The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Nazgul tombs



Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 8:28am


Views: 3391
Nazgul tombs
How much do we actually KNOW, as opposed to speculation?

Are they in Dol Guldur or on the Barrow Downs?

Are there nine, or are there fewer?
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 9:48am


Views: 1783
Very little ...
If you use the "search posts" function you'll get a whole heap of speculation, but also a couple of links back to CinemaCon.

Off the top of my head, we know there is a Witch-king crypt, and 8 other empty tombs. The location is unknown. And a White Council scene discussing the imprisonment of the Witch-King, and the morgul blade.

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lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 30 2012, 10:11am


Views: 1795
maybe...
...they're in carn dūm
angmar isn't so far from the shire (it was a much greater distance for gandalf to ride from the shire to isengard in FotR)
if gandalf leaves the dwarfes in the shire, he could leave for carn dūm and make it back in time to rescue the company from the trolls (the journey from shire to trollshaws is more then one week in the book).
i would love to see the ancient ruins of the witchking's fortress


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:16am


Views: 1773
Personally, I think Angmar is a little bit of a stretch for Gandalf to reach in one night.
Not impossible, especially if PJ reduces the distance between Trollshaws and Angmar. It's more likely these tombs are in the Barrow-downs or somewhere in the Ettenmoors.

Also, we don't even know if that's where Gandalf goes off to that night.

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:26am


Views: 1621
Yes, that is the third option
Gandalf discovers the morgul blade and leaves the dwarves to investigate. He finds the empty tombs whilst the dwarves get into trouble with the trolls.

The other options would seem to be:

They are in Dol Guldur, Gandalf finds them when he finds mad Thrain, recounted in flashback. However, the only proof Gandalf is able to come up with is the Morgul blade, and the threat is discounted by Saruman. In this version, Dol Guldur would have been a nazgul stronghold in the past, where they where defeated. Thus accounting for Dol Guldur being ruined.

As a less likely option, "Fog on the Barrow Downs" from Fellowship could be moved, with the dwarves losing the road in thick fog between Shire and Trollshaws, and Gandalf having to rescue them, and coming across the empty tombs, which would be Barrows.

In all cases, the biggest problem with lore is having all nine nazgul imprisoned, since if this is the case, who is occupying Minas Morgul?
A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 10:33am)


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 30 2012, 10:33am


Views: 1609
...
only people who've read the book, know, that angmar is a bigger distance then onlly one night away - but the same people know as well, that the journey from shire to trollshaws is as well a journey of more then one day/night

in the footage-description galadriel says, that the men from the north imprisioned the nazgul with a spell in a crypt.
so maybe its the place where the nazgul are defeated in the battle of fornost - so maybe its fornost


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:45am


Views: 1665
Reference to "men of the north"
Would seem to make Dol Guldur unlikely. Galadriel/PJ would probably assign credit to the elves under those circumstances.

The location of the crypt (which can just mean "underground chamber") could be pretty much anywhere around Arnor, including Rhudaur, the ruins of which are mentioned in Fellowship (book).
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 30 2012, 10:52am


Views: 1556
Not that it is a question
Which I think either set of films are likely to prompt I would think Orcs would be the most likely alternative occupiers.

LR


Elenorflower
Gondor


Sep 30 2012, 11:34am


Views: 1576
how can they
have tombs if they are not technically dead, they just faded into wraiths didnt they?
edit, well they are dead I suppose, but they werent killed, they just transmogrywotsited. Crazy


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on Sep 30 2012, 11:37am)


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 2:14pm


Views: 1406
You can be
Entombed without having to be dead.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Sep 30 2012, 3:18pm


Views: 1317
Count Nazgula who "vants to knife your neck!" X 9. //
 
**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


Phibbus
Rohan


Sep 30 2012, 3:26pm


Views: 1361
Hehe
I think Jackson probably does want to create vampiristic associations for the Nazgul.

I've often thought Tolkien does the same. Note their difficulties with crowing roosters, crossing running water, and entering houses unbidden.

