The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The courtesy of our hall is somewhat lessened of late. (Admin Announcement, ALL PLEASE READ)

Forum Admin / Moderator

Aug 28 2012, 7:08pm

Views: 32900
The courtesy of our hall is somewhat lessened of late. (Admin Announcement, ALL PLEASE READ)

Over the last several months, the Admins/Mods have been watching the Hobbit board in growing dismay. TORN has always been a welcoming and friendly place but the Hobbit board has recently become fraught with bickering and petty argument, with general bad feeling increasing at a worrying rate. We have nudged, suggested, commented, snipped threads here and there and waited to see if things would settle out of their own accord. They have not. Now we are getting messages both private and public with complaints and concerns from oldtimers and newbies alike that they are finding the atmosphere unpleasant. Some have even chosen to avoid this section of the forum altogether. This cannot continue.

This is not about opinions or "sides".
This is a Tolkien site, first and foremost. While the site was created to follow the production of Peter Jackson's movies and most of our staff and members are fans of those movies, we welcome ALL opinions and expect everyone, old and new, to be treated respectfully. We have never banned anyone for their opinions regarding the books or movies. We have, however, had to ban quite a number of people for being unable to express themselves with courtesy and respect toward others. Some of these people complained both here and elsewhere that they were being persecuted for their opinions despite extensive and repeated explanations from us that their poor behavior was at fault. Before we begin taking measures to deal with the problems we see on this board, we want to make sure that our expectations are clear.

We expect that everyone here has read our Terms of Service. If you have not, please do so before you post another message on these boards. Pay particular attention to rules 3, 6, and 12 listed there. You will notice that we place a very high value on treating fellow members with courtesy. This is not only expected but required.
However, not everyone seems to know or remember what that looks like in practice, so we thought it might be helpful to be more explicit about what we mean.

This is what good TORNetiquette looks like:

1. Remember that these boards are a community. They are not anyone's personal playground. We frequently find that those we call out for poor behavior try to justify it by citing free speech or personal rights. Your rights stop where others' rights begin. In other words, your right to swing your arms freely ends at the tip of your neighbor's nose. If we start seeing too many bloody noses in your vicinity, we will restrict your swing zone. On all such questions the moderators have the final word.

2. Treat others with respect. Just as you would like others to listen to what you say and respond to your ideas politely, you must also listen to others and be polite in return, even when you disagree. Yes, even if you think their ideas are stupid. Discuss issues, not personalities, and do not attempt to tell others what they do think or how they should think. Blanket phrases like "you people", "you all think", "you don't care if" or "anyone who thinks that...." are dead giveaways of disrespect for the individuals you are addressing. Instead, speak for yourself. "I think", "In my opinion", "____ strikes me this way" are all much better gambits for discussion.

3. Agree to Disagree. Part of respecting others' opinions is not always needing to have the last word. If the same point has been made three times by the same people in the same thread and no one is changing their minds, walk away. In all the history of these boards we have never seen anyone suddenly change their mind at this point in a conversation and there is no gain in continuing to try all the other members' patience with endless repetition. You cannot "win" on a matter of personal opinion and nearly all of our conversations are based on exactly that. If the debate is only between two people and both wish to continue it, take it to Private Message.

4. Do not hijack threads for a personal agenda. Threads here frequently go off topic. When it happens organically, it can be great. When it is because of someone who has a one-track mind and pounces on every possible chance they can find or create to turn a conversation to their own pet topic, it is tiresome.

5. Do not "spam" threads with your opinion. You do not have to reply to everyone in a thread (even if you started it), especially if you have already given your opinion more than once in the same thread and you are essentially repeating yourself to each person in turn. This gives the impression that you are trying to control the flow of the conversation to suit yourself rather than letting it develop naturally.

6. Do not treat TORN like a personal soapbox. We exist by and for the fans, not as a platform to reach people you hope may be lurking. It's rude to the community here to use us merely to make your point to someone else. And it would still be rude even if you knew for certain that they were listening.

7. Do not stalk your opposite. Do not follow people of differing opinion around the board and "correct" everything they say. This is irritating and produces only bad feeling. If you have had more than one conversation on the same topic with the same person, or if you have stated the same opinion more than once in the same thread, they already know what you think. It is not your job to fix them, nor do you need to "balance" them out. Believe me, if you find yourself frequently at odds with the same person the rest of the board has also been reading your conversations and knows what you both think. Good balance on the boards happens when everyone says what they have to say, shares their perspective on their differences and then moves on. If you feel that someone is "following" you around the board and you cannot resolve it with them directly, send a Private Message to one of the Admins/Mods and let us know.

8. Do not try to "compensate" for other peoples' opinions.
You do not have to make a counter argument for every statement you do not agree with. This makes you come across as arrogant and obnoxious because it implies that you do not really think other opinions are valid and you think yours must take precedence. This is especially unacceptable if you are trying to shout others down in the hope that someone in the production will hear you and take your opinion to heart over theirs. See #6.

9. Give the benefit of the doubt. A huge number of arguments and flame wars arise over simple misunderstandings or different usage of words. We have people here from many different countries and cultures within those countries. Do not assume that your reading of a statement or perspective on an issue is the only possible one.
If you did not mean to offend but someone is offended anyway, do not justify yourself and tell them how wrong they are to be upset. Explain what you did mean more clearly. If you are offended by someone else, ask for clarification before assuming they meant to be offensive. They may not be aware of how they sound to you.

