The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit: Khamūl at Dol Guldur?

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Khamūl at Dol Guldur?

DeadRabbits
Rohan

Sep 23 2012, 1:12pm

Views: 1901

Khamūl at Dol Guldur?

We know that the ringwraiths most likely will be featured in these movies somehow - could this mean that they will be present at Dol Guldur and that Sauron will reveal his second deadliest servant? After all, Khamūl was the lieutenant of Dol Guldur, wasn't he?

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought

Danielos
Rohan

Sep 23 2012, 1:33pm

Views: 843

Not likely

Khamūl is not a name used in either The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. So PJ can“t distinguish that ringwraith!

DeadRabbits
Rohan

Sep 23 2012, 1:47pm

Views: 795

The question is though...

... if Tolkien Estate can claim the rights to the name Khamūl, since the character obviously is in the LoTR books (he was the ringwraith that pursued the hobbits to the Bucklebury ferry, if I'm not mistaken).

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought

Sinister71
Tol Eressea

Sep 23 2012, 1:54pm

Views: 702

Don't see the need for it

I'm sure the wraiths will be shown but hopefully their screen time is minimal and they don't need to go onto too much detail about them. Crazy

Show them back from their tombs and move on that's my opinion Angelic

Elutherian
Rohan

Sep 23 2012, 2:02pm

Views: 700

Unlikely...

...and it's unfortunate. Khamul is a really cool name and a really scary character. But it would be too repetitive of The Witch King to distinguish him in the films.

The Grey Pilgrim, they once called me. Three hundred lives of men I walked this earth, and now I have no time...

GoodGuyA
Lorien

Sep 23 2012, 3:17pm

Views: 636

Wait, this reminded me of something

Remember in Vlog 7 where Alan Lee and John Howe show a little montage of their work? I think it's Alan who you can see in a make-up chair with a long wavey wig. Wasn't he also one of the Nine Kings of Men in the prologue? Does this imply that they will again appear as in those forms? Somebody find a photo and point out who's cameoing!

(This post was edited by GoodGuyA on Sep 23 2012, 3:19pm)

Sinister71
Tol Eressea

Sep 23 2012, 3:23pm

Views: 605

Could be a cameo simply unrelated

They had multiple cameos in all the LOTR films. Smile

So I'm hoping its nothing to do with the 9

Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 23 2012, 3:37pm

Views: 616

He may be

Though not in name...

In the new trailer, I do hear what sounds like a Ringwraith screech during what seems to be the Gandalf/ Dol Guldur scene...

Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Sep 23 2012, 3:54pm

Views: 577

Do Ring-wraiths think much about their past lives?

I get the impression that Sauron preferred his servants to not dwell on their pasts. That could lessen his control over them, which he would not have tolerated. I doubt that he often used their proper names.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White

Amusings
The Shire

Sep 23 2012, 3:56pm

Views: 606

'The Nine?!'

Gandalf's shock at hearing Saruman reference the nine in Fellowship of the Ring could justify there being some interaction and encounter with them in the Hobbit movies. Though as with Sauron I can't see this being in the first movie by any means, it would be pushing too much Sauron-LOTR material in at the forefront of this trilogy where it will be more prudent in the second and third films.

Trailer breakdown for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey now live!
http://www.wtfoosh.blogspot.co.uk/...09/test-article.html

Sinister71
Tol Eressea

Sep 23 2012, 4:04pm

Views: 586

they have already mentioned

ring wraiths being released from Tombs in the Hobbit films somewhere. which we all know contradicts PJ's own scene in FOTR where Gandalf seems surprised to hear of their return. Only option might be Radagast doesn't get a chance to tell Gandalf about them, or Peter Jackson isn't worrying about continuity with his previous films...We'll just have to wait until December to find out which it is.

Amusings
The Shire

Sep 23 2012, 4:06pm

Views: 569

Different reading...

I always interpreted Gandalf's shocked 'the nine?!' as being an 'oh no they're on the case and getting involved' as opposed to it being the first he knows of their return. Particularly seeing as the Ringwraiths direct ties to the ring, him realising it is the one ring and then hearing they have left Minas Morgul in pursuit of it was what registered the shock... that's how I saw it at least.

Trailer breakdown for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey now live!
http://www.wtfoosh.blogspot.co.uk/...09/test-article.html

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Sep 23 2012, 4:09pm

Views: 541

I agree with your interpretation of Gandalf's reaction to news of The Nine.//

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 23 2012, 4:12pm

Views: 579

Gandalf is disturbed to learn

That they have left Minas Morgul. I don't think that he is "surprised to hear of their return" as you put it - return from where?

The transcript is as follows:

SARUMAN The hour is later than you think. Sauron's forces are already moving. The Nine have left Minas Mordor.

GANDALF The Nine?

SARUMAN They crossed the river Isen on midsummer's eve, disguised as riders in black.

GANDALF They have reached the Shire!

SARUMAN They will find the Ring, and kill the one who carries it.

GANDALF Frodo!

I don't see any continuity issue here.

