The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Does anybody actually like these moments in the films?



QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jun 28 2011, 2:03pm


Views: 2129
Does anybody actually like these moments in the films?

Gandalf Spinning on the floor in Isengard

Frodo waking up and calling every characters name in slow-motion

close-up of Sam's hobbit-stubble "Share the load, load, load, load"

Are there any parts you can't stand?

Also, has anyone noticed when Gandalf is talking to Frodo outside Moria "How's your shoulder?" When he says "...and the ring?" his beard goes from straight to fluffy, like he's towel-dried it?! This bugs me every time.
Unsure


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Jun 28 2011, 2:35pm


Views: 1340
It's funny what you'll notice, isn't it?

I've never noticed Gandalf's beard changing outside Moria, I've never been able to see Eomer's sword fall from his sheath, even when I'm looking for it, and I never noticed the disappearing barrels in Faramir's cave until someone pointed them out.

I'm not a big fan of the wizard smackdown, no, or of the dwarf-tossing jokes, but the other scenes you mention don't bother me at all. Some of the scenes I greatly dislike are in the extended editions: Faramir's men beating up Gollum, the skull avalanche in the Paths of the Dead, Gimli's "oops" after shooting the corsair captain.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


eralkfang
Lorien


Jun 28 2011, 3:59pm


Views: 1285
Only two…

And they're both in the Extended Editions.

In The Two Towers, the scene where Éowyn gives Aragorn her apparently abominable soup. While I like the conversation they have (and Viggo's reactions are priceless), I don't like the joke the screenplay plays on Éowyn here; haha, she's a woman who wants to go to war, of course she can't cook! It just feels… I dunno, a bit mean-spirited. I think the scene would have played just as well without the soup being abominable, with most of the humor coming from Éowyn just not leaving him alone with his soup, which is wholly in character for her.

The second is a lot of the weirder Gimli humor, like crunching the skulls in The Return of the King and the drinking game—it turns him into a caricature, I feel, and it misses the best parts of his jokes that are character-derived, like his claims about dwarven sprinting, which comes from him wanting to save face in front of Legolas and Aragorn and his usual wonderful bluster.

But ultimately, these are very small things for me, obviously.


kzer_za
Lorien

Jun 28 2011, 5:49pm


Views: 1274
Parts I don't like from the first two movies

- Nuclear Galadriel (mainly the voice distortion)
- Isildur basically comes across as a villainous bad guy when he decides not to destroy the ring (I didn't care about this until I read The Silmarillion).
- Gimli's "squirrel droppings" comment (movie Gimli has grown on me, but this part is just crass)
- Haldir's death (I don't mind elves at HD, but this is so melodramatic for someone so minor)
- Faramir's men beating Gollum (again, I'm okay with the overall Filmamir change, but this is gratuitous)

These are the scenes that stood out to me on the most recent rewatch in theaters. I would list a couple of things from RotK, but I think I'll wait to see it tonight first!


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jun 28 2011, 5:59pm)


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jun 28 2011, 7:09pm


Views: 1243
Weathertop

Weathertop, Weathertop. Without a doubt the most abominable scene in the films. What should have been an intensely frightening sequence was turned into a brightly-lit battle royale. The potential for real horror should have set this one up for success, and instead we ended up with a torch embedded in a stuntman's face...


Bound
Rohan


Jun 28 2011, 8:13pm


Views: 1279
Annoying scenes or annoying editing...

There are scenes that you mentioned that are simply odd scenes to shot and use, such as the "Share The Load"... that one always makes me giggle..


No biggest issuse is scenes that are bad in terms of editing ... the worse case of this is the scene where Merry and Pippin are escaping from the Uruk Hai in TTT. There is some really horrible editing that show the hobbits hands tied, then a horse nearly stands on them (and magicaly their hands are untied) and then the next shot is them back on the hands and knees.. still tied up...

if i was to get very picky - I could have done with out the Warg Riders attack too... what a pointless and badly executed scene...

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jun 28 2011, 8:21pm


Views: 1203
The huorn scene "Keep away from the trees"

While a good scene is edited in really badly like they didn't know where to put it...


Bound
Rohan


Jun 28 2011, 8:24pm


Views: 1147
too true...

Of all 3 movies, TTT suffers worse from scenes that were editied badly and pacing. It was really was the middle child - they didn't know what to do with it at times.

Don't get me wrong, I still love it but it's the weakest of the three.

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Jun 28 2011, 8:34pm


Views: 1286
I think the worst editing in the trilogy...

...isn't the hobbits' hands in TTT, it's Boromir's hand on and then off and then on and then off Aragorn's shoulder during his death scene in FotR. At least, I noticed that the very first time I saw the movie, but it took me several viewings to notice the hobbits' hands in TTT.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Jun 28 2011, 8:35pm


Views: 1129
Yes

I like Gandalf spinning on the floor.

I have no choice but to believe in free will.

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie

My blog




Bound
Rohan


Jun 28 2011, 8:37pm


Views: 1167
I've never noticed that...

funny how people pick up on different things...

