The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Critique of The Hobbit trilogy in today's Guardian.



Spaldron
Rivendell


Sep 3 2012, 3:32pm


Views: 4618
Critique of The Hobbit trilogy in today's Guardian.

Piece by James Russell claims Pete Jackson is "running on empty".


Quote
It's hard to see how making The Hobbit could be considered a positive step for Jackson. However, splitting the story into three separate films takes the moribund self-absorption of the project to entirely new levels. It looks as if Jackson is running entirely on empty, pushing this side project to ridiculous extremes because he has nothing else to offer.


You can read the full article here.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Elessar
Valinor


Sep 3 2012, 3:37pm


Views: 2619
Not worth taking seriously.

Typical trash tear down article IMO.


(This post was edited by Elessar on Sep 3 2012, 3:37pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 3:37pm


Views: 2360
I don't care about the cold hard profit that WB will make

Sure, it's not morally acceptable, but I'm just glad it's being made into a film. 1 film is great, 3 is a bonus.


Carne
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 3:42pm


Views: 2363
Ah, the Guardian

They kept trashing the Tintin movie over and over again only because the journalist didn't like mo-cap.

As mentioned above me, not to be taken seriously at all.

I think I'll have to wash my eyes with bleach to unsee this ridiculousness.


(This post was edited by Carne on Sep 3 2012, 3:49pm)


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Sep 3 2012, 3:46pm


Views: 2342
Elessar, I agree with you 100%

In my personal opinion, journalists really shouldn't be allowed to make remarks like this until they have actually seen the films for themselves, or at least until they have some blindingly obvious evidence to support claims such as those made in this article.

"Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue, and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends."-Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings.


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 3 2012, 3:47pm


Views: 2500
typical lack of understanding of the book

Given the way the Hobbit jumps the rails over what kind of story it is towards the end, you couldn't make it a single movie without either leaving a lot of people puzzled, or making major plot changes.

Story of the Hobbit in one film = Star Wars (ANH), but Luke decides to sit out the Battle of Yavin and Wedge Antillies destroys the Death Star instead. Wink

It's not its length that makes it three movies, it's its structure.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 3:51pm


Views: 2252
Agreed :-)

Though, it would still be interesting to see what a 1 film adaptation of The Hobbit would be like.


Crunchable Birdses
Rohan


Sep 3 2012, 3:55pm


Views: 2409
I wouldn't expect anything else from The Grauniad to be honest

Those lentil-munchers generally look down snootily on anything unless it's a non-profit foreign-language indie documentary.

* crunch *


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Sep 3 2012, 3:59pm


Views: 2216
It will be created

Over on fanedit!


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 3 2012, 4:02pm


Views: 2280
One film Hobbit


In Reply To
Though, it would still be interesting to see what a 1 film adaptation of The Hobbit would be like.


Everything is the same up until the point when Bilbo kills Smaug and everyone shares out the treasure fairly and goes home.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 4:06pm


Views: 2170
Wouldn't have the same feel as a real film though ;-) /

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 4:07pm


Views: 2281
I don't think it would be that bad!

After all, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is similar size to The Hobbit. And that's not a bad film.


GoodGuyA
Lorien

Sep 3 2012, 4:07pm


Views: 2204
You'd be surprised, my friend

 


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 4:07pm


Views: 2222
Rankin/Bass proved that a one-film adaptation could be done...


In Reply To
Though, it would still be interesting to see what a 1 film adaptation of The Hobbit would be like.



The animated Hobbit manages to tell most of the story in 77 minuites with three major deletions: 1) the character of Beorn; 2) the Wood-elves' feast in Mirkwood; and 3) the subplot with the Arkenstone. As long as you are willing to similarly compress the events of the book, there is no reason why the entire story couldn't be adapted in 2 hours or so.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 3 2012, 4:11pm


Views: 2237
Groupie Site

I haven't read the article yet, but I see it is being trashed. Maybe it is trash. Maybe I'll agree and trash it myself. But if I read these comments from an objective point of view, I'd think this is a "groupie site" that could not possibly have any other response. Or maybe we and the author of the article are all the same, but on different ends of what is true. I'd love to see an objective thought on the article when I get back from reading it just to see if I concur.

Tongue


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Sep 3 2012, 4:12pm


Views: 2162
"It's not its length that makes it three movies, it's its structure."

Words of truth have been spoken.

(I would have settled for two films, but the three part structure is there too. One is way too little.)

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 3 2012, 4:13pm


Views: 2183
Sub plot!

The Arkenstone "sub plot" is probably the most important part of the story. It's about moral, rather than physical, heroism. Being prepared to sacrifice everything - friends, wealth, prospects, in order to do the right thing.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 3 2012, 4:19pm


Views: 2164
Hmmmmm

"It sounds crazy to say, in light of the visionary epic fantasies he has created, but surely he could choose more creatively ambitious projects than this. Tolkien seems to have created the idealised past of Middle Earth in order to escape a confusing present. It's a shame to see Jackson doing the same."

An interesting take. Imagine if Tolkien had kept returning to ME or created a sequel which transpired to be more lengthy than originally planned. Why, oh why didnt he take a crack at a crime-fiction instead of more hobbits I hear the world cry.....

LR


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 3 2012, 4:22pm


Views: 2123
Or, to paraphrase:

"I hate fantasy."

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


imin
Valinor


Sep 3 2012, 4:25pm


Views: 2056
Haha, this is so true! //

 


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 4:26pm


Views: 2164
Welll I'm not suggesting that the Arkenstone should be left out...

...although the animated film managed without it successfully (your mileage may vary). I am only saying that a single-film adaptation of The Hobbit needs to compress and streamline events a bit to keep to a reasonable running time. No major incident would need to be left out, but some would have to be told a bit differently than in the book. And forget about any major additons. You would be lucky to squeeze in anything more than a quick cameo of young 'Estel' in Rivendell.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 3 2012, 4:27pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Sep 3 2012, 4:27pm


Views: 2086
That Dude did say he might have to eat hizz Words..

In my mind he might want to have that Trash article
handy..for breakfast sometime this December?
Bomby


Spaldron
Rivendell


Sep 3 2012, 4:32pm


Views: 2077
Ok then...

You do know that in the time it probably took you to write that post you could've read the entire article by now?

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


painjoiker
Grey Havens


Sep 3 2012, 5:11pm


Views: 2060
He proved that it's possible to cram everything together into one film

It will not be a good film if every detail from the book is compressed into a three hour film...
I find Rankin/Bass version to be to "fast"... I can't enjoy the film as they must hurry to the next location or event...
You get the story done... but not in a good way...

I was VERY relieved when del Toro announced the two film adaption ;)
Now, with the Dol Guldur subplot and dwarven backstory and everything I can easily see the trilogy be a good choice ^^

Vocalist in the semi-progressive metal band Arctic Eclipse


Maiarmike
Grey Havens


Sep 3 2012, 5:23pm


Views: 1953
So they've seen the movies already. Lucky them!...