Still not sure about this tomb business, though.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 30 2012, 3:42pm


Views: 1470
I really doubt that they can play a significant role.
If the Nazgūl were actually in any way significant presence in The Hobbit, there would be a hell to explain why they don't sense the numerous times Bilbo puts on the Ring, and go after him on the spot.

I actually hope that PJ will cut that bit about the tombs from the theatrical release, and put it in the extended cut as a little extra spice to tie the two movie series together. On its own it does very little for the story, but if the Nazgūl were actually in the story in person, they would change the plot massively with their presence.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 4:13pm


Views: 1326
Prepare for ...
them to be in! I think it's more likely they will be in the films (in some form) than not.

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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2012, 4:24pm


Views: 1285
What about Amon Sul?
Those statues at Weathertop reminded me to the original forms of the fallen kings.I“m more of a diferent scenary but I wouldn“t be surprised if they go that way
I can not guarantee his safety - understood...
Nor will I be responsible for his fate - Doh!


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 4:34pm


Views: 1341
Though the Nazgul are in
They will never come anywhere near Bilbo and the dwarves. At least no closer than they are in the book (Dol Guldur).

The tombs exist so Gandalf can gradually uncover the truth about Dol Guldur, rather then it be already known at the start.

I expect they are also a reason to call the master of Dol Guldur "Necromancer", since I doubt he would ever use such a name himself.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 4:35pm)


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 30 2012, 4:37pm


Views: 1306
Please no
I do despised the Weathertop scene in the films, that I really don't want to see it again! Smile


lidlessEye
Rivendell

Sep 30 2012, 5:46pm


Views: 1227
it's funny...
...how many people still think:
"its not in the hobbit, so it can't be in the movie..."

guys face it: its a movie about the hobbit and the appendices of LotR - so there will be a lot of stuff, which has a prequel-caracter to LotR.
so the nazgul will play a significant role in these films


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Sep 30 2012, 6:08pm


Views: 1160
The same explanation as in 'Fellowship"
At the beginning of "Fellowship" it was possible for Bilbo to use the One Ring (e.g. at his party) without any problems with Sauron and the Nazgūl. Years later when Gandalf discovered the truth behind the Ring he revealed it to Frodo (and Sam). He says something like "The Ring has awoken, he has heard the cry of it's master". Sauron is recovering his power during that time. He's rebuilding Barad-Dūr and his Orcs are increasing themselves. He now "sees everything" as Saruman tells Gandalf and tells us that during "The Hobbit" Sauron/The Necromancer wasn't powerful enough to see where his ring was although it was used by someone like Bilbo or Smeagol. And if Sauron wasn't powerful enough at that time the Nazgūl weren't either. It's all in "The Fellowship of the Ring" guys. So there won't be a problem with an explanation because we already have it.

Aside from that I think that the Nine will appear in "The Hobbit". They won't cross the Anduin, they won't hunt the company but some of them might play an important part in the Battle of Dol Guldur defending their master. But not the Witch King 'cause Gandalf tells Pippin in RotK that he never confronts him before. But perhaps we are gonna see Khamūl and one or two more Nazgūl at Dol Guldur?
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Sep 30 2012, 9:16pm


Views: 1118
Barrow-downs
I'll be disappointed if these tombs end up as something other than the Barrow-downs. Since that seems to be the inspiration, just go all the way and do the barrow-down chapters from LOTR.
"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Ardamķrė
Valinor


Sep 30 2012, 9:18pm


Views: 1015
I like option 3
I'd love to see the Barrow-down chapters from LOTR. Unlikely that we'll get Ol' Tom, but Gandalf saving them seems to be an agreeable alternative.
"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower." -Unfinished Tales


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 30 2012, 10:00pm


Views: 1030
I doubt that.
In Reply To
I'd love to see the Barrow-down chapters from LOTR. Unlikely that we'll get Ol' Tom, but Gandalf saving them seems to be an agreeable alternative.
This is highly unlikely. We already have the encounter with Bert, Tom and Will after leaving the Shire and before entering Mirkwood. Having the scene from the Barrow-downs would be essentially repetition of all the basic elements of that scene, with Gandalf providing the rescue, in the end. Having the same structure in two scenes right after one another would dilute both significantly, not to mention that hungry trolls don't have all that much menace after an undead monstrosity.

