The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 1:06am


Views: 4316
The notion of Bolg chasing Gandalf or matching the power of The Wizard. . . What? come on now! Be serious.

This matter managed to hijack another thread which wasn't really made for it. Here is one specifically for it.

To wit, the argument is NOT being made that Gandalf is an unhinderable Zeus figure in this story. But I take some issue with the notion, if it is portrayed thus in the films, that a single orc baddy, even a particularly nasty one like Bolg, would be shown as being anything akin to a real match for The Grey Messenger. Consider,

"The Lights went out, the great fire went off into a tower of glowing blue smoke that scattered white sparks amongst the goblins. . . the sparks were burning holes IN the goblins etc."

The Warg scene in LOTR: "In The Wavering Firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow. He rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king. . . stooping like a cloud, he stode to meet the wargs. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. . . it flared with radiance like lightning and his voice rolled like thunder. . . the tree above him burst into a bloom of brilliant flame. . . the fire lept from tree top to tree top etc. etc."

To quote Sam, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't the wolf's belly. . . What did I tell you Mr. Pippin?! Wolves won't get him! That was an eye opener and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head he did!"

He also battles all The Nine Nazgul Lords, wielding in some fashion searing flame and "lightning that leaps up from the ground" from nightfall until dawn. Do any here think Bolg could manage half as much?


Gandalf is limited in his earthly form, and forbidden from matching the power of Sauron with his own Maia power. He is not an all powerful super badass, and I am not suggesting otherwise. He is, however, very powerful. As mighty, in his way, as dread Powers like The Balrog (who, I will remind you, routed an entire kingdom of dwarves, after slaying their kings and many of their warriors, and the very power and fear of whom drove hosts of Elves from Lothlorien. The Dwarves were bold and fierce, and Dain mighty among them, but they would not dare Moria whilst Durin's Bane remained in residence and mastery there, and Dain specifically said that a greater Power than theirs would have to come through Moria before Durin's folk would walk there again. That Power was Gandalf The Grey). He actually was GOING to kill a great number of the goblins, at his own expense,after the warg chase, hurling down like a Thunderbolt as the book described it.. At The Battle of Five armies, he is merely reffered to as "preparing some magic blast". Yet, the lack of mention beyond him preparing some magic blast does not mean he did nothing worth mentioning. Thorin is in large part mentioned because he led a charge and the focus was on his tale, which was soon to end. Beorn played the key role in the saving of Thorin. The Eagles were the fifth army. One cannot assume that Gandalf, Thranduil, Bard, Dain and a host of other notables did not do any impressive fighting just because Tolkien didn't spend a paragraph of "oh by the way and in the meantime" on each of them.

I am not suggesting for a moment that Gandalf would come through wielding unstoppable Dumbledore spells, but let us dispense right now with the utterly false notion that he never is shown to do more than shine some damn light in people's faces, as some have suggested. Peter may have portrayed it thus (and actually, even Peter actually gives him much more powers than some seem willing to credit him withm and certainly more than enough to overwhelm any lone goblin or orc in combat), but in the books he is clearly shown to wield notable Power, and "while he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight place." As Strider puts it, "I do not know of anything that could have hindered him, save The Enemy Himself. But do not give up hope! Gandalf is greater than you Shire-Folk know. As a rule you can see only his jokes and toys. . ." Aragorn later says, as they journey through Moria, "Do not be afraid! Do not be afraid. I have been with Gandalf on many a journey, if never one so dark, and there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any I have seen."

Lets not totally disregard the books in making our assesments. Gandalf did not storm about the world in an overwhelming godform, but he was a Force to be reckoned with, and beyond the recokoning of any singular orc warrior. For these films to suggest otherwise would not only disrespect Gandalf. . . it would rather badly downplay and disprespect the dread power of The Balrog.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 1:22am


Views: 2345
My take

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bolg isn't being depicted as just an orc, but as some kind of supernatural, necromantic, can't-be-killed, liquid-metal bad juju. I don't think that will make you (or me) feel any better, but at least Gandalf isn't a wuss.

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 1:34am


Views: 2321
I think that's what is happening

Bolg is being depicted as some sort of Boldog, and he may even be a zombie, to boot...

Gandalf vs. big zombie Boldog?

Tough call. Smile


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 1:48am


Views: 2160
You may be right.

If so, I agree on both your subsequent points, provided that build Bolg up as such. Some manner of, as SAppetite's link suggested, demon bred orc. An evil, bizzaro distort on Luthien, some spawn of goblin and evil Maiar. It would stretch the legendaria a bit (or a lot), but if properly explained, it could work on the threat credibility level. That said, it would take alot of explaining, and I think it would be better and more fitting (and less requiring of tortured explicating) if Gandalf were simply confronted by shadowy Maiar demons, of far less magnitude and rank than a Balrog of course, or by The Nazgul.

In Reply To
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Bolg isn't being depicted as just an orc, but as some kind of supernatural, necromantic, can't-be-killed, liquid-metal bad juju. I don't think that will make you (or me) feel any better, but at least Gandalf isn't a wuss.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 2 2012, 1:56am


Views: 2188
maybe I'm in the minority here but...

I don't see a problem with the way it was written. Bolg being the son of Azog who was beheaded by Dain years before the events of the Hobbit. And Bolg being simply just a large Goblin/orc whatever PJ is calling them now days. All this zombie, undead supernatural stuff is just a bunch of Peter Jackson made up fan fiction nonsense to me. Just proves he wouldn't know a good story if it crept up and bit him on the backside.MadTongueMad... He just has to mess with it until its made into something that it wasn't and try and call it good film making and too many people just suck it up as "he knows what he is doing"...IMO obviously he doesn't know what he's doing if he has to creep this far from the source material to make an entertaining set of films UnsureMadMadMad


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 2:02am


Views: 2035
I'm glad he SA posted the link

I've posted links back to my original supposition that Bolg might be a Boldog a few times, but the Wikipedia article (with the quote I had been posting from HoME X contained in note 5) sums it up better and in the context of the early character.

As I posted earlier in the Yazneg thread, I think that character might be the demonic force underlying Azog's and Bolg's—one that may have a particular enmity toward the Dwarves (since I'm guessing the two flayed faces hanging from his belt may be Thrór's and Thrain's, and he may give one of these to Bolg to wear.)

Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 2:03am


Views: 2017
I agree with you as well

I thought "undead" as soon as I saw the picture of Bolg that was under the Bridge Direct action figure. Kind of weird but we'll see how it goes...I really like the beard-trophy on Bolg though! Smile But now I'm getting completely off topic. Tongue


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:07am


Views: 2068
Gandalf is powerful...

Gandalf's power limitations are mentioned several times (or at least alluded to) throughout the trilogy.

Forgive me for not finding quotes and paraphrasing:

When he was preparing to rescue the Dwarves from the Misty Mountain Goblins, he mentioned that he spent some TIME conjuring up his magic. In order for it to be as powerful as it was, he needed to actually focus and prepare it.

In the fight with the Wargs in the treetops, he lit pine cones on fire and tossed... note, he did not send flaming streams or fireballs down at them. He had to have something physical to work with... something that would actually burn. This was further evidenced when the Fellowship was trudging up Caradhras. He told Legolas (I think) that he couldn't light snow on fire, he needed dry wood in order for his conjuring to work.

