The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Bilbo's garment in "Riddles in the Dark" scene



TheHutt
Gondor


Sep 26 2012, 7:45am


Views: 4295
Bilbo's garment in "Riddles in the Dark" scene
I am astonished that nobody of the filmmakers took into consideration the continuity in the "Riddles in the Dark" scene. How hard would that have been?:

Bilbo in FOTR prologue: Dark grey coat, red vest:




Bilbo in The Hobbit: Red-brownish coat, no apparent vest, scarf.


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emre43
Rohan

Sep 26 2012, 7:50am


Views: 3344
Good grief
I am really dissapointed with the lack of continuity in these films. The Goblins look nothing like the Goblins in FOTR, Tom, Bert and William don't look like the Tom, Bert and William in FOTR extended. There's probably more things that I can't remember. Frown


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 7:52am


Views: 3168
Well ... obviously ...
Bilbo takes off his jacket and puts on a cravat thing before riddling with Gollum ...

Unimpressed

I thought he had the same waistcoat though? We've seen pictures of the buttons at least.

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DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 7:52am


Views: 3283
The colour of Frodo's book.
That's a shocker.

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Milknut
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 8:03am


Views: 3127
The way I see it
The clip of young Bilbo in FOTR is more symbolic of what happened than anything else. I mean, that scene won't play out exactly the way it did in FOTR ("What's this? A ring? OMG GOLLUM IS YELLING AND STUFF"). They will probably do the finding of the ring and the reveal of Gollum more elegantly. In fact I hope they do. So I'm all for not being restricted by what was created in the service of an entirely different film with different needs.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


titanium_hobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 8:06am


Views: 3182
looks like they swapped out the actor too
BRING BACK IAN! :)

They've mentioned something about having to change the colour due to changes to the film process, with the RED cameras instead of film.

Hobbit firster, Book firster.


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DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 8:11am


Views: 3113
They just couldn't find the original jacket
In Reply To
They've mentioned something about having to change the colour due to changes to the film process, with the RED cameras instead of film.

Wink

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Fertlthewhite
Bree


Sep 26 2012, 8:22am


Views: 3106
this is a repost
Wink

I mentioned this matter many many month ago

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=436584;guest=40243933#436584


(This post was edited by Fertlthewhite on Sep 26 2012, 8:24am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 8:26am


Views: 3073
Re-reading that post back ...
I might have played a part in massively de-railing it ... Unimpressed

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Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 9:04am


Views: 3159
And it's just lazy!!
In Reply To
That's a shocker.
And for those who say "Who cares -it's just a book" I say it would have been just as easy to get a book the same colour! Mad

"Someone go get me a book for this frodo scene" -PJ
"Someone go get me a red book for this frodo scene" -PJ

Lazy...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 9:10am


Views: 3132
Yes, it's a silly mistake
But I'll admit ... it doesn't really bother me. A book's a book. We only see it for about 1 second. There are larger, and more annoying continuity mistakes than the colour of a book.

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Lightice
Lorien

Sep 26 2012, 10:16am


Views: 3093
I really can't agree with this stuff (either!)
In Reply To
I am really dissapointed with the lack of continuity in these films. The Goblins look nothing like the Goblins in FOTR, Tom, Bert and William don't look like the Tom, Bert and William in FOTR extended. There's probably more things that I can't remember. Frown
Sorry, but I have to disagree a fair bit (Again! Is this the only thing I'm doing on this forum?) Tom, Bert and Will were modelled after the original WETA models. They were given body hair and texture, but it's still the same basic faces in there. As for the goblins, the LotR trilogy already showed us a huge variation of creatures of orcish persuasion, with clear "racial" traits based on where they live; compare the Moria goblins with the Mordor orcs, for example. The creatures from the trailers fit perfectly well into that continuity.

As for Bilbo's coat and so forth, lets keep in mind that the scene can't be replicated one to one, no matter what. Gollum's screams can't coincide with Bilbo finding the Ring. PJ isn't so forgetful that he wouldn't remember having shot the scene with Bilbo for the Fellowship, and if it doesn't match with the new stuff, then it's a conscious choice on his part.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Sep 26 2012, 12:15pm


Views: 2936
Agreed. //
In Reply To
PJ isn't so forgetful that he wouldn't remember having shot the scene with Bilbo for the Fellowship, and if it doesn't match with the new stuff, then it's a conscious choice on his part.


dave_lf
Gondor

Sep 26 2012, 12:34pm


Views: 2941
You know what they say about a foolish consistency
and the film has enough hobgoblins already.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Sep 26 2012, 1:00pm


Views: 2957
The very short FOTR scene was shot 12-13 years ago
Do you really think they were planning that far ahead? Obviously the costume didn't fit very well for The Hobbit, so they changed it.


