The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I am happily convinced Gandalf won't be captured with the dwarves, but now I worry if he will be with the company at all when the attack happens



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 1:57am


Views: 2367
I am happily convinced Gandalf won't be captured with the dwarves, but now I worry if he will be with the company at all when the attack happens

I am not looking for trouble, but I really love that whole scene, and while the concern of Gandalf being erroneously captured with the dwarves and Bilbo was a false alarm, it occurs to me and not for the first time, that I have yet to see any evidence of Gandalf being with the company on the mountain pass, during the Stone Giant attack, or in the cave prior to the ambush. What gives?

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fàfnir
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 2:27am


Views: 1470
If he is not with the dwarves

and he just happens to show up and kill the great goblin right when the dwarves were about to be executed, he could nearly beat the eagles in the deus ex machina middle earth championship


(This post was edited by Fàfnir on Sep 26 2012, 2:28am)


dave_lf
Gondor

Sep 26 2012, 4:12am


Views: 1401
Thorin suspects him of eating their food

and sends him home in tears.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 26 2012, 4:32am


Views: 1360
So the rumors say

Apparently, this is also precipitated by Gandalf's offer to help carry Orcrist for Thorin. According to Quint's forthcoming set report, due next week, Gandalf states (in slo-motion, a skill he learned in acting class):

"I could carry it for a while" followed by another statement in slo-motion; "shaaare the looooad."

Thorin flies into a rage, and then...what you said.

It provides a nice parallel to a scene from LOTR, though I can't remember which, as there are parts of it that have been surgically removed from my memory.


Milknut
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 5:45am


Views: 1305
Worry not.

I come bearing proof.


I believe this scene from trailer 1 (at about 1:38) is the scene in the cave before they go to sleep and get taken by the goblins.

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 26 2012, 5:55am


Views: 1292
Er, those photos

Shows Gandalf and company resting in a forested area, which looks nothing like the Misty Mountain pass we have seen from the trailer...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 7:06am


Views: 1238
'Tis not the cave

The cave they stay in is, well, much more cave like. Smile

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DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 7:07am


Views: 1247
Some element of change

It is inevitable that this scene, from their arrival in the cave right until they all escape, will be changed. Gandalf might not be captured with the Dwarves, but I doubt this part of the film will end up exactly like the book.

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titanium_hobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 7:51am


Views: 1223
more proof

I suspect this is when Bilbo wakes first and just manages a squeak with the horrible wall crack nightmare (precursor to the recent Doctor Who theme?)
trailer 2: 2:13

Also, what does Bifur have in his hand- it's some sort of bird toy? if you scrub slowly through you can see it's wings flap.




Hobbit firster, Book firster.


Have you explored all of TORN's forums?


Milknut
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 7:52am


Views: 1191
Why?

I'm mystified as to why this is even a concern. What possible reason is there to change the events? It works in the book so what reason is there to change it?

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 7:53am


Views: 1181
It's an eagle toy, from Rivendell :-) /

 

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DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 7:54am


Views: 1179
Because they're making the films, and not us ;-)

We already know that Bilbo ends up fighting a Goblin. That's a change right there!

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Milknut
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 7:55am


Views: 1183
Maybe that was all part of an elaborate dream sequence!

Shocked

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


titanium_hobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 8:08am


Views: 1178
lighting in the fight scene

There appears to be both blue moonlight and yellow lamp light in the scene.

This niggles at me a little because I know that Bilbo's sword isn't taken from him by the Goblins because it's hidden in his breeches.


Hobbit firster, Book firster.


Have you explored all of TORN's forums?


Milknut
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 8:10am


Views: 1179
What are you saying?

Do you think the fight is taking place in the cave, not Goblin-Town?

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2012, 8:12am


Views: 1164
Might not be moonlight? /

 

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titanium_hobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 10:10am


Views: 1134
yes- that it's Bilbo's heroics before the abduction

seems very non-canon and I think, unlikely.

I agree Daniel, might not be moonlight.


Hobbit firster, Book firster.


Have you explored all of TORN's forums?


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 26 2012, 10:21am


Views: 1138
I think

Bilbo will be a little less incompetent and whiny than he is early in the book. Otherwise a portion of the audience might find too irritating to identify with.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Milknut
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 10:34am


Views: 1116
Impossible

Martin Freeman, remember? Tongue

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


dave_lf
Gondor

Sep 26 2012, 12:18pm


Views: 1126
What heroics?

What heroics? He just stands there trying not to get stabbed. Could be some dwarf takes out the goblin a moment later just before Bilbo bites it.

There is actually good reason to suppose the spider will be retained as his first kill. The alternate trailer ending made a big deal out of the fact that Bilbo's sword didn't have a name because it hadn't seen battle, which by Chekov's law means the writers will make a big deal out of him giving it one once it finally does. I believe we've already had a glimpse of that scene, occurring right where it should.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 8:58pm


Views: 970
I was thinking about this shot too, Milknut, but I keep wondering if this is in the cave shot

or elsewhere? There is a tree in there for one thing. A tree could grow in a cave, but I cannot tell if this pic is entirely enclosed, or just near a rocky overhang of some sort. I hope you are right. I think this is a great shot. But in one of the clips where Bifur is shown playing with a Dwarvern toy, and they are clearly in a cave, there is no sign of this tree, nor of Gandalf, and I've not seen him in any of the shots on the path up into the mountains.

In Reply To
I come bearing proof.


I believe this scene from trailer 1 (at about 1:38) is the scene in the cave before they go to sleep and get taken by the goblins.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 9:15pm


Views: 973
This is the picture I was talking about.

