The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
The Ring Wraiths



TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 17 2012, 4:27pm


Views: 5673
The Ring Wraiths

I was wondering if anyone noticed that in the movies That The Witch King seemed stronger then when he was Stabbing Frodo. I asked this because Gandalf seems afraid of him and gets his staff destroyed. Yet back at Weathertop Aragorn runs all 5 off.
But i also suppose maybe wizards have weaknesses to Sauron servents and maybe Men do not.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 17 2012, 5:17pm


Views: 3429
Nope

Your question can be answered simply:


Quote
"Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness." - Aragorn, A Knife in the Dark, Fellowship of the Ring


That is why Aragorn succeeds on Weathertop


imin
Valinor

Mar 17 2012, 5:27pm


Views: 3272
for me the gandalf and ringwraith scene

was not done particularly well. In the book it was done differently but that is like many scenes from book to the movie. I personally prefer the books version which has them more on an even footing, with me leaning towards gandalf the white being stronger (but perhaps not by very much).


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 17 2012, 5:31pm


Views: 3279
Now you mention it, that scene was done poorly

In the book, Gandalf presents himself to the Witch King as he strode through the gates of Minas Tirith alone. Gandalf was done a horrible injustice in that scene. This is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in all of ME, but he is made short work of by the Witchking


Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell


Mar 17 2012, 6:47pm


Views: 3159
Waxing and waning Wraiths

IIRC, both in the book and the EE of the movie, the Witch King says "This is my hour!" and I take him at his word, the point being that I think the Nazgul become more powerful as Sauron rises and as they get closer to Mordor and the Shadow.

I still don't like the movie scene and agree that the book encounter is much better, but I don't think the Witch King on Weathertop (or in Crickhollow, for that matter) is in the same league as Witch King at the siege of Minas Tirith.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 17 2012, 6:50pm


Views: 3269
In addition...

to DanielLB's comments I remember that it is stated somewhere that Sauron enhances the With King's power before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''

(This post was edited by Ereinion Nénharma on Mar 17 2012, 6:50pm)


imin
Valinor

Mar 17 2012, 7:13pm


Views: 3149
true

but gandalf comes back with greater powers also. I dunno i just dont like seeing one of my favourite characters reduced to being afraid on the floor.


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 17 2012, 9:24pm


Views: 3124
I Am Sure

Movie wise i believe the scene where Gandalf gets his Staff broken was deleted and only seen in the extended editions. I believe it was meant to show that Gondor was at its most desperate hour when Rohan can with the dawn rising deal. So thus it was a tension loss because I do not believe The Witch King is as powerful as a Balrog when a Women can beat him.


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 17 2012, 9:30pm


Views: 3123
As To That

I am not so sure there is much big difference between Gandalf The Grey and White Powers. My observation is that Saurman failed as a White Wizard for good and got replaced. I think Gandalf is Stronger the Saruman at this point but I Think The Nazgul was not facing Aragorn but an Old Man really. I think the Nazgul actually are afraid of the King Of Men.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 17 2012, 9:41pm


Views: 3165
Wow, what a massive simplification...


In Reply To
So thus it was a tension loss because I do not believe The Witch King is as powerful as a Balrog when a Women can beat him.


I don't think Eowyn's gender had the inherent power of making her able to slay the Witchking- it was a prophecy spoken I think by Cirdan (correct me if I am wrong?). It said that no man would kill him and suggested he would be defeated in ways unlooked for- i.e. a woman and a hobbit killing him.

Merry's blade was forged in Numenor (at the time he ruled Angmar) which was essentially able to "break the spell that bound his hidden sinews to his iron will", leaving him vulnerable to attack. Theoretically Merry could have finished the job himself but all blades that strike the evil wraith perish, and touching any Nazgul brings on a dread sickness called the Black Breath.


This is a complete side discussion (sorry), and is my interpretation. Is it right?


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 17 2012, 9:59pm


Views: 3143
Well

I did remember merry Stabbing him but a person would not get his Dagger was special if did not have the EE FOTR movie. I just assumed that his dagger was elf made like Bilbos sting.
Thats another question
Why does Sting Glow and Aragorns Dagger and legolas Swords never did.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 17 2012, 10:02pm


Views: 3157
Sting, Glamdring and Orcrist

Were made in Gondolin during the First Age. They all glowed when orcs/goblins were nearby.