10. Apologize early and often. If someone is upset by or offended by something you said, acknowledge that and apologize even if you don't see why it's a big deal. If nothing else, it makes you appear much more likeable and reasonable and it defuses a lot of anger. And maybe you are wrong, in which case you look smarter when you admit it. Half-apologies, where you say "I'm sorry, but you're still wrong" don't count.

11. You cannot control others, only yourself. Don't let yourself be goaded by others' poor behavior to come down to their level and behave badly yourself. Nobody benefits from that.

12. If you're not a Mod, don't try to act like one. By and large, TORN members are very helpful and like to jump in when they see a need. We are very happy about that. But we are not happy when we see people trying to lecture or enforce the rules against others. If you see someone violating the rules, bring it to our attention via Private Message or on the Feedback board and let us deal with it. This goes double for trolls. Do not feed them.

13. Try to preserve a sense of humor. In the midst of so much speculation and with so many differing views on every topic causing friction between members, a sense of humor about oneself and the topic is a wonderful calming agent. We all love these stories, and we are all here because we have found enjoyment in them, by whatever means. Taking things too seriously turns what should be our common ground into a battle zone and defeats the purpose of gathering together as fans. Our differences can broaden our horizons rather than dividing us into little factions, if we lighten up a little and let them.

14. Detachment is the best preservation of sanity. Fandom is supposed to be fun. When it stops being fun, go do something else that is. If you find yourself getting too emotionally involved in debate, take a break and come back when you can be civil. We'll still be here.


"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Aug 29 2012, 3:32am

Views: 11285
Thank you!

This is a wonderful reminder. Although I haven't found the boards to be excessively unpleasant I've had my share of run-ins and disagreements with people. So allow me to be one of the first to re-pledge myself to courtesy! Smile

The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie___

The Shire

Aug 29 2012, 3:47am

Views: 11106
Here Here

In Reply To

9. Give the benefit of the doubt. A huge number of arguments and flame wars arise over simple misunderstandings or different usage of words. We have people here from many different countries and cultures within those countries. Do not assume that your reading of a statement or perspective on an issue is the only possible one.
If you did not mean to offend but someone is offended anyway, do not justify yourself and tell them how wrong they are to be upset. Explain what you did mean more clearly. If you are offended by someone else, ask for clarification before assuming they meant to be offensive. They may not be aware of how they sound to you.

14. Detachment is the best preservation of sanity. Fandom is supposed to be fun. When it stops being fun, go do something else that is. If you find yourself getting too emotionally involved in debate, take a break and come back when you can be civil. We'll still be here.

I very much agree with those two points in particular but all true. I re-pledge my respect for sure!


Aug 29 2012, 4:03am

Views: 11261
Hear hear!



Aug 29 2012, 7:28am

Views: 11092



All artists are prepared to suffer for their work, but why are so few prepared to learn to draw? :BANKSY

"A Cameraman without a camera is just a man." Stephen Press

(This post was edited by cameragod on Aug 29 2012, 7:29am)

The Shire

Aug 29 2012, 7:36am

Views: 11058
pfft it sounded right in my head :P

In Reply To

Tol Eressea

Aug 29 2012, 12:32pm

Views: 10852
That goes for me, too. :-) //



Aug 29 2012, 12:43pm

Views: 10911
And me :-) //



Aug 29 2012, 3:28pm

Views: 11086
Narcissism and navel gazing be darned

I've been on the wrong side of a few things on the list... will a one time blanket apology suffice?

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


Aug 29 2012, 3:38pm

Views: 10948
You're one of the good guys

No one is perfect (least of all me), but you are certainly not a significant part of the problem. At least not in my humble opinion. You are passionate in your opinions, but that is not a bad thing (even when I disagree with you Wink).

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Aug 29 2012, 4:09pm

Views: 10818
Same as Milknut! //


The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

Tol Eressea

Aug 29 2012, 4:34pm

Views: 11253
since this is probably partialy aimed at me

I'll just say it once if I offended anyone I appologize... But as I have said its going to take one heck off alot to change my mind about what PJ is doing to the Hobbit. So dont expect my views to change Wink


Aug 29 2012, 4:36pm

Views: 10880
Thanks for the guidelines.

I am new here, and I must say that most other blog sites I have been involved with are just ... so different ... in their expectations of respect for all members equally ... I hope that I am not accidentally coming across the wrong way - I think those guidelines will be helpful to avoid that.

Show or do not show, there is no tell.


Aug 29 2012, 4:38pm

Views: 10935

As far as I have seen, SirDennis has behaved himself quite admirably! There should be no penalty for passion and intelligence.

If anything, my occasional bouts of strong criticism of the LOTR films occasionally lead me into some uncertain territory, even if I do not realize it.

I should be apologizing far more than you, SirDennis!


Aug 29 2012, 4:46pm

Views: 10950
I don't think expressing opinions is the problem.

Even if they're strong, unpopular opinions, passionately stated.

I think the trouble arises when people try to browbeat others into conforming to their opinions, or who move from discussing the opinions into commentating about the people behind the opinions.

I admit that I, too, sometimes get angry and snappish, and if I've offended anyone, I also apologize.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

Forum Admin / Moderator

Aug 29 2012, 4:50pm

Views: 10972
The intent

is not to change people's opinions, but to change the tone of the conversations we are having with each other. I love the fact that people like you are participants here, who may not like the movies or books as much. If we all agreed, the message boards would be very boring!

It's not having different opinions that is the problem - it's the way ALL opinions (supportive toward the movies/books and not supportive) are (a) expressed and (b) received. We're hoping to remind everyone that respect, patience, an open mind and courtesy is required of all participants.