Look lets be honest here... Continuity issues are very common in big block buster movies and I've always felt that with LoTR's it was even worse because they shot all 3 movies back to back, they shot stuff all over the place ( as in - one day they'd shoot a scene and then not come back to shoot the coverage of the scene for months on end)...

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Jun 28 2011, 8:53pm


Views: 1113
Oh yes

When you consider the disjointed way the movies were filmed, it's amazing they fit together as well as they do. And I'm sure one reason we've noticed so many glitches is because we've watched them over and over again.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!


Bound
Rohan


Jun 28 2011, 8:55pm


Views: 1096
No Doubt...

I saw very few of the Edits mistakes in the cinema...

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Wraith Buster
Gondor


Jun 28 2011, 10:45pm


Views: 1159
I like

Gandalf spinning around on the floor in Isengard.Smile. The other ones you mentioned are so/so for me. Okay, but I don't love them.

Pedich Edhellen? Lau? Hria cuilë.

End of line.


tolkiennerd
Lorien


Jun 28 2011, 11:17pm


Views: 1243
The only Part I can't stand

Is when Gandalf is coughing his lungs out in the ROTK EE. It just seems like cheap none smoking propaganda and this is coming from someone who hates smoking.


LordElrond
Rivendell


Jun 29 2011, 8:20am


Views: 1101
how could you hate Gandalf spinning???

that was actually one of my favorite moments lol


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Jun 29 2011, 10:54am


Views: 1118
You don't think it looks a bit daft?

I have to supress laughter most times that bit comes on. (The other times I supress nothing and just laugh). What do you like about it? Maybe you can sway me on this, I don;t understand what reason Saruman has for spinning Gandalf around a bit?? The usual reason is "coz it looks cool" but in this case it doesn't... it looks like an old man spinning.


weaver
Half-elven

Jun 29 2011, 2:48pm


Views: 1107
I can live with them...

Heck, there are parts of the books I don't like much...I have to be in a very patient mood to deal with Ioreth, for one -- and it took me a few readings to warm up to Tom Bombadil and Rohan in general..

Spinning Gandalf, share the load, slow-mo Frod, no, they don't bug me so much -- not my favorite scenes, but I sort of understand why they put them in there, that they were included to achieve a certain effect or something, so I can accept them. I'm more bugged by the need to do mental somersaults to explain things like Why Arwen is Dying...you can do it, but it just takes a lot of work! My poor brain can't handle it some days!

Weaver




Elberbeth
Tol Eressea


Jun 29 2011, 3:42pm


Views: 1077
It's sometimes the length of certain bits that bother me

such as the wizard's smackdown, and the Legolas vs the cave troll -- but it's mostly that those few extra seconds could have been used for something else that was either omitted or truncated.

"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Jun 29 2011, 5:42pm


Views: 1066
Oh, the Arwen stuff! Elrond's diolauge is awesome! "She will no long withstand the evil..."//

 

Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing they evidently prefer.

I'm a user. I'll improvise. -Sam Flynn, TRON: Legacy


Gimli'sBox
Gondor


Jun 29 2011, 5:48pm


Views: 1113
The only thing that really is painful for me to watch is Aragorn and the Palantir.

It's too melodramatic for me. And I don't understand the breaking of the necklace either. Unimpressed

Oh well.Cool I can stand other stuff. Arwen's dying is kind of silly but, I can handle it. I like listening to Elrond's dialogue. Makes me giggle.Tongue

Some who have read the book, or at any rate have reviewed it, have found it boring, absurd, or contemptible; and I have no cause to complain, since I have similar opinions of their works, or of the kinds of writing they evidently prefer.

I'm a user. I'll improvise. -Sam Flynn, TRON: Legacy


Laerasëa
Tol Eressea


Jun 29 2011, 7:27pm


Views: 1057
"Go home, Sam"

An oldie, I know, but the one that I will never really get over. It just goes so against the relationship that Frodo and Sam have (even with the Ring) that I always have an issue with it. If I am watching the movie in a place where I can't fastforward, then I will use that moment to get a snack or use the restroom, and if I can fastforward, then problem solved. I really have difficulty watching that scene.

Limerick in Polka Dots
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o o o o o
o o o o o o o o o

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Darkstone
Immortal

Jun 29 2011, 9:39pm


Views: 1106
It's mainly the extra scenes in the EEs that are fail.

Except for the gift-giving I can do without just about all the added scenes in the FOTR-EE. Same with the ROTK-EE, and most of the TTT-EE.

There was a reason these scenes were cut and people's complaints (like with the Gandalf-WiKi confrontation) prove Jackson's wisdom in editing them out.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 29 2011, 9:39pm)


LordElrond
Rivendell


Jun 29 2011, 10:53pm


Views: 1022
I think it looks cool

I dunno lol I thought there was something orginial about it in a way. It just shows that Gandalf has lost the battle and now has absolutely no control of himself so Saruman can just play with him and make him look like a fool. If I had won a wizard fight and had him on the ground I'd probably spin him around too.


taekotemple
Grey Havens


Jun 30 2011, 4:13am


Views: 980
I agree with you on that.

I think Saruman is threatened by Gandalf, so it makes sense that, winning the fight, he'd add a little more humiliation in the mix. Plus, spinning him like that could be effective in disorienting him so that he can't think straight. Makes sense to me!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 30 2011, 7:03am


Views: 570
Argh, yes.