Aragorn's and Legolas' weapons were not of Gondolin


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Mar 17 2012, 10:16pm


Views: 3079
the worst part is...

He didn't even use the Noldor dagger he got from Lothlorien on the Witch King. He just used the small Rohan sword he had.

That detail has always REALLY annoyed me.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Mar 17 2012, 10:18pm


Views: 3074
super Witch King

I think it was mentioned in one of Tolkien's letters.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 17 2012, 10:22pm


Views: 3093
This letter?

Trying to have a think, but this is on wikipedia


Quote
They would have obeyed . . . any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills . . . — The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 246



DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 17 2012, 10:24pm


Views: 3152
ssssh

Minor detail Wink

Otherwise we will get more questions!


imin
Valinor

Mar 17 2012, 11:36pm


Views: 3100
i

didnt get that impression of gandalf being 'only' an old man, the witch king and gandalf must have respected each other on a level of 'ooh he might be able to hurt me' level atleast thats what i get from the book, the movie to me just weakens gandalf to the point where i think its fair to assume he would have lost if the battle of continued, but like you say it makes you think gondors only hope is with rohan arriving.

Where in the FOTR EE does it show merry getting the barrow down blade or anything other than a blade given to him by aragorn when they are at weathertop? Its been awhile since i last seen the movie so i genuinely cant remember.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 18 2012, 12:00am


Views: 3110
Witch King XL


In Reply To
I think it was mentioned in one of Tolkien's letters.


Could be, I´m not sure...


In Reply To
Trying to have a think, but this is on wikipedia


Quote
They would have obeyed . . . any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills . . . — The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 246



No, I don´t mean this part. It was something like ´and Sauron added him (The Witch King) with additional demonic power'. Something like that. Is it not in LOTR itself?

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 18 2012, 12:23am


Views: 3132
In the EE Version Of FOTR

Merry and Pippin were given elf knifes and i assumed its why when Merry stabs The Witch King it hurts him. To an elf they are knifes. To A Hbbit its likely Dagger sized. I believe the sequence of the gift giving is on disc 2 after Frodo is freaked out by Galadrial and the Mirror


imin
Valinor

Mar 18 2012, 12:58am


Views: 3036
oh ok

I thought he stabbed the witch king with the blade aragorn found somewhere in the wild on weathertop, will have to watch them after i read through lotr again.


imin
Valinor

Mar 18 2012, 1:01am


Views: 3088
letter 210 is what ur looking for//

 


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Mar 18 2012, 4:16am


Views: 3063
Not the one I was thinking of, but good find.

The one I'm thinking of directly mentions the fact that the Witch King is more powerful during the Battle of Pelennor Fields. I'll have to look for it.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Mar 18 2012, 4:24am


Views: 3146
Merry's weapons in the movies

1. the sword from Aragorn: he loses it after charging the uruk-hai during Boromir's final stand

2. the Noldor dagger from Galadriel: it's not in its sheath when Grishnakh grabs his belt, so it can be assumed the uruk-hai disposed of it

3. the Rohan sword he presents to Theoden: he uses it to stab the Witch King, and it was probably destroyed

4. his second Rohan sword he uses at the Black Gate: assuming his first was destroyed after wounding the Witch King


PattyJB
Rivendell


Mar 18 2012, 5:18am


Views: 3204
Glorfindel makes the prophecy

at the end of the Battle of Fornost.

"Do not pursue him [the Witch-king]! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 18 2012, 7:05am


Views: 2982
I Was Thinking

Maybe the fact is that its not about Merry using and Elvish Blade but maybe the fact The Witch King was not stabbed by a human meaning men but a Hobbit. Merry is not Human so maybe that was the loop hole that opened it up for Eowyn To beat him.
I still however believe Aragorn could have beaten The Witch King. I think so because. In Star Wars the Force was Always with Luke and Obi Wan. So my feeling is Aragorn was liked by greater powers then that of Dark Saurons.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 18 2012, 7:46am


Views: 1953
I suppose you're right...

I don't remember, but I do think that is the part MooseBoy is looking for.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


imin
Valinor

Mar 18 2012, 9:28am


Views: 1939
Aragorn would not of beaten the witch king

no man could beat him, aragorn is a man, eowyn is not she is a women. hence how she fulfills the prophecy. I think with merry its more to do with his sword than him being a hobbit as he doesnt actually kill him just wounds him.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 9:48am


Views: 1925
Will check it out. Thanks imin /

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 9:50am


Views: 1935
A combination

As my reply further up, I don't think it is actually down to the fact that Eowyn is female. It is a combination of Merry stabbing him with a Noldor blade, in combination with Eowyn being there at the right time.