Aug 29 2012, 4:55pm

Views: 10893
How very kind of both of you

*feeling slightly embarrassed*

One hardly knows how they are perceived by others... yours and Voronwe's reassurance means a great deal to me, not least because of the admiration I have for you both.

I see better days ahead for you in particular SA.Angelic

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)


Aug 29 2012, 5:05pm

Views: 10985
Hi sinister

I hope you don't change your opinion. Why? Because then it wouldn't be yours! Smile

The important thing, from what I have observed, is to not belittle the opinions (or character) of others. You can disagree with them, but it is a different thing entirely to make strong statements about how their opinions are either wrong, misguided, in poor taste, etc.

The only time I get a little agitated is when people take my opinion, sometimes strongly expressed, as a threat to their opinion.

But sometimes that is my fault. If an opinion is expressed strongly, and without prefaces and caveats to soften it, that opinion can sometimes be interpreted as an attack on the opinions of those who hold a very different one.

Personally, I have difficulty understanding how personal opinions on matters of film and art can be threatening to people. So I have been working at making sure to include "IMOs," and "I may be in the minority" and other such qualifiers, which really help in fostering a cordial dialogue.

Emoticons help too, if you can be bothered to use them! Smile

Kangi Ska

Aug 29 2012, 5:29pm

Views: 11023
I confess

it is all my fault. I did it all. I just could not help my self. I throw myself upon the mercy of the board. It all began when I was just a hatching and all the regular black Crows were pecking on me. I had to grow up tough or die. So if I have trodden upon any toes or not been serious enough or silly enough or have been rude, crude or lewd at any of the wrong points. Forgive me. I do not want to get thrown out of the nest again.Smile

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.


Aug 29 2012, 5:32pm

Views: 10848
Passion brings out so many things

I am certainly of being arrogant many times, and for that I do apologizeAngelic. Thanks for the reminder to be courteous to others.

Now maybe if we had some more to eat (more spy reports and new sneak peek), we wouldn't be eating eachother lol.

Its a fun board and I always love reading everything on here that I can, makes my day fly by.

"clever hobbits to climb so high!"
Check out my writing


Aug 29 2012, 5:38pm

Views: 10899
That must have been hard... glad you finally came clean.


Nah you're a delight... seeing you around the place always brightens my day.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on 0 secs ago)

Forum Admin / Moderator

Aug 29 2012, 5:43pm

Views: 10781

If we are all united in one thing, it's passion. We all care deeply about Tolkien and the movies, positive or negative. Smile

Tol Eressea

Aug 29 2012, 6:06pm

Views: 10808
I wouldn't be without them -

- emoticons that is..



Aug 29 2012, 6:43pm

Views: 10814
I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise to mods/admins, and users (either regular or not) for breaking any of these rules

I am here for the same reason as everyone else - our passion of Tolkien. I hope I am not viewed as a nuisance to anyone, nor make anyone feel uncomfortable with any of my comments (or number of posts). You all know I'm a little excitable, so you'll all have to forgive me. 99% of the time, my posts are supposed to have a hint of humour in them. This isn't always realised by everyone. If I have ever pointed out a flaw, or made a personal comment on your view, opinion or self, that has made you feel uncomfortable, then I apologise.

I look forward to many more years of posting on TORn, and getting to know you all a whole lot more.

Here's to TORn, and the wonderful staff that keep this place enjoyable, fun, and troll free.

Now, let's post some spam to keep the admins busy muahahaha! Evil

(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 29 2012, 6:46pm)

Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea

Aug 29 2012, 6:57pm

Views: 10853
*Guiltily raises hand* Apologies...

I'll freely admit I've played my own part in this atmosphere of late. Typically, I like to be respectful of other people's views and opinions of things and not let those differing opinions get to me in a negative way. I fear lately I've become a bit overzealous, however, in defending the LotR film adaptations against certain posters who may have been stating opposing views. My love of the trilogy has made this a very tempting thing to engage in, and I'm not particularly proud of myself. Everyone has the right to feel the way they feel, and it's not my place to try and convince them otherwise. Normally I'm quite good about this, but lately I feel like I've let my passions get the better of me.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. That's the last thing I would want, and I'll do better in tempering my responses a bit.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence

Alassa Eruvande

Aug 29 2012, 7:27pm

Views: 6156
Are you still passing out the "ignore cards"?


And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.


Aug 29 2012, 7:38pm

Views: 5951
I want to add that i am sorry for any part i have played in this and meant no offense to anyone //



Aug 29 2012, 7:55pm

Views: 6006
Oh, most definitely!

*hands everyone a free "Ignore DanielLB" card*

Everyone did read the small print didn't they?


It only works for 5 posts, after that there's a renewal fee! Tongue


Aug 29 2012, 7:57pm

Views: 5982
So its good for

about 5 mins before renewal, lol. That's a good money making scheme!


Aug 29 2012, 8:01pm

Views: 5955
I'll make it fairer, you can choose which 5 posts to ignore! ;-P /


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Aug 29 2012, 8:02pm)

Grey Havens

Aug 29 2012, 10:11pm

Views: 5858
Nice to see you around these parts Kangi.

Although I must confess, I've been missing the grumpier/sarcastic version of Kangi. Wink

"I warn you, if you bore me, I shall take my revenge"
--J.R.R. Tolkien

Alassa Eruvande

Aug 29 2012, 11:22pm

Views: 5981
Better gimme a handful, then.


