The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Should UK stay as a monarchy?


Poll: Should UK stay as a monarchy?
Yes 21 / 81%
No 5 / 19%
26 total votes
 

macfalk
Valinor


Apr 29 2011, 1:12pm


Views: 569
Should UK stay as a monarchy?

I voted yes myself, being the anglophile I am, loving the English culture and all. I think if they were to ditch monarchy they would in a way lose some of their history. And to hear "the president of Britain" would just sound wierd!



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


taekotemple
Grey Havens


Apr 29 2011, 3:16pm


Views: 304
Well, the leader would probably be "prime minister," correct?

It doesn't seem like that title would change to president, in the off chance that would happen. And I don't see how they'd lose some of their history, it's still there. Perhaps you mean tradition? Because there are some beautiful traditions around the monarchy that would be unfortunate to end.

Monarchy in England doesn't have the power it used to. In many ways, it's more honorary than it once was and Parliment has more power than it used to. I went to a meeting of the House of Commons once when I visited. It only served to remind me that politicians are politicians are politicians, wherever you are in the world.

Personally, I couldn't care either way, as long as England is governed in a way that is fair and benificial to it's people. So I'm not in the yes or no camp.


macfalk
Valinor


Apr 29 2011, 3:39pm


Views: 284
I'm pretty sure it would be "president"

Though I'm not 100%. For instance, France ditched monarchy and their leader is now called the president of France.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 29 2011, 4:05pm


Views: 295
It's pretty much a monarchy in name only now, isn't it?

I mean, the Queen has some ceremonial functions, and she has the final "word" on some government appointments, but I daresay she takes the guidance of the government advisers for that anyway.

Anyway, I don't suppose the monarchy is doing anyone any harm, so why not let it be?



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 29 2011, 4:15pm


Views: 328
The U.K. is technically a 'constitutional monarchy'...

With the monarch holding no real powers, being largely ceremonial, and hugely expensive. Time for the U.K. to move into the 21st century and ditch the monarchy - at least until the Pendragon returns! Tongue

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

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macfalk
Valinor


Apr 29 2011, 4:26pm


Views: 299
To be fair...

for instance, our royal wedding in Sweden last summer cost approx. 1 million euro. That's barely anything at all for the tax payers. On the other hand, paying for the enorumous security for the presidents throughout the world, particulary the US president cost billions to fund (I remember when Obama was to recieve the peace prize in Oslo and they closed off several blocks just for security measures. That's insane!). If UK ditched monarchy, so would many tourists. There are few monarchys left in the world as it is, I think.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 29 2011, 4:35pm


Views: 315
I am being fair...

Look up what it costs to keep the monarchy. If 1 million Euro is "barely anything at all" for the taxpayers I'll make this deal. Pay me 1 million Euro up-front and I'll not take one FARTHING more (not sure what Euro equivalent of 'cents' is so I'll use the old British term for a nickel equivalent) and work tirelessly FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE for Sweden or any other nation that will have me in whatever capacity they see fit. Far cheaper than royalty.
U.K. tourism is about far more than the monarchy. There are now far more Scots living in the United States alone than live in Scotland. Same for the Irish. People want to see the land of their roots and the monarchy doesn't matter one whit. I deliberately AVOIDED the Tower of London and all that when I lived in the U.K.
There are few monarchies because despots have discovered that military coups are far more effective than trying to claim divine right to rule (the basis of monarchies). It's not romantic at all of me, but seriously, the money is best spent on the people and not on an antiquated ceremonial head that does not serve a purpose useful enough to merit the enormous cost.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

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macfalk
Valinor


Apr 29 2011, 4:47pm


Views: 283
While I get your points

While I don't agree with all that you made a couple of good points. However, if the monarchy is to be ditched, what about all the royals? Are they to be thrown out on the street?

Wasn't also JRR Tolkien a supporter of monarchy?

edit: And remember, as good as all realms in Middle-earth is a monarchy Tongue



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.

(This post was edited by macfalk on Apr 29 2011, 4:49pm)


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 29 2011, 4:55pm


Views: 325
Another point to consider.

How much tourism is attracted specifically because of the monarchy?



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 29 2011, 5:43pm


Views: 338
What happens to the surviving royals?

Harry is in the military. William and Charles can be put into the foreign ministry as ambassadors, any of the others can find work except Elizabeth herself. Treat her as a retiree and if you want to afford her a few perks that's an option but I don't see any real reason to do so.

There is nothing extant on the professor's feelings toward monarchy that I'm aware of and M-e is full of monarchies solely because that was the prime form of government throughout antiquity (with Athens and Rome being notable exceptions).

I don't expect those who enjoy the romantic aspect of a monarchy to agree with me but I'm a pragmatist in this regard.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

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Elberbeth
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2011, 7:57pm


Views: 289
It's my opinion

if you're not British, it's nobody else's business.

"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."


Donry
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2011, 10:16pm


Views: 287
Yes...and as far as a President goes...

Doesn't it depend on which type of Government the country runs? Britain runs a Parliamentary system of government right now, hence the reason for the British Prime Minister. I don't think Britain would change the type of government they currently run. When Canada officially left the Commonwealth, the Prime Minister's office remained, as it does today. I believe its the same in Australia?

What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"


taekotemple
Grey Havens


Apr 30 2011, 12:32am


Views: 260
I was under the impression...