Oh wait...

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 5:25pm


Views: 1041
This is possibly true -

- I've always thought of this as a pJ fan-site. That may be just me, though. Smile

.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 5:26pm


Views: 1068
Well, Rankin/Bass isn't a 'he', it's a 'they'...

And, yes, the animated Hobbit is extremely rushed. Nonetheless, I contend that one would not even need a three-hour film to adapt The Hobbit--a satisfactory adaptation could probably come in under two hours. That is why I was initially very skeptical about a Hobbit trilogy. Now I see how it might work, but I still have doubts about the final product.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 5:33pm


Views: 1007
Yes, I was irked by that -

"Tolkien seems to have created the idealised past of Middle Earth in order to escape a confusing present."

What books has this bloke been reading? Tongue

.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Sep 3 2012, 5:40pm


Views: 980
We had cinema Critic here that was Such a waste of time

two thirds or more of his so-called Review
was telling the readers
the Plot in his Own words.
Then would make comparations to other films proving over&over
Again his credibility ..which was so self-serving ..

Luckily I got in to an advanced screening once
and they
brought him on stage prior to the screening like he
was " The God of all Cinema critics"
..to only mild applause
And some Boos from the audience?

AFTER the showing I went up to him thrush out my hand
but jerked it away..and Told what an Ass he had been proving to everyone for years.
Bomby


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 3 2012, 5:49pm


Views: 1049
Fan v Groupie

You see it as a truism. I prefer to make a distinction between a "fan" site that can be realistic and objective despite its devotion to a particular realm of interest and a "groupie" site where the object of its affection can do no wrong. I've seen more recent strides along the lines of a balanced fan site here than in the past. I hope they keep it up, but the forums are a bit more collectively extreme in their range. Once you get past a few thousand people, it's less of a book club and more of a convention so you cannot expect a "like-minded community" who only accept agreeable things. I don't, for example, see the self-imposed, gated segregation of those who won't visit this Hobbit forum as a positive thing.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 6:16pm


Views: 953
I don't disagree with this. //

 


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Sep 3 2012, 6:32pm


Views: 968
Sorry . . . can't agree.

I agree that Rankin/Bass version was not a satisfactory rendition . . . but I have it and watch it because it is what we have.
and it does have it's charms . . . some sections are done very well . . . and John Huston as Gandalf was perfect! Smile

However (my opinion only) to make a film that is satisfactory to me would take all of three hours. However, if they're going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the project, well then . . . satisfactory ain't good enough!

A two-film rendition devoted ENITRELY to the Hobbit might seem overkill, but I imagine it would include just about everything, and that would be about right.
And . . . as PJ is harvesting material from the LOTR appendices to fill in those pesky gaps and connect it to the 'his' LOTR . . .
. . . three films is a must.
besides, we'll have more material to choose from for a condensed version . . . Laugh


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


mandel
Rivendell


Sep 3 2012, 6:33pm


Views: 981
People like this don't deserve the title 'critic'

Criticism (film, literature, art) is a valuable thing. But the whole notion of criticism has degraded into a medium in which self-styled experts find clever and snarky ways to deliver their undefended opinions about things. In this case, we have the worst example of this sort of thing: someone opining about films that no one (including its creators) has seen because they don't exist yet - they're still in the 'drafting' process.

I'm of the opinion that the best critics write about things they love, and help us understand how they work, and appreciate why they're worth paying attention to. This is what Tolkien himself did: through laborious, dedicated research, he studied texts that were and remain highly unfashionable among the literati - early medieval northern European literature. He thought long and hard about these texts, doing careful linguistic analysis to uncover aspects of them that were buried under long centuries of neglect and linguistic change, and tried his whole life to articulate what it was in them that he found so moving and profound.

Real criticism of this sort is damn hard work. Luxuriating at your keyboard finding clever ways to mock and insult others is hack work.


(This post was edited by mandel on Sep 3 2012, 6:35pm)


Escapist
Gondor

Sep 3 2012, 6:35pm


Views: 915
I have no interest to choose to spend any time reading the article.

The original post was all I needed to read to make this decision.

"It's hard to see how making The Hobbit could be considered a positive step for Jackson. However, splitting the story into three separate films takes the moribund self-absorption of the project to entirely new levels. It looks as if Jackson is running entirely on empty, pushing this side project to ridiculous extremes because he has nothing else to offer."

This statement is an attack on the director and not a critique of a movie and it is based in assumptions and not grounded in anything outside of a single fact: The Hobbit as three films. This fact alone is no basis for any of these kinds of statements. It sounds like a lot of personal opinions, personally directed comments, and baseless statements.

Nothing about this article is interesting to me, sorry. I have better things to do than reading things like this! I don't think that it has anything to do with groupies or fanbois its really just that the original post started with a baseless personally directed remark about a director in an article that is supposed to be about a movie that the author of the article hasn't even seen yet.

Seriously?
Dismissed ...
Next


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 6:40pm


Views: 939
You are certainly welcome to your own opinion

And many here share your opinion. Notice that I wasn't objecting to the two-part (now three-part) adaptation, just stating that less can also work. A one-film adaptation of The Hobbit would probably have to keep its focus on the more child-like aspects of the story and might end up with a U.S. rating of 'G' or 'PG', so a three-hour version might be too long for a younger audience.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Dlanor da Great
Rivendell

Sep 3 2012, 6:50pm


Views: 909
One short book does not nessecarily interpret as one short movie....

The argument that the book is too short to be made into 3 films is ridiculous.
The book is short because of its own fault. It leaves much to be desired in the way of explanation.
What I mean is that it does not fill out alot of background information until Tolkien writes ANOTHER book that included the appendices.
It has so many characters but says little about most of them.
It has TWO climaxes (Smaug and 5 armies) that are very quickly written in the book.
Gandalfs disappearances are never explained.
These are examples of why the book is so short. Not because it is a quick story. But because it is'nt very in-depth of the events that are taking place ,which is a fault.
Even the short animated movie of 1977 proves that you cannot fit alot in the movie if you stick to just one movie.
Even Tolkien wanted to expand on the story. So obviously, even he felt something was missing.
The book maybe short but the full length audio version is about 11 hours long.
So my point is, how do you make a good character driven movie with so much to be explained, has so many characters , and more than 1 climax, in 2 hours???


TomthePilgrim
Rohan


Sep 3 2012, 6:52pm


Views: 915
Not a problem . . .

. . . I was just saying that, for me, such a short version would not be satisfactory.

The Hobbit was my first glimpse of Tolkien. It is one of my . . . hmmm . . . probably three favorite novels. I didn't read the LOTR until high school, and I loved it, but it still does not hold the place in my heart that the Hobbit holds.
So, if they are going to turn it into a film (or two or three Wink), and if they are gonna spend the money they are spending . . . well then, I want everything in the film that I love from the novel. And, for me, that is nearly EVERYTHING. And I truly believe that even a three hour movie could not include everything without cuts that would be, well, honestly, unsetting to me.