Unfortunately, as being discussed, the film messes it up a bit and makes it more complicated to explain. In terms of the film, I suppose it is Eowyn's gender that kills him Wink


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 18 2012, 1:02pm


Views: 1934
I Think Nasil

I think Nasil would be the difference for Aragorn against The Witch King. Also do remember it was The Nazgul saying no man can kill blah blah crap. I think movie wise he was boasting and was over confident. I say he would have Cut and ran if Aragorn showed up. Like he did at weather top.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 1:12pm


Views: 1925
Narsil

I've already said why the Ringwraiths fled on Weathertop, and as others have pointed out, Sauron increased the Witchkings power for the battle

Would he have fled - I doubt it, knowing the above.


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 18 2012, 1:16pm


Views: 1916
Also Consider

Aragorn was not the same as At Weather Top either. I think he was stronger as well as the Witch King. I am just saying I would have liked to had seen the two Kings do battle as a fan of Aragorn. Yes its a good deal for all the women of Rohan and Gondor Eowyn wins but i am saying I think anyone could have after Mery Stabbed him in the arse


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 1:18pm


Views: 1963
Yes, theoretically, anyone could have killed the Witch-King after Merry used his Noldor blade. /

 


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Mar 18 2012, 1:18pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 1:20pm


Views: 1853
Only just seen this

Thanks for the clarification Patty.

It was a toss up between Cirdan and Glorfindel. I was too lazy to check Blush


imin
Valinor

Mar 18 2012, 1:21pm


Views: 1885
Aragorn

Aragorn was stronger at weathertop. Stronger than who gandalf the white? Also i thought merry stabbed the back of his leg or am i getting confused with the scene from the book again? either way your comment made me laugh :)


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 1:22pm


Views: 1916
Twas behind his knee /

 


imin
Valinor

Mar 18 2012, 1:27pm


Views: 1866
noldor blade or dunedain?

Is it a noldor blade in the movie as i thought it was a dunedain blade in the book?


imin
Valinor

Mar 18 2012, 1:27pm


Views: 1847
back of leg behind his knee, same thing, haha//

 


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 18 2012, 1:28pm


Views: 1867
Noldor Blade

After watching all 3 movies i am not sure Merry has anything but a Rohan deal. I know Eowyn gives him Armor but he has some kind of Sword I just don't know where he got it.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 1:42pm


Views: 1853
I thought you said arm ;-) /

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 18 2012, 1:43pm


Views: 1985
Sorry, I meant Numenor, as my previous posts. And this is referring the books. The films mess it up a bit /

 


TheGoblinKing
Rohan

Mar 18 2012, 1:58pm


Views: 1928
Well I Still Think He Stabbed Him With The Elf Dagger

Thing is we never see Merry or Pippin lose there Daggers just the pelts


JohnsS29
The Shire


Mar 19 2012, 6:11am


Views: 1901
This is a great difference Between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White.

Gandalf the White is much more powerful as he tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli after he meets them in Fangorn Forest in the Book:


Quote
'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so I am, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. - The Lord of the Rings, Book Three, Chapter 5: The White Rider, pp. 499.


So the Gandalf the White in the book believes he is the second most dangerous person in all of Middle-Earth only Sauron being more dangerous. So the fact that Sauron had empowered the Nazgul King with more power did not cause him to quake at all and he was more than ready to face down the Nazgul King in the book.

Also, it's worth noting that Gandalf is not an "old man". He is not even human. He is a maia an angelic being. So the prophecy mentioned in other posts about the Nazgul King's fall not being at the hand of a man could apply just at much to him as it did to Eowyn.

JOHNS29


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 8:45am


Views: 1930
Definitely not his elf dagger

In the film I presume it's his Rohan sword - too big to be the dagger from Galadriel


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 2:18pm


Views: 1821
wow

I just never thought enough about what weapon it was. I mean, I KNEW it wasn't the blade from the barrows. That wasn't in the movie and I always considered the blades that Aragorn gives the Hobbits as the substitute for the barrow blades.