And I see no sign of tree or of Thaumaturge (Wizard) in it, which concerns me.

In Reply To
I suspect this is when Bilbo wakes first and just manages a squeak with the horrible wall crack nightmare (precursor to the recent Doctor Who theme?)
trailer 2: 2:13

Also, what does Bifur have in his hand- it's some sort of bird toy? if you scrub slowly through you can see it's wings flap.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Carne
Tol Eressea

Sep 26 2012, 9:27pm


Views: 938
The tree is at the front of the cave though, Bilbo could be in the back

And only Bifur and Balin can be seen, but that doesn't mean the others aren't there.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 9:34pm


Views: 951
That is exactly why it is a concern. Because it is a great scene which doesn't need

any alteration. Indeed, alteration could ruin a great scene. Yet just because a scene doesn't need to be tinkered with does not mean it is warded against the possibility of busy hands messing with it just the same.

Three things occur to my mind. One is how grudging Jackson is towards allowing Gandalf's magic to shine through, and the others are the business of The Wizards search of Dol Guldur, along with Jackson's comment that "in the book, Gandalf keeps dissapearing" which is actually only half true. Gandalf only parts ways with the company twice. Once before the Trollshaws and again on the edge of Mirkwood. For him to leave them more than once in the first film, if the first film never makes it to Mirkwood, would be a departure.

If the troll scene only allows enough time for a visit with Radagast, then it is not impossible that Jackson might have Gandalf leave the company prior to reaching The Misty Mountains, only returning, perhaps after some dramatic encounter in Dol Guldur, to save the company from The Goblins at the last minute.


In Reply To
I'm mystified as to why this is even a concern. What possible reason is there to change the events? It works in the book so what reason is there to change it?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 26 2012, 10:08pm


Views: 970
Although we can only see four of the party in that shot in total.

I assume the others are out of shot.

LR


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 26 2012, 10:10pm


Views: 778
was wondering that myself

why change the amount of times Gandalf leaves the company. I can think of only 2 once before the trolls and at the eves of Mirkwood....the first one being the only one we should see in film 1 and only for a short time (mere hours) from my understanding of it. Gandalf never actually left the company when they were abducted by the goblins and taken to goblin Town he merely hid and followed them instead of allowing himself to be captured with them. So its still only one absence before Mirkwood I don't see any "keeps disappearing" at all in the book.

"Where did you go to, if I may ask?" said Thorin to Gandalf as they rode along
"To look ahead" said he.
"And what brought you back in the nick of time?"
"Looking behind," said he.
"Exactly!" said Thorin; "but could you be more plain?"
"I went on to spy out our road. It will soon become dangerous and difficult. Also I was anxious about replenishing our small stock of provisions. I had not gone very far, however, when I met a couple of friends of mine from Rivendell."
"Where's that?" asked Bilbo
"Don't interrupt!" said Gandalf. "You will get there in a few days now, if were lucky, and find out all about it. As I was saying I met two of Elrond's people. They were hurrying along for fear of the trolls. It was they who told me that three of them had come down from the mountains and settled in the woods not far from the road: They had frightened everyone away from the district, and they waylaid strangers.
"I immediately had a feeling that I was wanted back. Looking behind I saw a fire in the distance and made for it. So now you know. Please be more careful, next time, or we shall never get anywhere!"
"Thank you!" said Thorin.


which says to me...
1 either Gandalf meets Radagast instead of Elves from Rivendell
OR...
2 Peter Jackson changes things and Gandalf leaves the company more than once before Mirkwood meeting elves from Rivendell AND meeting Radagast

Not sure which option it will be at this point but I truly hope they have that scene of them meeting back up after they have rested and grabbed what supplies they can from the troll horde, with mostly Tolkien's own dialogue in place since it is exceptionally great dialogue to begin with. No changes are needed to it IMO. If it has to be one or the other which there might be other options there. I prefer option 1 keeping Gandalf with the company and only leaving once personally


Fàfnir
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 11:10pm


Views: 779
Thorin an Great Goblin action figure

If the great goblin and thorin come in one set of action figures, couldn't it be because Thorin and the great goblin will have a much more elaborated confrontation than in the book ? We already know that if Gandalf and Bolg are in the same action figure box, it is because they will have an epic duel in dol guldur. Maybe this announce that gandalf will rescue the dwarves later than in the book, letting Thorin and the great Goblin have a duel before ?


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 11:36pm


Views: 772
I really don't like this Bolg vs. Gandalf thing. But that maybe deserves a seperate post.

I think it diminishes the Wizard a bit to suggest that one big orc would be able to fight him to a draw. . . but he could stand against Nazgul and a Balrog. Bolg is just no Balrog. Bolg is not a Power. Bolg leading a small group of orcs against Gandalf sure, but Bolg in single combat??? Frown

In Reply To
If the great goblin and thorin come in one set of action figures, couldn't it be because Thorin and the great goblin will have a much more elaborated confrontation than in the book ? We already know that if Gandalf and Bolg are in the same action figure box, it is because they will have an epic duel in dol guldur. Maybe this announce that gandalf will rescue the dwarves later than in the book, letting Thorin and the great Goblin have a duel before ?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fàfnir
Rohan


Sep 26 2012, 11:45pm


Views: 773
At least we know Gandlf wins ! ^^ /

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 11:51pm


Views: 768
Indeed. Lol. Though it seems more likely they must draw, since Bolg will almost certainly

be back at the Battle of Five Armies, to meet a thing he fears in Beorn. But shouldn't he learn to fear Gandalf>? Just saying. Pretty sure Bolg wouldn't be able to fight any Balrog to an anything beyond Bolg's own funeral in under thirty seconds.

