that Bilbo has with Smaug, at least the reasoning that it leads to. He may say something and then the dwarves hold him back, or he may walk with Bilbo down the tunnel at first instead of Balin(is that right I just read this and cannot remember).

Besides Bilbo is the burglar. Why would they have two? Of course their is a difference between a thief and a burglar I suppose. Burglary is more of an art form in a way, and thieving is just thieving. And now I have opened myself up to all sorts of questions I suppose.


"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
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QuackingTroll
Valinor


Oct 3 2012, 6:34pm


Views: 1264
Perhaps he'll have something to do with The Arkenstone? //
 


Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 6:48pm


Views: 1351
I think it's more probably Nori
Why would Jed tell us that he wants to steel fake gold from a CGI dragon ? He was really speaking like a inveterate cleptomaniac !


Macfeast
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 6:56pm


Views: 1275
To make a joke?
I think it's just Jed goofing around behind the scenes, as we've seen most of the actors do. He might have been channeling Nori a bit there, but in the end, I don't think a desire to steal gold from a dragon is a trait exclusive to Nori; I think all dwarves, deep down, want to do that (even more so when dealing with gold that they think is theirs to begin with).

As for Nori, he will have plenty of gold of his own, I don't think he will see a need to steal anything (or at the very least, the movie won't show him express such a need, even if Nori himself would see it that way). Once they find all that gold unguarded, he will probably go all uncle Scrooge, diving right into it and swim around in it.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Oct 3 2012, 7:05pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 7:04pm


Views: 1235
Because he's having a bit of fun
Like the majority of people in the vlogs Wink

In the books the Dwarves stuff their pockets of gold once they enter the chamber. Nori is no exception. He probably just is a little more excessive.

I hope no-one makes a gold angel ...

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SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 7:18pm


Views: 1294
Not because of his personality (spoiler) --
no one is immune to dragon sickness, everyone is tempted... though I suppose some are more or less likely to act on their urges than others. Is this what you mean?

Making the sickness dependent on temperament needlessly strays from the text, and would undermine Bilbo's force of will and the significance of his gesture when trying to broker a peaceful resolution during the siege.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 3 2012, 7:19pm)


Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 8:09pm


Views: 1209
Dragon sickness
Is certainly affecting everybody, and dwarves even, more. But it seems like Nori is a person who like to steal more than to own. So when every dwarves would fill their pocket after the dragon's death, Nori would be even more exited to take something while the dragon is still the defending the treasure.
And in my opinion, dragon sickness depends in part of the temperament, force of will included, just like the ring influence : it does affect every bearer, but gollum will kill his best friend the minute he sees the ring because he is weak and foul, when Frodo will carry it across all middle earth with the purpose to destroy it. But that's not far from what you were saying, is it ?


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 8:18pm


Views: 1178
Nori probably steals more than just the gold in Smaug's hoard
To really beef up his character, he might steal more food at Bilbo's and Rivendell; take more treasure than the others from the Troll hoard; and even steal things from Laketown.

His thiefing behaviour is't limited to Erebor.

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Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 8:28pm


Views: 1126
I certainly agree
But if Nori is character with an arc of some importance, he's stealing habit should make him do something that matters, in good or bad, in the adventure. And I think there is no place a theft would have more importance than in Smaug's lair... it would make something else of this character than just a minor jock. But I know it's just speculation...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 8:31pm


Views: 1172
Meaningful to the plot ... hmmm
Good point. I'm not sure what they could do to make him and his thieving meaningful in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps he simply steals extra food/water and more practical items (rope?) that become handy later on in the Quest?

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Macfeast
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 8:53pm


Views: 1119
Will he have an arc of importance?
While we can't tell for sure until we've seen the films, we have a few clues pointing us towards which dwarves are going to be the most prominent, and Nori, so far, isn't one of them. Stealing something from Smaug's lair is kind of a big deal in terms of plot development, a major event; If it is to happen (twice, I should note, another thing which I think speaks against the possibility of it happening; This is Bilbo's moment, after all) is Nori an important enough character to the story to be the one to do it?