And, although I kind of *knew* Galadriel gave blades to Merry and Pippin and that both Merry and Pippin were given armor of Rohan and Gondor (respectively), somehow in my head I never let those later blades supplant the ones Aragorn gave. So I always thought Merry was using the one Aragorn gave him.

I just went to look (out of extreme controversy). I wouldn't have considered the blade he uses on the WitchKing too long because it flashes very quickly and it doesn't look long to me. But the hilt definitely looks like the hilt of the Rohan sword he's swinging around on Dunharrow and it makes total sense that is the blade he'd have on him.

What blade it is doesn't matter to any casual fan of the movies. But as a fan of the book, I will admit I regret that little point couldn't have been worked in. I get how it would complicate things too much and I guess it works like a sort of 'easter egg'. If you like the movie, you'll find all sorts of little delights in the book. :-)


LOTR soundtrack website
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 3:08pm


Views: 1858
Me neither!

Never really thought about it in this much depth until today. Wonder if there are any screencaps floating around so we can compare?


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 3:23pm


Views: 1770
Hold on

Could Merry's "Rohan" sword not be the sword given to him by Strider on Weathertop? There is nothing to say its "Rohan" at all!


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 3:25pm


Views: 1862
Apart from the horse on it!

http://scrapbook.theonering.net/...ts/edoras/view/11533

I thought I was onto something then Frown


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 5:08pm


Views: 1828
I can imagine an 'untold tale' about those blades from Aragorn


In Reply To
I just never thought enough about what weapon it was. I mean, I KNEW it wasn't the blade from the barrows. That wasn't in the movie and I always considered the blades that Aragorn gives the Hobbits as the substitute for the barrow blades.



I can just see a little side-story where Strider encounters the Barrow-wight from the book, vanquishes it (alone or with Tom Bombadil's help) and scavenges the blades from the barrow on a hunch (or a suggestion from Tom?) that they may prove useful.

"Darkness beyond blackest pitch, deeper than the deepest night!
King of Darkness, who shines like gold upon the Sea of Chaos.
I call upon thee and swear myself to thee!
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess!"


Magpie
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 5:46pm


Views: 1822
works for me! :-) //

 


LOTR soundtrack website
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Mar 19 2012, 11:05pm


Views: 1742
Hmmm I think the importance of gender comes across

In both the film and the text. I'm not sure why we are not happy to accept the role of Eowyn as "no man"?

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:11pm


Views: 1722
Certainly

I'm not questioning that at all. I'm just saying it was both Merry ans Eowyn, rather than just the gender.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:15pm


Views: 1694
I always like to think

That there are certain things from the book that still happened in between scenes (or variations of), but we didn't get to see. The Hobbit's don't say anything about not meeting Bombadil and Goldberry - who's to say they didn't Tongue


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Mar 19 2012, 11:17pm


Views: 1998
Oh both play a role

I quite agree. Perhaps I misunderstood. I had thought you meant that once Merry had stabbed him anyone I.e. male or female, human or not, could have finished him off.

LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:24pm


Views: 1727
I don't know

I mean theoretically, yes, anyone could have (since the Merry "diminished" his power). But theoretically doesn't always happen. Tolkien fulfilled the prophecy via Eowyn, so theoretically it could only ever be Eowyn Crazy


Lacrimae Rerum
Grey Havens

Mar 19 2012, 11:27pm


Views: 1690
Ah see I'm not so sure about that.

I think the "no man" clause still applies even after the stabbing. Otherwise it seems rather a lot of trouble to get the only female on the battelfield there and to highlight the "no man" business in her speech.
LR


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:32pm


Views: 1690
Yeppidy yep

That's why I said theoretically it always had to be Eowyn, as a "theoretical being" isn't the answer to the prophecy. Tolkien intended it to be Eowyn. (Just to clarify incase I'm confusing the hell out of you, yes I agree with you Wink)

Strangely enough, I just found this:

http://sciencefiction.com/...-fantasy-characters/

Maybe this is where the films fudge it for the general audience:


Quote

The hobbit Merry distracted the Witch-King, and Eowyn took advantage of the situation and did what no man could do – she killed the Witch-King



I don't the general audience appreciate Merry and Eowyn's combined role. Tolkien spent long and hard thinking of these plots and after this discussion it is clear that, for us more hardcore fans anway, a better scene was required in the films.