That's the one that really gets me and I just can't reconcile with it. There are other changes or scenes I'm not fond of, but that's the only one I just can't cope with. It's too wrong.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jun 30 2011, 7:06am


Views: 514
I agree completely. //

 

My Website! ~ My artwork and photography at dA

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


RosieLass
Valinor


Jun 30 2011, 2:42pm


Views: 624
The only time I absolutely close my eyes and turn my head away...

...is whenever there is a close-up of the disgusting hair on the hobbits' feet.

Otherwise, the scenes I don't like just make me roll my eyes or sigh with disappointment. Cool



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Jun 30 2011, 2:51pm


Views: 642
The one part I cannot stand is

Gandalf in Moria! He had the chance to run away with the fellowship and be safe after the Balrog fell! I also dislike his whole attitude with Aragorn when he pushes him and yells, "Swords are no more use here!" and then later "Fly you fools!". For me, I find the wizard battle fascinating and fun to watch. In fact, I would have loved to see more of Gandalf's battle wizardry! Hopefully the Hobbit will be filled with it!

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


tiamy
Rivendell


Jun 30 2011, 4:39pm


Views: 566
A few more...

FOTR
- the look on Lurtz face as he puts the last arrow in the bow that will fatally wound Boromir. Something about his hands and eyes feels girly.

ROTK
- Frodo's "ballerina" fall in Mordor


Darkstone
Immortal

Jun 30 2011, 4:57pm


Views: 565
Well


In Reply To
FOTR
- the look on Lurtz face as he puts the last arrow in the bow that will fatally wound Boromir. Something about his hands and eyes feels girly.


I think you've stumbled onto something. I mean, where *are* the female Uruk-hai?



In Reply To
ROTK
- Frodo's "ballerina" fall in Mordor


I can't remember. Was it en dedans or en dehors? (I always get them confused.) Anyway, I can't fault him since most beginners tend to fall out of their pirouettes. Fortunately his little spin went well with his later speech about a wheel. Nice symbology!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 30 2011, 5:00pm)


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jun 30 2011, 7:57pm


Views: 593
The one that annoys me and the only cut i would make to FotR is....

Sam's drowning at the end of the film. Considering you've just had a hugely exciting battle scene and the emotionally powerful death of Boromir and have sat through three hours of pretty demanding viewing (the pace of FotR is just non-stop), this crappy piece of tagged on melodrama just seems so trite, so unnecessary, so repetitive (what? Another fake death?) that it ruins a veritably perfect film every single time and in fact seems to undermine the poignancy and emotional impact that Boromir's death and the breaking of the fellowship gives the film.

Dr Death


elvenhobbit
Rohan

Jun 30 2011, 8:39pm


Views: 564
The only bits I cant do with as the continuity doesnt make sense...

Merry and Pippin escape the Uruk Hai - untied or tied? what the heck is going on with that scene

Barrels in the Hideout (Faramir) - are they there or are they not? The scene isnt clear here.

The share the load from Sam - i can see why its there but it isnt my favorite scene

Frodo's wake up calling names in slow mo - why???!!!


and I cant say I noticed the towel dried Gandalf beard - I get what u mean


but thats my only qualms....

-e-

Elven by name, Hobbit by nature

'Road lead ever on and on
down from the door where it began
now far ahead the road has gone
down from where all began' -FOTR-

and through all the world has changed
the ages come and go with time
and yet those remain unchanged
unto they journey westward
over the sea...

and through it all we remain strong and true
for eternity is bonds unbroken
beyond the sea...

into the realm of TORN!


wheres breakfast?

beauty is not skin deep, it is as deep as the wish of the beholder.
fore! fore! wassup!



eralkfang
Lorien


Jun 30 2011, 10:10pm


Views: 523
Well…

Here's one at the very least—I've nicknamed her Lady Fabulous, what with her headgear and such. (They might call her Boy George behind the scenes, but she's always a woman to me!)


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 1 2011, 4:17am


Views: 564
I have to say I'm amazed...

That noone else has mentioned Weathertop. IMO, both one of the worst-adapted and worst scenes (cinematically) in the series. Close to unwatchable.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 9:43am


Views: 551
Well i don't think anyone really understands how you could come to that conclusion

The book's version is actually rather underwhelming if you ask me- taking place not in the ruins themselves but in a dell halfway down the hill, the witch king coming up and stabbing Frodo before being driven off by Aragorn just waving a fiery stick at him. The film's version by comparison was rather fantastic. For a start it makes best dramatic usage of the environment turning a tumble of ruined stones into an almost cage-like arena of pillars and impassive statues with the wraiths materialising between them, advancing on the Hobbits in perfect synchronisation- there's a wonderful shot of the hobbits giving ground against this towering wall of wraiths before as one they level their swords and close in for the kill. Frodo's vision of them in the wraith world is pretty much perfectly true to the book, and when Aragorn does come to their rescue, at least the wraiths put up some kind of fight rather than just legging it. It certainly helps confirm Aragorn's allegiance and heroism in going toe to toe with all five of them and sets up the wraith's immortality in showing them for all intents and purposes 'killed' before reappearing shortly after chasing Arwen.