When faced with the Balrog on the outside of the chamber of Mazarbul, after the balrog shattered his spell, I believe he mentioned that he didn't have the TIME to conjure a more powerful spell.

Those are just a couple of examples. His magic with the Trolls was deceptive and not really offensive. His fight with the Wargs in The Fellowship showed a bit more power, but again, I think he had a little more time to prepare as they knew (from the howls) that the Warg pack was approaching.

As Gandalf the White, I got the feeling that he was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and that his magic was enhanced. So, anything he did in that form, I think shouldn't be counted in the argument.

So, using those examples as precedent, being attacked unprepared by a very physically powerful and imposing orc, I don't feel it's too outlandish to have Gandalf be on his heels for a bit. He was never shown in the books having a one-on-one physical battle with another character, so I think it will be interesting and new (to the audience) to see that Gandalf IS vulnerable, physically.


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:11am


Views: 2122
wow

All this hate for something that's not even fact? Everyone is jumping to some MASSIVE conclusions based on very little evidence and lots of supposition. There have been some minor snippets of information regarding the necromancer and Bolg/Azog and how they will relate to each other and the story as a whole. If (IF!) Bolg is an undead demonic posessed orc looking for revenge on the dwarves, then.... lame. It'll probably make for some exciting and intense film, but not The Hobbit. Either way, I'm waiting until there's some evidence (as in my butt in the theater seat, my eyes seeing images) before I write off an entire movie...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 2:11am


Views: 2155
I totally agree, EXCEPT, if Peter is determined to make Bolg a threat to Gandalf.

As I said, I would MUCH rather the whole thing be handled very differently, but if Peter insists on Bolg being Gandalf's primary opponent in the Dol Guldur search, and the main threat facing him (defying all logic on so many levels. . . where is the threat from the actual Necromancer, for one!?), then Bolg has to be something much more than just a Lurtz and Ugluk prototype.

In Reply To
I don't see a problem with the way it was written. Bolg being the son of Azog who was beheaded by Dain years before the events of the Hobbit. And Bolg being simply just a large Goblin/orc whatever PJ is calling them now days. All this zombie, undead supernatural stuff is just a bunch of Peter Jackson made up fan fiction nonsense to me. Just proves he wouldn't know a good story if it crept up and bit him on the backside.MadTongueMad... He just has to mess with it until its made into something that it wasn't and try and call it good film making and too many people just suck it up as "he knows what he is doing"...IMO obviously he doesn't know what he's doing if he has to creep this far from the source material to make an entertaining set of films UnsureMadMadMad


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 2:15am


Views: 2072
whoa whoa whoa whoa

I missed something somewhere. Someone clue me in on what the speculation is and where it began.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:17am


Views: 2068
that's just it..

That's all this is. RAMPANT speculation with no foundation. An action figure 2 pack depicting (assumedly) a confrontation between Gandalf and Bolg.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 2:20am


Views: 2010
okay i see

I was expecting to find a big derail on one of the other threads like AinurOlorin was talking about but I didn't really notice any.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


grinman
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 2:23am


Views: 1984
3 pages back

It's from a thread that AinurOlorin started that's dropped to page 3. It's another one of these making-up-things-to-worry-about threads.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 2:24am


Views: 2129
Great Goblin and Boldogs

I remember there was some talk that the Great Goblin could have also been a Maiar spirit. Strange, I would have thought PJ play that up for all it's worth rather than with Bolg.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


DarkJackal
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 3:28am


Views: 1894
Know what you mean

I missed all this too Smile Guess I better go back and read all these threads in order!

Oh, right, not actually going to do that Evil



The Hobbit Photo Gallery

(This post was edited by DarkJackal on Oct 2 2012, 3:29am)


Istaris'staffs
Rivendell


Oct 2 2012, 3:33am


Views: 1955
I think you're over reacting a little.

I mean, first off, Bolg and Gandalf may have an extended type duel in AUJ. Think about this from the point of view of a toy manufacturer. "Oh, lookie here, a cool action scene, little boys will love it if we put the action figures together!" See? You're extrapolating from a very small amount of information. Who knows what will happen. And again, as you said, Gandalf is NOT portrayed as incredibly magical or incredibly powerful in the movies. You have to separate that from the books.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 3:49am


Views: 1932
I take your point about it taking time for Gandalf to muster strong spells, however that overlooks what first happened with the goblins.

you forget the several Goblins (at least six, and probably as many as 10, for there were 6 for each dwarf and 4 even for Bilbo) who were struck dead by the Wizard's lightning upon trying to grab him. A very serious omission if we are really considering what he was capable of doing, even in front of others. It also happened in an instant. The goblins were on the company within seconds of Bilbo's scream, but as is written, ". . . but not Gandalf. When goblins came for him there was a flash like lightning. . . and several of them fell dead. Where was Gandalf? Of that neither the dwarves nor the goblins had any idea. . ." And as the goblin driver says, "several of our people were struck by lightning when they invited these creatures into our home, and they are as dead as stones!"

As to the contest of magic with The Balrog for control of the door to The Chamber of Marzabul, their powers were roughly matched, as was their Wizardry/demonic sorcery. The Balrog was able to begin forcing the door open, and Gandalf placed a command upon it. The dueling magics proved too great a strain on the door itself, and the backlash of energy from the conflicitng spells burst the door and caused a large part of the chamber to be destroyed. It is true that Gandalf lacked the time to cast a more efficient spell, and he says so. But he was able to still work formidable magic in a pinch.

The question is, would that magic be sufficient to overwhelm one lone goblin or orc in a pinch, even a mighty orc lie Bolg. All evidence is that the answer should be a hard and definitive yes.

In Reply To
Gandalf's power limitations are mentioned several times (or at least alluded to) throughout the trilogy.

Forgive me for not finding quotes and paraphrasing:

When he was preparing to rescue the Dwarves from the Misty Mountain Goblins, he mentioned that he spent some TIME conjuring up his magic. In order for it to be as powerful as it was, he needed to actually focus and prepare it.

In the fight with the Wargs in the treetops, he lit pine cones on fire and tossed... note, he did not send flaming streams or fireballs down at them. He had to have something physical to work with... something that would actually burn. This was further evidenced when the Fellowship was trudging up Caradhras. He told Legolas (I think) that he couldn't light snow on fire, he needed dry wood in order for his conjuring to work.

When faced with the Balrog on the outside of the chamber of Mazarbul, after the balrog shattered his spell, I believe he mentioned that he didn't have the TIME to conjure a more powerful spell.

Those are just a couple of examples. His magic with the Trolls was deceptive and not really offensive. His fight with the Wargs in The Fellowship showed a bit more power, but again, I think he had a little more time to prepare as they knew (from the howls) that the Warg pack was approaching.

As Gandalf the White, I got the feeling that he was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey and that his magic was enhanced. So, anything he did in that form, I think shouldn't be counted in the argument.

So, using those examples as precedent, being attacked unprepared by a very physically powerful and imposing orc, I don't feel it's too outlandish to have Gandalf be on his heels for a bit. He was never shown in the books having a one-on-one physical battle with another character, so I think it will be interesting and new (to the audience) to see that Gandalf IS vulnerable, physically.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 3:52am


Views: 1951
Even in the movies, where his powers seem at times sadly diminished from what the novels describe,

his powers are more than sufficient for subdoing an orc. If you can toss Saruman The White around for even a little while, and defy the demon enchanted, enormous, flaming blade of a Balrog, one orc should be quite managable. Also, in the trailer we see him splitting an enormous mound of solid stone in half to allow the sunlight to shine through on the trolls, so these films may be restoring some of his magnitude of power in that regard.