In Reply To


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 26 2012, 11:55pm


Views: 768
I don't put anything past Peter Jackson


In Reply To
I think it diminishes the Wizard a bit to suggest that one big orc would be able to fight him to a draw. . . but he could stand against Nazgul and a Balrog. Bolg is just no Balrog. Bolg is not a Power. Bolg leading a small group of orcs against Gandalf sure, but Bolg in single combat??? Frown

In Reply To


Just call me cynical but at this point I don't put any radically drastic changes past him. This will likely be the last voyage into middle earth. So why not shoot for the stars and just include what ever he wants, no matter how ridiculous? He has to make Bolg seem like he is the witch king of the Hobbit movies, were already getting a Zombie Azog from the character descriptions, why not super Bolg,... faster than a running Warg, more powerful than all the istari, able to leap over Orthanc in a single bound, Look to DolGuldur, its an Ent, its a cave troll... NO, its Super Bolg. Angelic

I can see it now with his dwarf beard cape and skeletal costumeCrazy


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 26 2012, 11:58pm


Views: 785
AHAHAHAHAHHA. . . . wait. . . wait. . .

I was thinking your superBolg joke was funny. . . then I realized it might come true. . . and I had a damn seizure. Shocked

In Reply To

In Reply To
I think it diminishes the Wizard a bit to suggest that one big orc would be able to fight him to a draw. . . but he could stand against Nazgul and a Balrog. Bolg is just no Balrog. Bolg is not a Power. Bolg leading a small group of orcs against Gandalf sure, but Bolg in single combat??? Frown

In Reply To


Just call me cynical but at this point I don't put any radically drastic changes past him. This will likely be the last voyage into middle earth. So why not shoot for the stars and just include what ever he wants, no matter how ridiculous? He has to make Bolg seem like he is the witch king of the Hobbit movies, were already getting a Zombie Azog from the character descriptions, why not super Bolg,... faster than a running Warg, more powerful than all the istari, able to leap over Orthanc in a single bound, Look to DolGuldur, its an Ent, its a cave troll... NO, its Super Bolg. Angelic

I can see it now with his dwarf beard cape and skeletal costumeCrazy


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by Ataahua on Sep 27 2012, 12:36am)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Sep 27 2012, 12:06am


Views: 738
LOL


Quote
then I realized it might come true

Yeah that's my fear too, that there just adding and adding material no matter how ludicrous it would be in Tolkien's world just to get as much into these middle earth films as possible.. because they know this is the last hurrah.



Carne
Tol Eressea

Sep 27 2012, 12:16am


Views: 747
Bolg

His action figure description say something like "but then he meets an unexpected opponent" referring to Gandalf. So obviously Gandalf is the better one.

And I see nothing wrong with making Bolg into a powerful bad guy. In the movies Gandalf is not the "pew pew" super wizard so why should it matter if he has a hard time fighting Bolg?


(This post was edited by Carne on Sep 27 2012, 12:17am)


Elessar
Valinor


Sep 27 2012, 12:22am


Views: 749
Some tweaking

I'm sure some tweaking will be done. I truly doubt any of it with this sequence will be dramatic but that may not stop some from having a seizure over it. lol



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 27 2012, 2:16am


Views: 720
That statement does not necessarily refer to Gandalf.

Following the book's narrative, it more likely nods to Beorn by film three.

As to the power of Gandalf. . . he is certainly portrayed as being far more powerful than any single orc, be that orc a giant orc badass or no.

How long would said orc hold its own against The Nine, gathered together, by the time of Fellowship. Gandalf does this, from dusk until dawn (oh not in the movies, I know, but all the same).

In book and film he defeats The Balrog. Could you see any orc standing against any Balrog for more than 15 seconds? Foolishness. And the "pew pew" is an irriquisite strawman. No one said anything about "pew pew" (what is that, anyway? I am assuming its lazers shooting from his eyes or some such thing). But how much can you diminish him before he becomes, as a wizard at least, something of a dissapointment at best and a bit of a joke at worst. To suggest that any one orc would be anything akin to his equal is both inaccurate and demeaning.

In Reply To
His action figure description say something like "but then he meets an unexpected opponent" referring to Gandalf. So obviously Gandalf is the better one.

And I see nothing wrong with making Bolg into a powerful bad guy. In the movies Gandalf is not the "pew pew" super wizard so why should it matter if he has a hard time fighting Bolg?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 27 2012, 2:25am


Views: 736
Okay...


In Reply To

In Reply To
I think it diminishes the Wizard a bit to suggest that one big orc would be able to fight him to a draw. . . but he could stand against Nazgul and a Balrog. Bolg is just no Balrog. Bolg is not a Power. Bolg leading a small group of orcs against Gandalf sure, but Bolg in single combat??? Frown

In Reply To


Just call me cynical but at this point I don't put any radically drastic changes past him. This will likely be the last voyage into middle earth. So why not shoot for the stars and just include what ever he wants, no matter how ridiculous? He has to make Bolg seem like he is the witch king of the Hobbit movies, were already getting a Zombie Azog from the character descriptions, why not super Bolg,... faster than a running Warg, more powerful than all the istari, able to leap over Orthanc in a single bound, Look to DolGuldur, its an Ent, its a cave troll... NO, its Super Bolg. Angelic

I can see it now with his dwarf beard cape and skeletal costumeCrazy


You're cynical.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


Milknut
Rohan


Sep 27 2012, 5:55am


Views: 705
Peter's a fan, too, you know.

He's made some controversial decisions, sure, but as far as I can tell they've been intended to be in the service of telling a good story.