The whole scene with the Nazgūl tombs, if it even is in this movie and not the second, is most likely to be a flashback of some sort. It may for example be the incentive for Gandalf to go snooping at Dol Guldur, and find Thrain and the key he's carrying.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:05pm


Views: 1000
That's the entire book anyway!
Get caught by trolls, Gandalf saves them.
Get caught by goblins, Gandalf saves them.
Get caught in burning trees, Eagles save them.
Get caught by spiders, Bilbo saves them.
Get caught be Elves, Bilbo saves them.

One more wouldn't hurt. Tongue

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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2012, 10:09pm


Views: 852
I hoping it is
merely some flashback before the current events taking place in the time of the Hobbit. I still hate the idea of everything in middle earth being linked to Sauron and his ring. But I hope this is the case and the Nazgul nonsense is just part of history as part of the White Council subplot and it won't cross over into the main quest of Bilbo and the dwarves.


Lightice
Lorien

Sep 30 2012, 10:18pm


Views: 984
There's a difference.
In Reply To
One more wouldn't hurt. Tongue
The difference is that there's room to breathe between those events. A some sort of respite or safe haven before the next challenge. The elves don't count because in spite of imprisonment, they are still more a safe haven, since they don't represent a physical threat to the dwarves.

The trolls are meant to be the first, "low level" threat before greater challenges. A barrow-wight would ruin that structure.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 30 2012, 10:25pm


Views: 773
Additions just for the sake of...
adding things into films is not always a good thing. And since there is no basis for the Nazgul parts of the story other than what Peter Jackson wants to make up to tie his films together maybe they should just leave well enough alone. I don't want to see things shoved into middle earth just for the sake of seeing them again. The Nazgul included.Unsure


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 30 2012, 10:45pm


Views: 849
I would guess it is rather more
The history of Dol Guldur angle than the LOTR link.

LR


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:45pm


Views: 938
Well, that could work...
In Reply To
I'll be disappointed if these tombs end up as something other than the Barrow-downs. Since that seems to be the inspiration, just go all the way and do the barrow-down chapters from LOTR.

I could easily see Gandalf replacing Tom Bombadil in such a scene. However, it could make the similar rescue from the Trolls seem redundant (not to mention the rescue in Goblin-town). On the other hand, it would be a nice nod to the sequence ommitted from RotK.
'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Lausus
Bree


Oct 1 2012, 2:10am


Views: 776
The Witch-king may just be a suspicion toward the Necromancer
I think they might use the whole Witch-king tomb story to explain who they think the Necromancer is. Remember, the White Council doesn't know right away that Sauron is in Mirkwood. One possibility is that the council will suspect the Witch-king is running Dol Guldur throughout the movies and it will only be at the end that it is discovered...by the council and the audience...that Sauron is the Necromancer.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 1 2012, 4:20am


Views: 774
The Necromancer
In Reply To
I think they might use the whole Witch-king tomb story to explain who they think the Necromancer is. Remember, the White Council doesn't know right away that Sauron is in Mirkwood. One possibility is that the council will suspect the Witch-king is running Dol Guldur throughout the movies and it will only be at the end that it is discovered...by the council and the audience...that Sauron is the Necromancer.

That may be the case in the films, but do we know this for certain? In Tolkien's chronology, the White Council had known of the Necromancer's real identity for ninety years prior to the events of The Hobbit. It was only before Gandalf's report to the Council of 2951 that they believed that the Necromancer might have been one of the Nine or some lesser follower of Sauron's. I agree with you, though, that Jackson may well have tinkered with this idea and moved events around.
'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 6:40am


Views: 767
I would like this to be the explanation
In Reply To
I think they might use the whole Witch-king tomb story to explain who they think the Necromancer is. Remember, the White Council doesn't know right away that Sauron is in Mirkwood. One possibility is that the council will suspect the Witch-king is running Dol Guldur throughout the movies and it will only be at the end that it is discovered...by the council and the audience...that Sauron is the Necromancer.
I think the storyline in the appendices says that the white council suspected it might have been a nazgul in dol guldur. Then they were a bit surprised to find out it's Sauron.