In Reply To
I mean, first off, Bolg and Gandalf may have an extended type duel in AUJ. Think about this from the point of view of a toy manufacturer. "Oh, lookie here, a cool action scene, little boys will love it if we put the action figures together!" See? You're extrapolating from a very small amount of information. Who knows what will happen. And again, as you said, Gandalf is NOT portrayed as incredibly magical or incredibly powerful in the movies. You have to separate that from the books.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 3:54am


Views: 1994
It isn't just the toy. Something is chasing a rather concerned Gandalf through the corridors of Dol Guldur

in the trailer. The question is, is the something Bolg, and if so, is he alone, and if that is also true, why in the world should he be portrayed as being so threatening to Gandalf, who even in his limited incarnate form is reckoned as one of The Powers of The Third Age within the confines of Middle Earth.

In Reply To
That's all this is. RAMPANT speculation with no foundation. An action figure 2 pack depicting (assumedly) a confrontation between Gandalf and Bolg.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 2 2012, 4:57am


Views: 1936
I'm at a bit of a loss

...as to where you've come up with all the notions in your post, and why it upsets you so.

If I'm following it correctly from reading the previously 'hijacked' thread, you've become rather shockingly upset by some toy packaging and some off-the-cuff speculation about it by a few users here. I'm just wondering how you could possibly get from the point A (toy packaging and speculation) to point B (strongly upset), from the evidence (or lack thereof)?


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





dubulous
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 5:05am


Views: 1810
I agree

There's plenty in the books that shows there were limitations to Gandal's power. It's only as Gadalf the White that he really came to possess more of that power he as a maia would have, but as Gandalf the Grey his power, as it were, lied more in his wisdom than power in battle, even though he obviously was more powerful than your average man or elf or dwarf.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 5:13am


Views: 1895
I find it vastly amusing

I'm sorry, but I do. Hope it turns out in a way that I, you, AND AinurOlorin (and even Shelob'sAppetite) all end up liking (or at least not hating). Meanwhile, the earth will still keep orbiting around the sun, rotating daily.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 5:39am


Views: 1901
Agreed

Though I think it perfectly fair to make educated guesses about what may be in store for us, based on past experience (in this case, PJ's treatment of Gandalf's 'magic' in LOTR), hints from merchandise, etc.

There was a significant amount of such speculation prior to LOTR, and a non-trivial amount of that speculation turned out to be true. So, it's not wholly futile.

Plus, isn't this at least part of what boards like these are for? To speculate, based on small scraps of information, as opposed to testing hypotheses, based on large amounts of evidence?

Ainur may very well be correct in his fears. Or he may not be.

But let's not judge his mad speculation too harshly. It is a way of passing the time, and preparing (or desensitizing) oneself for what's to come.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 5:52am


Views: 1841
hehe


In Reply To
It is a way of passing the time, and preparing (or desensitizing) oneself for what's to come.


It's also a way of raising our blood pressure throughout the dayWink

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


macfalk
Valinor


Oct 2 2012, 6:21am


Views: 1546
He is not that powerful in The Hobbit.

Note that he dreaded, even expected being killed by wargs in Out of the frying pan. Would LOTR-Gandalf, aka SuperImmortalMegaGandalf? I doubt it.

That's why I like The Hobbit so much. Gandalf isn't this super-immortal wizard very unlike the other fellows in the company.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 7:01am


Views: 1528
Ainur is not saying

That Gandalf is SuperImmortalMegaGandalf. He is just arguing that he is capable enough to not be threatened by one orc, no matter how big and bad (the wargs are a different story, as there are lots and lots of them).

Though Ainur has conceded that if this orc (Bolg) is portrayed as some sort of lesser Maiar spirit (a so-called Boldog), it could be acceptable for him to face Gandalf mano a mano.



macfalk
Valinor


Oct 2 2012, 7:14am


Views: 1499
I wasn't saying that Ainur said it

I said that Gandalf is SuperImmortalMegaGandalf! (In LOTR). Joke aside, but he's just way too powerful to my taste - another pet peeve of mine when it comes to LOTR. This character of Gandalf, who dies and can be resurrected at will. No sense of danger or threat, as with Gandalf, the main players are basically safe.

In The Hobbit, we get the sense that Gandalf is a kind of powerful wizard who can do wonderful things, but that's kind of it - no divine Valar intervention or mentions of that he's a sort of immortal demi-god. I love that. It makes the journey the company in TH goes through much more realistic and threatening and humane and we can relate to it. When Gandalf faces the Witch-King in LOTR, we know he won't lose, and if he would, it would not have been such a big deal. He'd probably been "sent back to complete his task a second time Unimpressed" As you can see, I'm not a big fan of how Tolkien made him this demi-god creature in LOTR. In TH he's just a wizard.

That's also one of the reasons I was never bothered with the scene in ROTK-EE where the Witch-King takes down Gandalf and smashes his staff to pieces. I liked that. It gave us the sense that anything could happen, unlike the books, even to our dear Mithrandir.

As always, IMO.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Oct 2 2012, 7:15am)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 2 2012, 7:58am


Views: 1537
I also didnt find Ainur

'shockingly upset'. He was discussing his concerns in logical and well thought out terms, a thread is for discussing and it shouldnt be shut down just because it doesnt suit some peoples ideas. its a thread like many, I dont see the problem. Its ALL speculation at this point, as none of us have seen the film.


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Oct 2 2012, 8:01am)


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 8:17am


Views: 1587
Bolg is not "an orc"

Bolg is a hero orc, a warrior on a par with Thorin, Aragorn, Boromir, etc.

And Gandalf (and Maia in general) has far less raw power than many of you seem to imagine.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 2 2012, 8:18am


Views: 1527
I beg to

differ.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 2 2012, 10:48am


Views: 1541
How do we know

that it is Bolg and not the Necromancer that is being portrayed as the source of Gandalf's fear? In the Bolg description released a while ago it said "Bolg is the offspring of Azog the Desecarator – like his father, he is huge pale orc. He is the overseer in the dungeons of Dol Guldur – torturing is his hobby. He garnishes his armor with the bones and the blood of his victims. This husky Orc fears nothing and nobody – until he suddenly meets an unexpected opponent."

I don't see how that leads us to think Bolg will be a big threat to Gandalf. If anything, the description implies it is the other way around.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


triptrap
Lorien

Oct 2 2012, 11:36am


Views: 1422
I can see no reason to worry about this stuff

after all, what we've got are only some hints. But i must confess: the idea,if true, of Bolg being able to take down Gandalf would suck terribly to me too.Crazy

reading through the posts in this thread i always thought: why is there nobody who comes up with the actual description of bolg. And thank you Aitieuriskon, there we have it =) looks to me like it is the other way around as well


Carne
Tol Eressea

Oct 2 2012, 11:56am


Views: 1466
There we go

To me this implies that Bolg is used to being the big, bad orc who no one messes with, until Gandalf shows up and opens a can of whoop-ass.


dave_lf
Gondor

Oct 2 2012, 12:22pm


Views: 1425
Who says Bolg will give him any trouble at all?