The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began
Now far ahead the Road has gone
And I must follow, if I can

"Thorin sat up with a start. 'Something is not right,' he muttered to himself as he stood up and
looked towards the mirror . . . . . . . . . 'Durin's bones', he gasped, 'what's happened to my beard?'"


sharpened_graphite
Rivendell

Sep 3 2012, 7:26pm


Views: 885
Actually, he did!

Tolkien started writing a sequel to "The Lord of the Rings" entitled "The New Shadow", a story that happens in Gondor some hundred years after Sauron's defeat and deals with an uprising of a Sauronic cult among Gondor's population. He didn't actually go on to finish it, but it was supposed to be exactly that, a crime-thriller in an urban environment. You can read the opening chapters in the twelfth volume of The History of Middle-Earth ("The Peoples of Middle Earth").


Buchanicus
Lorien


Sep 3 2012, 7:37pm


Views: 850
Totally.


In Reply To
It's not its length that makes it three movies, it's its structure.


TORn member formally known as ryan1976.

(This post was edited by Buchanicus on Sep 3 2012, 7:38pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 3 2012, 7:40pm


Views: 841
A target of convenience

The blogger has given us a snapshot of what is wrong in the industry of late, but personified it; many of the criticisms belong to more than just PJ (and I'm not sure PJ owns many of them himself). The author's worst crime is using the Hobbit's popularity to make (what should have been) some general comments that likely would have been missed.

The comment about Tolkien in particular, is as confusing as it is unfounded.

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 3 2012, 7:44pm


Views: 829
Haha

Well I'm not quite sure I think of it in that light! But perhaps I should have gone for mummy porn just to be sure.

LR


Noria
Gondor

Sep 3 2012, 7:46pm


Views: 877
Waste of time

If this piece had been published after the three movies had been released, or even after AUJ was out, it might be worth reading and considering. For all we know this guy is right, though I really doubt it. But at this point in time the article is just malicious speculation based on nothing and I just wasted a couple of minutes if my life reading it.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 3 2012, 8:01pm


Views: 865
JWPlatt

Everyone else here is talking about an article. You are talking about everyone else. Discuss issues instead of personalities, please. Read the article and comment on it, instead of making judgments and assumptions about people based on their response to something you haven't even read.

If you have not read the recent Admin Announcement, please do.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


geordie
Tol Eressea

Sep 3 2012, 8:05pm


Views: 887
I heard 'The New Shadow' -

- read by Christopher Tolkien at the Sheldonian Theatre in Oxford in August 1992 during the Tolkien Centenary Conference. I remember the complete silence of the audience, and my _trying to remember it all_.

Christopher reads very well.
.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Sep 3 2012, 8:13pm


Views: 793
How exciting!

That must have been quite an experience Smile

"...and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower."


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 3 2012, 8:13pm


Views: 802
Pure speculation

and personal opinion, based on nothing in particular. He even admits a couple of times along the way that he might like the end result. In fact, it reads very much like many fan rants being posted all over the net. "NNNNOOOOOOO!!!!! IT'S RUINED!!!!!!!......But I might like it after all."

I guess we will all just have to wait and see. Laugh


Quote
I'm not sure I agree this will be a total bust: I generally like my blockbusters slow and introspective, so this change may work for me as a viewer.


Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Patty
Immortal


Sep 3 2012, 8:21pm


Views: 793
Perfect post./

 

Permanent address: Into the West






Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Sep 3 2012, 8:29pm


Views: 954
Though I don't agree with the author's general point

The article is a lot less harsh than is being communicated here. Here is just one example:

Quote

I'm not sure I agree this will be a total bust: I generally like my blockbusters slow and introspective, so this change may work for me as a viewer.


This is, in fact, one of the reasons I am looking forward to a three-film series.


(This post was edited by Shelob'sAppetite on Sep 3 2012, 8:31pm)


Escapist
Gondor

Sep 3 2012, 8:46pm


Views: 791
I'm glad to hear that it wasn't all as negative sounding as the excerpt in the original post.

But, when deciding to read an entire article, if given an excerpt like what was selected, my usual reaction would be one of disinterest.
It is a little bit like deciding whether or not to read a journal article based on the abstract.
And it wasn't just one single comment out of context either, it was several sentences of a sort that I don't generally take time to read.

But we shall see if I change my mind - I just don't like that kind of negativity - it is on a different level than simple disinterest, those comments from the article came off as pretty sharply negative ... even a little cruel! Among the sentences presented, there was one detail about the artistic material and decisions and a boatload of really loaded personal attacks - not even constructive criticism or concern - just personal character statements. No more please, I have already had enough, thank you.

I stand by my statement of disinterest ... I try to keep that stuff to a minimum in life - and where it becomes necessary - I latch onto the life-preserver called "just the facts ma'am" rather than scathing and provocative stuff that is more about a person's reaction to another person than anything that person actually ever did or said to anyone. I have such a low interest in such things ...


Istaris'staffs
Rivendell


Sep 3 2012, 9:44pm


Views: 722
His argument doesn't make sense to me.

He's connecting oddly the fact that Jackson hasn't directed in a while to...The Hobbit being a failure? I don't get it. Plus I don't see how adapting a prequel of the same franchise you built makes you non creative.


Morthoron
Gondor


Sep 3 2012, 9:57pm


Views: 924
I don't wish to hear that which may be disagreeable, particularly if it's right...

The author brings up several valid points. The concerns that Jackson may be milking the franchise and using the appendix to the Lord of the Rings as a sandbox for 3-D saturated epic overkill are ones shared by other Tolkien fans, including myself.

To be honest, one film may require cuts to the original story that many folks may dearly miss. Two films would surely encompass the whole original plot in grand style; however, given Jackson's track record, one should suspect that two films would find PJ diddling about with absurd plot twists as found in the 3 LotR movies.

But three films? I find myself paraphrasing the awkward and whiny quote by Elrond in FotR that things are being stretched a bit too th-i-i-i-i-n-n-n. A simple, linear story is being elongated and pulled out of shape in order to add baggage that may render the main plot insubstantial. Rather than seeing The Hobbit, we may get the "The No-bbit: An Unexpected Journey into Subplot Hell".

I don't agree with everything the author says. His comment that Tolkien "seems to have created the idealised past of Middle Earth in order to escape a confusing present", is incredibly misinformed and downright silly.

And I don't believe that "Jackson is running entirely on empty, pushing this side project to ridiculous extremes because he has nothing else to offer". But I do agree that Jackson's other efforts since making his award-winning LotR films have been sub-par (I cringe at seeing Jack Black in King Kong, The Lovely Bones was passably interesting with some nice effects and suspense, and I didn't care for the look of Tin-Tin at all).

And the overarching point of the piece, that Hollywood is sequalizing books to cinematic death in order to take the pennies off the eyes of the dead, is valid as well.