Now, in the books they find out it's Sauron long before the events of the hobbit. So I wouldn't be surprised if PJ changes this to the white council not finding out it's Sauron until during the events of the hobbit. This can add a bit of mystery and "reveal" to the story.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 6:45am


Views: 773
I'm surprised
In Reply To
That may be the case in the films, but do we know this for certain? In Tolkien's chronology, the White Council had known of the Necromancer's real identity for ninety years prior to the events of The Hobbit. It was only before Gandalf's report to the Council of 2951 that they believed that the Necromancer might have been one of the Nine or some lesser follower of Sauron's. I agree with you, though, that Jackson may well have tinkered with this idea and moved events around.
I'm surprised no one really talks about this. We have discussed the timeline of Gandalf using glamdring in dol guldur and when he meets Thrain. But no one talks about the timeline of when the white council finds out that sauron is the necromancer.

I wouldn't be surprised if PJ has them find out during the events of the hobbit. And I think this would be the change that I am most comfortable with. It seems like it could work out better from a movie standpoint to have a sense of mystery behind dol guldor throughout part of the films and then have the reveal that it is Sauron.
-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 7:32am


Views: 803
I think it's pretty clear
From the white council clips that have been seen, that in this continuity the identity of the Necromancer is unknown.

I think we are seeing events that take place over a great many years in the appendices compressed down to fit within the timescale of the trilogy.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 1 2012, 10:01am


Views: 756
Room to breathe?
They happen chapter after chapter after chapter. The only breathing space is Rivendell and Beorn's House.

I'm not saying I want the Ringwraiths to appear in the Barrow-downs, but in the grand scheme of things, the entire book involves being captured and saved.

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DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 1 2012, 10:01am


Views: 763
PJ's favourite pasttime
Adding things into the films for the sake of it Wink.

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Lightice
Lorien

Oct 1 2012, 11:06am


Views: 735
And?
In Reply To
They happen chapter after chapter after chapter. The only breathing space is Rivendell and Beorn's House.

Exactly. That is what I was explicitly referring to as the breathing space. Some kind of interlude between threats. The elves don't qualify in the same category as the rest, since they don't threaten the lives of the protagonists, and actually save them from starvation or death by spiders, thus qualifying as another interlude more than as a threat.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 1 2012, 11:13am


Views: 792
Who knows what scene they could put in between
The Barrow-downs and Trollshaws to break it up. Perhaps a visit to Bree?

It doesn't matter that the Elves aren't a threat, the company is still captured then.

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stoutfiles
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 11:31am


Views: 723
It's worse than that
If you consider how often PJ veered from the book's story in LOTR with one film per book. Now he has three films for one book!

Just about anything can happen going there and back.


(This post was edited by stoutfiles on Oct 1 2012, 11:32am)


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 1 2012, 1:12pm


Views: 747
I vaguely remember that the journey
until Trollshaws is quite uneventful, not a lot happens apart from them getting wetter and more miserable. Could they not break up this bit of the journey by wandering past the Barrow Downs and Weathertop? just in passing as a nod to future events. Or even Bree. I bet there is a whole load of unseen footage from LOTR that they could insert quite cleverly. I once heard that PJ had filmed Tom and decided not to include him in the theatrical versions due to time, and that one day he would show these lost pieces of footage. Maybe its just an urban myth thing, and they never did film Tom, but I can hope.


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 3:17pm


Views: 670
The should probably just show character interaction
With everyone initially in high spirits (Gandalf trailer scene) and gradually becoming miserable and snappy.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 1 2012, 3:42pm


Views: 611
That is not too surprising really...
In Reply To
I'm surprised no one really talks about this. We have discussed the timeline of Gandalf using glamdring in dol guldur and when he meets Thrain. But no one talks about the timeline of when the white council finds out that sauron is the necromancer.