No opinion is invalid of course, but i think you're very much in the minority and many (myself included) can't really understand what you could have against that scene.

Dr Death


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jul 1 2011, 1:29pm


Views: 515
I guess that just proves

Tolkien's point that he makes in the Prologue to LotR:
"It is perhaps not possible in a long tale to please everybody at all points, nor to displease everybody at the same points;... the passages or chapters that are to some a blemish are all by others specially approved."
The drowning scene is one of my favourites in the whole movie, and for me is what brings the emotional roller coaster to its necessary conclusion - because no matter what great battles may have been fought, in the end it's the faith and endurance of simple hobbits that is the true heart of the tale. I'd be willing to have any amount of orc-hacking cut out in order to keep that (although I'm perfectly content to have the orc-hacking left in for those who enjoy that kind of thing...)

Tongue

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



kzer_za
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 1:35pm


Views: 505
One common criticism of movie Weathertop is that Frodo doesn't put up enough of a fight

I sort of agree (he could have at least hacked at the Witch-king's feet), but it doesn't really bother me. I'm happy with the scene overall.


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jul 1 2011, 1:41pm)


Darkstone
Immortal

Jul 1 2011, 3:06pm


Views: 512
Similarly......

...there has been criticism that Boromir just sat on his knees while Lurtz prepared to kill him. Some feel he should have lurched forward and hit Lurtz, or bit his ankle (I am not making that up), or something, anything, in a last gesture of defiance, anything than just waiting like cattle to be killed. (Personally I've always felt that would be a bit too Monty Python Black Knight-ish.)

On the other hand others see great courage and determination in him fighting to simply keep conscious and erect as well as keep eye contact in the face of certain death.

Different strokes.

Frodo's failure does serve to emphasize the terror-inducing power of the Nazgul, which Jackson tried to show with Maggot's dog, the squirming bugs (at the shortcut to mushrooms), Butterbur's terrified cowering, and M&P's total ineffectiveness.

With the failure of his physical courage, I've always taken it as a sign of Frodo's great mental courage that he was able to keep it together and conceive of the off-the-cuff plan to put on the ring so he could somewhat dominate the Nazgul, thus they could not kill him as they had originally intended to, but instead they had to resort to turning him into a fellow wraith to get the ring. Clever, and courageous, Frodo.

I know that's just me, but hey, that way I can enjoy the scene while everyone else can't! Neener-neener-neener!!

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.


Gandalf'sMother
Rohan

Jul 1 2011, 3:34pm


Views: 493
Well

The scene in the books is genuinely frightening. It has a silent horror to it. These half-seen forms in the night advance upon the group, in a cold and desolate wilderness. There are shadows and faint screams. It is difficult to know what is happening, but it is horror. Real horror.

The film turned this scene into a battle royale action scene which has little to no horror about it. Let me count the ways in which this scene fell flat.

1. The staging is awfully contrived. The hobbits inexplicably run up the stairs to a very "stagey"arena, where they are more exposed than they would otherwise be (better to face the Nazgul in a narrower spot where they cannot attack en masse.)

2. On top of this contrived staging, you have the worst-lit scene in the film. It is nighttime, yet the place is bathed in green light and almost glowing, at one point with an almost strobe-light effect, as if this was some sort of medieval wrestling match. Really poorly lit. The lighting makes the Nazgul look absolutely silly, and the entire scene feel false and not scary in the least.

3. The subsequent battle with Aragorn is a farce. Instead of the more chilling, almost spiritual battle that occurs in the books, we get a dumb action sequence which ends, preposterously, with a torch embedded in a Nazgul's face! That Nazgul then runs off flailing like a fool.

4. Now jumping back to the wraith-world. Consistent with the book? Sorry, but the wraith world in the book was described as a cold and silent world, where the Nazgul in their true forms came into focus. PJ's version had an over-the-top cosmic wind, streaky craziness of it, loud whooshing, etc, making an already loud scene even louder, when it should have been quietly horrifying.

In short, the scene should have been genuinely scary, in a "we are out in the wilderness at night, and something worse than death is out there" sort of way. We got an amateur action sequence instead.

Just my opinion, but I have heard lots of people deride this sequence. Certainly don't get the sense that I'm in the minority on it. It was, in fact, one of the first scenes PJ filmed, so perhaps they hadn't gotten the hang of it yet?


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 1 2011, 4:22pm


Views: 504
I like both versions...

As written, I agree it's genuinely scary, and makes a good horror story. But it's like Shelob's Lair, or the Paths of the Dead in the books -- most of the horror comes from what you "can't" see, which is sort of hard to convey on film, where you have to show something. Jackson changed all of these sequences, to make them more "visual", I guess, and of the three, Weathertop works best for me. I like the arena-ish setting with the silent statues watching over everything, the synchronized movements of the Nazgul closing in on the poor hobbits, and think it helps to show Frodo struggle here, so that later, when he takes the Ring, you know he's doing it with full knowledge of what he's up against, making that scene stronger. And I'm a big fan of the Aragorn fight at the end -- he could save me from five Nazgul anytime he wants (Smile)..I could watch that bit over and over again (and have!)

