The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The transition of Sauron/Necromancer from Hobbit to LOTR



adu
Bree

Jul 7 2011, 12:27am


Views: 2296
The transition of Sauron/Necromancer from Hobbit to LOTR

I still dont understand how the film-makers will show the transition of the Necromancer from a physical form in The Hobbit movies to becoming the Eye manifestation shown in LOTR.

This is coming from a person who has not read earlier books to know what actually happened to Sauron's character, which is what I suspect most of the audience watching the Hobbit movies would not know either.

I am curious to hear thoughts?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 12:58am


Views: 813
What physical form?

The Necromancer did not appear at all in The Hobbit. All the action relating to him was off stage, and all we know of that is that he withdrew from Dol Guldur to Mordor. For that matter, in the LotR books there is a reference to his having a physical form (Gollum was quoted as saying he had "nine fingers, but they were enough"). We have no idea as to what form he took in any of this, where there was a humanoid being, or the Eye, or if the Eye was just an appliance of some sort.

So, any "transition" will be entirely up to the filmmakers.






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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


adu
Bree

Jul 7 2011, 1:05am


Views: 770
yes...

That is exactly what I am looking for thoughts on. Since Sauron won't be in the Eye form in The Hobbit, what form will he take? and I wonder how they intend on showing him become the Eye, if at all, in order to show continuation for LOTR.

I dont see how they wont explain his transformation, otherwise everyone not familiar with the stories will be left wondering how the evil Sauron went from a physical form (assumption) to an Eye in about 70 yrs.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 1:12am


Views: 773
In my humble opinion Sauron was never the eye.

It is the eye of Sauron not Sauron the Eye. Sauron occupies the iron tower of Baradur the Manifested eye is one of his devices.

And yes I know what Pete said. He was only jesting.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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lurtz2010
Rohan

Jul 7 2011, 1:21am


Views: 753
Saruman says

that "he cannot yet take physical form" so I always assumed he had just been some kind of spirit thing ever since Isildur took him out but maybe it just means that he can't take physical form since the Dol Guldur battle? I hope he does have a body of some sort in the movie


adu
Bree

Jul 7 2011, 1:27am


Views: 725
hmmm

So what form do you think they will show him in in The Hobbit? Do you imagine there will there be some epic wizard battle showing his defeat and him escaping to his Tower and hence showing the transition to the Eye manifestation


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 1:42am


Views: 720
He will be what ever he wears as he is something like a Wraith (but not).

In becoming material he would be an unwraith. The cloths will make the man (er Evil Lord...demigod...).

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 7 2011, 2:32am


Views: 696
He says that in the movie.

And you have to remember he's a traitor and has been lying to Gandalf about a number of things. He may have been saying that to keep Gandalf from suspecting that he knew more about Sauron's condition than he should.

In the book, Gollum says Sauron has only nine fingers on the Black Hands, which indicates a physical form.

It will be interesting to see how they deal with it in the Hobbit movies.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Baldor
The Shire

Jul 7 2011, 2:57am


Views: 698
Cumberbatch?

Was Cumberbatch as Necromancer confirmed as a rumor or fact? If Cumberbatch is actually playing the Necromancer, I could definitely see an Annatar appearance for Sauron/Necro and I would support that.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 7 2011, 3:41am


Views: 684
Confirmed only for Smaug.

The Necromancer is still speculation.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 7:16am


Views: 614
...and only as a voice.

It is not necessary for the Necromancer to appear in any form in The Hobbit. He may, but it is not necessary. And if he does appear at all, I think it will be as a shadowy, insubstantial form. A more concrete representation would trivialize the myth.






Join us in the Reading Room for "The Return of the King" Book V! starting now!

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


dormouse
Half-elven

Jul 7 2011, 7:17am


Views: 665
I agree

I've never seen 'the Eye' as Sauron himself, just a representation of the intensity of his surveillance of Middle Earth and his determination to rule it. I think Suron himself is better unseen, or glimpsed only in part. Attempt to define him too completely in words or on film and you reduce the horror by putting an outline round it.

And Peter Jackson does tease!


Alientraveller
Lorien

Jul 7 2011, 10:49am


Views: 616
I've come under fire for saying this

but I believe Sauron will live up to his title by inhabiting a corpse. This is PJ and GDT we're talking about, they're not going to pass up a chance for zombies and ghouls. Dol Guldur has a serious house of horror potential. Just imagine Gandalf and Elrond escaping the dungeons, having recovered the map and key from Thrain, only to encounter an Elf corpse with a sickly green pallor and burning red eyes like the Eye.


micha84
Rivendell

Jul 7 2011, 11:40am


Views: 550
exactly!


In Reply To
It is the eye of Sauron not Sauron the Eye. Sauron occupies the iron tower of Baradur the Manifested eye is one of his devices.

And yes I know what Pete said. He was only jesting.



Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 12:22pm


Views: 558
Why just a corpse

He could be literally inhabitating the entire Dol Guldur as his "body". Now that's the ultimate haunted house. ;)

Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster


Jettorex
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 12:24pm


Views: 544
I think..

...if they show Sauron at all in TH then he will probably appear as a kind of super wraith. They dont need to show any transition to LotR because they don't show Sauron in LotR. As Kangi said, the great eye is just a device of Sauron, not Sauron himself.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."




Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 12:30pm


Views: 560
Unfortunately

saying things like "Saruman might have lied" and "it wasn't like that in the book" won't help us here. The point is to try to avoid creating confusion for the audience. And the LotR films did leave many viewers thinking the Eye was Sauron himself. So the question "how to explain he's not the Eye in the Hobbit" is relevant.