And please don't flame me for that, purists. Wink

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 27 2012, 5:58am


Views: 708
He is most certainly a fan

But honestly, I would rather have someone who dislikes the book, yet is a master film-maker, adapt it for the screen.


Milknut
Rohan


Sep 27 2012, 5:59am


Views: 699
Sharp words!

I liked the films. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I tend to think not.

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 27 2012, 6:17am


Views: 702
Not at all

Its just that IMO, a film adaptation of one of the most beloved books of all time should have been more than just "liked."

They should have been unrivaled masterpieces of film.

My expectations were just too high.


Milknut
Rohan


Sep 27 2012, 6:20am


Views: 704
Um

Okay, I thought they were unrivaled masterpieces of film. The point stands.

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 27 2012, 6:22am


Views: 701
What point?

You thought they were great, and I didn't.

There are no fools, or geniuses, in that equation. It's all just taste.


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 27 2012, 8:00am


Views: 716
Because he doesn't want his films to be ridiculous?

He'd rather people enjoyed them, and he knows how well-known the story is and how - dare I say - nit-picking certain sections of the audience. What interest could he possibly have in ruining the whole thing?


I agree with Tim - you're cynical!


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 27 2012, 8:21am


Views: 689
Interest

Peter Jackson's stated interest is making a movie he wants to see. So it just depends on that. I think he's a tad more mindful of the audience than that, but it is what he said.


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 27 2012, 8:51am


Views: 683
I agree.

Gandalf's power is largely spiritual, not physical. Against a "demonic" being, like the Balrog, "angelic" Gandalf is more powerful. But against a physical opponent, like a powerful orc or cave troll, someone like Aragorn would be more effective.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 27 2012, 10:11am


Views: 691
That's true of anyone who does anything artistic...

The finished product has to be done in the way that seems best to the artist. If it's a commission then changes might have to be made, but if the artist doesn't like it in the first instance there's a good chance no one else will either.

That said, it still seems a bit pointless to me to suggest all sorts of ludicrous things he might do with the story, just because he can.


dave_lf
Gondor

Sep 27 2012, 12:38pm


Views: 688
Bolg's opponent

There is a "Bolg and Gandalf" action figure pack, according to this. IMO, the evidence points toward Bolg being killed by Gandalf (comparatively) early in the trilogy, and Azog taking his place as the big baddie at Bo5A.

I would further speculate that Azog will meet his end at Dain's hands rather than Beorn's for symmetry reasons.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 28 2012, 1:18am


Views: 653
Here is why that doesn't add up or make sense..

First, Spiritual and Magical power has a certain value, otherwise there would be no need to fear a Balrog or The Witch King anymore than one would fear a Troll or an orc chieftan (other than intelligence, perhaps). If the notion is, as long as you don't wield any significant magic, no one can wield magical force against you, then none need be worried about the sorcery of The Enemy.

Also, there are obvious questions that beg asking. . . if your magical wards can shatter a Demon enchanted, twenty foot, flaming sword, why can it not do the same to an orc blade? If you can hurl Saruman The White himself across his own throne room, why can you not hold down a single orc with your power and run him through? Obsessed with fighting fair>?

In Reply To
Gandalf's power is largely spiritual, not physical. Against a "demonic" being, like the Balrog, "angelic" Gandalf is more powerful. But against a physical opponent, like a powerful orc or cave troll, someone like Aragorn would be more effective.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 28 2012, 1:30am


Views: 654
Also Carne, even by the less than book potent version of Gandalf seen in LOTR

and glimpsed in TTT (atop Zirak-Zigal), the powers he does display makes the notion of him being "hard put to it" by one orc stretches credulity. Obvious questions beg asking. . . if your magical wards can shatter a Demon enchanted, twenty foot, flaming sword, why can it not do the same to an orc blade? If you can hurl Saruman The White himself across his own throne room, why can you not hold down a single orc with your power and run him through? Obsessed with fighting fair>?

In Reply To
His action figure description say something like "but then he meets an unexpected opponent" referring to Gandalf. So obviously Gandalf is the better one.

And I see nothing wrong with making Bolg into a powerful bad guy. In the movies Gandalf is not the "pew pew" super wizard so why should it matter if he has a hard time fighting Bolg?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 28 2012, 4:41am


Views: 743
What Gandalf CAN do vs. what he wants (or is allowed) to do

I've always kinda determined that when Gandalf doesn't carry the dwarves along with his power, he's doing it on purpose.

It's not a perfect reconciliation between Hobbit Gandalf and LOTR Gandalf, but it'll do for me.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 28 2012, 4:57am


Views: 733
Right

I always had the general sense that Gandalf sort of followed the Spiderman code.

"With great power comes great responsibility."

He was a humble guy, he didn't want the Ring, and he didn't want to abuse the powers he possessed.

Works for me.


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 28 2012, 7:53am


Views: 730
I think the Istari

are actually forbidden to use their full Maia power (apart from against other beings of the same rank).

The are meant to act as guides, not deus ex machina.

Saruman misuses his powers, and has them removed completely.

Gandalf bends the rules occasionally.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 28 2012, 4:27pm


Views: 725
Exactly

 Sort of like less-restrained, and more mission-oriented, eagles.

They can meddle, but they should not meddle too overtly. And they certainly shouldn't "control," as Saruman does.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Sep 28 2012, 4:29pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 29 2012, 12:46am


Views: 710
They are restrained, and their greater Spiritual power is, seemingly

quarantined from their access. However they still had "many powers of mind and hand" which they were able to access and completely allowed to access.