That said, if Weathertop as written was one of your favorite book sequences, I could see you being disappointed with not seeing it play out closer to the book on screen. I feel that way about the Gandalf/Witchking and Mouth of Sauron encounters in the films, so am glad those were EE scenes, rather than a key part of the TE's.

And now you have me curious -- what scenes do you like in the films? Were there some that gave you exactly the book to screen experience you were hoping for?

Weaver




Darkstone
Immortal

Jul 1 2011, 4:40pm


Views: 486
An interesting thing....

…is that was Mortensen’s first scene. He’d been in NZ just long enough for swordmaster Bob Anderson to give him some quick basics, but he pulled it off quite nicely I thought.

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 1 2011, 6:49pm


Views: 524
That criticism extends to the whole trilogy, actually.

When challenged, Frodo mostly waves Sting and then falls down. He falls down a lot over the course of the story. Some years back, someone proposed a drinking game in which one took a shot every time Frodo fell down, but concluded that it might result in total incapacitation far before the end of the story. Tongue The only real exception that comes to mind is the fight in Moria where he stays on his feet until speared by the troll. He isn't really shown fighting like the others, though. I have sometimes wondered if this is just a factor of the editing; that perhaps they shot scenes of Frodo fighting but just never used them, or if they just sort of planned that others would fight and Frodo would fall. In any case, a little less probably would have been more.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Darkstone
Immortal

Jul 1 2011, 6:56pm


Views: 506
He falls 34 times.

Of course, he's just a gentlehobbit, not Frodo Schwarzenbaggens.

Still, there is great courage in endurance. It's not how many times you fall that counts, but how many times you get back up. Frodo falls 34 times, and he gets back up 34 times.

This means something.

******************************************
Brothers, sisters,
I was Elf once.
We danced together
Under the Two Trees.
We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin
And the bright silver of Telperion,
Brought forth the dawn of the world.
Then I was taken.

Brothers, sisters,
In my torment I kept faith,
And I waited.
But you never came.
And when I returned you drew sword,
And when I called your names you drew bow.
Was my Eldar beauty all,
And my soul nothing?

So be it.
I will return your hatred,
And I am hungry.


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 7:25pm


Views: 478
If you really want to make it fun

Play the drinking game and end with asking the participants to stand up. If they can stand and stay up they have officially bettered Frodo, if not then they must live in shame of falling over more easily than Elijah 'wilty' Wood.

Dr Death


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jul 1 2011, 8:28pm


Views: 477
Well your complaints are valid

But i shall do my best to defend the scene point by point.

1) There are a number of reasons the hobbits could have run up those stairs. First and foremost, just to put some distance between them and the wraiths- when people are in mortal peril they tend to think very immediately. In addition i think there's sound reasons to run up the stairs; as it stands they were pretty much trapped against the rock wall with only the narrow staircase as an escape route (which may very well have been blocked by any of the remaining four wraiths to their knowledge) if the wraiths attacked them in the bay, so seizing the initiative and heading for the top of the tower would ensure they couldn't be cut off at the stairs and provide them with more options of possible escape route (more or less 360 degrees).

2) In all performance art scenes set at night are invariably shot in wholly unrealistic levels of light so that people can see what's going on. I don't know the exact science but i believe blue is the lowest chromatic colour or some such meaning that things can be made to look dark if coloured with blue even if they're actually quite light. I must assume there lies the origin of the green lighting. It is still lighter than most nights but there have been times when i've looked outside in the middle of the night and if sky is clear and the moon is strong you can see things lit quite remarkably by the moon almost like a weird alien sunset- pale and (from my window at least) rather green. I'd argue that far from the worst lit scene, it's one of the best- i'd rather have a go at the sun-strobed pelennor even when it should be under Mordor's shadow.

3) I really don't remember there being much of a battle in the book. In the context of the film it was almost necessary- you had this huge opening piece of action and since then there's been an awful lot of running, after all of that, with the introduction of a plainly savvy warrior type you needed something of a skirmish (i think battle royale is a bit of an overstatement) to let him prove his worth and as i said before- confirm his allegience. If there was some kind of 'cold war' you'd think the wraiths retreated because Aragorn was on their side- he had to see them off good and properly to confirm who he was fighting for. The brand in the face was a kind of dramatic way to conclude the fight and show Aragorn's down and dirty practicality in fighting (the only thing i wish is that since there's supposed to be 'nothing there' physically, that the brand itself had actually dropped rather than sticking out of the wraith's face as he fled.

4) Well i suppose the wraith world is rather love it or loathe it- i think it would have been a disappointment if it was just the real world only duller with less sound- i mean when Frodo puts on the Ring at weathertop it's kind of the climax of the scene- the critical mass point- if it suddenly went quiet people would think the speakers in the cinema had cut out or something. I think it's quite fitting that when Frodo puts on the Ring to escape this horrible chaotic situation it actually becomes worse. It's supposed to be uncomfortable, it's supposed to be excessive- PJ is trying to stress that you really don't want to spend your time with this thing on.