And suddenly the Tornadoes saw afar off a greenlight, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame;
and they knew that this was no vision only, but that PJ had made a new thing: The Hobbit, the Film that Is.

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Aug 30 2012, 12:53am

Views: 5916
I apologize as well...

...if any of my behavior has contributed to the downturn in atmosphere on the boards (I'll freely admit, I prefer to get the last word in a debate! Tongue). I'll try and keep more of check on my posting style in the future. Hopefully, excitement and optimism will win out over doubt or bickering in the coming months as we finally begin our long-expected journey! Smile

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

Kangi Ska

Aug 30 2012, 1:30am

Views: 5853
I have been bighting my tongue.

With little real news coming out the threads haven't offered much to sink my beak into. Also turning 64 woke me up. I took an oath to be a kinder and gentler old crow. Besides if I get grumpy I am certain to get a little note.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Ziggy Stardust

Aug 30 2012, 2:05am

Views: 5857

I apologize if I've broken any rules or offended anyone. Trust me, it's not my intent, I don't like to offend (or be offended). I will be more careful from now on.


Aug 30 2012, 3:37am

Views: 6042
Reading over the whole list

I am certainly guilty of occasionally violating some of those standards. My apologies to everyone and anyone that may have been on the receiving end! I promise to buy you some chocolates, if you tell me who you are! Smile

Tol Eressea

Aug 30 2012, 12:11pm

Views: 5893
My name is geordie

- and I like Yorkie bars.



Aug 30 2012, 5:09pm

Views: 5868

I feel that I have been debating pretty harshly towards you in the films & book debates of late. If I have crossed the line in any occasion, I sincerely apologize.

A thread like this is a healthy reminder indeed that we are all supposed to behave in a good manner, and I feel guilty for having been a part of the rather heated discussions of late.

The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Aug 31 2012, 6:55pm

Views: 5716
Well worded, as usual, Silverlode.

I've just been steering clear.


Permanent address: Into the West

Tol Eressea

Aug 31 2012, 7:39pm

Views: 5701
Not to worry -

- I haven't taken any offence, and I hope I haven't given any.



Aug 31 2012, 8:21pm

Views: 5659
Thank you for posting this!

Whilst I am relatively new to these boards, it has been very easy to notice certain problems and unhealthy debates occurring from time to time. I raise my hand and admit that I am not guilt-free in the slightest. As some others have stated of themselves, I am one of those people who are prone to wild moments of passion (I still regret that terrible thread I made about the Arkenstone a month or so ago!).

Therefore, I would like to use this thread as an opportunity to sincerely apologize to anyone and everyone that I may have inadvertently upset during my time here. To paraphrase Peter Quince "You should think I come not to offend, but with good will."

"Radagast is, of course, a worthy wizard, a master of shapes and changes of hue, and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends."-Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings.

Grey Havens

Aug 31 2012, 11:32pm

Views: 5757
mods up

I mostly avoid the Hobbit board because I don't want to know everything about the movie before I see it, and the occasional peek in the door has shown a much more rough and tumble atmosphere than I wish to endure. Hopefully this will prove to be oil on the troubled waters.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll


Sep 1 2012, 11:52am

Views: 5605
That is good to hear


The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

Tol Eressea

Sep 1 2012, 11:54am

Views: 5746
O.O hadn't really realised about this souring forum mood!... thanks, I'll be on best behaviour ;) //


Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!

-I am a victim of Bifurcation- (credit to Elpidha)

Dwarves: 'Erebor!', 'Erebor!!', '..Erebor!'
Bilbo: .. It's only a CGI model
Dwarves: 'Shhhhh!'

Ugly Troll

Sep 3 2012, 5:16pm

Views: 5607
Ha Ha

This is why I love TORN so much. Every site has rules about etiquette, but TORN actually enforces them. No wonder I keep on coming back for education, information and entertainment. And occasionally, to win over a lovely elf maiden for marriage.

You admins are the best, and have done such a great job for so many ages, you must have magic rings to keep it up so tirelessly, and long.

And no, Patty, this probably doesn't mean I'm going to come out of lurking more; I like it just fine, lurking here beneath the bridges between the forums. And the whole sunlight know....


Sep 3 2012, 7:23pm

Views: 5556

Good to see you, sunlight or no.

And all the best to the lovely elf-maiden! We miss her.

"When light finally begins to come into our lives after a long darkness, only to reveal that one has still farther to go, what various ways might one react?"
- Dreamdeer

The weekly discussion of The Hobbit is back. Join us in the Reading Room for a somewhat less clever discussion of Flies and Spiders!

Greenwood Hobbit
Grey Havens

Sep 3 2012, 8:13pm

Views: 5614
Congratulations on that well-crafted reminder -

it must have taken quite some time to put together, time which you probably don't really have! Your insistence on maintaining standards is what makes TORn such a special place. Thank you very much. I hope the words are taken to heart and things settle down now, and the unpleasantness passes. Love the title, too - very apt!


Sep 4 2012, 3:06pm

Views: 5573
Thank you, Silverlode

And thank you and all the Admins for working so hard to maintain such standards here at TORn.


Sep 5 2012, 3:19am

Views: 5541
I love TORn...


Thanks for calling us to the "higher good".


Grey Havens

Sep 6 2012, 3:41pm

Views: 5658
And this is why...

... I stay out of the Hobbit board most of the time... already went through the LOTR boxing match... not really keen on seeing it again.

"Once burned, twice shy."

Blessed are the cracked,
For they are the ones who let in the light!