I think it's more likely that Nori will be something of a minor jock; Not every dwarf will be able to have a big character arc. The only way I can see this happening, is if PJ and team believe that the audience will think badly of Bilbo, thinking that his theft makes him directly responsible for Smaug's rage, and the subsequent destruction of Lake-town, effectively turning the audience against Bilbo. If they are afraid of that happening, then I could see them turning someone else (like Nori) into the scapegoat. But two thefts? Unlikely, I think.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Oct 3 2012, 9:03pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 8:58pm


Views: 1058
I wonder if he is made to feel redundant by Bilbo?
I wonder if he was originally brought along to be the burglar but is supplanted by Bilbo when he joins the company? Will some professional jealousy be evident? Will they state the needfulness of the change in roles (hiring Bilbo as chief burglar) because Nori cannot be trusted?

(I wonder too if he was type cast.)


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 3 2012, 9:00pm)


Macfeast
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 9:10pm


Views: 1062
I'm curious about the relationship between Bilbo and Nori.
It could go any way, really; Either Nori grows resentful and jealous of Bilbo, or he takes him under his wing and shares a few tricks with him.

I could also see it being played for some humor:
Nori: So, burglar Baggins, what's your finest theft? One time, I managed to sneak off with a ruby necklace belonging to a highly regarded dwarf lord.
Bilbo: Well, I, um...one time, I snuck into farmer Maggot's crops, and took off with some of his carrots.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 3 2012, 9:15pm


Views: 1038
Or both?
The level of trust between the Dwarves and Bilbo changes massively along the Quest.

Nori could start off jealous (perhaps fuelled by Bilbo finding the troll key?), but then grows to trust him.

Smile

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Macfeast
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 9:22pm


Views: 1033
Indeed, that's a possibility.
That could very well turn out to be his character arc (and that would be a fairly simple arc, benefitting of a less prominent dwarf); Starting out jealous and wary of Bilbo, perhaps even moreso than the other dwarves, only to end up trusting him completely, teaching him a few tricks along the way.


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 3 2012, 9:29pm


Views: 1031
The impression I got
from the brief bio we have seen is Nori is more of a spiv/shady dealer/fence/con artist, rather than a compulsive thief.

The quoted line could simply refer to his motivation for initially joining the quest.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 9:50pm


Views: 1009
Don't know
But I would love it if Nori was a fast talking con like he appeared there, one who can overcome fear just by the thought of gold.

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Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 10:11pm


Views: 982
I hadn't thought of that !
"The quoted line could simply refer to his motivation for initially joining the quest."

Yep, I think you're right !


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 10:14pm


Views: 998
Or perhaps his role is to highlight Bilbo's lack of experience
as occasion permits...

At the Trollshaws:
While the dwarves look on, Bilbo pulls a talking purse out of a troll's pocket.
Nori: hmpf, rookies.

At the secret door to Smaug's lair:
Bilbo: Well, wish me luck!
Nori: Whatever noob.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Oct 3 2012, 10:17pm)


Preciousssss
The Shire


Oct 3 2012, 10:59pm


Views: 950
Ha
LaughlolLaugh


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 11:43pm


Views: 933
I hope not
Everyone doesn't need an arc. Some people start off on an adventure one way, and end up the same. This story is primarily about Bilbo and Thorin, and I hope it stays that way.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Oct 4 2012, 1:54am


Views: 911
And yet you say you're not a literal purist...
Frown I just feel like your obsession over the material is so narrow that it can't allow for ingenuitive filmmaking.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 4 2012, 3:07am


Views: 927
Because of one comment I made about the heart of the story?
Come on now, GoodGuy. This isn't an American political debate. You can't color me a literal purist because I make one comment about preserving the essence of the story.

I am, as I have often said, a "tone" or "essence" purist. If PJ can evoke the same feelings and thoughts, through film, that Tolkien does solely through words, than I will accept all sorts of literal changes (which is one reason why, unlike many others, I really enjoy the warg attack in TTT - that scene felt much more Tolkien to me than the entire Helm's Deep mess).

In terms of the Hobbit, the essence of the story is the conflict between Bilbo and Thorin. That is the character essence, and the thematic essence, of the entire thing. If PJ goes too far off the rails with convoluted dwarf character arcs, and the Dol Guldur material, than that would be a bit of a problem.

If, however, PJ manages to give us lots of little dwarven character arcs, and lots of Dol Guldur material, that to me feels like Tolkien, and seems to interpret was Tolkien was saying in a satisfying visual way, I will once again forgive a lot.