The character description implies that Gandalf defeats him.


stoutfiles
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 12:29pm


Views: 1403
Movie Gandalf isn't that powerful

The Balrog scene being the one exception.

He uses his "blinding light' tactic twice while on a horse, but other than that he fights in battle with skill equal to that of a good human fighter. He even almost dies in RotK as Gandalf the White...to a simple orc, if not for Pippin saving him.

For continuity sake, Movie Gandalf will be the same in The Hobbit, powerful when there's seemingly no hope, otherwise equal to that of Aragorn in terms of leading and fighting skill.


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 1:42pm


Views: 1383
You see for me

Gandalf simply blasting an orc general apart would conflict with the Tolkien I read.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Oct 2 2012, 2:27pm


Views: 1366
sinister71

All this zombie, undead supernatural stuff is just a bunch of Peter Jackson made up fan fiction nonsense to me. Just proves he wouldn't know a good story if it crept up and bit him on the backside.MadTongueMad...

Apart from the very misplaced consideration about jackson here , IMO...if you wish to throw daggers at someone, throw them at TOLKIEN. He named this character NECROMANCER thus leading us to believe that he practiced NECROMANCY, ie, dark arts, witchcraft, rising the dead, etc...Tolkien opened this box when he decided to name the dark presence in Mirkwood as the necromancer. If he's the necromancer, then surely we should see necromancy being done all over the place or the remainders of it. Its not made up fanfiction, its the director following, developing and exploring what Tolkien wrote. Wether it shall be good or bad, it remains to be seen.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Oct 2 2012, 2:34pm


Views: 1418
Here's the definition of "Necromancy"


Quote
1. The supposed practice of communicating with the dead, esp. in order to predict the future.
2. Witchcraft, sorcery, or black magic in general.



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 2 2012, 2:52pm


Views: 1299
I'm not

judging or shutting down anything. I'm a user here too and enjoy participating in the discussions just like everyone else. What I read wasn't couched as educated guesses; it was presented as foregone conclusions going off on tangents that seem to have been drawn out of thin air. I truly am having trouble following the logic of how one can draw foregone conclusions from a toy box and some people batting around some ideas about it.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 2 2012, 3:10pm


Views: 1359
Call me sensitive

but, posting in bold-face and using four-letter explatives usually conveys to me that someone is upset. I *am* allowed to post as a user here every now and then Laugh, and I'm certainly not trying to shut anything down. As a user/fan It just truly escapes me that 100% pure speculation could spark so many 'concerns' and so much agitation. One can discuss concerns in logical terms, but it doesn't mean the concerns themselves are logical. I was just trying to understand the logic of arriving at so many conclusions from what seems to me to be so little evidence. Crazy


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 4:28pm


Views: 1279
Agreed

Ainur does seem to be upset by these possibilities, as his posting style has conveyed.

But IMO, it's more amusing than troubling. Smile


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm


Views: 1306
Deep breaths needed?

I think while some need to walk away and then come back to post. While some speciation is fun if it gets you upset you gotta walk away. I don't think Bolg will do anything other than battle Gandalf and then die.



The Preciousss
Bree

Oct 2 2012, 4:35pm


Views: 1411
I can totally see Azog desecrating the corpse

by ripping off the beard and tossing it to a lil orc child scrambling along his legs, who holds it to his chin smiling. This could be a flashback similar to Smeagol/Deagol...


Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 4:39pm


Views: 1277
And he will know fear...

It is implied in his description that his encounter with gandalf will be the first time he knows fear, so it is probable Gandalf really has the advantage during the duel


Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 4:41pm


Views: 1298
And if it's of any comfort

It is possible that very strong orcs are corrupted maiar who choose to take this corporal form, so Bolg would not be such an insignificant threat if that's his case


Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 4:48pm


Views: 1274
In tolkien, no fight is won in advance

The witch king is defeated by Merry and he was possibly as powerful as gandalf, who is more powerful thand Merry... so battles in Tolkien litterature aren't magic power contest. In fact, it's more about fate making a decision, so Gandalf is not unvulnerable and Bolg could be real threat to him


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 2 2012, 6:45pm


Views: 1238
If Ainur wants to come here and

let off steam, and share some concerns, even if its in BOLD, why not let him? Crazy


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 2 2012, 6:51pm


Views: 1190
Rules

As long as he's not breaking any rules there is no issue.



There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Oct 2 2012, 7:37pm


Views: 1204
I'm so late to this party

Cool

I like the idea of Bolg having dwaf "scalps" a lot. It adds some creepy texture to Middle-Earth's less pleasant peoples.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 2 2012, 7:38pm


Views: 1317
Beorn?


In Reply To
that it is Bolg and not the Necromancer that is being portrayed as the source of Gandalf's fear? In the Bolg description released a while ago it said "Bolg is the offspring of Azog the Desecarator – like his father, he is huge pale orc. He is the overseer in the dungeons of Dol Guldur – torturing is his hobby. He garnishes his armor with the bones and the blood of his victims. This husky Orc fears nothing and nobody – until he suddenly meets an unexpected opponent."

I don't see how that leads us to think Bolg will be a big threat to Gandalf. If anything, the description implies it is the other way around.



As a book-reader, I have assumed that the last bit in the description refers to Bolg encountering Beorn at the Battle of the Five Armies. Now, Bolg may be far more bad-ass than the Great Goblin and it could be that Gandalf is fleeing from him. However, my impression was that Gandalf was running from a more supernatural threat.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 2 2012, 7:55pm


Views: 1238
Of course

everyone is welcome to share concerns, just as others are welcome to ask how they arrived at those concerns and express their own feelings about them. I may just be easily confused today, but I don't see any place that anyone has said otherwise.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm


Views: 1238
That would be a real stretch.

Sounds like a video game and not Tolkien at all.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Oct 2 2012, 10:15pm)


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 2 2012, 10:58pm


Views: 1204
Agreed

and from the wraith scream heard briefly in the trailer I'd say that's the more likely option

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 2 2012, 11:25pm


Views: 1164
Not sure if it's just me

But I'm not quite sure what you mean there Kangi?

Ignoring the histrionics of the OP there are a few points which I think are interesting as an off shoot.

The first is the importance of place. We see on numerous occasions the explicit or implicit influence which the location of characters lend to their "powers", ranging from the seemingly prosaic (e.g. nazgul at Bree) to the well established (e.g. Lorien and Rivendell) and the slightly mysterious (e.g Amon Hen). The goodies benefit from this at various and are hindered by it (Minas Morgul etc). We might well expect Gandalf to face a similar impediment of some sort in the Hill of Sorcery. It is interesting in this context that I think all of Gandalf's descriptions of his visits to Dol Guldur focus on the language of location (passing the doors, avoiding the places it overlooked, ventured in, been in and so forth)

Secondly we also know that Sauron can, with at least one of his servants, led them additional "power" - as we learn of the WK at Minas Tirith from Tolkien's letters. I wonder whether we may see and similar "enhancement" of servants in TH.

LR


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:29pm


Views: 1195
It isn't the merchandising alone. Its a series of things that, put together, could be an issue.

Now, of COURSE there is some speculation involved. This thread is about a concern which I hope will NOT come to pass, not something that is absolutely known and certain.