(This post was edited by diedye on Sep 6 2012, 3:43pm)

Ugly Troll

Sep 7 2012, 12:43am

Views: 5966
The elf-maiden appreciates your kind words and returns your greetings\



Sep 24 2012, 1:40am

Views: 5509
What I've noticed -

Since this thread went up I've noticed that the courtesy of our hall is somewhat improved... greatly improved. Even on the part of some of our notoriously negative and acerbic members there has been a remarkable change for the better.

In short everyone seems to be playing together quite well lately. Without reservation I can say to everyone, well done! Especially to our admins and mods, without whose efforts and leadership a turnaround like this would not have been possible.

Looking forward to the very busy months ahead, my hope is twofold: that peace will continue to reign in this place; and that people would be willing to take a fresh look at each other -- especially their nemesis, if they have one -- and let bygones be bygones.

Want a The Hobbit cover of your own for World Hobbit Day? Click Here
Thank you Magpie!

(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Sep 24 2012, 1:47am)


Sep 24 2012, 3:00am

Views: 6104

The rule of law is only as strong as those who uphold it. Kudos to the admins for promoting, and enforcing, discipline, courtesy and respect. Not an easy task.

One need only head over to AICN to see what a moderator-less conversation can look like. Appalling.


hobbit N.Z
Registered User

Oct 12 2012, 6:13am

Views: 5247

I completely agree with those rules, but I have actually found the forum quite nice.
-Hobbit from N.Z Wink

Forum Admin / Moderator

Oct 13 2012, 3:52am

Views: 5413
Thanks, and welcome!

Yes, happily, the forum has calmed quite a bit since this was posted and become much more its old self again. But we've left this here because it's always good to have a reminder, and we are always gaining new members who may not be used to our style. I'm glad you've found it a good place to be. Cool


The Shire

Oct 18 2012, 12:41am

Views: 5987
I'm new, but so far I'm enjoying the pleasant atmosphere here

So I assume the moderators must be doing a good job. I was a Mod for a forum and I know how hard it can be to tread that line between censoring free speech and just keeping things civil. But from what I've seen in my lurking the staff here are doing quite well. So bravo. I look forward to becoming more involved in this community.


Nov 12 2012, 9:03pm

Views: 6142
Well stated....

I have not been around much lately, missed some rows I see...but I see people stepping up and making peace, which is great!


Dec 16 2012, 1:26pm

Views: 4408
The most refreshing post I've seen in a long time

You have no idea how refreshing it is to see this post.

I haven't been here for a long while, mainly because facebook has been sucking most of my computer screen time.

I deactivated my fb account yesterday specifically because of all of the negativity and the fact that it had become unenjoyable.

There are few things I love more than Tolkien.

I'm so happy the mods/admins here emphasize all of the points made in this post.

It's nice to know there's a place we can go to discuss and read about these beloved stories openly, freely and respectfully with others who feel the same way knowing that disrespect will not be tolerated.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

Close the door, put out the light.
You know they won't be home tonight.
The snow falls hard and don't you know?
The winds of Thor are blowing cold.
They're wearing steel that's bright and true
They carry news that must get through.

They choose the path where no-one goes.

They hold no quarter.

Forum Admin / Moderator

Dec 16 2012, 1:45pm

Views: 4338

Hi! Every now and then, I'd wonder where you were...welcome back! Smile


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


Dec 17 2012, 7:04pm

Views: 4245
Hi Dernwyn

Thank you. Smile

I don't know how often I can pop in as I'm trying to do less screen time in general, but it's nice to be back.

Close the door, put out the light.
You know they won't be home tonight.
The snow falls hard and don't you know?
The winds of Thor are blowing cold.
They're wearing steel that's bright and true
They carry news that must get through.

They choose the path where no-one goes.

They hold no quarter.


Dec 17 2012, 7:52pm

Views: 4701

PC freaks. How is that for courtesy?


Jan 4 2013, 1:41am

Views: 5220
Don't be rude

I just wanted to post in this thread because the title makes me laugh.

Davy Jones could've been Bilbo...I mean he was a Brit with a sense for adventure, singing & dancing. And think of the costs it would've save with forced perspective: he was ACTUALLY 5'3. He also hung out with a grumpy tall dude in a hat (Mike Nesmith.) While we're at it let's just have Micky Dolenz and Peter Tork as Merry & Pippin.


Mar 23 2013, 3:13pm

Views: 3983
Oh dear....I broke several...Will strive not to do that again

What an utter belligerent poster I was before I actually saw the Hobbit and loved it.

I apologize to any and all I might have offended with my erroneous perceptions. To get so rankled about something you haven't seen in context - let me learn from this.

And the two things I was most in arms about, I wound up loving (Radagast and Thorin's appearance.)

I am truly sorry for being a cantankerous Capricorn. This is a wonderful forum and I would like to be part of that wonderful.

/Sue -BTB

"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you anywhere." - Albert Einstein.


Apr 12 2013, 12:29am

Views: 4073
Bomby Loves YouALL too Much!

If ever Bomby messes with anyone..
Banish me to Valinor

To Dance under the Stars
with ALL of our

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Jun 17 2013, 9:17pm

Views: 3647
Is anyone else a bit tired of the uncivil complaining about people complaining?

And yes, now I'm complaining about people complaining about people complaining!

I noticed this really start around the time that AUJ came out, and since then it's gotten worse, not better. It seems to be rather one-sided: those fans who were disappointed in the films are criticizing the films themselves, while (some) fans who enjoyed the films are criticizing other posters on these boards.