Gandalf displays great power in aiding the dwarves. Not the full power of a Maia by ANY means. . . but a lot in a tight corner, as the saying went. I don't have an issue at all with Gandalf finding himself in a pinch. I do take issue with one single orc being suggested as a great challenge to him, as opposed to Wraith-Lords, Demon Thanes and other Wizards etc.

In Reply To
are actually forbidden to use their full Maia power (apart from against other beings of the same rank).

The are meant to act as guides, not deus ex machina.

Saruman misuses his powers, and has them removed completely.

Gandalf bends the rules occasionally.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Tim
Tol Eressea


Sep 29 2012, 2:04pm


Views: 710
What is vs. reality

I think my point was it may at that point SEEM to be a challenge to Gandy because he's making it look that way - so the dwarves don't end up leaning on him even more than they do.

Again, not a perfect way to look at things. I kinda believe that Tolkien hadn't fleshed out just how powerful Gandalf was when he wrote The Hobbit, then decided to make him stronger for LOTR.

But I am no Tolkien expert, I could be wrong.

King Arthur: You know much that is hidden oh Tim.

Tim: Quite.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 29 2012, 6:39pm


Views: 700
I think there is something to your speculation. But my issue isn't with the way Tolkien

portrays Gandalf's power. It is with the possibility of Jackson underrepresenting it. I don't know what the Bolg situation will be. I do know that Tolkien never portrays any seen in which Gandalf remotely seems to be seriously threatened by single combat with any orc or goblin. Hundreds of orcs and wargs, yes, but not one goblin, no matter how tough. That is all I am saying. I would be fine with Gandalf having to fend off a score of orcs led by Bolg. But to suggest otherwise kind of gets into implying that Gandalf is, if anything, less capable of handling himself in a tight situation than Aragorn is. . . but we all know Aragorn could not begin to face a Balrog.

In Reply To
I think my point was it may at that point SEEM to be a challenge to Gandy because he's making it look that way - so the dwarves don't end up leaning on him even more than they do.

Again, not a perfect way to look at things. I kinda believe that Tolkien hadn't fleshed out just how powerful Gandalf was when he wrote The Hobbit, then decided to make him stronger for LOTR.

But I am no Tolkien expert, I could be wrong.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 7:13am


Views: 687
Tolkien never portrays Gandalf the Grey as that powerful

Sure, he kills the Goblin King, but he does it with wits, blinding his opponent with bright light. Trolls? Defeated with wits. Wargs? Gandalf is over-matched and has to be rescued. Tolkien doesn't detail what happened in Dol Guldur, but he make it clear he barely got out alive. Who kills Smaug? Certainly not Gandalf. Battle of five armies? Gandalf's deeds don't even warrant a mention, it's the dwarves, Beorn and the eagles that clock up the kills. Even the Balrog, against whom Gandalf can bring his full power, is a draw, wheras the elf warrior Glorfindel defeats one straight up.

As for Bolg, he takes out three of the most powerful dwarves (whilst Gandalf did nothing worth mentioning), and is defeated by a giant man-bear. So I don't have a problem with him being a serious threat to Gandalf.

I seem to recall somewhere Tolkien wrote "the role of the Istari was not to match power with power, but to bring council".

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 7:18am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:01am


Views: 674
He was powerful enough though.

Tolkien deliberately sent him on the Dol Guldur journey, so that he wasn't involved in the main Quest. Had he stayed with the company, everything from Mirkwood to the death of Smaug would have been a lot different.

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:10am


Views: 669
Only because

he would have got aid from Thranduil, rather than get thrown into prison.

He adds wisdom, not power.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:14am


Views: 651
Depends how you define "power"

With great power, comes significant wisdom.

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:30am


Views: 674
This is one of the most untrue things I have ever read.


In Reply To
With great power, comes significant wisdom.


A Far Dragon is the best kind...

(This post was edited by Fardragon on Sep 30 2012, 10:31am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:36am


Views: 667
Was Galadriel (Third Age) both very powerful, and very wise? /

 

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:47am


Views: 641
But it's wasn't power that made her wise.

Indeed, power usually has exactly the opposite effect, both in Tolkien and in reality.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 10:50am


Views: 636
Ahh, it seems you misunderstood me then

And that's down to how I worded it. I didn't mean that one who becomes very powerful, also becomes wise. Look at Sauron ...

But power and wisdom do go hand in hand. You can be very powerful, and very wise. Especially if your power is wisdom. Which, as I suggested above, is the case of Galadriel and Gandalf.

In any case, I think we're going off on a tangent. My original point is that Gandalf was powerful (physically and through wisdom) and had to be shoed away, for the story of The Hobbit to work. The Quest would have been too easy if Gandalf had stayed with the company.

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(This post was edited by DanielLB on Sep 30 2012, 10:52am)


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 10:55am


Views: 647
Wisdom can give you a degree of power

Which, in Gandalf's case, manifests largely as foresight. He is able to foresee that Smaug could ally with Sauron, and foresee what chain of events to set in motion in order to neutralise the threat (but the details are hidden from him).

He knows which pieces to move in order to defeat Smaug, but he can't march up to the front gate of the Lonely Mountain and defeat Smaug himself.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 11:07am


Views: 628
Agreed

I don't think Gandalf the Grey could have defeated Smaug alone, though it might depend on the circumstances and the environment. Look at the Balrog, Gandalf was only able to destroy him after he was quenched by the lake.

In any case, Gandalf staying with the company would have had other important repercussions., and still made the Quest easier.

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 2:16pm


Views: 627
I don't think Gandalf

would have any more chance against Smaug than anyone else, including Bilbo.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 2:38pm


Views: 631
Only Bard could have defeated him then? /

 

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 30 2012, 4:40pm


Views: 610
In a sense, yes.