(This post was edited by DanielLB on Mar 19 2012, 11:33pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 19 2012, 11:36pm


Views: 1854
If only the men of Gondor knew this //

 

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 19 2012, 11:38pm


Views: 1787
Yes, does seem strange doesn't it

But I assume Sauron made them more "powerful" when it came to Pelennor.

Otherwise an eagle with a Ring and a single match could have gone into Mordor Wink


TheGoblinKing
Rohan


Mar 20 2012, 4:46am


Views: 1821
I Have A Question

If Sauron was as powerful as people feared why did he need the Nazgul, Saruman and all these beings. I know the Ring had some of his power but speaking as a person who likes to dream up stories. Sauron comes across kind of a lame villain. I mean all he can do is look with his eye. I loved these stories and The Orcs and baddies were wicked but really i think Sauron pumeling Aragorn in his bad boy way would have made the great ending when The Ring was destroyed.

The True King Of Mordor


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 5:50am


Views: 1792
Not that simple, IMO

Another part of it is that the ringwraiths on Weathertop are a long, long way from Mordor, and their Master. They are simply out of their element, and away from their source, and that weakens them. Think of being a small band of soldiers deep in enemy territory, cut off from supply lines and the command structure. You are very vulnerable.


Shelob'sAppetite
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 6:03am


Views: 1695
Actually, not quite

If the prophecy is to mean anything. The common interpretation is that "no man" did, in the end, refer to the simple fact that his final foe would be a female.

Yes, the death blow required Merry to break the ice, if you will, but for some reason, a woman was needed to deliver the coup de grace.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 7:46am


Views: 1701
Yes

You are probably right (in other words, I agree), but the qoute given is directly from the book, whereas what you say is interpretation of what happened.


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 7:48am


Views: 1617
Theoretically

Maybe you didn't read my later posts. I was only saying theoretically. Eowyn was always needed to fulfill the prophecy - as Tolkien intended - otherwise her storyline is null.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 20 2012, 1:32pm


Views: 1775
Don't forget, he was also slain pretty easy after loosing the ring

I mean, in the film he just explodes immediately - both when Isildur takes it and Frodo destroys it. I think it's his version of a hissy fit.

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Mar 20 2012, 1:36pm


Views: 1738
"Fire is our friend IN THE WILDERNESS"

It does seem to imply that only when they're in the wild, far from Mordor will fire work. When with an army or under Sauron's shadow I'm sure they're a lot braver against fire. That's the excuse I'll tell myself, anyway. Wink

"...For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth"


Asger
Bree


Mar 20 2012, 6:19pm


Views: 1724
I don't think anyone could have killed the Witch King...

...at the top of his powers. And Eowyn couldn't kill him because she was female; but when she revealed she was a woman, the Witch King felt fear because of the prophecy, therefore he became vulnerable. You must realise he is a wraith, his body is held together by his mind, fear or confusion will weaken him.

"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 6:33pm


Views: 1670
I assumed

that it meant it was there only good means of defending themselves. Hiding behind a tree or down a hill is all good and dandy, but throwing soil or a flower at a Ringwraith, in my experience, isn't much use.

On a completely unrelated note, I don't think this bit of the forums has seen so much action (in terms of posting)!


imin
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 6:56pm


Views: 1701
When do you think the witch king was at the height of his powers?/

 


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 7:06pm


Views: 1660
Not sure that makes sense

And maybe that's what imin is getting at?

Surely the Witch-King was at the height of his power at Pelennor, and Eowyn killed him. He can't have been at the height of his power at any other time?


TheGoblinKing
Rohan


Mar 20 2012, 7:23pm


Views: 1725
Movie Wise It Was Against Gandalf In The ROTK EE

I am however wondering now if maybe Sauron was channeling his power at its highest and thus Gandalf was facing Saurons power not the Witch Kings. I think Sauron sinced the momentum change when Rohan came and let The Witch King die as punishement for not being able to beat a girl.

The True King Of Mordor


imin
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 7:50pm


Views: 1671
i think

that is totally out there, lol. I think PJ did what he did as it looked good on screen nothing more, he deviated from the book which we have said what happens but you are not interested in knowing so there is nothing more to say than, i dont think your interpretation is right but its certainly one you can have.