Just in the past few days, I've encountered comments such as "disliking TH is absurd"; "I'm disappointed on certain posters on here"; one board member to another who had critiqued the film: "just because you didn't like something doesn't mean it didn't work" (IE "my opinion is fact and anyone who disagrees with my objective like for TH is wrong"); and just today "the saddening weight of negativity weights down most threads on these boards". These there's the general lecturing about "nitpicking", "you're just looking for something to complain about", ETC.

Granted, both sides have been guilty of this in the past (including myself), but really, IMO, the atmosphere risks becoming a bit toxic due to dissenting opinions of those who aren't brimming with enthusiasm for TH films being shouted down.

We're a fanbase, not a cult: those who enjoyed the films are not the "true fans" who got the genius of Peter Jackson while the rest of us losers were too busy winging to notice. Tongue Yet that's exactly the attitude I've seen around here recently in certain posts.

By all means, all manner of opinion should be allowed: those who enjoy the films, those who liked parts of the them, those who didn't, those who are undecided. But IMO, we should limit the arguments to the topic at hand, and not whether one is "disappointed" with other posters, or thinks they're "haters", or "trolls", or what have you.

Perhaps it's just me, and I'm totally off. Anywho, wanted to put it out there. Smile

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 17 2013, 9:26pm)

Na Vedui

Jun 17 2013, 10:23pm

Views: 3604
Nature of complaints

I haven't (and won't) complain about people complaining, per se; everyone's entitled to their opinion, and there are things about both LOTR and TH that I like, and things that I don't, so I can sympathise with both sides to some extent.

What has disturbed me is the way some of the complaints have been framed. They've gone way beyond "I don't like this / this was badly done" into assuming that the poster knows exactly what motivates the director / scriptwriter / whoever, and that it is something reprehensible, and then badmouthing the person behind their back on that basis. I know it's possible that any or all of the movie team may lurk on TORN or post under a pseudonym, but we don't know for certain, nor if so, who, nor what they are reading, so ethically speaking it is behind their back. They deserve better than that, not because they are perfect, or because they are PJ, Philippa Boyens or whoever, but because they are human beings.

Tol Eressea

Jun 17 2013, 10:24pm

Views: 3650
Thing is

we often feel that theres a percentage of said fanbase that wishes these boards would be a complete jackson gloryfest. No "bad vibes"...

The whole "how dare you" " hey, hey, pj is doing his best" " why do people gotta be such nitpickers" " theres too much negativity around here" , "gee why do you have to be always criticizing" thing, is a symptom of this blind fandom attitude.

And those who do not share this mindset have been persecuted, shut down, attacked, threatened even.

I think part of the problem lies with a significant percentage of posters who dont seem to be able to deal with anything that isnt glorying, praising to the heavens, constant boasting, revering almost, of jacksons films.

This doenst happen everywhere. Many people who dont like jacksons films dont even come here, because the "environment" does not seem to be receptive.

This is not an isolated phenomenon. In a variety of ther places and situations in life, people tend to flock to groups where they feel more welcome or where there is a kinship or agreement of minds.


Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Jun 17 2013, 10:25pm)

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Jun 17 2013, 10:35pm

Views: 3596
BTW, wanted to say:

I don't mean to hijack the thread, so if I'm going so or it creates further argument, mods feel free to move or delete. Smile

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 17 2013, 10:35pm)

Captain Salt
Tol Eressea

Jun 17 2013, 10:41pm

Views: 3593
Understandable, and I hope PJ and Co. are not offended by what they read on here...

On the other hand, I'd hope (and expect) that they wouldn't be sensitive to the point of being insulted by what they read on the internet. It's part of the job.

Certainly, frustrated fan venting IMO is fine as long as long as it's respectful to other posters, (and IMO, the remark that say, "PJ and company think themselves better writers than Tolkien" or something along those lines isn't so much supposing that a poster knows exactly what drives the creative team, just a reaction the what they've gleamed from events thus far).

But I agree that we shouldn't partake in baseless slander (which IMO is usually not the case here). I think we have a better track record in that regard than many film sites. Smile

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 17 2013, 10:42pm)

Na Vedui

Jun 17 2013, 10:52pm

Views: 3556
Well yes...

"I think we have a better track record in that regard than many film sites"

.... I've seen a lot worse elsewhere! TORN is pretty civilised on the whole, it's just a few posts that had a rather nasty taste lately.

The Grey Elf
Grey Havens

Jun 17 2013, 11:06pm

Views: 3607
Just reread this to refresh memory

And think that I could be a bit more circumspect in my comments. If only we had a button where we could actually hear a poster saying what they've posted, misunderstandings might arise less often. Inflection colors meaning in a powerful way. Without it, well, the burden is on how well we can string words together and we are not all equally -- or consistently -- articulate. As you say, always give people the benefit of a doubt and ask for clarification before assuming anything. Smile

Forum Admin / Moderator

Jun 20 2013, 9:16pm

Views: 3565
There's also a number of regulars

who avoid the Hobbit board because they think the atmosphere is too toxic because of all the antipathy toward the movies.

It goes both ways, and no one is threatened, unless they continue to break the rules, and only after repeated warnings. It's just a message board on the internet, so no one is going to be hurt, or lose their job, because of what someone says. The worst that can happen is someone is banned from TORn.

The admins watch HOW someone posts, not necessarily WHAT they post. We have defended folks who don't like the movies as well as those who do. We have admonished people who love the movies as well as those who do not. We discuss what's happening on the boards every day, and always come to a consensus before we take any action. Most of the people never see what we do because it occurs via PM.