Throughout writing this i've actually been looking at screen captures on framecaplib.com of the scene and replaying it in my mind, and i'd actually go so far as to say it's one of my favourites. It might not be particularly scary in a kind of 'classic horror' way but it's fantastically effective as a piece of cinema and gloriously sinister. It's one of the few places in all the films that PJ actually manages to achieve the kind of 'mental snapshot' iconic moments that he said he wanted- again the moments with the wraiths' synchronised murderousness, the wonderful sound effect of the kind of 'stone door opening' as the Witch King turns his head towards Frodo, the way they move- at once as solid and efficient and yet unpredictable and undulating. I've got to admit i'm tempted just to delete this entire post and replace with with a simple 'you're wrong' but i guess it's just different strokes for different folks.

Dr Death


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jul 1 2011, 9:02pm


Views: 460
I think it's hilarious and awesome at the same time.

It makes me giggle sometimes, and sometimes I think it just looks "cool". It depends on what mood I'm in.Tongue

I have similar feelings about the slow motion thing with Frodo seeing the Fellowship after he wakes up. I'm a sap for that kind of stuff, so usually some of the silliness in that scene is outweighed by everything else.


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jul 1 2011, 9:08pm


Views: 476
Sometimes that bothers me.

But I think him resisting the Witch King's grasp rather than giving in and letting him grab the Ring is at least a decent substitute for yelling something in Elvish and stabbing at him.


little mouse
Rivendell

Jul 1 2011, 10:23pm


Views: 504
Arwen saving Frodo in FotR

 


kzer_za
Lorien

Jul 2 2011, 12:42am


Views: 461
Frodo actually does fight back a bit against the cave troll //

 


(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jul 2 2011, 12:52am)


duats
Grey Havens

Jul 2 2011, 12:57am


Views: 581
Oh boy

Honestly, as far as FoTR and TTT are concerned, I've come to terms with some of the big changes PJ made. RoTK is where I finally threw my hands up at times and shouted, "You have GOT to be kidding me!" But to spare you guys a book-long post, I'll narrow it down to the Big Three for the time being.

-The Voice of Saruman
I adore this scene in the book. One of my favorites (but then again, I have a blatant bias towards Gandalf, as you will see later...).

I've heard PJ's concerns with the scene from the word "go," and to some extent I can see his point. For the sake of progressing the plot in an already-heavy movie, the scene had to be shortened quite a bit from what's in the book

But that doesn't change the fact that I found it poorly handled. There have been plenty of scenes that were shortened versions of their book counterparts, but still felt right. This scene does not. Everything about it felt rushed. The unusually fast-paced exchange of dialogue, the shotty fire effects, Grima's disposal of Saruman. Heck, even the music felt fast.

Because of how quick this scene went, it lacked power, which is probably one of the reasons why it was cut. But the thing is, I really don't believe you can cut it, because it really is an important scene. It was supposed to be a great character moment for both Gandalf and Theoden. And it should have been a proper send-off to one of the trilogy's main antagonists. And of course, it's how the Company comes to possess the Palantir. Three reasons right there, and all three benefit the story.

As it is, this scene left me wanting alot more. It just felt like a half-arsed way and finishing up that particular storyline. All you have to do is ask, and I would happily list other pointless shots/scenes that could have been omitted to add a few more minutes here.

And the way that Treebeard just mysteriously reappears at the foot of the stairs - after being completely out of sight throughout the entire scene. Perplexing.

The Mouth of Sauron
Another one of my favorites from the book. The scene annoys me for several reasons.

For one - The Mouth of Sauron himself. I like his wardrobe, and I like the helmet for the most part. Heck, I don't even mind the cracked lips so much.

So what's my problem? For one, the blind aspect. There are at least two passages in the chapter where Tolkien very clearly states, "The Mouth of Sauron eyed them" (or something to that effect, but "eyed" is used). How can you eye someone when you don't have eyes?

Then there was PJ's apparent confusion over The Mouth of Sauron's race in the Appendices, even though it is clearly stated that he is a Dark Numenorean. So a man, basically. How he couldn't have known this just confuses me.

Then there was the fact that The Mouth seemed to be more of a vessel for Sauron to literally speak through - rather than being an actual ambassador of independent thought. I don't know if this is actually the case, but it's certainly how it felt to me. It would have been nice to actually see another villain (an intelligent and ruthless one at that) without thinking, "Oh look, Sauron's talking through some dude." The voice made him sound like a brute - lacking the cruel wit and cunning of the book counterpart.

And then, there is how The Mouth is disposed of.

I know Sauron is evil, and 99.99% of his minions are evil - who have all done unspeakable, evil acts. I get that. But I'm sorry. You DO NOT kill an emissary in cold blood - especially a king (or soon-to-be king). The act itself is utterly devoid of dignity and control. The good guys are supposed to be bigger than the bad guys. Sparing The Mouth and letting his run like a coward back to safety behind The Black Gate would have been a powerful character moment for Aragorn. Even with the possibility of Frodo's death, he lets The Mouth run back to his Master and doom himself. Instead, he brought himself down to their level.

So instead of a character moment, we get another pointless decapitation, followed by another Gimli one-liner.


And now, THE BIG ONE.