Bard is the one the Valar "meant" to kill Smaug. So he is in the right place at the right time, with the right skills, the right weapon, and the right information.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 30 2012, 4:45pm


Views: 617
Yes, Bard was "meant" to

kill Smaug. But I'm sure others, including Gandalf, could have done some damage ... if that's the way the story was suppose to go. No?

Smile

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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 1 2012, 8:09am


Views: 633
He does not blind his opponent with Bright lights. That is a Jackson thing.

Has everyone been reading these chapters? "The Lights went out, the great fire went off into a tower of glowing blue smoke that scattered white sparks amongst the goblins. . . the sparks were burning holes IN the goblins etc."

The Warg scene in LOTR, "In The Wavering Firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow. He rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king. . . stooping like a cloud, he stode to meet the wargs. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. . . it flared with radiance like lightning and his voice rolled like thunder. . . the tree above him burst into a bloom of brilliant flame. . . the fire lept from tree top to tree top etc. etc."

To quote Sam, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't the wolf's belly. . . What did I tell you Mr. Pippin?! Wolves won't get him! That was an eye opener and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head he did!"

He also battles all The Nine Nazgul Lords, wielding in some fashion searing flame and "lightning that leaps up from the ground" from nightfall until dawn. Do you think Bolg could manage half as much?

And he is not shown to bring his full power to bear against The Balrog. Also, Glorfindel was very mighty among The High Elves, and even so, his feat in defeating a Balrog (it was more the fall than Glorfindel btw) was accounted a very mighty and legendary deed among the Elves, and a deed which few Elves ever replicated, whilst many of their great warriors and some of their great kings were felled by The Demons of Might.

Gandalf is limited in his earthly form, and forbidden from matching the power of Sauron with his own Maia power. He is not an all powerful super badass, and I am not suggesting otherwise. He is, however, very powerful. As mighty, in his way, as dread Powers like The Balrog (who, I will remind you, routed an entire kingdom of dwarves, after slaying their kings and many of their warriors, and the very power and fear of whom drove hosts of Elves from Lothlorien). He actually was GOING to kill a great number of the goblins, at his own expense, hurling down like a Thunderbolt. And at The Battle of Five armies, he is merely reffered to as "preparing some magic blast". Also, the lack of mention beyond him preparing some magic blast does not mean he did nothing worth mentioning. Thorin is in large part mentioned because he led a charge and the focus was on his tale, which was soon to end. Beorn played the key role in the saving of Thorin. The Eagles were the fifth army. You cannot assume that Gandalf, Thranduil, Bard, Dain and a host of other notables did not do any impressive fighting just because Tolkien didn't spend a paragraph of "oh by the way and in the meantime" on each of them.

You are seriously misrepresenting and underrepresenting a number of events here. I am not suggesting for a moment that Gandalf would come through wielding unstoppable Dumbledore spells, but let us dispense right now with the utterly false notion that he never is shown to do more than shine some damn light in people's faces. Peter may have portrayed it thus (and actually, even Peter actually gives him much more powers than you seem willing to credit him withm and certainly more than enough to overwhelm any lone goblin or orc in combat), but in the books he is clearly shown to wield notable Power, and "while he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight place." As Strider puts it, "I do not know of anything that could have hindered him, save The Enemy Himself. But do not give up hope! Gandalf is greater than you Shire-Folk know. As a rule you can see only his jokes and toys. . ." Aragorn later says, as they journey through Moria, "Do not be afraid! Do not be afraid. I have been with Gandalf on many a journey, if never one so dark, and there are tales in Rivendell of greater deeds of his than any I have seen."

Lets not totally disregard the books in making our assesments Fandragon. Gandalf did not storm about the world in an overwhelming godform, but he was a Force to be reckoned with, and beyond the recokoning of any singular orc warrior. For these films to suggest otherwise would not only disrespect Gandalf. . . it would rather badly downplay and disprespect the dread power of The Balrog.

In Reply To
Sure, he kills the Goblin King, but he does it with wits, blinding his opponent with bright light. Trolls? Defeated with wits. Wargs? Gandalf is over-matched and has to be rescued. Tolkien doesn't detail what happened in Dol Guldur, but he make it clear he barely got out alive. Who kills Smaug? Certainly not Gandalf. Battle of five armies? Gandalf's deeds don't even warrant a mention, it's the dwarves, Beorn and the eagles that clock up the kills. Even the Balrog, against whom Gandalf can bring his full power, is a draw, wheras the elf warrior Glorfindel defeats one straight up.

As for Bolg, he takes out three of the most powerful dwarves (whilst Gandalf did nothing worth mentioning), and is defeated by a giant man-bear. So I don't have a problem with him being a serious threat to Gandalf.

I seem to recall somewhere Tolkien wrote "the role of the Istari was not to match power with power, but to bring council".


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 1 2012, 8:17am


Views: 620
No. Not just because of Thranduil. Tolkien specifically said he had to find somewhere to

send Gandalf because of the Wizard's power. He would have constantly overshadowed Bilbo. He would have kept them on the path, and driven off any over bold spiders and forest creatures, robbing Bilbo of his moment etc. etc. He did rather a great deal more than the "blinding his opponent with light" that you seem to remember in the Great Goblins cavern. You also managed to forget the several Goblins (at least six, and probably as many as 10, for there were 6 for each dwarf and 4 even for Bilbo) who were struck dead by the Wizard's lightning upon trying to grab him. A very serious omission if we are really considering what he was capable of doing, even in front of others. Yes, his friendship with Thranduil would have voided the incident there, but the entire journey through Mirkwood would have gone differently with him present. Most nasty forest creatures don't care for uncanny fire that burns into your flesh and engulfs you in moments if not quickly put out.