It does help to have a sense of humor while posting. I've found that a smile or a laugh can usually dissolve tension and help people find common ground.

Tol Eressea

Jun 25 2013, 8:57pm

Views: 3488
For what it may be worth -

- I was a regular poster until a few months ago, when the movie came out. Frankly, I feel that the overwhelming feeling on the hobbit board is that which Lusitano refers to - IMO an outpouring of reverence for the movie, and the movie-makers, with little or no room for folk who have a contrary opinion. I definitely feel it isn't a place where I feel comfortable any more.


Jun 25 2013, 10:48pm

Views: 3421
But we still love you in the Reading Room :-)

All your posts are incredibly knowledgeable and helpful.

Tol Eressea

Jun 26 2013, 12:11pm

Views: 3405
Very kind of you to say so -

- thank you.

Tol Eressea

Jun 30 2013, 4:46pm

Views: 5695
Well those posters

should search other forums, because the mood and general preference from many on torn is to be very sympathetic towards jackson and his films. Unlike other places, which are much more critical. Even now, with mre criticism than say, last year, the philosophy is still the same.

I am not proclaiming it should change, torn has had connections with the films, that naturally, create a more intimate relationship that can lead to a less critical stance.

Despite recent criticisms, torn is still very friendly.

Obviously no one is going to lose their jobs or get hurt, lol, but people can get pushed away.

I make mine Geordies words, as she makes mine, hers.

As for humour, sometimes yes, if you are in the mood.

But sometimes i feel as if the humour is used as a sort of attempt to keep "positivity" on.Thats fine for some, but not for others.

Who knows, how these matters will evolve ...


Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Jun 30 2013, 5:37pm

Views: 5672
well this forum is certainly the politest

I have ever seen.
It makes me feel like I am Lurtz gatecrashing a Ladies cake and tea party, it makes me feel like I have just grabbed one of the ladies pet pooches, put it between two pieces of delicately cut bread, and devoured it. While one of the ladymods thwacks me on my shins with a lace parasol. Sometimes I feel like an Oik Orc of the first degree.



Jun 30 2013, 7:13pm

Views: 5630

...geordie's a 'he'.

Forum Admin / Moderator

Jul 1 2013, 5:59am

Views: 5718
Well, what I'm hearing lately (general response)

is a remarkably equal number of complaints from both sides. The people who didn't like the movie feel they're being shouted down by those who did. Those who liked the movie feel that those who didn't are determined not to let anyone else enjoy it either. Both sides complain that they can't say how they feel without being told how wrong they are. Everyone thinks the Hobbit board is toxic because of everyone else, and nobody seems to think that they themselves are contributing to this atmosphere. We have lots of pots and kettles milling around right now.

What we need is a little more allowance on both sides for people to hold differing opinions. You do not have to balance out anyone else or their opinions. Agree to disagree and move on. If you try to make things "even", all that happens is that both sides jump on each other at every opportunity, until it becomes a feud of retaliation. People who didn't like the movie can never say so without someone who did telling them why they are wrong, and people who liked the movie never get to just enjoy it without having all of its "flaws" pointed out to them. If you don't think someone should get to just state the opposite opinion and have it stand without being "corrected" or "balanced", then you are part of the problem because you are making them feel jumped on, persecuted, etc, and they're likely to turn around and do the same to you. How do you feel when someone cannot let your opinion stand without "correction"? If you see something that you disagree with and just have to respond, ask yourself why. Are you wanting a conversation exploring/explaining your differences, or are you trying to "fix" the the other person? Conversation is fine, fixing is not. Nobody likes being "fixed" (especially on a matter of opinion about a work of fiction) and those who try to fix others, even with the best of motives, invariably come across as arrogant and aggressive.

Try treating people as individuals, which they are, instead of part of some monolithic "side". There are no fan unions here, just individuals sitting behind different computer screens scattered all over the world. Each one agrees with some people on some points and disagrees with some people on some points. It's a spectrum of opinions without a hard dividing line, and nobody should be held "responsible" for an opinion expressed by someone else. I've seen a lot of that lately, people assigning "sides" and feeling that talking to one person on that side is the equivalent of talking to all of them. It's not, especially on these boards where a large number of people read threaded. Each post is a direct response to a single person, not a group response to the whole thread. If you mean to respond generally, you'd better make that clear, because otherwise the person your post is listed as replying to is going to take everything you said as directed at them personally. If you respond to someone with a different opinion, expect disagreement. Debate is fine, as long as it's civil and respectful. Show respect for the person even if you don't respect their opinion. A lot of the bad feeling lately is the result of people feeling that they or someone they like (including the filmmakers) is being personally disrespected, as opposed to simply disagreeing with a thing they've done or said.

The mods are not interested in taking sides (we have many differing views on the movie among ourselves) but we are available to everyone and absolutely interested in making these boards a place where everyone can converse without hostility.

Repeat after me: Live and let live. It's only a movie.


"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."

Superuser / Moderator

Jul 1 2013, 11:54am

Views: 5581

I was going to add similar comments. But, you beat me too it and said it much better than I could, as usual. Smile

From the comments in this sub-thread, and other recent ones on Hobbit and Feedback, it seems the Hobbit board is pretty well-balanced, and I think that's a good and healthy place for it to be: a place where both sides can enjoy discussions not only with people with whom they agree (that can get monotonous pretty quickly), but with those who have differing opinions. The only thing I'd add to what you said is that the last thing people should do is let themselves get annoyed or angry, of all things, at someone else because their opinion differs from theirs. To coin a phrase, no one can make you feel annoyed or angered by their personal opinion without your permission. People should give themselves permission to enjoy the diversity of opinions on the Hobbit board right now, not feel frustrated or annoyed by them (unless, of course, someone is violating the Terms of Service, in which case PM your friendly Admin). Smile

Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.