- The Witchking breaking Gandalf the White's staff
Words cannot begin to express how much I hate this scene. The first time I saw it, I was literally dumbstruck. Just utterly bewildered. I've heard the screenwriters' reasoning for it, I've heard fans' justification of it, I've heard just about every positive spin you can come up with. I'm sorry, but there is no justifying this scene as it plays out.

Aragorn, a mortal, takes five Ring Wraiths to school at once in FoTR (including The Witchking). Arwen decimates all nine of them (again, including The Witchking) with a powerful river current. Yet two films later, The Witchking effortlessly breaks the staff of Gandalf the White - arguably the second strongest being in Middle-earth (second only to Sauron).

I mean, really?

The scene in the book was perfect. The imagery itself is incredible. The gate is shattered, and in rides The Lord of the Nazgul, ready to claim the city. All flee from him, except for one. Gandalf the White. Like a Western stand-off, the tension and intensity was suffocating. A showdown between two giants.

And the best part? Nothing happens. Tolkien pulls the rug out from under us and has The Witchking run off before a fight ensues. That would have been incredibly gutsy of PJ to do, because everybody would have expected a battle.

But really, my issue lies with the breaking of Gandalf's staff. The point is, we do not know who is the stronger of the two. Tolkien never specifies, and we never find out. Aragorn makes a comment in TTT about how despite The Dark Lord having The Nine, the good peoples of Middle-earth have The One - their banner. At least to Aragorn, it seemed that Gandalf would have at least gone toe-to-toe with the Witchking.

And remember, Gandalf the Grey took on a group of Nazgul in the book, and they fled from him (though I can't remember if the Witchking was present). If Gandalf the Grey can do that, imagine what a far more powerful incarnation of the character can do.

This scene felt like an incredibly cheap attempt at shocking the audience, and an incredibly ill-conceived way of creating suspense. There are ways of creating suspense without completely compromising a character. We were meant to believe that Gandalf the White was powerful. And what do we get? Nothing. He gets his staff broken and thrown off his horse like a punk.

I actually skip this scene every time I watch the EE. I hate it that much. I can't even watch it without getting angry.


(This post was edited by duats on Jul 2 2011, 1:02am)


LordElrond
Rivendell


Jul 2 2011, 12:55pm


Views: 519
the stuff I didn't like

Legolas taking down the Mumakil

Moria orcs crawling down the pillars

The sky in Mordor wasn't dark and firey enough in ROTK

That's all I can think of at this time.


kiwifan
Rohan

Jul 3 2011, 6:52pm


Views: 477
I'm very glad you didn't delete this post

because I think it is really well done and you took so much trouble going into the details. And made it easy for me just to sit and nod in agreement and not having to do any cerebral work myself Smile .... thank you!

If I had been one of the hobbits I'm sure I would have instinctively fled towards the top as well, irrationally hoping for some way of escape, rather than being cornered in this dell-whatever-you-call it. Plus, they didn't know where Aragorn had gone, perhaps they hoped they would meet him by running away. Pure speculation, of course, but ... Wink

'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'


turgon0402
The Shire


Jul 4 2011, 4:56am


Views: 514
"He turned from that path a long time ago..."

"...He has chosen exile."

I hate it every time I hear Elrond say it.


shirehobbit
Rivendell

Jul 4 2011, 5:17pm


Views: 509
this is why I like watching the movie before reading the book

because then everybody is comparing it to the book with out giving it a chance. As a fellow Tolkien Fan I agree that some scenes could have been closer to the book. But some of my favorite scenes are
Weathertop; I know it could have been a bit more terrifing for some people but come on! It was still an amazing scene and I watch FOTR waiting for that scene.
Bilbo's party; I haven't heard any bad comments about this for which I'm glad because despite the changes It's a hilarios party and I love Pippin and Merry shooting off the dragon better than Gandalf doing it.
Moria; The battle with the cave troll. One of the best scenes ever. "next time throw yourself in and rid us of your stupidity" is one of my favorite lines.
Sam's near drowning is I think, very symbolic regarding Frodo's past. His parents drowned when he was young and it does show the simpleness of hobbits.
it will take to long to go through all 3 movies but I'll say this. PJ made the changes he did for reasons only he will probably understand and complaining about it won't change that (though I do like hearing what people think). As an aspiring writer with a wild imagination I can look at both pionts of veiw and agree that there is well reasoned argumants about both veiws. yes the movies are not identical to the books and yes I'm sure PJ would have done it like that if A, he could and B, he wanted to. Not every one can be pleased so lets be happy with what we've been givin which is a very well put together and enchanting movie that has long been awaited and look forward to the nesxt one. But yes I agree that some scenes could be better done I'm sure. Who came up with Frodo falling 34 times? I never thought to count! and the slow-mo ending is the best! come on!


(This post was edited by shirehobbit on Jul 4 2011, 5:18pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 4 2011, 6:50pm


Views: 504
Arwen is dying

The last time I watched this, i noticed that all you have to do is remove this bit of dialogue and the whole subplot just disappears. Arwen's "I wish i could have seen him one last time" and Aragorn's palantir confrontation don't have to mean that she's dying, and wouldn't have come across that way if this one line had been purged. So, that fact that this subplot is so small, irrelevant, and contrary to Tolkien, makes me wish it wasn't there.


taekotemple
Grey Havens


Jul 4 2011, 9:13pm


Views: 458
I wouldn't say everybody is comparing.