In Reply To
he would have got aid from Thranduil, rather than get thrown into prison.

He adds wisdom, not power.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 1 2012, 2:49pm


Views: 621
Gandalf's power

boils down to simply knowing what to do in a given situation.

Can he blast enemies out of existence with magic? Maybe some weak ones, but most he has to stick with a sword, just like everyone else. Your example indicated what he isn't capable of doing: blasting 88 goblins. Nor can he blast Nazgul, or trolls, or the Great Goblin, or wargs.

Is he immune to injury? No, his physical form can be injured or killed with a weapon just like a mortal. He can be sent back if the Valar choose, but he will need a new body and it takes some time to recover.

Does he have superhuman strength? Can he fly? Can he teleport? Can he move at superhuman speed? Can he turn invisible? is he incorruptible? No to all of these.

Even a Maia at full power, augmented by the ring of power, can be defeated by a mortal (Isuldur, and that's not the only time mortals and elves defeat Maia in combat).

And, the Istari are further limited by the physical forms they inhabit. Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. It's the same Maia, so the power level must be tied to the physical form.

And then he has "rules of engagement", to use a modern military term, which limit what he is allowed to do.

To summarise:

1) Maia are far from omnipotent, and can be defeated by mortals.

2) Istari are further limited by the form they inhabit.

3) They are limited further by rules they are supposed to follow.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2012, 12:55am


Views: 612
Some corrections. And sorry about hijacking this post. Amended later.

1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.

2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.

3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?

As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons, but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.

He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed. Aside from obvious things like surviving the fall with The Balrog, or in the films, surviving Saruman propelling him at high speeds against the walls and high ceiling of Orthanc, there are comments in the books, including his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."

He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin. Goblins see very well in the dark, so the fact that after the flash they had no better idea of where he had dissapeared to than the dwarves suggest some ability to become quite unobtrusive. Invisibility was the least of The Ring's Powers, and was not a distinguishing trait, else it would have been identified sooner. Of course, invisibility that works on Orcs would likely not work against Balrogs, Sauron or other Spiritually powerful evils.

Isildur, Gil-Galad and Elindil (who together overwhelmed Sauron) were fated. Eowyn and Merry were far outmatched by THe Witch King, but sometimes fate and The Will of The Valar prevails over the balance of lesser Powers.

As to defeating Elves and Men defeating Maia. . . rare and legendary even for The High Elves. There is no account of a mortal human doing so, save the mixed situation of Isildur, after Sauron had already been worn by battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil together.

In Reply To
boils down to simply knowing what to do in a given situation.

Can he blast enemies out of existence with magic? Maybe some weak ones, but most he has to stick with a sword, just like everyone else. Your example indicated what he isn't capable of doing: blasting 88 goblins. Nor can he blast Nazgul, or trolls, or the Great Goblin, or wargs.

Is he immune to injury? No, his physical form can be injured or killed with a weapon just like a mortal. He can be sent back if the Valar choose, but he will need a new body and it takes some time to recover.

Does he have superhuman strength? Can he fly? Can he teleport? Can he move at superhuman speed? Can he turn invisible? is he incorruptible? No to all of these.

Even a Maia at full power, augmented by the ring of power, can be defeated by a mortal (Isuldur, and that's not the only time mortals and elves defeat Maia in combat).

And, the Istari are further limited by the physical forms they inhabit. Gandalf the White is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey. It's the same Maia, so the power level must be tied to the physical form.

And then he has "rules of engagement", to use a modern military term, which limit what he is allowed to do.

To summarise:

1) Maia are far from omnipotent, and can be defeated by mortals.

2) Istari are further limited by the form they inhabit.

3) They are limited further by rules they are supposed to follow.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Fardragon
Rohan

Oct 2 2012, 8:05am


Views: 670
You may hero-worship Gandalf, but it's not consistent with Tolkien


In Reply To
1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.


If he could do that, why doesn't he blast the worgs, or the trolls, or the wolves, or the Watcher in the Water? Why does he need to create a detraction of smoke and fire if he could just blast everything in his path with lightning? Read the Silmarillion. Not even an unrestrained Maia can do that.

2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.


Quote
3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?


Yes. Bolg is a first rank hero-orc, not cannon fodder. Bolg can beat Thorin. Thorin is a first rank hero, on a similar level to Aragorn. Aragorn can go up against Nazgul, so could Bolg (if they where on opposite sides).


Quote
As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons,


I see not indication of that in the books, and it seems unlikely, since Maia are killed by mortal weapons in the Silmarillion. The Balrog killed by Glorfindel for one.


Quote
but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.


If he isn't invulnerable (which we know he isn't because he has his arm in a sling after the battle), then he can be defeated by an orc with a sword.


Quote
He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed.


Wrong. it is clear in the Cahadras incident that Boromir and Aragorn are physically stronger than Gandalf, since they clear the path through the snow. And Legolas is faster.


Quote
his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."


Lifting a single human if far from superhuman. Boromir could have done that easily. It's "hidden" strength because Gandalf looks like an old man.


Quote
He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin.


If you can turn invisible, you don't need destractions of flashes, smoke, and flares to blind your enemies. You would be able to pass through Moria or Dol Guldur in total safety. And it makes magic rings wholly unremarkable. There is no indication that Sauron or any other Maia can become invisible without the aid of Magic rings (Sauron could shapeshift though, and there is some indication that Radagast can too - THIS is a Maia power, but not one Gandalf ever shows any sign of possessing).