But as to the speculations basis, it goes beyond the toy. The pairing of the two suggests (strongly) a confrontation. Unless there is to be a very serious deviation from the story, Bolg will still be alive at the Battle of Five Armies, i.e., he clearly survives the confrontation with the greater Power. We have seen Gandalf in Dol Guldur (presumably), looking rather harried and concerned. The question of what is chasing him and troubling him so arises. All the indicators are that the threat is Bolg. And if it is Bolg, will he be alone or leading a larger group of orcs. And if he IS alone. . . how will this be presented. Gandalf The Gray put to the test in a fight to a draw by some Orc captain? Put more to the test than he was battling all Nine RingWraiths atop Amon Sul? Foolishness. I just don't see the upside, IF such a confrontation occurs, to diminishing the mystery and power the book Gives Gandalf (and some of the power is in the mystery), by portraying him as being seriously imperiled by a lone orc captain.

In Reply To
...as to where you've come up with all the notions in your post, and why it upsets you so.

If I'm following it correctly from reading the previously 'hijacked' thread, you've become rather shockingly upset by some toy packaging and some off-the-cuff speculation about it by a few users here. I'm just wondering how you could possibly get from the point A (toy packaging and speculation) to point B (strongly upset), from the evidence (or lack thereof)?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:40pm


Views: 1158
Well that just isn't the story or the Mythos. That is like saying, " I hate that Superman is so strong"

or, "I hate that Dumbledore is at least as talented a wizard as Voldemort." Or, "I wish Godzilla was a more reasonable size. Say 30 feet instead of 300."

Gandalf is very powerful, and I would argue that the Gandalf The Gray of The Hobbit is shown to be just as powerful, in most respects, as the Gandalf The Gray in FOTR.

As to the Divine stuff.. . He is what He is. That is part of his story. He is Holy. A Holy spirit, taking thought for creatures of flesh, and taking on the burdens of this world out of love and compassion. It adds a deeply spiritual component to the entire tale. You may not like it, but you might just as well not like the fact that Galadriel is a poweful Elf Queen, or that the Balrog is an ancient demon rather than just a random monster.

I cannot sign on for misrepresenting a MAJOR character, because some readers didn't like the nature of said character. I would also be disgusted if the deeper and fundemental legendarium of the tales were violated for a cheap "ooooooh, is that ugly orc gonna get Gandalf?" moment in a filmed adaptation.

In Reply To
I said that Gandalf is SuperImmortalMegaGandalf! (In LOTR). Joke aside, but he's just way too powerful to my taste - another pet peeve of mine when it comes to LOTR. This character of Gandalf, who dies and can be resurrected at will. No sense of danger or threat, as with Gandalf, the main players are basically safe.

In The Hobbit, we get the sense that Gandalf is a kind of powerful wizard who can do wonderful things, but that's kind of it - no divine Valar intervention or mentions of that he's a sort of immortal demi-god. I love that. It makes the journey the company in TH goes through much more realistic and threatening and humane and we can relate to it. When Gandalf faces the Witch-King in LOTR, we know he won't lose, and if he would, it would not have been such a big deal. He'd probably been "sent back to complete his task a second time Unimpressed" As you can see, I'm not a big fan of how Tolkien made him this demi-god creature in LOTR. In TH he's just a wizard.

That's also one of the reasons I was never bothered with the scene in ROTK-EE where the Witch-King takes down Gandalf and smashes his staff to pieces. I liked that. It gave us the sense that anything could happen, unlike the books, even to our dear Mithrandir.

As always, IMO.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:51pm


Views: 1143
The Earth would continue to orbit even if Smaug were portrayed as a 200 foot tall kitten

who is lured to the side of good by the sexual favours of Galadriel, and who is subsequently ridden to the fully restored Barad-Dur by Gandalf, who destroys the tower by shooting waves of lightning from his eyes. The Earth would keep turning, but that wouldn't change the fact that The Hobbit had gone WAY off the rails in a way certain to badly upset a great many people. Thus, the continued spinning of the planet does not justify hard to validate alterations to the story.

And then, maybe you are wrong, and improper deviations from the novel in The Hobbit movie will be what caues the 2012 apocalypse! ShockedShockedShocked Tongue lol

In Reply To
I'm sorry, but I do. Hope it turns out in a way that I, you, AND AinurOlorin (and even Shelob'sAppetite) all end up liking (or at least not hating). Meanwhile, the earth will still keep orbiting around the sun, rotating daily.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 11:53pm


Views: 1134
LOL

Smaug as a 200 foot tall kitten is the funniest thing I have seen in a long time. Thanks for the chuckle.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:54pm


Views: 1154
There is some merit to that notion Kangi. The Legendarium does

at least allude to the notion that there were Greater Orcs, who were not really orcs at all, but were rather some of the very least potent types of Maia demons who had taken corperal forms.

In Reply To
Sounds like a video game and not Tolkien at all.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:56pm


Views: 1153
The timing is rather suspect...

or auspicious, depending.


Quote
improper deviations from the novel in The Hobbit movie will be what caues the 2012 apocalypse!



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 11:59pm


Views: 1162
Thanks, my good Elf lady. And to Voronwe, glad you enjoyed,

Wink. I hoped it would amuse at least a little. lol. Thanks also SAppetite, for understanding where I am coming from. I am not saying these things will play out this way. Of course this is speculative, but it is a fear based on a number of factors and hints, which when put together, make it seem like a real possibility that such a scene could be presented.

Someone mentioned hearing a Ringwraith in the trailer. I missed that.

In Reply To
'shockingly upset'. He was discussing his concerns in logical and well thought out terms, a thread is for discussing and it shouldnt be shut down just because it doesnt suit some peoples ideas. its a thread like many, I dont see the problem. Its ALL speculation at this point, as none of us have seen the film.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 12:13am


Views: 1174
seems like a bad deal to me

You are a Maia badass and your buddies get to be Balrogs, Wizards, Spiders, etc. but you get stuck in the lame orc body...Freaky Friday amirite? Crazy

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:16am


Views: 1153
Well, the Balrogs and Wizards (even in the Wizard's limited forms) are Maia of greater

degree and power. The Balrogs were "The Demons of Might" Valarauko, "power demons." They were Melkor's migtiest and most powerful lieutenants, aside from Sauron himself. Not every demon can be one of THOSE demons. lol. And Ungoliant. . . well, Melkor himself could not master her.

In Reply To
You are a Maia badass and your buddies get to be Balrogs, Wizards, Spiders, etc. but you get stuck in the lame orc body...Freaky Friday amirite? Crazy


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:20am


Views: 1157
But is the being he fears Gandalf, or Beorn. It is an important question.

Beorn is terrifying in his own way, and Beorn kills Bolg. Is the packaging alluding to that future event, or to an encounter with The Wizard?

In Reply To
To me this implies that Bolg is used to being the big, bad orc who no one messes with, until Gandalf shows up and opens a can of whoop-ass.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:21am


Views: 1125
I really want a citation on this idea of Maia Orcs.//

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 3 2012, 12:21am


Views: 1104
You're in luck

As it has already been done!