It may not be because the critic is negative and sees the glass as half full; on the contrary, the concern may be that too much is poured into the glass and it spills all over your carpet.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



dalecooper
Rivendell

Sep 3 2012, 10:10pm


Views: 850
Somewhere between 1 film/2 hours and 3 films/x hours is what I was hoping for.

Yes, Rankin/Bass did it in 77 minutes with technically just a few major deletions, but if you revisit the movie now (I just did recently to refresh my memory, after the 3 films announcement gave me a major case of sadface) there's a lot of insane compression. Events that should take 15-20 minutes or more are often compressed to, literally, 2 minutes. The slow, funny introduction of all the dwarves and Gandalf that unfolds over several pages in the book is handled in just a couple minutes in RB's version: Gandalf shows up and announces himself with a few sentences, then all the dwarves walk out from behind trees and bushes simultaneously, and seconds later they're chipping glasses and cracking plates. The Battle of Five Armies is abbreviated on the page anyway, far more so than it will be in the new movies, but in RB's take it's the mega Cliff's Notes edition - you could hardly believe that five whole armies could even get in and out of a battle quite that quickly. Wink

Beyond all of that, we know the entire Dol Guldur sub-plot will take up quite a lot of screen time. Your mileage may vary on whether that's a good thing, but I resigned myself to the addition long ago; what it means, in any event, is that it's not JUST the text of "The Hobbit" that is going to occupy all three of these movies.

I still think three seems like a lot and wonder if it couldn't have been done better and more succinctly in two. Don't suppose I'll know until I see them. But I'm tentatively non-pessimistic about it now, and no longer think Rankin and Bass's 77 minutes is much of a standard at all, considering how choppy and rushed their take was. I have a lot of affection for that movie, but even with the notable subtractions it should have been two hours long, not less than 1.5.


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 3 2012, 10:24pm


Views: 865
That doesn't appear to be the point of the article at all.

The author raises it as something which has been suggested but states he himself does not believe that:

"I'm also not sure money is the only factor. In fact, I think something much more dispiriting has motivated the decision: creative stagnation."

"While it may be maddening for those who see cold, hard profit as the prime motivation behind The Hobbit, it looks sad rather than venal to me"

I don't think I agree at all that, as you suggest, the overarching point is about Hollywood, or splitting films for profit.

The overarching point is the suggestion that returning to previous creative endeavours, without intervening alternative successes on the same scale, is indicative of creative bankruptcy (and this is evidenced by the extension of the sequels' duration).

I don't find this particularly convincing, especially in anticipation of the actual work, and more generally when one considers all the artists who would be beside Jackson on such a firing line (Tolkien included).

One may as well say Canaletto would have been much better if he'd knocked the boats on the head after his first couple of pictures.

LR


Morthoron
Gondor


Sep 3 2012, 10:42pm


Views: 860
You skipped an entire germane paragraph...

Here:


Quote
The critique is pretty simple – Jackson and his team are stretching a simple story beyond reasonable limits to make more money from ticket sales. Harry Potter was the first franchise to split books, turning the Deathly Hallows into two separate movies. Although there was some creative rationale for the split – Deathly Hallows was a long book, and it meant we got two tonally distinct movies – it's also true Warner Bros probably increased its grosses by many hundreds of millions in the process. Other franchises, including Twilight and The Hunger Games, have since followed suit. Jackson, though, seems to be taking this idea to extremes, and many fans are up in arms at what they see as a blatant cash grab.



Saying that the author mitigates this damning statement by adding ""I'm also not sure money is the only factor", does not minimize the accusation. He includes "creative stagnation" as the crown atop the original criticism, and then expands on it. But I see the gist of your argument, yet he's really using the "fans" commentary to bolster his own. Let's just say the points are coeval in their evil. Wink

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



(This post was edited by Morthoron on Sep 3 2012, 10:44pm)


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 3 2012, 10:49pm


Views: 823
That's not his critique

That's his summary of the critique he perceives others have ( those posting on the internet referenced immediately before the paragraph you quote and the fans referenced at the end of it).

His own is quite different in primary nature as the entire article makes clear.

LR


Escapist
Gondor


Sep 3 2012, 11:02pm


Views: 863
So how long is reasonable for The Hobbit?

Your observations match my memory of the cartoon version.

Not even considering the addition of appendix material and the inclusion of parts of the original story that cut when making the cartoon,
if scenes that could have easily taken 5 to 15 (let's say 10 for simplicity) took only 2 minutes of screen time (at the cost of characterization, detailed description, and dialogue) then it seems logical for a full detailed movie to take five times as long correspondingly (roughly speaking - as an estimate of just what might be reasonable).

I get about 6 to 7 hours of film from that. This could be 2 really long films (or 3 reasonable length films) without any appendices. But parts of the full story of The Hobbit are found in the appendices and referred to later in LOTR so now there are easily another one or two hours and 2 films just isn't enough. That's without even going outside the events that happen with only the main characters in The Hobbit. If that gets extended into events involving main characters after The Hobbit or before, then I could even see 4 or 5 movies (dodges popcorn).

I guess that these debates have already taken place - I just thought this comment (scenes in the cartoon that would have taken around 10 minutes to show, getting rushed through in only 2 minutes or so) was just one more way to look at it.

And quite honestly, I just don't see what is so wrong even if the film makers were considering the benefit of making more money! Yeah ... that's what they do! I'll give them more of my money if they have more cool stuff to show me. Wink Is there something wrong with making honest money by creating products that people want and are willing to pay for? Call me a dirty capitalist, but to me this is totally fine.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 3 2012, 11:09pm


Views: 834
How Long

If it's an excellent set of films, whatever it turns out to be is reasonable of course.

If it's bad, bad, bad all the critics will say "I told you so," but hardcore fans will love everything they get anyway, and more in the extended editions.

The measure can only be done in retrospect, perhaps even if you're Peter Jackson.


Demosthenes
Sr. Staff


Sep 4 2012, 12:13am


Views: 802
why three? differing motivations from differing camps

I've been saying this for a while:

1) Warner Bros wants to make money. Art, for them, is a secondary consideration. More films, more money.

(that's the easy bit)

2) I think Jackson just likes working with his peeps. So he saw half a chance to stretch things a bit more and took it.

(this is an inference based on how tightly knit Jackson's crews are and have always been.)

Whether the decision will turn out for better, or for worse, is still up for grabs.

Creative vacuum is an interesting argument, but I don't really buy it. Jackson would achieve the same sort of kudos from two films. The leap with three isn't that much greater. Diminishing returns and all that.

TheOneRing.net Senior Staff
IRC Admin and Hall of Fire moderator


Bound
Rohan


Sep 4 2012, 8:34am


Views: 751
Controversial agreement...

While some here seem to be bashing this journalist for suggesting something they don't agree with you have to accept that this is an opinon post. the journalist is paid to voice his view on things. He's not doing a critical essay on Peter Jacksons career...