There are other examples of Istari limitations too. Saruman uses black powder to blast Helm's Deep, not magic (as he does in the animated version). He isn't able to blast the ents out of existence with fireballs. Indeed, if his magic was as powerful as you imagine, why would machines and technology hold any interest for him, when he could do anything more easily with magic?

That's quite enough. I'm sorry, but your ideas about what wizards can do owes more to Dungeons and Dragons (and the sort of fantasies that Sam Gamgee believes) that the subtle magic of Tolkein.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 3 2012, 12:51am


Views: 715
Challenge accepted. You have managed to ignore a lot of passages from the book.

I am not basing my quotes on any Dungeons and Dragons manual. You are simply pretending that whole scenes in the novels did not happen, because you preffer Gandalf as a more limited creature than he actually is.

Are you saying that he DIDN'T kill those goblins with a blast? That the book is wrong? I didn't say he was without limitation. It is likely that such a forceful display was taxing and required a little time and breathing space for him to repeat. I did read The Simlarillion. You will recall such things as Sauron defying the Lightning of The Valar as he stood atop the Numenorean Temple, ere it was cast into the sea.

Aragorn's dealing with five (not Nine) Nazgul is a much questioned case. Also, they had achieved the infection of Frodo, and were likely already greatly weakened when Aragorn encountered them. . . because mere days before they were locked in an 8 to 12 hour battle with one of the mightier of The Istari!

There is more than indication, there is explicit commentary. To Gimli, Aragorn (who is wielding the reforged Narsil as Anduril!) and Legolas, The Wizard himself says, "No blame done to you, no harm done to me. Indeed, none of you has ANY weapon that could hurt me." Also, the weapons of The High Elves were very magical, Glorfindel was fated etc.

It is not clear that they are stronger. They are a little taller, but the fact that they do the digging doesn't mean they are stronger. Tolkien speaks of Gandalf ocassionally displaying greater than human strength. You are desperate to lessen him, but your arguments aren't well based in what appears in the books.

As to invisibility, when the flash was done, no one saw The Wizard. His powers are not spelled out, but the Ring is not made remarkable just because it can make you invisible. Lesser Rings could have that power. Also, did you NOT read the part where I said that the likes of Sauron might well have been able to detect a person who might pass unseen to some lesser creatures (like orc rabble)? And the rest of your arguments are strawmen. I said, as did the book, that The Wizard could blast a few orcs away in a pinch. That does not equate to being able to blow up entire buildings, or shoot fireballs out of your eyes to consume giant tree people, one after another. Also, Gandalf was more skilled with fire enchantments than Saruman.

In Reply To

In Reply To
1) A blast that will kill 6 to 10 goblins would probably kill one big orc.


If he could do that, why doesn't he blast the worgs, or the trolls, or the wolves, or the Watcher in the Water? Why does he need to create a detraction of smoke and fire if he could just blast everything in his path with lightning? Read the Silmarillion. Not even an unrestrained Maia can do that.

2) Gandalf testing out his awesome new sword on The Great Goblin is not proof that he could not have killed the monster in any other way.


Quote
3)Nazgul are powerful sorcerers. If he were facing The Nine in Dol Guldur (perhaps a transplant of his battle with them that was omitted from the FOTR film) you wouldn't hear me complaining about misrepresentation of power. Are you suggesting Bolg is as mighty as The Nine?


Yes. Bolg is a first rank hero-orc, not cannon fodder. Bolg can beat Thorin. Thorin is a first rank hero, on a similar level to Aragorn. Aragorn can go up against Nazgul, so could Bolg (if they where on opposite sides).


Quote
As Gandalf The White, he was impervious to mortal weapons,


I see not indication of that in the books, and it seems unlikely, since Maia are killed by mortal weapons in the Silmarillion. The Balrog killed by Glorfindel for one.


Quote
but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing The Grey. Did I say he was invulnerable in his manlike incarnation? Don't recall having done so.


If he isn't invulnerable (which we know he isn't because he has his arm in a sling after the battle), then he can be defeated by an orc with a sword.


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He does have superhuman strength. Not on the level of Superman or He-Man of course, but the books describe several situations where his hidden physical strength was revealed.


Wrong. it is clear in the Cahadras incident that Boromir and Aragorn are physically stronger than Gandalf, since they clear the path through the snow. And Legolas is faster.


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his lifting Faramir from the pyre as easily as one might lift a small child, "revealing the strength that lay hidden within him. . ."


Lifting a single human if far from superhuman. Boromir could have done that easily. It's "hidden" strength because Gandalf looks like an old man.


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He probably can turn invisible. Recall, after the flash amidst The Goblins, no one sees him again until he performs his fire enchantments in the cave of The Great Goblin.


If you can turn invisible, you don't need destractions of flashes, smoke, and flares to blind your enemies. You would be able to pass through Moria or Dol Guldur in total safety. And it makes magic rings wholly unremarkable. There is no indication that Sauron or any other Maia can become invisible without the aid of Magic rings (Sauron could shapeshift though, and there is some indication that Radagast can too - THIS is a Maia power, but not one Gandalf ever shows any sign of possessing).

There are other examples of Istari limitations too. Saruman uses black powder to blast Helm's Deep, not magic (as he does in the animated version). He isn't able to blast the ents out of existence with fireballs. Indeed, if his magic was as powerful as you imagine, why would machines and technology hold any interest for him, when he could do anything more easily with magic?

That's quite enough. I'm sorry, but your ideas about what wizards can do owes more to Dungeons and Dragons (and the sort of fantasies that Sam Gamgee believes) that the subtle magic of Tolkein.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."