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 3 2012, 12:24am


Views: 1126
It is very faint

and largely eclipsed by Gandalf saying "afraid" but if you listen very closely you can hear it at 2:40 if you use the Gandalf version on the Hobbit movie site.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951

(This post was edited by Aitieuriskon on Oct 3 2012, 12:30am)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 3 2012, 12:32am


Views: 1131
It's in Morgoth's Ring

“For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.” (HoME; Morgoth’s Ring)

LR


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:39am


Views: 1121
Ok I actually found that before you cited it. But this leads to the question

Is Jackson using The History of Middle-earth to script his Hobbit*3?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 3 2012, 12:42am


Views: 1116
It does seem like it, doesn't it?

One might say that the whole Azog revenant theory stemmed not from a reinterpretation of "necromancer" as used in Tolkien but instead from this HoME passage.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:57am


Views: 1141
Mmmm. That must be why when The Balrog showed up, Gandalf told the ENTIRE fellowhship

"Fly! This is a foe beyond ANY (or even all) of you! I must hold the narrow way. . . " and "Swords are of no more use here!"
One of the official companion MOVIE books to the LOTR films even states that the entire fellowship would have been slain by The Balrog if not for Gandalf's presence. But in your imagination, Aragorn or Boromir could have defeated him, for sure. Riiiiight.

In Reply To
Bolg is a hero orc, a warrior on a par with Thorin, Aragorn, Boromir, etc.

And Gandalf (and Maia in general) has far less raw power than many of you seem to imagine.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Oct 3 2012, 12:57am)


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2012, 1:16am


Views: 1109
Verrryyy interesting...

*twirls moustache*

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 2:24am


Views: 1098
Spent too much time on Bilbo's contract

and not enough on the subtleties of the licence agreement.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 2:27am


Views: 1127
You said blast apart, not me. But, unless the Tolkien you read had missing pages,

he does "blast" close to a dozen goblins dead when they try to seize him, and essentially dissapears from the scene, not showing up again until the even more spectacular display in The Great Goblins chamber.

Killing a handful of goblins with something akin to a lightning bolt does not mean he could do that fifty times in a row in a single day without dropping from exhaustion and overexertion (after his magical contest against The Balrog for control of the door to The Chamber of Marzabul, he had to rest from even lighting his wand/staff). However, it almost certainly means he could kill one big goblin with such a blast, in a pinch, if he really needed to. Even if the goblins were as small as Bilbo, 3 feet and some inches tall and between 50 to 80 pounds, if you put them all together you would have one huge orc. . . a bear, really.

In Reply To
Gandalf simply blasting an orc general apart would conflict with the Tolkien I read.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 3 2012, 7:45am


Views: 1250
Tolkien deals with spiritual conflict differently to physical

As we see with in "Flight to the Ford". Mortals have minimal presence in the spiritual plane. Aragorn has a little, because of his distant elven ancestry. Legolas would have more, but, being Sindar not Noldor, not enough. The rest of the party have none at all (apart from Frodo, who could hypothetically have used the ring, had he had the skill and knowledge).

Glorfindel, Elrond, or Galadriel would have been able to fight the Balrog at least as effectively as Gandalf, since they are all fully present on the spiritual plane.

So, it's not a matter of raw power, it's simply a matter of Gandalf being the only person able to meet the Balrog on the spiritual plane. Against purely physical opponents, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimili are more powerful than Gandalf, as seen against the cave troll.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


geordie
Tol Eressea

Oct 3 2012, 12:26pm


Views: 1195
Hmm?

- it was Frodo who saw off the cave troll - stabbed him in his foot, I believe.
.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:27pm


Views: 1161
From where are you drawing this idea of spiritual presence?//

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 3 2012, 1:37pm


Views: 1143
And Boromir's strength that forced the door closed

A purely physical enemy is defeated by purely physical means. (ok, so there was some enchantment of Frodo's blade that no doubt helped a bit...)

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Oct 3 2012, 1:38pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 2:40pm


Views: 1131
It seems that you have a personal theory regarding power & spirituality

in Tolkien's writing yet you come off as though this is a given fact. Please enlighten me if this is not so.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 3 2012, 2:52pm


Views: 1137
I'm suprised it needs to be explained on a fan site

Since it is a central concept in LotR.

It's most obvious when Frodo is slipping into the wrath world at the Ford. Glorfindel has a strong presence, Aragorn is weakly visible, and the rest have no presence at all.

Those who Elrond says "can ride openly against The Nine" all have Noldor and or Maia blood.

But we also see it in Galadriel's struggle to shield Lorien from Sauron, with the help of her ring. (Implicitly Elrond does the same for Rivendell).

There are many other examples.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 2:54pm


Views: 1068
Interesting theory...//

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Beren0nehanded
Bree


Oct 3 2012, 4:25pm


Views: 1086
Bilbo was meant to find the ring . . .


In Reply To
The witch king is defeated by Merry and he was possibly as powerful as gandalf, who is more powerful thand Merry... so battles in Tolkien litterature aren't magic power contest. In fact, it's more about fate making a decision, so Gandalf is not unvulnerable and Bolg could be real threat to him


Hmm your title to this post is "In Tolkien, no fight is won in advance" and yet your argument is that fate ultimately decides. Tongue

Don't be hasty.


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2012, 4:43pm


Views: 1066
I don't really agree with this

The last time the Valar and Maia went at solving a problem with force, it reshaped a continent. That is the reason the Maia / Istari are restrained in their use of power. It is quite plain that if they were to unleash real force, very many physical things would perish.

The Maia are no slouches, remember Melain's Girdle?

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 4:46pm


Views: 1098
There have been arguments about free will versus fate for ages.

As far as I know these have not been settled.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 5:48pm


Views: 1153
Gandalf and Bolg will meet,

why would they be in the same action figure pack otherwise ?
And if they are to meet, they will either fight or become best buddies, wich I would find a lot more disturbing


Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 6:42pm


Views: 1071
Yeah, I could have been clearer ^^

What I meant was : we can't guess rationally what should happen like in real world, because causality is not the only force at work. Fate can interfere anytime, and since we are not in capacity to guess what he will decides, we can't affirm "This will happen" or "this can't happen" in advance. From our point of view, anything can happen, even a hobbit slaying a dark lord. But in the end there is only one possible road for the events, wich can be called fate, or Tolkien's will in the books, and finally Jackson's vision in the films.
Hum... I'm not sure I made myself any clearer...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 7:18pm


Views: 1078
At least as effective against. . . What is your evidence? I think your approach is more D&D

than that of myself or some others. Gandalf said it best, "Against some I have not yet been tested." There were not the sort of given conclusions with Powers against Powers, at that level, which you seem to suggest. The High Elves were generally terrified of Balrogs, and few ever managed to defeat one, and NO High Elf in the recorded history of Arda ever survived a battle with one of The Demons of Might, though Glorfindel was reincarnated for his valour. There is no guaruntee that Elrond would have survived against The Balrog, or even that Glorfindel would have defeated or Galadriel would have defeated it. Balrogs were mighty Maiar spirits. The mightiest, aside from Sauron himself, to follow Morgoth, and the first to follow him, even when Sauron was still technically numbered among the People of Aule.

Above all things, The Balrog was really a threat to Lothlorien, which would probably have become manifest once Sauron launched his war, had Gandalf not already come through and vanquished the ancient Thane of Melkor The Morgoth. And perhaps the Wizard's "heart" led him thither for that purpose. As Galadriel said, "Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf. Those who followed him did not know his mind, and cannot report his full purpose."