TheGoblinKing
Rohan


Mar 20 2012, 7:55pm


Views: 1683
Actually Id Prefer

That part been exactly like the book. A show off between Gandy and Witchy been great if showed an equal footing then The Witch King leaves in rage and Gets killed by Eowyn.
I could have done without it in the EE version.
I love Pete but he has this thing not wanting to let Wizards do magic too much.

The True King Of Mordor


Asger
Bree


Mar 20 2012, 9:52pm


Views: 1661
When do you think WK was at the height?

Sure WK was at his highest at Pelennor. What I meant was that Eowyn revealing she was not a man shook his belief that no-one could kill him, no man, that is. And then he was mortally afraid.
I'm sure Gandalf could have pulled the 'I'm not a man'-bit too, if he had a chance, he's after all a Maya.

"Don't take life seriously, it ain't nohow permanent!" Pogo
www.willy-centret.dk


DanielLB
Immortal


Mar 20 2012, 9:57pm


Views: 1691
So it is Gandalf that predicted the end of the world in 2012?!?!

On a more serious note, he probably was scared. Eowyn showed no fear and he probably soon realised death was nigh.


imin
Valinor

Mar 20 2012, 10:36pm


Views: 2375
It was merry's sword

which was forged by the Dunedain of Cardolan which allowed the witch king to be 'killed'. This sword was made with an enchantment, specifically to destroy wraiths such as the barrow wights and the nazgul, which broke the enchantment of the witch king, which allowed Eowyn (not being held back by either prophecy or dark power/enchantment of the wraith) killed the witch king.

I do however think it shocked the witch king when Dernhelm revealed herself to be Eowyn (a woman) but i dont think he was thinking, omg she is a woman so will definitely kill me.

not to be pedantic but maya is spelt maia.


(This post was edited by imin on Mar 20 2012, 10:38pm)


Jim
Rivendell


Mar 20 2012, 11:42pm


Views: 2373
Don't forget...

Gandalf says to Aragorn in the "The White Rider" chapter something along the lines of "I am Gandalf the White but black is still mightier". Which indicates Sauron is more powerful than Gandalf and if Sauron does enhance the Witch King's power then there is some justification in saying at that time even he was more powerful than Gandalf.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 21 2012, 7:13am


Views: 2446
I agree...

for the most part. I don't think he was more powerful than Gandalf, but I do think he was ''in the same league''. It makes sense for Sauron to send forth someone to ''deal'' with the White Wizard, or at least ''hinder'' him ;).

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


RosieLass
Valinor


Mar 26 2012, 6:38am


Views: 2378
And they're not in kill mode at Weathertop.

They're just there to collect a piece of jewelry from a little hobbit. If they couldn't get what they wanted by fear and intimidation, they had a fall-back plan, with the shoulder wound.

If the Ringwraiths had been ordered to get the Ring and leave no survivors, they'd have all bought the farm. Aragorn, too.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

(This post was edited by RosieLass on Mar 26 2012, 6:38am)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 28 2012, 10:19am


Views: 2307
Wraiths and fear

Sauron does not specifically enhance the WKing or the others at Pelennor it is just that as his power grows so does theirs. It is due to the inherent nature of the One Rings domination of the others. The attack ar weathertop failed because Frodo fought back, he called the name Elbereth which is a terror to the wraiths and also the wraiths in particular the WKing could sense that Aragorn was a person of great power although they did not know who he was. Tolkien specifically states that the WKing was afraid after the encounter at weathertop. This information is all referred to in various of Tolkiens letters and differs substantially from how it is told in the story as told by the movies. Although no outcome is certain in combat Gandalfs pwer especially as the White is still greater than that of the WKing who's primary weapon is still as it always was, fear. Although he retained the ability he had in life, he was still only ever a man in origin unlike Gandalf who is Maia, and even with restrictions placed on him as one of the Istari by the Valar he is greater still than the wraith of a man


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 29 2012, 6:04pm


Views: 2272
Erm...


In Reply To
Sauron does not specifically enhance the WKing ...at Pelennor


someone named J.R.R. Tolkien claims otherwise.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 30 2012, 8:33am


Views: 2204
Fear was their weapon

Letter 210, point 9 states in part. "There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force."