I don't dislike the LOTR films because they cut things like Bombadil, or added things like Theodred's funeral. I dislike the LOTR films because of PJ's style of film-making, and because of what I feel was an amateurish script that focused too intently, and sophomorically, on "dramatic reversals," awkward or overcooked "arcs" and melodrama.


Escapist
Gondor


Oct 4 2012, 3:51am


Views: 329
PJ's LOTR does remind me of America now that you mention it.
For every over-dramatized character arc there is a corresponding muted character arc.

Just like the good ol' USA ... for every madcap underwear-mailing fan there is another quieter fan that you probably never heard from. Cool

It's definitely not like a soap-opera where every single scene and character is required to be over-the-top dramatic at every moment blandly bleeding overly embellished staring-off-into-the-camera moments while every single female is expected to snog with every single male at some point in the history of the show.

Anyway, PJ's LOTR had variety - so - while I can think of some over-dramatized moments that I kind of drifted (actually only one comes to mind) off during like some 6 year old boy who squirms whenever anyone kisses on TV ... there were plenty of parts I liked quite a bit that skipped all that junk. I guess that I find that I can enjoy it by focusing on the good parts (which may be why I can only think of 1 scene that I thought had too much drama at the moment - but am coming up with multitudes of scenes that were fine on drama).

Also - not all drama is over-drama! Some moments should be dramatic moments. I can only think of a few that I thought were a little "over" for me on the dramatic. Actually, when the dramatic moments are more spread out, they are more striking and emphasize the critical nature of a particular moment rather than just ... yeah ... more drama ... and then more drama ... and guess what - this is also so dramatic ... like Dragonball Z where each season must top the previous one for ridiculous over-the-top powerfulness of enemies and heroes until it just gets silly.

Too much drama is like eating yummy candy ...

all
day
long

... sickening.

PJ's LOTR is not like that ... honestly ... do you really think it is?


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Oct 4 2012, 4:35am


Views: 349
It's merely that you seem to assume that this will overtake the focus
Without acknowledging that LotR avoided this problem as well. In fact, LotR was able to incorporate character arcs directly with all the climaxes, for one. Say all you will about Faramir's changes, but they certainly served a far greater purpose (and helped Gollum get through his arc as well, which was necessary to deepen his character). There's more to arcs than defining a clear story problem and then spending time having a neat resolution. There's subtle gestures, acknowledgements by characters, and parallels in the story. What if Nori, at the end, reluctantly takes his share because of the sacrifice they've all made to have to get it? He still goes off to live his happy life, but he's obtained a greater understanding of things around him?

We'll not know how "heavy" these elements are until we see the films themselves, but the sheer adversity to something you didn't imagine simply because it wasn't there in the first place is very closed minded. Seriously, where have the indicators been that Nori is going to be such a huge part of this story? Gandalf, Thorin, and Bilbo are clearly the main characters, but you seem to jump on just being vitriolic to character reveals because you think it will "detract" from the story. Feel free to worry, but just don't get overboard here!


(This post was edited by GoodGuyA on Oct 4 2012, 4:36am)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 4 2012, 6:59am


Views: 291
I think you are debating an imaginary person GoodGuy
Seriously, when did I ever say that I believe Nori is going to be a HUGE part of the story?

All I said was that I hope PJ doesn't overdo the dwarf character arcs, that's all. It is a hope, not a condemnation...


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 4 2012, 7:32am


Views: 299
I share your concern
But not out of a desire for "purity" (It 2D and 3D film are different media, then film and novel are even more different).

I'm simply concerned that the film might become bloated with irrelevant sub-plots. I think filmic bloat is PJs greatest weakness as a film maker. This guy hates to cut.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 4 2012, 7:38am


Views: 305
My desire is not for "purity" either
At least not the kind of purity most people think of.

I just want a good film, and extraneous sub-plots have the capacity to sink it.


kzer_za
Lorien

Oct 4 2012, 1:09pm


Views: 409
The Warg attack is better than Helms Deep?
Have to say I don't understand that at all. What about it feels more Tolkien to you? I don't mind PJ deciding to put in action scene there, but I think it's clearly the worst major action scene in the trilogy. The choreography, the editing, the warg CG - almost everything about it seems perfunctory and generic to me. And the Gimli pile-on/warg smell joke is sillier than "toss me!"


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Oct 4 2012, 1:15pm)