One way I can come up with is that Sauron is shown to use some king of similar or analogous device in Dol Guldur (the Nose of Sauron, anyone?), while still also possessing other manifestations such as possessing corpses, showing up in mirrors or taking some kind of hallucitional fair humanoid form. This would let the audience know that Sauron isn't tied to just one manifestation or body (making him more scary than a normal enemy tied into mortal flesh), and also nudge them that the Eye of the Trilogy wasn't actually Sauron.

Plus, I think we should have buried Tolkien in a larger coffin, he probably cant turn very well in his. -Rossmonster

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jul 7 2011, 12:31pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 12:45pm


Views: 536
I think the Eye is a periscope created by a combination of the Ithil-stone and Sauron's sorcery. //

 


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 2:20pm


Views: 525
I like it!

 

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 2:22pm


Views: 533
I suppose though

he will be like a " super wraith ". When he driven to Mordor I would like to see the three elven ring's power unleashed!

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 2:33pm


Views: 531
The Three don't really have aggressive powers in the books

They can preserve things quite nicely, but they're not the sort of rings you'd bring to a fight.


Scot Down South
The Shire

Jul 7 2011, 2:46pm


Views: 548
Key is in his name - Necromancer

I go with Sauron attempting to give himself a physical body through 'dark arts' hence his reputation. He only manages an 'eye' in the LOTR books.

Sounds a bit like some other book / movie franchise hitting the screens about now but everyone has taken ideas from JRRT's work these last fifty years.


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jul 7 2011, 2:52pm


Views: 511
True

as Galadriel used her ring to preserve and beautify Lothlorien. She also used her ring to protect the borders of Lothlorien and conceal her realm form the eye of Sauron. just as Elrond used his ring to protect the borders of Rivendell. If Nenya has the powers of concealment maybe this is how the White Council could enter Dol Guldur? Elrond's ring can control minor events (i.e. a torrent of water, in addition to its healing and preservation powers) so maybe it also can play a small part.

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 3:30pm


Views: 536
I may be mistaken but I think Sauron

ordered the Eye-O-Scope from The Acme Catalog of Middle-earth Sorcery. There was a special on it in 2941.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jul 7 2011, 3:46pm


Views: 483
I meant 'periscope' in the figurative sense, and I was not joking. //

 


Muireadhaigh
Rivendell


Jul 7 2011, 3:59pm


Views: 377
Yes, I remember

That was when they made the spotlight add-on part of the deal, and well worth every penny.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 7 2011, 4:00pm


Views: 383
I know you were not joking and I share your impression

but my quirky mind jumped to a Road Runner cartoon. To bad Tex Avery never did The Hobbit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Phibbus
Rohan


Jul 7 2011, 10:07pm


Views: 354
Periscope-Full-O-Fun Kit Number 7?

 


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jul 8 2011, 3:18pm


Views: 338
I'm pretty sure we'll see Annatar.

It's a concept PJ seemed to really regret cutting from LOTR so he'll probably want to bring it back. We'll also see him as he appeared in Fellowship so people REALLY get the point. He'll remove his helm to display a fair face with two fiery eyes. He has a voice this time round, so they'll probably have a chat before he flees.

I also see Barrow-wight type creatures as likely because they were cut from Fellowship and Sauron was likely to have used wights of some sort (unless his name simply refers to him coming back from the dead). Khamúl the ringwraith is almost certain too.

From tolkiengateway.net...



Quote
As speculation, it seems more likely that there was no direct confrontation between Sauron and the Istari, as their mandate was to avoid these types of direct confrontations with The Enemy, and they were not to openly use their power as Maia. So, it is more likely that the Assault upon Dol Guldur was by force of arms involving the armies of the Southern Kingdoms: Primarily Gondor, but likely Rohan would have played a role as well due to its proximity to Dol Guldur.



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 8 2011, 4:40pm


Views: 319
I am willing to bet my feathers that Anatar will not show up in the Hobbit.

What exactly would be the point?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Alientraveller
Lorien

Jul 8 2011, 5:47pm


Views: 341
A way to incorporate Annatar and the canonical (burning, black skin) Sauron

Perhaps the Necromancer uses fresh corpses, say one with Benedict Cumberbatch's resemblance, and they gradually burn up as he uses up his powers.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jul 8 2011, 5:48pm


Views: 316
Nice image, very well done.

EvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvilEvil

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 9 2011, 4:38am


Views: 1033
I agree with some posts here....with a few changes

1. Gandalf searchs Dol Guldur just the before the Hobbit, Finds Thrain and the Map and doorkey. So this why he Finds the Dwarves in Bree, setting up the Unexpected Party. (short Flashback)

2. Gandalf's many powers were on display, often in the Movies.
a. His Kinda Glowing sheildBALL that the Balrog sword could't Break through.
b. His Beacon coming from his Staff sending away the Nazgul to allow the retreating Troops to return to Minas Tirith.
c. Casting out Saruman in Theodan,with his staff and just some Finger pointing.
d. Surviving the Ball of Fire sent down from Orthanc
e. Breaking Sarumans Staff.
f. Waving off with 3 fingers ( very small gesture in ROTK....the Despair of Aragorn, a Sauron spell? that it looked like the Mouth of Saruon had put on them at the Black Gate), allowing Aragorn to Rally the Troops.
g. Speaking the Black speech at the Council changed the Weather?
h.His Transmation From Saruman into Gandalf the White in Fangorn, setting Aragorn's sword too hot to handle?

3. I want it to Be Gman, Galadriel, Saruman, Elrond, and maybe even his sons meeting At Radagasts retreat near DG...then they do descide to combine their variety of Specialzed Powers and Crumble DG to the Ground, and all we get is a Hallunicatory Shape shooting into the Sky like a Tornado and off he goes to Mordor. Along with his NINE in tow!
xoxoxOB


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jul 9 2011, 4:39am)