The way I have always read that is that the WKings power as increased due to being in command of Saurons forces as Sauron increases his war effort. As the ringwraiths "...peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear they inspire.." as Saurons power grows through his action and his will concentrates on his war effort, due to the nature of the ringwraiths the fear they inspire also grows. As exhibited at the black gate after his downfall when his will no longer drives his army, even the least of his minions previously driven by his will are bereft of direction. So the only point I was making was that the WKing was no more specifically or singularly increased in type of power or will than most of Saurons servants. Due to the nature of his being any increases were more marked and he would have been much more terrifying to the armies of the west but it should not be thought of that he had any more special powers that would help him in a fight against Gandalf because in the same note Tolkien also says "They have no great physical power against the fearless." That is why Gandalf and Snowmane could face him and that is how Eowyn and Mery were able to face him and defeat him amongst other devices at their disposal (blade of Westernesse) because they ovetcame their fear of him.


(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Mar 30 2012, 8:39am)


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 30 2012, 11:32am


Views: 2200
Well...

That may be your interpretation...mine is different.


Quote
They have no great physical power against the fearless.


I do not interpretate ''demonic power'' as physical power, but as magical power. Plus, it is not for nothing they call him the Witch King.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 30 2012, 6:55pm


Views: 2175
Power at Pelennor

Yes he was a sorcerer in life and according to Tolkien the wraiths retained the abilities they had in life and I say as much in my first post. Also the WKing demonstrates some sort of spell againsr Frodo at Brunien as well as assisting Grond in breaking the doors at the Seige of Gondor but he never exhibits any "enhanced power" as people are putting it in any of his physical battles otherwise he would have used it instead of attacking people with his fell beast and his mace. The disinction I am trying to make is that people should not confuse the apparent nature of his increase in power that he exhibits in the movie with what Tolkien had intended when commenting on "demonic force". The increase in his ability to cause fear which is repeatedly explained in the books and supporting sources as their primary weapon was enough in itself to have a massive effect at Pelennor but nothing else is ever shown apart from the breaking of the gate, vso I would be interested in any proof you have that you think explains why he would have had an added advantage in combat against Gandalf at Pelennor as opposed to Aragorn at Weathertop.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 6:34am


Views: 2190
No.

I'm just saying how I interpretate things. You are the one presenting what you say as facts. So it is not me who has to come with proof, but you.


In Reply To
The disinction I am trying to make is that people should not confuse the apparent nature of his increase in power that he exhibits in the movie with what Tolkien had intended when commenting on "demonic force".


How do you know what Tolkien 'intended'?


In Reply To
The increase in his ability to cause fear which is repeatedly explained in the books[/eply]

I do not think it is stated explicitly in the books that it was (only) his ability to cause fear that got increased. Where does it say that?

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 7:21pm


Views: 2178
Proof vs interpretation


In Reply To
I'm just saying how I interpretate things. You are the one presenting what you say as facts. So it is not me who has to come with proof, but you.

I have simply been trying to dispel the myth that has come up in this thread that what Tolkien wrote in letter 210 about demonic force meant that the WKing had specifically been given enhanced powers by Sauron that would help in combat, in this case bought about by how this scene differed from book to movie. I am quoting Tolkiens work himself so I do not see how it could be wrong. You yourself implied in your original post to me that what I was sayibg was at odds with what Tolkien wrote and I have offered up my side of the argument with textual evidence not just my interpretation. I would not argue against your interpretation as that is your right to interpret things however you want. I am just saying I am not aware of any textual evidence to support it and I think you took my asking this as a personal attack where it was a genuine request because I enjoy discovering more about Tolkien.


In Reply To
The disinction I am trying to make is that people should not confuse the apparent nature of his increase in power that he exhibits in the movie with what Tolkien had intended when commenting on "demonic force".


How do you know what Tolkien 'intended'?

I do not "know" with any certainty any more than anyone else can know, and I certainly
"know" a lot less than many people who have studied his works for decades, but what I am trying to exhibit as knowledge is based on compiling what I have read on the matter into a reasonable discusdion. For example if Tolkien had intended the WKing's added demonic force to have helped him in combat against Gandalf or others we would have seen it, but once again reiterating my earlier point, those who could withstand the fear he generated were able to stand up to him.


In Reply To
The increase in his ability to cause fear which is repeatedly explained in the books[/eply]

I do not think it is stated explicitly in the books that it was (only) his ability to cause fear that got increased. Where does it say that?


I have partially answered that above, but I would ask you once again, where in the books does it say other than what I have stated. People, yourself included are using the term demonic force as an open interpretation where I am saying Tolkiens writing in no way supports this in that there is no evidence that the WKings added demonic force helped him in any way in direct combat against those who could stand up to fis well documented power of fear.