What? As seen against the cave troll in the movies?????? I guess you missed Aragorn telling the Hobbits to "stay close to Gandalf!" Read between the lines, "Gandalf can protect you best if things go really badly here." I guess you are also forgotting the FULLY ARMOURED OLAG HAI mountain, battle Troll, both larger and better armed than The Cave Troll, whom Gandalf slew with A SINGLE STROKE of his sword in ROTK!!!! You know what. Nevermind. I don't know if its that you don't really care much for the old Wizard, or you just prefer to think of him as weaker than the evidence shows him to have been, but you are pulling a lot of very poorly founded assumptions out of the gaseous air, and I really don't think there is much point in us debating it further, as there will clearly be no consensus .

In Reply To
As we see with in "Flight to the Ford". Mortals have minimal presence in the spiritual plane. Aragorn has a little, because of his distant elven ancestry. Legolas would have more, but, being Sindar not Noldor, not enough. The rest of the party have none at all (apart from Frodo, who could hypothetically have used the ring, had he had the skill and knowledge).

Glorfindel, Elrond, or Galadriel would have been able to fight the Balrog at least as effectively as Gandalf, since they are all fully present on the spiritual plane.

So, it's not a matter of raw power, it's simply a matter of Gandalf being the only person able to meet the Balrog on the spiritual plane. Against purely physical opponents, Aragorn, Boromir, Legolas and Gimili are more powerful than Gandalf, as seen against the cave troll.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 7:44pm


Views: 1043
I agree with you IN PART, but with lots of caveats

Your statment about Merry and Eowyn vs. The Witch King is a good one, and one I have made myself (though The Witch King would only have really been as powerful as Gandalf, if a great part of Sauron's will and strength were focused upon/lent into him, I think), but I don't think this suggests that anybody can beat anybody else on any given day, depending on the weather.

Fate is really just a manifestation of Greater Powers, whether those powers be of The Ainur, Maia and/or Valar (Melkor included) or, at the highest degree, of Eru Himself. Those Supreme Powers may, in ascending orders, trump the will and force of lesser Powers. If The Will of Eru Predetermines a moment or event, even the very Mighty will not prevail against it, even if His instrument is one of the weak.

So Glorfindel, who would likely have been more than a match of The Witch King in 1975 of The Third Age ( when Sauron was both still in hiding, with no hope yet of recovering his Great Ring, and in a much weaker state than we find him by the time of FellowhshipOTR) makes no attempt to pursue the fleeing Nazgul Lord, forseeing that the time for the villains fall is not at hand.

But I don't think these films are going to be able to adequately convey the notion that it is the power of Sauron or of Melkor from Afar that is actually giving Bolg a chance against Gandalf (should it come to that). It certainly wasn't made clear in the ROTK EE abomination scene. For the laymen viewer, it would simply look as though Gandalf were being put to a hard test by a single orc captain. And the questions of "why doesn't he use/why didn't he just" would certainly come up, because even without looking to the books and with just other film (hobbit and LOTR) events as a refference, Gandalf has been seen/will be seen to do enough things (Balrog fight, Saruman fight etc.) which suggest that he ought to be able to put a pretty thorough smackdown on any lone orc that dared to confront him.

In Reply To
The witch king is defeated by Merry and he was possibly as powerful as gandalf, who is more powerful thand Merry... so battles in Tolkien litterature aren't magic power contest. In fact, it's more about fate making a decision, so Gandalf is not unvulnerable and Bolg could be real threat to him


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 7:45pm


Views: 1036
Well said, Tim.

Well said.

In Reply To
The last time the Valar and Maia went at solving a problem with force, it reshaped a continent. That is the reason the Maia / Istari are restrained in their use of power. It is quite plain that if they were to unleash real force, very many physical things would perish.

The Maia are no slouches, remember Melain's Girdle?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 3 2012, 8:04pm


Views: 1028
Oddly the LOTR films have established a sort of consistency.

If I recall correctly, Gandalf only uses "magic" against other "magical" foes and physical means against physical foes. I wonder will that be maintained in TH. Even more oddly, I suppose, Saruman seems to abide by the same sportsmanship!

But more generally Im not sure audiences of the film or the text tend to think in practice quite the way you suggest. The "why doesn't he use" question could, after all, be levelled at Gandalf in the text on numerous occasions, but tend not to be.

LR


Fàfnir
Rohan


Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm


Views: 1024
There is some kind of explanation i think

This thing about Nazgul being hardly consistent in the material world, because they are ghost, and frodo going in the spirit's world when he's stabbed by them : it implies the existence of two parallel realities, connected by the beings that are existent on both, like the istaris or the balrogs. And just like it's useless to try to harm a total spirit with a sword, it may be useless to try to harm a troll, which is only existent in the material world, with magic, if we suppose magic to be some spiritual force... but I'm not sure.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 8:22pm


Views: 1048
Not if the trailer is any indication. If you look at the Troll scene,

he actuall splits that hill sized rock in half when he strikes it. Compare Trailer one with Trailer two. It is a solid and enormous mound of rock, which splits in half after his staff blow.

Also, Saruman did conjure a storm from 100 leagues away to try to blow the entire fellowship off the mountain side.


I agree, to an extent, on the "why wouldn't he?" question, but I was actually underlining that in response to other posters "why woulen't he just" suggestions. I agree, that isn't the big deal some make it, but I have seen people suggest that Gandalf shouldn't be shown doing the magic he performs in The Hobbit novel, because "people will ask, 'why didn't he do that during x, y z film in Fellowship." I have also pointed out to those posters that, in Fellowship, Gandalf is really only with the company from Rivendell through Moria, and they are only confronted by foes in Moria, where it can reasonably be assumed that Gandalf would abstain from using his powers against orcs and trolls, if he could at all avoid it, knowing that he might need his full power in the event of a confrontation with The Balrog, as he knows The Balrog inhabits Moria in the films. But, you know, you can't tell some folks anything. lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Oct 3 2012, 8:26pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm


Views: 1019
I think

The first is quite indirect (I'm not sure this is quite similar to using "magic" to attack the trolls). But who knows we may see direct magic against goblins and wolves and whatnot.

The second example certainly includes the potential for collateral damage (much as Saruman's fireball in ROTK) but the primary foe in both cases is Gandalf - certainly he is present and defending against the attacks. This seems to be in contrast with, say, the attack of the ents, where Saruman is magicless in his response.

LR


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 8:30pm


Views: 1047
Spirit trumps flesh.

Certainly the Balrog was a menace and perilous threat both Physically and Spirtually.The Nazgul could hurt other's well enough. But, events in the books cancel the notion that magic cannot harm material beings, as evinced by the Goblins killed by Gandalf's blast, burned by his sparks, the wargs engulfed by his flames etc. etc.

Though that magic might not be a pure manifestation of Spirit, so much as Spiritual power enhancing natural forces for greater effect.

In Reply To
This thing about Nazgul being hardly consistent in the material world, because they are ghost, and frodo going in the spirit's world when he's stabbed by them : it implies the existence of two parallel realities, connected by the beings that are existent on both, like the istaris or the balrogs. And just like it's useless to try to harm a total spirit with a sword, it may be useless to try to harm a troll, which is only existent in the material world, with magic, if we suppose magic to be some spiritual force... but I'm not sure.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


geordie
Tol Eressea

Oct 3 2012, 8:44pm


Views: 1021
Not to seem mulish -

- that is, it ain't my aim in this thread to go round correcting people - Smile - but it wasn't Gandalf who killed the troll; it was yet another hobbit, Pippin (with yet another 'written blade of Westernesse'). Gandalf seems to have spent his time during the brief battle at the gates standing on the hill, till he gives the shout: 'The eagles are coming!'