Anyways I'm just responding do say that I think the author actually hits close to bone. I agree with most of what he wrote. Peters movies post Lord Of the Rings have been pretty much all over the place. While Kong was enjoyable in parts, the movie was 40 too long with some awful characters thrown in on top. And The Lovely Bones.. Well nothing was good about that movie in my opinion bar maybe Saoirse Ronan.

I was unsure when Peter took over the hobbit but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. But with the splitting of the movies into 3... I think I've lost all faith this man is the movie maker he used to be.

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 4 2012, 9:45am


Views: 725
Not really the point

It's not the conclusion that's people are disagreeing with, it's the reasons for reaching that conclusion, which are ignorant and prejudiced.

Firstly, the journalist is starting from the assumption that fantasy, as a genre, is of lesser artistic merit than other genres.

Secondly, they are starting from the assumption that there is not sufficient source material to make three movies.

Whether or not PJ will actually produce three good movies is a whole different question, which can only be answered after the films are released.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


macfalk
Valinor


Sep 4 2012, 12:10pm


Views: 665
Fully agreed with Silverlode

People who discuss whether this is a "PJ fansite" or not are missing the point - the topic is the article, nothing else.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Elenorflower
Gondor

Sep 4 2012, 12:22pm


Views: 698
creative stagnation?

creative stagnation? Thats the most ridiculous charge I have heard yet. If anything PJ suffers from the opposite, he wants to do too much, has too many ideas and wants to stuff em all in, hence 3 films. He has huge creative teams supporting him and this alone would put a fire in his belly for more. the presence of Lee/Howe/Weta/Shore and hundreds of super creative costumers/ actors et al must be a siren song too hard to ignore. Who wouldnt want to continue making movie magic? Artists get swept up into their imaginations and the last thing on their minds are putting restraints on the creative juices once they flow. Its easy for desk ridden journos to critisize, its their job, but this chap hasnt even seen the film yet, what has he got a palantir?


dave_lf
Gondor

Sep 4 2012, 12:39pm


Views: 642
There will probably be a lot of that sort of thing this time around

warranted or no. Last time Jackson and Weta were outsiders with fresh ideas; now they're establishment. The films will have to be that much better to overcome the fact that the critical deck is stacked against them.


(This post was edited by dave_lf on Sep 4 2012, 12:40pm)


Bound
Rohan


Sep 4 2012, 12:45pm


Views: 627
...

I don't agree that the Journalist suggested that Fantasy is genre of lesser artistic merit - In this line "surely he could choose more creatively ambitious projects than this" - I think the author is suggesting that Peter has done Fantasy before and that he might be better off with an new challenge.

I think it's fair to suggest that there isn’t enough material to warrant 3 movies. I've read the books, I know what he says he's getting extra material from. It seems to me that it is a stretch. I'm not even against him creating new characters/scenes that expand story lines but when it boils down to the fact that maybe - just maybe - Peter's lost track of himself and he can longer tell a focused story.

No one is suggesting the movies will be bad... we can't judge that until we see them but it does give people enough to worry ...

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 4 2012, 1:21pm


Views: 642
I agree to an extent Bound

though as others have suggested (including the blogger) it is difficult to say from this side of the premiere. And, as we know, this is precisely the sort of criticism Sir Peter was trying to avoid back in 2008, so he said.

However I think the article is more a reaction to the industry in general with PJ cast as unfortunate victim because The Hobbit is an attention grabber just now. A cursory glance at the industry reveals many directors "returning to their roots" -- even storied directors such as Scott and Cronenberg aren't immune to such criticism. There seems a reluctance to risk it all on original titles; instead we are seeing more and more reboots, re-releases of old favourites in 3D (so what?), and remakes of films that didn't need to be remade because the originals were already successful (for instance a remake of Stephan King's "It" was just announced). And because mainstream genres are so firmly established, even supposedly original titles turn out bland and predictable. Then there's the endless sequels and prequels, some that merely borrow a successful name but have nothing to do with the titular character (Bourne Legacy for instance). So even though PJ has followed a similar path, as the author lays out quite well, it is entirely unfair to single him out.

For my part, I'm more inclined to blame the studios and distribution side of the industry... there are original titles out there but only in limited release, if they are released for screen at all. You can blame neither audiences nor film makers if the system refuses to put original titles on big screens.

By the way, welcome back Bound, and congratulazioni!

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


Bound
Rohan


Sep 4 2012, 1:38pm


Views: 634
Totally agree

... Nothing is worst than the constant stream of remakes from Hollywood. It makes it feel like it is completely bereft of original ideas.

I'll also concede that Jackson and The Hobbit are easy prey for these type of articles, I remember the hunger games movie split got a fair bit of abuse too.

Ps...

Thanks for the congrats... And welcome backs. I kept an eye in on occasion but haven't been active in an age ;-)

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


morgenstern
The Shire


Sep 4 2012, 2:54pm


Views: 576
How long will these films run?

If they run in the same vein as their predecessors (the LotR films, orig. release length), at an average run time of 3hrs 6min, then somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 to 3 hrs per Hobbit film is likely, therefore 7.5 to 9 hours to tell both the original story and whatever is included from the appendices which will serve as the perceived necessary bridge between the two film groups.

If this is the case, then the original story of 'The Hobbit' may be in there somewhere, but with everything that is being added in, I'm not able to imagine how it's not going to be overshadowed by the "greater tale" that is being threaded into this adaptation.


RosieLass
Valinor


Sep 4 2012, 3:07pm


Views: 651
The gripes that this is only "speculation" are pointless.

The positive reviews have no more facts than the negative ones do. We are ALL speculating.

Either criticize everyone for groundless speculation, or don't bring it up.

That being said, I would disagree that the 3-movie format is either a money-grab or stagnation on Peter Jackson's part.

I believe he is simply like a kid in a candy shop and he's out of control. His enthusiasm has overcome his good sense, and he doesn't know when to stop.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


RosieLass
Valinor


Sep 4 2012, 3:10pm


Views: 582
And if you aren't going to read the whole article...

...it would probably be best if you didn't comment.

The OP does not convey what the critique is really about, not by a long shot.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Spaldron
Rivendell


Sep 4 2012, 3:36pm


Views: 544
A bit late.

I like how the main site has nicked my link lol. Laugh

link

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."


Olo Overhill
Registered User

Sep 4 2012, 4:05pm


Views: 569
Agree

I agree with Elenorflower that this is definitely not a case of creative stagnation. Peter Jackson originally wanted to make The Hobbit prior to LOTR. This has been a passion of his for many years and it is not some fall back project that he happened to get. Also why not him and his team. They have shown more passion, talent, and respect for the material than anyone I know. Anyways, just my 2 cents.


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 4 2012, 4:08pm


Views: 560
Not all speculation is groundless

If the basic assumptions of the speculation are valid, then it may or may not be true, but is worth considering.

If basic assumptions are false, as in this article, then any speculation that follows is worthless.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


RosieLass
Valinor


Sep 4 2012, 4:17pm


Views: 543
It's an opinion piece.

It's the writer's opinion that PJ's films since LOTR have been weak, and for that reason, he thinks PJ is stagnating.