(This post was edited by Carne on Sep 26 2012, 1:05pm)


stoutfiles
Rohan

Sep 26 2012, 1:07pm


Views: 2987
It's not an error
Considering they will likely replace that scene in future LOTR releases with a Martin Freeman scene from AUJ. Also, Hayden Christensen's ghost will replace Cirdan at the Grey Havens, just like Tolkien would have wanted.


(This post was edited by stoutfiles on Sep 26 2012, 1:10pm)


Labrynian Rebel
The Shire


Sep 26 2012, 1:12pm


Views: 2919
I really hope they do that, or else I'll have a continuity spasm every time I watch it
seriously, it would annoy me so much


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 1:13pm


Views: 2911
Nooo! Bilbo is Ian Holm!
Leave him be! Cool

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Oscarilbo
Lorien


Sep 26 2012, 1:40pm


Views: 2877
well...
Of course that scene of the FOTR prologue will be replaced with a new one of Martin Freeman.

That's why PJ did not bother for continuity in that scene, that's why he redesigned Bilbo's clothes without worrying. Martin Freeman is now officially younger Bilbo.

As for the trolls, we have always seen creatures becoming stone in movies like the first Narnia and so, but we do not know what PJ plans to show us on these trolls in that moment, but as far as we can tell by the trailers they are the same trolls, the same face, the same structure, just 60 years before FOTR and perfectly alive, with personality, hair, clothes, and a lot of hunger... we'll see.
"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"

(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on Sep 26 2012, 1:46pm)


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 26 2012, 1:49pm


Views: 2896
And Martin Freeman is Ian Holm
Ian Holm will be digitally removed from existence and replaced by Martin Freeman (adjusted for age, obviously).
A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 2:38pm


Views: 2824
Sacrilege! /
 

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Elenorflower
Gondor


Sep 26 2012, 3:22pm


Views: 2800
as much as I love
Ian Holm as younger Bilbo, if i ever wanted to geek out on a mega Hobbit/LOTR cd watchingfest, it would be slightly irritating to see two different actors play the same scene. Just a quibbler really.


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 3:32pm


Views: 2771
Bilbo appears to be wearing a green waistcoat throughout the quest
Though I think he may lose it before the Riddles scene. The buttons might be the same, though Cool


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Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 3:37pm


Views: 2762
I would hazard a guess
I would guess that Bilbo's greenish grey overcoat didn't mess well with the green screens they used for CGI. I'd also guess that it blended into the scenery too well in forest scenes and in the darkness of cave scenes. And I'd guess that they wanted Bilbo's outfit to be more brightly colored to separate him from the dwarves with just a quick look.

In other words: I don't think it was an error so much as a design choice. Or it could all just be a mistake. Either way, really.


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There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 3:37pm


Views: 2795
THANK YOU
obviously they want to keep as much continuity as they can, but let's be reasonable.

They are different films and if something works better for the film now then they should do that. period.

Look, I'm the first to have OCD about this stuff too, but we have to get over it. Or at least I'm trying to get over it. Better for one's sanity. Crazy
"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas

(This post was edited by There&ThereAgain on Sep 26 2012, 3:41pm)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 4:40pm


Views: 2308
We've known this for over a year...
Why is it suddenly such a big deal?

I was a little annoyed at first, but I love Bilbo's new outfit. I think it's much more unique than the original, even if it was a little closer to the book.

Bilbo's eyes are also a different color.Wink

I think the continuity "error" were pretty obviously conscious design choices. PJ probably just didn't want to force himself to use an old design that was in FotR for ten seconds. I'm curious to see whether or not he'll swap the scenes for a future blu-ray release.

And as for the trolls. If you compare them, they are obviously updated designs. BUT, I don't think they're different enough to be that big of an issue. They look like the old designs with just more personality and exaggerated faces.


FiliSonOfDis
Rivendell


Sep 26 2012, 5:08pm


Views: 2313
Galadriel narrates the beginning of FOTR
So I just think of it, in my own personal canon, that it is just her vision of these events we are seeing. not exactly how they happened. No need to pull a lucas and "fix" this.

the trolls better look right when they turn to stone though.


Elutherian
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 5:09pm


Views: 2274
This honestly doesn't bother me that much...
..We already know this scene is going to be completely different that what's shown in the Prologue. Different actor, different set-up, different lines. Why should the wardrobe be the only thing that's consistent?
The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 5:14pm


Views: 2262
Not everyone has known this for over a year
Not everyone has seen the production diaries or been paying attention to the official photos or the discussion boards here and elsewhere. People are coming into this production at various stages and I'm not terribly comfortable with the implication that if you haven't been staying abreast of the news for the past year you're somehow less welcome to post your discoveries here. I might as well go home if that's the case.