Come to think of it - I can't think of a time when Gandalf the White is described as using his sword..

.


(This post was edited by geordie on Oct 3 2012, 8:46pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 9:18pm


Views: 1008
In the movie, Geordie. Fandragon was speaking of the movie killing of Trolls,

and in ROTK, Gandalf rides past one of the Olag Hai in Goldor and single handeldy slays it with a single swipe of Glamdring.

In Reply To
- that is, it ain't my aim in this thread to go round correcting people - Smile - but it wasn't Gandalf who killed the troll; it was yet another hobbit, Pippin (with yet another 'written blade of Westernesse'). Gandalf seems to have spent his time during the brief battle at the gates standing on the hill, till he gives the shout: 'The eagles are coming!'

Come to think of it - I can't think of a time when Gandalf the White is described as using his sword..

.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tim
Tol Eressea


Oct 4 2012, 5:37am


Views: 949
Thanks

I think you and I are pretty much on the same page as far as Gandalf is concerned and how we want PJ to portray him as an Istari in the movies.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 4 2012, 8:30am


Views: 1047
Good company : - )

Wink And in this case, the same way is pretty much just as the books portray him. I think you are right to say you and I are in strong agreement there. The novels don't give the notion that he is some unhinderable, badass who can win all of the quests on his own, but they do portray him as a Power, within the confines of the Powers still visibly active in Middle Earth in The Third Age. He is portrayed as a being who is, even in his limited manlike form, mightier than a mortal, though that might was often hidden. He is portrayed as a formidable force to be reckoned with, even against daunting odds and Dark Powers.


I think that lay viewers of the film should see Gandalf in much the same way that the characters around him do. Initially, as just a mysterious old man with a reputation for adventure and uncanny cleverness and talents. Then, whether to entertain or to make a point, he performs some minor marvel (darkening a room, for example, or turning smoke rings into a flock of coloured smoke birds) that validates that reputation for the uncanny talents and cleverness. Later, in a pinch, he performs some reasonably marvellous feat which none of the rest of you (normal audience members and his companions alike) could have managed, and which you all know you couldn't have managed, and everyone comes to the recognition that he is not just a clever and erriely talented performance artist, he is indeed supernaturally powerful in a significant way. The notion solidifies that everyone is generally much safer with him than without him, and that, while he certainly cannot do everything (despite his amazing and, literally, thunderously dazzling escape from the goblins {which killed several of them} and subsequent dissapearance, he did not manage to keep Bilbo and the Dwarves from being captured, and while he later unleashed a torrent of confusion and pain upon the goblins, he didn't turn them all into ice sculptures with a wave and a whisper), he can do a lot more than most to break himself and those in his care out of a tight corner (indeed, the line in The Hobbit after that event says almost EXACTLY those words).


People are correct to say that Gandalf should not appear omnipotent or even virtually omnipotent. Yet it is also important that, in the grand scheme, he appear at first, a little mysterious and possessed of prodigious talents, and later that he appear powerful. Once characters in the novel see him in action, there is never any doubt that he is a powerful being. Whether it is Frodo and Sam, or Thorin, Aragorn and Faramir, all are aware that Gandalf wields great power. Thorin, Aragorn and Faramir are also well aware that he is a greater power than they. From the beginning, Thorin speaks of the quest for Erebor as one which might claim all of their lives, "with the exception of our friend and counsellor, the ingenious Wizard Gandalf." The dwarves are dismayed when Gandalf parts with them at Mirkwood's edge, and while part of that dismay was at the loss of his cleverness and knowledge as a guide, much of it certainly was due to the recognition that they were loosing the most potent and resourceful member of their company, and the one most likely and most able to pull their asses out of a fire. Aragorn and Faramir also comment on the power of Gandalf, and Rivendell is full of tales of his wondrous feats. If the spirit of the novels is to be maintained in portraying him, then the dynamic cannot be played in the way Fandragon and a few others have seemed to suggest, where, as in an Elder Scrolls or Fable game, a high level warrior is different but still roughly equal in power to a high level mage. Thorin, Aragorn and Faramir are mighty and noble warriors, but Gandalf is a Power, and he is mightier than they. Peter himself understands this, even if he did not always adequately convey it. In the 365 day calender for the Fellowship film, there is a line from Saruman which was evidently in the original script, but was edited out of the film, wherein he says, after Gandalf falls facing The Balrog, "The Gray Messenger is gone. His ragtag fellowship is leaderless. There is no one to protect them now." Celeborn's sentiment mirrors The White Wizard's assesment. "Without Gandalf hope is lost." Galadriel knows that there is still some hope, however diminished, but both Celeborn and Saruman recognize that no remaining member of The Fellowship is the equal of The Gray Pilgrim.


If, (and I say IF, as I will not know wheter this is how the scene will unfold until I either see it, or read a more detailed report from someone with an inside track), Bolg is, on his own and as an orc, portrayed as anything like a match for Gandalf, or a source of fear for Gandalf, it will diminish the Wizard, and it will be a troubling misrepresentation. When Gandalf is pressed in the novels it is always and invariably either by overwhelming odds (scores to hundreds of more common antagonists/monsters like wargs and orcs) OR by very highly ranked and particularly potent Dark Powers. I recall showing Fellowship to a lay friend, and when The Balrog showed up, and Gandalf turned to face him, the friend asked, disdainfully, "what is HE gonna do?" And as disgusted as I was, I understood how he came to his conclusion. Gandalf had displayed feats of power in the movie. . . but the only time he effectively did so was when he was overwhelming Bilbo. In the fights with Saruman, he did more than virtually anyone else would have been able to manage, but he lost in both instances AND, in the instance with Saruman's storm, he really isn't seen to have effected its course at all. He never performs an astounding feat of magic like Arwen seems to do. We know Arwen is almost certainly not as powerful as Gandalf. Hell, we know the horse waves and their riders were Gandalf's doing, his own enhancement on Elrond's spell. But a lay person comes away understandably thinking that maybe The Fellowship might have done better to take Arwen instead of the Wizard ShockedCrazyShocked. By removing both Gandalf's lightning and fire wielding confrontation with The Nazgul, and the Wizard's fiery enchantment against the wargs, Peter effectively removed the main scenes in Fellowship where Gandalf both wields magic AND either routes or at least holds his own against significant foes. From a narrative standpoint they might not seem like enormous oversights, but as nothing replaces them, their absence leaves him looking much less potent than the novel portrays him.


I certainly hope the Hobbit does not take the same path. If Bolg is presented as, more or less, a yesteryear precursor version of Lurtz and Ugluk (albiet with a longer and more gruesome history), then he should not be put forth as a potential match for Gadalf. I think it is fair to say that you and I (and Mithrandir, and the others in our camp) are not interested in having Gandalf be turned into Zeus or even Thor. But we do want him to have all the powers and abilities that he wields in the books, and to have the scenes in which he displays them remain a part of the story.

In Reply To
I think you and I are pretty much on the same page as far as Gandalf is concerned and how we want PJ to portray him as an Istari in the movies.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."