The fact that you disagree doesn't make those opinions false.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 4 2012, 4:24pm


Views: 536
Only one false assumption is required to invalidate a thesis

And this person has two.

I agree completely about the quality of PJ's resent work. But that has no baring on the decision to make The Hobbit a trilogy.

It is also contrary to the suggestion that PJ should go and make something else.

Hitchcock had done thrillers. Therefore by making more he was obviously stagnating.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


SteveDJ
Rivendell

Sep 4 2012, 6:30pm


Views: 537
People seem to be forgetting about the LENGTH of the LotR movies...

The third film - RotK - is over 4 hours long (Extended Cut). That's two movies. For the shortest book of the trilogy (ok, yea, it included bits from TTT, like Shelob, but still...)

I can imagine that maybe WB doesn't want 3-hour epic(s) here, so 3 films about 2 hours each, maybe less even?, would still be quite reasonable for The Hobbit - even as a shorter book. (I say maybe less than 2 hours because, perhaps wearing 3D glasses for 2 - 3 hours just isn't feasible...?)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 4 2012, 7:13pm


Views: 656
Misstatement of fact...

From James Russell's article:


Quote
The critique is pretty simple – Jackson and his team are stretching a simple story beyond reasonable limits to make more money from ticket sales. Harry Potter was the first franchise to split books, turning the Deathly Hallows into two separate movies. Although there was some creative rationale for the split – Deathly Hallows was a long book, and it meant we got two tonally distinct movies – it's also true Warner Bros probably increased its grosses by many hundreds of millions in the process. Other franchises, including Twilight and The Hunger Games, have since followed suit. Jackson, though, seems to be taking this idea to extremes, and many fans are up in arms at what they see as a blatant cash grab.

The Harry Potter series was definitely not the first to split a single book into more than one film. Director Richard Lester did this in 1974 with Alexander Dumas' The Three Musketeers (since the book is followed by a sequel, The Man in the Iron Mask, I suppose it is fair to call it a franchise). And I'm not even sure that Lester was the first one to do this.

'Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.' - Gandalf the White


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 4 2012, 7:32pm


Views: 671
Pssst, Elenorflower...

You have posted your message in reply to macfalk, which I don't think was intended. (Click on the 'In reply to' link on your post to see what I mean.)

When posting, click on the 'Reply to This Post' link of the message you want to reply to, not the link on the last message in the discussion thread.

Feel free to send me a private message (click on my nick and go from there) if you have any questions.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Fardragon
Rohan

Sep 4 2012, 7:54pm


Views: 638
actually

Dumas wrote a whole series of musketeer novels.

But this isn't really comparable. People like Middle Earth. They want to see more movies about Middle Earth. The problem is, Tolkien only published one more novel (in his lifetime) about Middle Earth. However, he did write lots of plot outlines and story fragments. What is being made is a prequel trilogy to LotOR, not a straight adaptation of one novel.

A Far Dragon is the best kind...


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 4 2012, 8:50pm


Views: 683
3 could be a bonus, or a convuluting distraction. It remains to be seen.

Something is definitely lost in expanding The Hobbit this much, but something may also be gained. But as is said in The Hobbit. . . we will just have to wait and see if we gain anything.

I don't think stagnation or money are the issue for the creative team. I think hubris and excessive pleasure with their own addenda, fan-fiction-like though much of it may be, are the most likely causes of expansion.

In Reply To
Sure, it's not morally acceptable, but I'm just glad it's being made into a film. 1 film is great, 3 is a bonus.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 4 2012, 8:58pm


Views: 637
I excepedt long ago that we are no longer just getting The Hobbit

If we were just getting The Hobbit (as in the book) then 3 films would be an awful stretch. Since we're no longer getting just The Hobbit, more films seems most reasonable. Smile


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 4 2012, 9:00pm


Views: 636
Agreed. And I wouldn't even call the absence of the Wood Elves feast a major

deletion. Larger things than that were left out of the live action Lord of The Rings movies.

My original thoughts about the originally planned One Film Hobbit were, "wow. Rankin Bass got most of the story in with a 79 minute film. I can't wait to see the full and proper treatment it will get in a 190 to 225 minute (Three hour plus) movie! They will be able to get in all of the book, AND be able to devout close to an hour." Two movies. . . I hated the notion of the space of wait between, but I could still see how it would work well. At hearing three, my initial exclamation changed to, "Just what the hell type bunk are they going be pulling out of their bums to supply this much filler?"

In Reply To

In Reply To
Though, it would still be interesting to see what a 1 film adaptation of The Hobbit would be like.



The animated Hobbit manages to tell most of the story in 77 minuites with three major deletions: 1) the character of Beorn; 2) the Wood-elves' feast in Mirkwood; and 3) the subplot with the Arkenstone. As long as you are willing to similarly compress the events of the book, there is no reason why the entire story couldn't be adapted in 2 hours or so.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 4 2012, 9:15pm


Views: 616
Well there still seems

To be an underlying assumption that a text of length x is best adapted into a screentime of y. I don't see any real evidence of this.

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 4 2012, 9:18pm


Views: 585
I'm not sure I suggested that? /

 


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Sep 4 2012, 9:26pm


Views: 588
It seems that if someone is saying

That screen time A is a stretch (based only on the duration and not the content) then A must be perceived to be greater than the correct time or range of times B for the adaptation of the text. So there has to be an implicit correct timing, for there to be a stretch, I think?

And I dont think B can be judged in the absence of content.

I'm not suggesting this solely in response to your post by the way!

LR


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 4 2012, 9:27pm


Views: 588
Which is exactly what some people will understandably object to.

I like Dol Guldur and The Council of The Wise being included if it is done properly, and without TOO much invented speculative ficiton beyond what is needed to make the sub-plot work.

But The Hobbit is the name of the film, and it is the work they are adapting. It is thus, the work most people will expect to see. It would be entirely inappropriate and a damaging deviation, for example, if Jackson were to use the Appendicies to force Feanor and The Valar and the wars against Melkor into The Hobbit (and, believe it or no, there is just enough information on those beings and subjects in the appendecies to make for a fan fictionalized account much of what is in The Silmarillion without ever actually having to quote anything directly from that forbidden tome). Indeed, such diversion would cause it to no longer be The Hobbit.

It is not a problem that the only other text they have rights to is The Hobbit, if the film they intend to make is The Hobbit. It is only a problem if one wants to cram a lot of material that has very little to do with The Hobbit into a film that is supposedly based on that novel.

In Reply To
Dumas wrote a whole series of musketeer novels.