LR

Sinister71
Tol Eressea

Sep 23 2012, 4:18pm

Views: 557

the way he says "the Nine"

to me always meant he didn't realize they were out and about... I'm sure he knew they were at Minas Morgul. But to here they left or were active again just seemed to be a surprise to him IMO

I never like the whole Tombs nonsense anyways since its all made up by PJ anyways from vague notes

Amusings
The Shire

Sep 23 2012, 4:18pm

Views: 517

Agreed

Hoping the above post wasn't in response to mine as I completely agree and have said in a previous post I believe the shock was that they have left Minas Morgul and are on the pursuit.

Trailer breakdown for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey now live!
http://www.wtfoosh.blogspot.co.uk/...09/test-article.html

Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 23 2012, 4:27pm

Views: 515

Absolutely - so no continuity issue. We all seem to be in agreement.

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Sep 23 2012, 5:00pm

Views: 533

Couldn't they just call him "Khandar the Easterling" or something?

And say it's a "new character"...? That'd be one way of avoiding legal repercussions. Wink

Anyway, I'd like to see him in the Necromancer storyline somewhere.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Sep 23 2012, 5:01pm)

Milknut
Rohan

Sep 23 2012, 5:51pm

Views: 470

There are 60 or so years in between.

Plenty of time for Gandalf to get used to the idea that the nine are not riding about.

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___

DanielLB
Immortal

Sep 23 2012, 5:57pm

Views: 464

Wraiths are a given.

I'll be surprised if there not shown in some form.

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Elessar
Valinor

Sep 23 2012, 5:59pm

Views: 439

The nine

I always took it like he was thinking "oh crap now we've got to deal with them."

Reptile
Rivendell

Sep 23 2012, 6:10pm

Views: 442

Dwarves as wraiths?

I keep wondering whether Gandalf will be confronting Thoror as a wraith, or something in between a dwarf and a ring wraith. He did have a ring, right? So wouldn't that be a logical scenario?

"If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."

DanielLB
Immortal

Sep 23 2012, 6:19pm

Views: 433

Just to clarify, I meant Ringwraiths.

But from the first trailer, we know Thrain is "quite right". Wraith? Perhaps ...

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Sep 23 2012, 8:02pm

Views: 369

The Dwarven rings did not bring about Wraithing.//

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Sep 23 2012, 8:03pm

Views: 354

I think he was just out of his mind and not a Wraith.

It would be a big departure from Tolkien.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

DanielLB
Immortal

Sep 23 2012, 8:09pm

Views: 296

One of many departures, Kangi.

I forsee many more departures, some of which may be less accepted than a Wraith-like Thrain. Unsure

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Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 23 2012, 8:11pm

Views: 294

I think it was more

that dwarves where simply too stubborn to become wraiths, although they where corrupted in other ways.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Sep 23 2012, 9:23pm

Views: 287

I think that the Thrain seen in the clip was not a Wraith.

You can vote for departures and see them everywhere you wish. But I think that Dwarves would be unwraithable. This is why the Rings given to the Dwarves did not have that effect upon them. It is much more likely that Thorin has been driven mad by torture.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Sinister71
Tol Eressea

Sep 23 2012, 9:30pm

Views: 274

You did mean Thrain driven mad by torture right?

I think we knew what you meant but I have to say I agree. Plus at this stage hadn't the necromancer already taken Thrain's ring? Seems to me its either one of 2 things A...a reanimated corpse of Thrain in the present time, or B... a mad insane Thrain in 2850 when Gandalf gained the key and map. I'm hoping for option B Smile

GothmogTheBalrog
Rivendell

Sep 23 2012, 10:03pm

Views: 293

Wait.

Khamul isn't a Tolkien name? Then where did it come from?

"It was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it." ~FotR

DanielLB
Immortal

Sep 23 2012, 10:12pm

Views: 287

It is a name made by Tolkien

But only appears in The Unfinished Tales.

PJ and co. do not have film rights to this book, and therefore, can't lift the name from the book.

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Milknut
Rohan

Sep 23 2012, 10:47pm

Views: 230

Yup.

And that's a shocking enough prospect on their own. I think 60 years is long enough for the nine riding out to be a surprise.

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___

Solicitr
Gondor

Sep 24 2012, 12:28am

Views: 212

Not hardly

In Reply To

I think 60 years is long enough for the nine riding out to be a surprise.

Not on an Elf/Wizard time-scale. Barely last week.

Tolkien tells us that the Nine have not been seen since the fall of Minas Ithil in TA 2002, almost a thousand years before.

Kangi Ska
Half-elven

Sep 24 2012, 1:43am

Views: 208

I would find B. closest to the text in LotR Appendices.

Therefore the most likely. All this stuff about a Wraith Thrain is just not acceptable.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

DanielLB
Immortal

Sep 24 2012, 9:27am

Views: 167

A different appearance might also help? /

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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens

Sep 24 2012, 5:34pm

Views: 139

names/rights

But didn't someone say that Radagast supposedly mentions Ungoliant when he meets up with Gandalf in the Trollshaws?

Was Ungoliant ever mentioned by name anywhere in the Lord of the Rings?

Solicitr
Gondor

Sep 24 2012, 5:39pm

Views: 176

Obliquely

In Reply To

But didn't someone say that Radagast supposedly mentions Ungoliant when he meets up with Gandalf in the Trollshaws?

Was Ungoliant ever mentioned by name anywhere in the Lord of the Rings?

"Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world." LR IV/9.

Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 24 2012, 6:44pm

Views: 172

And obliquely equals legally

So Peter Jackson is within his legal rights to use the name.