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DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 6:17pm


Views: 2225
Galadriel wouldn't make such a silly mistake! /
 

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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 6:35pm


Views: 2209
Positions
Yeah, if the positions they turn to stone in are different, then I'll be pretty annoyed. That will be what connects the Hobbit with the Lord of the Rings, not their faces, which you barely get a good look at anyway even in the extended edition.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 6:37pm


Views: 2246
Book?
Which book are you talking about? The one he's reading in the beginning of FotR?


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 6:39pm


Views: 2213
not a mistake
She just thought Bilbo's color choice was a little too much, so she swapped out his reddish/magenta (or whatever...) coat for a more subtle dark green one for her version.Wink


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Sep 26 2012, 6:39pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 6:41pm


Views: 2232
Yup, that's the one
It's red (or black*) in FOTR, yet black (or red*) in the first Hobbit trailer.

*See! I can't even remember which way round it is. Tongue

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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 6:45pm


Views: 2243
theory
Frodo ended up waiting so long for Gandalf that he finished his book and had to go grab a different one.Tongue


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 6:46pm


Views: 2206
That suits me!
I wonder if he is reading Bilbo's journal. The annual showed 2 pages of it ... hmmm ...

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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 6:48pm


Views: 2188
True
But if we have too many threads like this, we'll end up having threads about people being shocked about the beardless dwarves and asking what happened to Guillermo del Toro.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 6:48pm


Views: 2227
Isn't the book a reddish brown in both
AUJ and FOTR? I wasn't here when this was discussed but just now I looked at the trailer and then a picture from the fellowship and to me they look they're kind of around the same color. Definitely not the same but maybe more like: AUJ reddish brown, FOTR brownish red.


(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Sep 26 2012, 6:51pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 6:55pm


Views: 2182
I don't think there was any specific analysis in the end
Just a couple of posts here and there. But yes, it's a very tiny detail. How anyone noticed to start off with has super eagle eyes!

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Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 26 2012, 6:56pm


Views: 2207
As Emerson once said
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

Continuity schmontinuity, I say. PJ should simply go with what looks best for these movies, and not worry about LOTR too much.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 6:59pm


Views: 2164
Or elf eyes.
 


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 7:05pm


Views: 2162
I expect some of those threads will pop up this year
Why? Do you want an entrance exam before people post?


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Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 26 2012, 7:14pm


Views: 2155
I wonder if anyone kept count
of how many "which actor did Viggo replace?" threads we had after the FOTR DVD was released?

Repeated topics happen. It's up to us to either welcome the newer person and discuss what we know, or leave the thread alone and move on to something else that has greater interest.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 7:14pm


Views: 2151
no
A contract will do.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 7:16pm


Views: 2140
Or just spent a vast amount of time analyzing the trailer
Wink


burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 7:19pm


Views: 2136
I agree //
 


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 26 2012, 7:31pm


Views: 2173
Clearly Old Bilbo's memory is not infallible...
and he doesn't remember the specifics of what he was wearing all those 60 years earlier. Or he did not describe what he was wearing sufficiently clearly while telling his story and the listeners simply imagined something different than he was actually wearing. His outfit isn't very clearly described in the Red Book either. He's wearing a coat and waiscoat with brass buttons, that's all we know.
Silverlode



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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2012, 7:44pm


Views: 2146
illustrations
I think Tolkien's illustrations have him wearing a green coat, but I'd have to double check.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 26 2012, 9:50pm


Views: 2085
On this aspect I quite agree.
 


Phibbus
Rohan


Sep 27 2012, 1:30am


Views: 2062
I don't know why...
With such an enormous budget, those eniacs at Weta couldn't have just tinkered up some kind of wayback machine to make Holm young enough to play the role, again.

Speaking of wayback, when I was about fourteen, I had a burgundy corduroy blazer exactly like the one Freeman is wearing. Threadbare in all the same places. Hopelessly out of fashion straight off the rack. I'm sure this is it. I want it back.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 27 2012, 1:39am


Views: 2165
I believe Holm didn't want to play young Bilbo again
I remember him saying something about the way they made him younger in FOTR really hurt, and he never wanted to do that again. or something similar to that effect. I'm fine with Martin Freeman playing Bilbo. I actually pictured him as Bilbo the first time i read the Hobbit after seeing the Hitchhikers guide movie. I think he'll be perfect and maybe they will replace they young Bilbo from FOTR with him someday on a deluxe Blue Ray collectors edition who knows Wink