But this isn't really comparable. People like Middle Earth. They want to see more movies about Middle Earth. The problem is, Tolkien only published one more novel (in his lifetime) about Middle Earth. However, he did write lots of plot outlines and story fragments. What is being made is a prequel trilogy to LotOR, not a straight adaptation of one novel.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 4 2012, 10:13pm


Views: 599
(Literary) Devices

I hope Dol Guldur is longish; more than a simpler subplot, but not equal to The Hobbit - 1/3 seems a perfect ratio for the film count. I would wish them well to use the Appendices to enter the area of the Silmarillion as far as the Appendices can possibly carry them. I wish this because I dislike the reluctance, nay obstinance, of the Tolkien Estate about allowing film rights for all the materials to legitimate productions. If they want it really done right instead of weighted toward fan, or "speculative," fiction, that's what they'd do. "What can we do to help you do it right" is a much more progressive attitude than their perceived obstinance.

But about cramming "material that has very little to do with The Hobbit," I would posit that the Dol Guldur thread can or might be used to clear obstacles or threats from Bilbo and the Dwarves' path that, were there not interventions by The Council, would otherwise have been there. The company would not have to know these things happened and the story from Bilbo's point of view does not have to be altered, leaving The Hobbit as-is while more tightly integrating the story of The White Council.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Sep 4 2012, 10:16pm)


Snaga
Lorien


Sep 4 2012, 10:38pm


Views: 585
Darn, I came late to this thread and everbody has just about said it all

and pointed out the obvious, that anybody can create a 'sock puppet' identity as a web journalist and write whatever they want.

"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

-Faramir


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 4 2012, 11:24pm


Views: 571
I would disagree about their reluctance. Doubtless, by now, they know the fickle ways of Djinn

once out of the bottle and released from bond of wish commands (very specific wishes, mind), there is no telling what they might get up to.

And there is no garauntee that full rights to use The Silmarilion, would result in any manner of faithful translation. With full rights to LOTR, there were still a number of deviations. It might not do Christopher well to hear rumour of a scene in which the early promise of Galadriel's awesomness was displayed when she came to the rescue of her uncle Feanor, and singlehandedly defeated six Balrogs. Crazy lol

In Reply To
I hope Dol Guldur is longish; more than a simpler subplot, but not equal to The Hobbit - 1/3 seems a perfect ratio for the film count. I would wish them well to use the Appendices to enter the area of the Silmarillion as far as the Appendices can possibly carry them. I wish this because I dislike the reluctance, nay obstinance, of the Tolkien Estate about allowing film rights for all the materials to legitimate productions. If they want it really done right instead of weighted toward fan, or "speculative," fiction, that's what they'd do. "What can we do to help you do it right" is a much more progressive attitude than their perceived obstinance.

But about cramming "material that has very little to do with The Hobbit," I would posit that the Dol Guldur thread can or might be used to clear obstacles or threats from Bilbo and the Dwarves' path that, were there not interventions by The Council, would otherwise have been there. The company would not have to know these things happened and the story from Bilbo's point of view does not have to be altered, leaving The Hobbit as-is while more tightly integrating the story of The White Council.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Sunflower
Valinor

Sep 5 2012, 1:14am


Views: 615
But this (prospective backlash)

is an article that seeks to "set the tone" and I am sure that the writer puts in print what many members of the media, the industry, and (yes) the Academy must be feeling. It's the opening shot, and I disagree that this article must not be taken seriously. it should be taken seriously indeed. Not just for what it says, but b/c he isn't content to back up his own arguments; he says "the fans are upset" and offers links or points to a Facebook page so readers can see for themselves. I'm sure the author has dubiously cherry-picked selected negative fan reaction to the news of the past months. This is serious. Ask yourself: if the media had not glowingly endorsed the films wth the sobriquet "it even won over die-hard Tolkien book fans" (LOTR), if there had been a fan backlash against LOTR, wouldn't that have muddied the critical acclaim and influenced thinking of the memebers of AMPAS?

This is the same type of article that began months before The Phantom Menace and esp Titanic. With TPM, the results were mixed while Titanic of course confounded all odds. We should expect to see aLOTmore of this the closer we get to Dec, and it means that Peter Jackson had better darn well deliver. And by "deliver", there are some hard hearts out there: this had better be not just as good as LOTR....the industry will now expect something better. The ods are already high, and Jackson seeming to set himself up as another George Lucas isn't doing him any critical favors.

Not that I think he is. But the article riases a valid point that he isn't the same scrappy PJ any more; he's now a seasoned mogul who has a small entourage who follows him around on the shoot and, as we have seen in the vlogs, puts the cup of coffee into his hand. (This is the exact point when Alec Guinness correctly opined that GL's best days were perhaps behind him....when he saw him thus on the set of ROTJ.) I do agree that TH was a lucky break for him; but after this he will have to do his Schindler's List to follow this Jurassic Park. I'd love to see him go back to his HC roots and be known for more than DeMillian epics. After all, even Spielberg went inward...

Peter jackson initially turned down TH b/c he didn't want to have to face the pressure of having to creatively top himself, before the 48fps and trilogy, he was already under pressure. Now, he is facing a situation far worse than even he dreaded--and he must be either just as the article says, OR that much of a genius. and confident that he can withstand all sotrms. ..that he can avoid the Mogul Curse that has claimed so many great directors creatively.

This worrying aspect--that just as George Lucas before him, Peter Jackson might become an accidental lightening rod for debate and criticism about all that is wrong with the industry, regardless of how TH turns out--is not something to be brushed aside as specious or of the moment. It may well become all the more potent within circles of the industry IF TH is commerically successful and has a modicum of critical success. After all, we now live in the Twitter Age, when praise so inevitalby turns to backlash. It seems that Th is already being set up to sink further if it falls out of the gate (and only perfection can come from this new gate) OR if it is successful, they'll drag it down.

B/c everyone is jealous of someone who is TOO good or successful. How can Peter Jackson become more than the enabler of the Bloated Blockbuster Franchise? (as they'd see it, not me.) Will Peter Biskind write another sequel to "Easy Riders, Raging Bulls" and his follow-up critique of 90's Indie CInema with a book that has the likes of Cameron and Jackson symbolizing all that is bad in Tinseltown?

Having TABA open in Summer doesn;t help. "Summer blockbuster, NOT Oscar film." For the first time, I wish that the order were reversed--6 months between films 1 and 2, not 2 and 3! This is what drives me mad--that the fans too won't evn know if they've been validated (or not) for a whole year after!


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Sep 5 2012, 1:20am)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Sep 5 2012, 1:18am


Views: 557
Good thing

I didn't read the article after all, especially hearing they trashed Tintin just because the journalist didn't like mo-cap. I really liked Tintin, and I thought it was a good movie. I also have an open-mind about the Hobbit, PJ gets too carried away to be "running on empty."


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Sep 5 2012, 1:28am


Views: 544
Are you serious?

There was actually going to be a sequel to The Lord of the Rings? And involved a Sauronic cult? That is interesting.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Sep 5 2012, 1:40am


Views: 568
And? And?

Kind of dropped off there at the end...Angelic

The following is far from polished, please bare with me:

Although we don't know how this thing is going to go over -- the dust hasn't been whipped up yet, let alone settled -- I see what you are getting at. Since Cinema Con I've been thinking that some pundits/critics/whatever might like to get some negative viewpoints out there so they could then claim prophet status should the thing tank; Its success does not seem the foregone conclusion it once did, though I don't know why.