So please feel free to interpret his work however you want but don't tell me that Tolkiens work would suggest other than what I have written without textual proof to support it because your interpretaion is not valid as an argument in such context. If everying is left up to peoples interpretation then we do end up with the WKing easily besting Gandalf when he was not likely to be capable of such a thing and we also end up with 30 foot tall balrogs when Tolkiens latest writing on the matter had Balrogs as being only about 6 to 6 and a half feet tall.

I would actually be happy if you prove me wrong with textual evidence because it would mean I am learning more. I do not disrespect you or your opinion but the context of the discussion has to have some defining boundaries otherwise it becomes all about opinion or interpretation and less about what Tolkien wrote, and although he is no longer with us and we do have to fill some of the gaps ourselves I think in this case interpreting this one line about demonic force in letter 210 to mean that all of a sudden the WKing had many more powers at his disposal to defeat Gandalf is incorrect as there is absolutely no other evidence to support this opinion that I know of, so if there is evidence out there I would like to bemade aware of it.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 7:31pm


Views: 2214
You say it's interpretation vs proof...

but where is your proof then? It could be my bad but I haven't seen any proof of Tolkien stating clearly and directly that the Witch King's ''added demonic power'' was nothing more than just fear. As long as you do not provide such proof, what you are stating also is nothing more and nothing less than interpretation.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''

(This post was edited by Ereinion Nénharma on Mar 31 2012, 7:32pm)


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 7:43pm


Views: 2161
Context of reply


In Reply To

In Reply To
Sauron does not specifically enhance the WKing ...at Pelennor


someone named J.R.R. Tolkien claims otherwise.


In conclusion if you were going to base your argument against what I had written in the manner you have been you should have replaced the words "J.R.R.Tolkien claims" in your reply above with "Ereinion Nenharma interprets"


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 8:10pm


Views: 2178
Yes...

you are right. But the same counts for you. You have given no more ''proof'' than I did. You seem to suggest that my interpretation is just interpretation, while your interpretation is the truth. Not a good attitude for discussion. (Forgive me if I am getting it all wrong and you do not mean it this way)

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 8:43pm


Views: 2146
Written evidence

Nope just basing my argument on what has been written by Tolkien other in addition to that one line about demonic force, not what hasn't been written about the limitations or otherwise of the WKing's power. I only responded thus due to your initial claim regards Tolkien opinion, in that I thought you had more evidence based on what he had written not just your interpretation. Otherwise I my self could interpret that added demonic force means he could fire lighrning bolts from his eyes as an example, but he didn't according to Tolkien and if the WKing could do such a thing and didn't then the WKing is a fool, a poor strategist which is also against what Tolkien wrote about him.

I have already said I respect yours and anyones interptetation but it cannot be claimed as Tolkiens opinion as you did if it has nt been written specifically by him. What you are saying I claim as truths are only what has been written by Tolkien. If you do not beleive me please refer to the materials which I have quoted as I am nor pulling these statements out of thin air


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 8:47pm


Views: 2196
Those statements...

do NOT, I repeat do NOT, state directly and clearly that the Witch King's ''added demonic force'' was nothing more than an ''enhanced fear factor'', Tolkien does NOT say that, that is only your interpretation. Not fact.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


ElendilTheShort
Gondor

Mar 31 2012, 9:12pm


Views: 2131
No

they don't but it is not all that is written on theatyer and what else does does not support the opinion that you and othwrs had here that hos combat abolity would be advantaged by his added demonic force. Answer thos, if je was so enhanced why did he not use tjese powers in the book to defeat gandalf merry & eowyn. He did inthe movie ise them to defeat gandalf but this was pj's inyerpretation not Tolkiens canon works.


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Mar 31 2012, 9:19pm


Views: 2150
Don't...

turn things around here. I already stated clearly that it is just my interpretation, while you keep presenting your interpretation as fact. You have no more support for your interpretation than I have for mine.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Mar 31 2012, 9:25pm


Views: 3343
*readies bucket of ice water*

The temperature of this subthread is getting pretty high. The 'you think - no you think' circuitous argument will end here, or I'll remove this side discussion.

Feel free to discuss the topic of Ringwraiths, but keep personal comments out of it.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


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