"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase

(This post was edited by Altaira on Jul 1 2013, 11:56am)


Jul 1 2013, 5:01pm

Views: 5594
What I take issue with...

Is that the professional complainers re-complain the same points because those threads sink out of sight, and new ones take their place, affording them the gleeful opportunity to re-complain.

Eowyn of Penns Woods

Jul 1 2013, 5:53pm

Views: 5563
*sigh* So many opportunities

for deploying this golden oldie these days, but I must behave because NuTORn isn't the old boards. =)


Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011

Forum Admin / Moderator

Jul 1 2013, 7:24pm

Views: 6409
I love that.

It never gets old because it's always true. I think it could stand an occasional appearance. Wink


"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."


Oct 29 2013, 7:46pm

Views: 5471
I wanted to repeat myself here.

Because this thread still has some relevance, as still there seem to be some who think the boards are biased in a positive way and others who think too much complaining is going on.

I commented on it in one thread as I found myself on both sides over the last months and weeks and wanted to contribute that in this thread that sticks for a while, while other threads may sink down swiftly :)

It always saddens me when posts and threads get unneccessarily confrontational (although I am sure sometimes to blame myself).

Can't we all discuss the pros and cons of those books and movies without having to tell others they either did not "get Tolkien" or did not "get filmmaking" (whatever both of them mean or whoever thinks he or she can be a judge of that, anyways)? Or even go down the path of calling others "haters" or "fanboys"?

It is funny that on one board I am active on I was sometimes "attacked" for being too critical towards the movies (especially LotR) and should try to think more as a filmmaker, while on TORN I even got messages asking me how on earth I could perceive myself as someone who respects Tolkien if I defend choices made in both LotR and TH. Well, because I do not view either one as sacred... and do not dismiss the fact that Tolkien himself and his works should and could be open to criticism as well, just as PJ's work.

A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Nov 6 2013, 1:47pm

Views: 5328
I've noticed...

....that people have been especially mean to Tauriel and Azog, and they aren't even around to defend themselves.

Smeagol Bagginsess

Nov 7 2013, 5:57am

Views: 5279
I dont understand what you mean by

Being mean to Tauriel or Azog. If people dislike them, I believe it is their right to voice their concerns as much as they want.

And 2 locked threads in a day. Wow, things have gone heated.


Nov 7 2013, 9:35am

Views: 5384
Don't mind me

It was just sarcasm.

Registered User

Dec 6 2013, 10:11pm

Views: 5200
Courtesy in all things

I am VERY new to this particular forum, so cannot comment about any untoward behaviors here. BUT I have noted on other sites (not Tolkien-related) that there is tendency toward unseemly behavior -- at times, there have even been what I can only call crude and rude comments (crass also comes to mind) -- for no reason. People can be very wed to their opinions about things or other people -- and while I wore a USN uniform for many years and took an oath to protect and defend the constitution (and hence the freedom of speech etc.) -- we all need to be courteous and respectful in our dealings with others. Some of the things I have seen on other sites left me aghast -- not only at what was written -- but that it was written on so public a forum to begin with.

So -- from a newbie -- courtesy and respect should be bywords for all.


Clarella Hardbottom

Tol Eressea

Dec 6 2013, 10:52pm

Views: 5572
Welcome, Clarella!

You will find TORn in general a safe and courteous place to hang out. This thread was a reminder to all of us what standard of interaction is expected here, and the Terms of Service and these guidelines ensure that discussion usually remains civil compared to some other websites, largely thanks to the Moderators who keep us honest. We do not always agree, and discussion and emotion can be intense, but name calling, foul language and trolling are watched carefully by the ever-vigilant team of admins. If such things appear, they are removed, and if someone continues after warnings, he or she is asked to leave. Some posters object to that level of oversight, but it is what makes this forum much more pleasant than the average, IMHO.

If you ever have a question about a particular post, you can send a private message to one of the moderators if you check "Who's Online" above, or a quicker way is to mention it on the Feedback forum where a moderator will look into it very quickly, indeed. I learned a lot from Silverlode's essay on TORnetiquette and try to keep Item 13 in mind at all times, though I sometimes fail and need a reminder like yours today to go back and read it again. (Thanks again, Silverlode.)

I'd say that there is very little shocking behaviour on TORn - unless it is that not everybody agrees with me on everything!Laugh

See you around the boards!


(This post was edited by Lissuin on Dec 6 2013, 10:55pm)


Feb 14 2014, 12:31am

Views: 5139
Is it possible get some sort of a reminder post on The Hobbit forums about being respectful, etc? The level of courtesy seems to be degrading rapidly, particularly in threads of certain topics Unsure

keep smiling Smile

Forum Admin / Moderator

Feb 18 2014, 5:50pm

Views: 9390
Thanks - sorry for the belated reply

We do post reminders and try to monitor the message boards to determine when a new reminder is timely. We usually aim for expected periods of high traffic - the Blu Ray/DVD release, new trailers, movie openings, etc.

In addition, we watch the threads and put in courtesy reminders when we think the conversation is becoming too heated. Of course we don't see everything, but with admins scattered literally across the world, we get pretty good coverage.

Of course, if you see a particular thread that is turning nasty, don't feel bad about contacting an Admin. We're always glad for the help! You can do it via PM if you would prefer.