However, you are going one step further and suggesting that negative reviews will become the norm for this thing regardless of its success. There is a part of me that wants to agree with you... I think some of the more notable reversals of fortune (fortune=respect here rather than wealth) were engineered by media manipulating the mushy middle. It may be jealousy as you say, or a form of personality management media empires engage in. Or perhaps it is people wanting to be ahead of the curve should the fans turn on him as they have done on so many other sure things, it girls and boys, and so on.

My more practical side expects that if this is evidence of a mounting backlash, it might be around PJ trying to introduce a new format when the last one hasn't really caught on; but also something like a late announcement of an additional summer block buster must have screwed-up at least some (industry) people's plans.

The Tolkien comment leads me to think that at least some people aren't looking forward to another 3-5 year stretch where fantasy geeks rule popular culture, as we did during the LOTR years.

In any event, I agree that as much as this critique unfairly singles out Sir Peter, it may also be a taste of of what's in store.

eta: ah I see you edited the "and" out, now my opening makes no sense heh...

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Sep 5 2012, 1:50am)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 5 2012, 2:51am


Views: 564
Backlash

I think the real growing backlash will not be about blockbusters (I like those), but will be about the lack of new, creative films that have been substituted with multiple rehashes, reboots, remakes and any other word Hollywood chooses to describe the same thing - finally, I say with impatient glee. I do expect 3D to get the same backlash, as it always has. Every. Single. Decade. Or so. We still have to wear glasses? I also just noted a Chris Pine interview explaining that Star Trek 2 will not be "like the original but darker. We’re not making Batman." Relief! Darker, flawed and more humanized is what I hope is the next backlash against cliche. Bring back the heroes. Darker, flawed, and humanized is all Emperor's Clothes of someone who once said that was a good thing and pretentious writers and actors believed him.

I digress, but neither The Lord of the Rings nor The Hobbit are remakes, avoiding that backlash, but not the 3D, but we will have choice - and they probably will not be remade for a very long time. 48 FPS is the real unknown, but still there's choice. A smart audience, if they remember the premature criticisms, will think of the critics as rather silly (or prescient) in retrospect. I expect the former to prevail and the possible backlash will be immediately forgotten with the typical mass amnesia as we move on to the next shiney.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Sep 5 2012, 2:58am)


RosieLass
Valinor


Sep 5 2012, 4:34am


Views: 519
This article doesn't even mention Tintin. //

 

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Sunflower
Valinor

Sep 5 2012, 10:03am


Views: 502
LOL....

Note to self: do not write posts in wee hrs when you're too wired to be tired, and too tired to be wired (you know the feeling I'm sure.)
Yep, another long, rambling essay--I'd drive a creative writing teacher mad. (But then, so would Tolkien have.) But then, that's purely intentional. I try to cultivate my creative wackiness.

I'm surprised nobody's done a spoof of my posts yet.CoolBlushTongue

Didn't see what you were talking about there either at the end, Sir Dennis, but then I edited it....:)

Yr point about the writer possibly being resentful of another period when "The geeks rule the world" esp Tolkien geeks, never thought of that. I can think of a prominent film site or two whose members clearly are dreading TH. And maybe this is in part what may fuel a backlash if there is one: at a time when the creative well has run long dry and the clock is clearly ready for a pendulum swing to the return of some smaller, quirkier, origional cinema programming, here comes this 800-pound gorilla smashing the china in the teashop. In the past, we had Lucas and Spielberg; now, it's Cameron and Jackson. And sorry to say, TH is NOT origional programming....it's yet another YA adapatation (if a critic wants to be really snarky about it.)

As for backlash: I ws there, I remember following the pre-release online drama of both TPM (on then-brand new sites Jedinet.com and theForce.net) and Titanic (on ComingSoon.net, and later AICN.) If it weren't for Harry Knowles's origional screening reports, Titanic might have died in the water...(remember how it didnt take off until 2 weeks after release.) of course all has changed sinc then. Today we have the Twitter backlash (see current item: "Beasts of the Southern Wild" , a *fantastic* indie film with a little child actress who has been getting a lot of buzz as a Oscar contender, a la Anna Paquin. Or she was, until about 2 wks after the film came out about 2 months ago..., to glowing reviews..now those same critics are backpedalng and trashing it....

We shall see. I hope we are in for another "Titanic" style phenom. But it will be tougher. Cameron hadn't built up a resovoir of resentment among critics before his film...just people enjoying the macabre spectacle of the production saga and munching the popcorn.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Sep 5 2012, 10:04am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Sep 5 2012, 10:16am


Views: 489
Heroes

It will be much more difficult for America to drop the need for "dark, flawed" heroes when she is so currently muddled and confused about her own direction, and even reson d'etre while she is held in the strong jaws of the rapacious 1%. Post-9/11 and Gitmo America will never again be able to create, much less believably return to, say, Superman or Mickey Mouse. (Captian Jack was a bit of a corporate miracle.) How can we convincingly re-invent or reimagine new heroes to look up to, when torture and warrantless spying are Constitutional? King of hard, there, to preach lofty ideals through a myhtic creation, when you're betraying your own ideals.--with the peoples' silent consent (bit of a harsh statement there, but it has to be said.)

I just finished reading a very interesting book over the summer about the history of Comic-Con. It brings up (a little) this very oint, that most of the totular American cult heroes and figures were born in a much more inocent age when American economy was expanding and even in the light of some setbacks, the nation was expanding and people in general had...well, Estel. for lack of a more powerful word. Now that is all in doubt.
The book suggested that in future, Comic-Con might not be THE global pop-culture leader, but merely one of several globally recognised Cons. And that the next Superman or Batman or cartoon icon that we look up to with shining eyes, might come from, say, India....or Brazil. Some other nation giong through its period of expanding middle class and hope for the future.

Personally, I don't have much hope in future of the continued expansion of Industrial Civ...not in a world of exploding population growth against a backdrop of rapid rescource depletin, more expensive food and emergy,and accelerating climate change...so they should enjoy the party in its last hours.

Sorry to get OT there. But I hope you get the gneral gist of what I mean.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Sep 5 2012, 10:20am)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Sep 5 2012, 7:51pm


Views: 492
I was referring to Carne's post

He mentioned they dissed Tintin, and that much of what the Guardian says is rubbish. Had I not read his post, I would've wasted minutes of my life reading a silly article by a prejudiced journalist, who hasn't even seen The Hobbit yet. I should've been more specific the first time.


Elenorflower
Gondor

Sep 5 2012, 8:41pm


Views: 494
creative team

PJ has probably one of the most creative teams in the buisness behind him, all directors have access to these teams, they all go together to make a whole. I would like to see someone say to WETA and Lee/Howe and Howard Shore and all the top flight costumers,actors, set designers that the project they are working on is creatively stagnated. They would laugh their socks off.