I tend to read the book and see it as a stand alone, and I watch the movies in the same way. I find when I compare them too much, I end up wanting something that comes about halfway between what the book has to offer and the films have to offer, so I'll never be totally satisfied that way.

This thread seems to be comprised of people who have definitely given the films a chance enough to have watched them repeatedly, and are noticing things in the film that didn't quite work for them as viewers. I think it's good, as a discerning viewer, to look at the film itself, not comparing it to the books, and sharing what worked and what fell flat. For example, I think the whole Arwen dying thing was not explained well enough. I tend to think her connection to the ring starts when she's trying to keep Frodo alive before they get to Rivendell, but it's just not very clear. Ultimately, when anyone sets out to make such a huge epic film(s) as these are, there's a lot more room for error. I think PJ & crew accomplished something pretty amazing, though, so when I watch the films, I can usually let go of my very few complaints and just enjoy them.

I agree, btw. Bilbo's party was fantastic! It's still one of my favorite parts to watch because there's just so much detail. I feel like I want to memorize every hobbit face, like they're beloved family, friends, and neighbors.


weaver
Half-elven

Jul 5 2011, 6:46pm


Views: 414
hmmm......

You make a good point that the whole thing could have been easily dealt with by just leaving out the "Arwen is dying" reference...the film makers dropped other things, like Arwen at Helm's Deep, for example -- why not this?

I suspect that they left the "death" part in because it was tied to the plot point of giving Elrond a motivation to reforge the sword and bring it to Aragorn...leaving that out, you're left with wondering why Elrond finally decided to act. And for Aragorn, I do think, in film verse, they wanted to show that Aragorn was going on to fight, and gain the throne if he won, without any thought of personal gain for himself -- that he was putting the greater good above his own self interest, as the one person he cared about in all of this was very likely not going to be survive and be with him in the end. In that way, also, her return to him at the end is a "gift" for his willingness to serve, which avoids the fairy-tale princess sense that she's the "prize" that he was fighting for, instead.

The really frustrating thing for me is that we get hints that they did indeed have the back story worked out to make the "dying" aspect of the story credible. (I'm thinking about that trailer bit, for example, where Elrond says something like "You gave away your life's grace, there is nothing I can do for you). It seems they were trying to tie her fate to her decision to save Frodo at the Ford. Now, that kind of context would have really helped, but in the end, all we got was that she was dying, and not exactly why other than "her fate it tied to the Ring" -- just exactly how and why would that be so? Having this be the result of some action she took, like saving Frodo, would have at least provided a basis for her situation...

In the end, I sure wish they had not had to cut out all the stuff that explained this plot point...since they just didn't connect the dots enough, it's one of those things that you end up really struggling to explain, rather than embracing as part of the story.

Weaver




Curate
Registered User


Jul 5 2011, 8:13pm


Views: 454
The Wizard of Oz ending

There are things I don't care for (especially deviations from the book) but I refuse to get into the debate of which is better book or movie. Its just silly. Frankly all the parts I think are cheesy my wife (who hated fantasy until the LOTR films and now can't get enough...thank you, Peter!) absolutely loves. But the one part that I just cringe is Frodo waking up to all the fellowship walking in at the end of ROTK. Oh my gosh, what were they thinking! Every time I watch it I find myself quoting, "and you were there, and you were there...." only to receive a sharp elbow in the ribs.


loubylou
The Shire

Jul 7 2011, 1:10pm


Views: 360
The "Drinking Game" scene

For me this is the worst scene in the whole extended trilogy - it's not even funny just silly.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jul 11 2011, 9:22pm


Views: 442
Believe me,

I absolutely cannot wait until the day when/if we eventually get to see the deleted scenes, especially these ones about Arwen dying. There seems to be quite a bit more of it, so I'm hoping we eventually get to see it!

But anyway, I completely see where you're coming from, but since it's not fleshed out at all, I'd rather it had just been eliminated. But it's a minor nit-pick in the greater scheme of the movies, I assure you Angelic


Niniel Valinor
Rivendell


Nov 20 2011, 4:08pm


Views: 479
There's some...

... parts I don't like. I probably forget half of them now and they're not big enough to ruin the movies or books for me.

- I did like Legolas' character in the movie actually, but I really wish they hadn't decided to pull some of those nutty actions scenes for him. I don't really mind them as much as others, but I get why people react negatively to them. Those moments he has in FOTR on the other hand I love. Probably because it was the first movie and all new. The troll and the one arrow straight between the eyes of one orc so far away? Badass XD

- The slow mo in the end. I love PJ, but he's way too fond of the slow mo button which I tend to hate lol. Got unnececcary cheesy.

- The ents were kinda boring. I know they're slow and 'it takes a looooong time to say anything.... in oooooold entish" or whatnot. Just a little too long XD

- Elves at Helm's Deep and Haldir's death was unnececcary.

- The way Frodo falls over the edge in Mount Doom


"Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life."