Phibbus
Rohan


Sep 27 2012, 2:00am


Views: 2132
As long as...
They retain the green tint, which will help maintain continuity with the old deluxe extended blu-ray collectors edition.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


Fàfnir
Rohan


Sep 27 2012, 2:07am


Views: 2134
Young Ian Holm
didn't even look like a bilbo, IMO

http://siyanor.com/photo/Ian-Holm71865.jpg


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 27 2012, 2:32am


Views: 2115
But he DID look like a cold, calculating android
Shocked
King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


Phibbus
Rohan


Sep 27 2012, 4:00am


Views: 2101
No, no...
In Reply To
I remember him saying something about the way they made him younger in FOTR really hurt, and he never wanted to do that again
He'd need never experience the slightest discomfort. They would simply dial the flux capacitor back to, say, 1977, explain the situation to young(er) Ian, shoot all requirred scenes with him against greenscreen (well, blue, at the time, probably), and then, safely back in the present, edit him into the master footage. Of course, as Arnold Schwarzenegger can explain far better than I, the film unit would be required to travel to the past naked and empty-handed, so they would not have spiffy REDs at their disposal. However, they could shoot everything on contemporary 70mm, seal the reels in hermetic mailers, schedule a Western Union delivery to New Zealand for 2012, and voila!—scan it with a modern Lasergraphics and you'd never even notice the difference.

Far more streamlined, IMO, than having to go through all those casting calls and worries over continuity issues. I'd even have been willing to lend them my burgundy blazer.
Man is but an ass if he go about to expound this dream.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 27 2012, 9:11am


Views: 2071
Looks like Bilbo to me ;-) /
 

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jtarkey
Rohan

Sep 27 2012, 9:37am


Views: 2073
It's looking more and more likely
That they will replace Ian with Martin in new versions of FOTR. It really is the only scene that noticeably ruins continuity. Honestly, I really hope they do. Hopefully that's all they will change. It would help the 6 films blend so well together.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 27 2012, 9:47am


Views: 2084
But it's plainly clear that Bilbo is played by two actors
I'd be really disappointed if in future releases they remove Holm. Frown

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jtarkey
Rohan

Sep 27 2012, 9:53am


Views: 2066
But..
For some reason (and maybe this is just me) the fact that Ian Holm is in the Hobbit makes it work. If Ian is in The Hobbit as old bilbo, it only makes sense to have Martin in FOTR as young bilbo. Flows perfectly to me.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 27 2012, 10:00am


Views: 2063
I suppose so
Frown

And it gives them an excuse to re-release the DVD's again ... $$$

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TheHutt
Gondor


Sep 27 2012, 10:27am


Views: 2061
I do hope not!
Now I certainly hope that PJ will retain from pulling a Lucas™ here.

LOTR is and stays LOTR, and HOBBIT is HOBBIT - these are two different films. No need to mix footage from one into the other.
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Noria
Gondor

Sep 27 2012, 1:32pm


Views: 2042
I agree about replacing Bilbo in FotR.
I really hope PJ doesn't do that - I don't think it's necessary.

But then, I couldn't care less that Bilbo is dressed differently in FotR and AUJ. I probably won't even notice whrn I see AUJ unless I remember this thread.Wink


Oscarilbo
Lorien


Sep 27 2012, 1:46pm


Views: 2064
well...
Given the fact that The Hobbit movies are being made as part of the Lord of the Rings collection, not as something else completely separately, with many of the same actors, and even a slightly darker beard of Gandalf to make him seem slightly younger than LOTR, yes, they need to mix footage from one into the other, or at least just with LOTR prologue.

The goal is to have all the six movies as one whole collection, and are being designed to be seen, ideally, by present and future generations in chronological order.

Yes, maybe one scene of Ian Holme is "sacrificed" in LOTR (contrary to Lucas, original LOTR cuts dvds and blu-rays are already there) but we'll get even more of him in The Hobbit movies.
"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"

(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on Sep 27 2012, 1:48pm)


Ring-Bearer
Rivendell


Sep 30 2012, 1:58am


Views: 1992
They may not have been planning ahead...
... But as sophisticated the wardrobe is for these films, I would have hoped that they could at least made a careful remodeling of the original costume. I was pondering this recently as I was watching FOTR, so I'm glad that the topic was brought up.
'I will take it! I will take the Ring to Mordor- though, I do not know the way...'
'I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you!'


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 30 2012, 2:04am


Views: 2066
Also, red may have been chosen
As a visual reminder that Bilbo is a fish out of water in this big, dangerous, green world.

A green coat would not make the same impression.

Continuity is far less important than using the visual language of film to convey meaning.