I wouldn't be surprised if PJ has them find out during the events of the hobbit. And I think this would be the change that I am most comfortable with. It seems like it could work out better from a movie standpoint to have a sense of mystery behind dol guldor throughout part of the films and then have the reveal that it is Sauron.

Well, when the White Council finds out about Sauron is dependent upon when Gandalf makes this discovery--he is the one who brings this information to the Council. It seems that Jackson is altering events to make this feel more immediate to the audience, much as he sped up and streamlined Frodo's departure from the Shire.
'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Danielos
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 5:34pm


Views: 688
Tom Bombadill
Of course Tom Bombadill was never shot. That section didn“t have any chance to fit into the movie either tonewise, storywise or timewise. And rightly so! It should have been left out of the book as well! Why would PJ waste money to shoot actors and sequences never likely to end up in the movies?


Elenorflower
Gondor


Oct 1 2012, 6:57pm


Views: 649
I bow
to your obviously superior knowledge and taste.

''Of course Tom Bombadill was never shot. That section didn“t have any chance to fit into the movie either tonewise, storywise or timewise. And rightly so! It should have been left out of the book as well! Why would PJ waste money to shoot actors and sequences never likely to end up in the movies?''

What was Tolkien thinking??


Danielos
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 7:07pm


Views: 595
Tolkien
Well, I think he should have thought harder about that part at least.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 1 2012, 7:12pm


Views: 650
How so?
Bombadil was a deliberate enigma, and Tolkien made it explicit that he was not important to the narrative.

Bombadil was far from an oversight by Tolkien ...

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GothmogTheBalrog
Rivendell


Oct 1 2012, 10:22pm


Views: 514
Tolkien knew
what he was doing. We (the fans) might not know what Bombadil was doing in FotR, but Tolkien did. I don't question it.
"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 1 2012, 10:56pm


Views: 647
While I vehemently disagree with this assessment
It is, after all, just Danielos' opinion. Smile


Phibbus
Rohan


Oct 1 2012, 11:25pm


Views: 570
Maybe he did?
Probably more words have been expended analyzing, questioning, speculating upon, accepting, excepting, rejecting, praising, ridiculing, and generally jawing about Bombadil than most of the more "essential" aspects of Tolkien's work (and most characters in the history of literature, generally.) Maybe Tolkien did know something about readers.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Oct 2 2012, 12:13am


Views: 459
I would be surprised if PJ, DIDN'T move things around//
 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 1:41am


Views: 596
The notion of the fall of The Witch King going entirely to Dunedain, and ignorning Lindor, Rivendell, Earnur and Glorfindel
AGAIN! is so disgusting to me I can barely put it into words. That said. . . I think Gandalf is going to be gone for longer than a single night. You saw the scene of Thorin and co. running across the wild in the trailer with Thorin in The lead. They look to be decidedly without the aid of a Wizard in that scene. I am thinking he might leave them noticeably before they actually reach the trollshaws. He may be gone for the equivalent of several days.
In Reply To
Not impossible, especially if PJ reduces the distance between Trollshaws and Angmar. It's more likely these tombs are in the Barrow-downs or somewhere in the Ettenmoors.

Also, we don't even know if that's where Gandalf goes off to that night.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 8:28am


Views: 482
Since PJ
probably also doesn't fully understand Bombadil, it was probably wiser for him to leave the episode out of his version of the story.

Tolkein always knew that myths change with time and the teller.

My feeling is Bombadil represents the Deep Past - pre Anglo-Saxon bronze age Britain. He is not affected by, and cannot affect the Ring, because he belongs to a different, earlier mythology. But the point Tolkien is making is those older mythologies don't disappear completely, they linger on in hidden corners of memory.
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Oct 2 2012, 4:45pm


Views: 563
Yup
I would rather PJ cut cleanly, than butcher.