The Shire isn't a monarchy, is it? Do please correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't recall reading anything about a Hobbit king. Given, I haven't read all of Tolkien's works, just LotR, The Hobbit, and the Silmarilion.


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 30 2011, 12:59am


Views: 266
Good catch, actually...

The closest thing is the Thain of the Tooks. If you read carefully, the Thain is derived in the same way as the first kings were, before divine right crept in. But since the Thain makes no effort at all to consolidate any sort of power, nor appoint regents to the Farthings I'd say that the hobbits do not have a monarchy but rather a confederacy with local elders of villages making any decisions that need to be made and even then it's not a formal council so that suggests more of a 'cooperative anarchy'.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 30 2011, 1:01am


Views: 284
I think that a tad harsh...

The question was posed by a Swede and when I lived in Britain some 30 years ago people were questioning the continued relevance of the monarchy - Britons were. No one has any problem dissecting U.S. politics, why should the monarchy be exempt?

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 30 2011, 1:55am


Views: 298
I think history and tradition are very important.

They serve to bind the society and give a sense of belonging.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Patty
Immortal


Apr 30 2011, 3:21am


Views: 309
As a non-Brit...

maybe I shouldn't have an opinion. I enjoy the pomp and ceremony, but does it cost those taxpayers much to support all those royals? I was looking at the inside of Buck House on TV yesterday, and all I could think about was how opulent it all was when so many in the North of England (particularly) are out of work. I guess I am just a victim of all those "Royals behaving badly" stories of the last few years, and I've come to question the worth of all that. Not for the Queen, for example--she's beyond great. But unless they are largely self-sufficient (which I don't know--are they?) I'd probably say stop with Queen Elizabeth. I hope I do not insult my British TORnsibs, cause I really don't mean to--I'm just speaking as a totally clueless outside observer.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 30 2011, 5:53am


Views: 275
I read somewhere

(Whether it was a reliable source or not, I don't know)

But I read that the amount that each taxpayer pays to support the monarchy is about a pound a year?



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


titanium_hobbit
Rohan


Apr 30 2011, 6:53am


Views: 247
Queen is still Queen of Canada

Canada still goes to the Commonwealth Games. I don't think they've left the Commonwealth.

Like Australia, they still have the Queen as head of state (represented by the Governor General) but aren't under the parliament of the UK, which they were in the past.

Hobbit firster, Book firster.


Patty
Immortal


Apr 30 2011, 7:25am


Views: 341
Is that for all of them?

The Queen and Prince Phillip, Princes William and Harry, Prince Charles and his wife, Princess Anne and her family, Prince Andrew? I'm asking, because, as I said--I'm clueless.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 30 2011, 2:06pm


Views: 240
I voted yes, but of course it's not up to me.

As an American, I'm very glad we don't have a monarchy of our own, but I do enjoy watching the British pagentry. If they're willing to put up with it, I'm glad I get to watch.


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Donry
Tol Eressea


Apr 30 2011, 2:16pm


Views: 225
Yes...

We've been trying to host the Commonwealth games actually, and I can't remember if Ontario has been given the right to host it very soon. But we in Canada are not officially part of the Commonwealth as we once were. We aren't officially at war when Britain declares war any more. The Queen appears on our money etc, however, the point I was trying to make was that when Canada officially left Britain, we retained our Prime Minister as head of our government. Canada didn't become a Presidential Republic. Canada remained a Parliamentary government. Officially the Governor General is the Queen's representative in the country but is only a 'figurehead' nowadays. That position is mostly a formality.

What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"


Elberbeth
Tol Eressea


Apr 30 2011, 3:52pm


Views: 257
In one sense you are right

Certainly here in Canada we have no problem dissing American politics! But the monarchy is pretty far removed from politics in this modern day. I think it was the word "should" that got my back up a little. No offence meant.

"There are some things that it is better to begin than to refuse, even though the end may be dark."


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 30 2011, 4:41pm


Views: 237
Disagree respectfully...

Taxes pay for the royals so it's quite political. Taxes in a country with a very high tax burden to begin with and many needs more pressing than a once-in-30 years pageant, in my opinion.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


GAndyalf
Valinor

Apr 30 2011, 4:54pm


Views: 246
Support for the monarchy...

Appears to be based strongly upon Elizabeth II:

http://theinternetforum.co.uk/node/921

And here's the numbers to suppor the monarchy:

http://theview.abc.go.com/...onarchy-be-abolished

According to those numbers it's "only" 94 cents per Brit (right around 60 pence at today's exchange rate) but with a population of just a shade under 62 million that's still an awful lot of money, about $58.28 million per year.

All that said, 72% support the monarchy while 80-year-old Queen Elizabeth II is ruling. The numbers drop precipitiously once Charles ascends the throne and even fewer want Camilla as queen. William is immensely popular but again, is it worth it? For now the British say 'yes' and that's enough for all of us, but the future seems uncertain.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


macfalk
Valinor


Apr 30 2011, 6:58pm


Views: 315
Agreed with Gandyalf:

I don't think this poll was any odd because as Gandy said, US politics is discussed worldwide, and people are comparing with every country and has done so for ages. Secondly, I am from Sweden which means this question is relevant also for me, since we're a monarchy too.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


May 1 2011, 3:27pm


Views: 201
Tax burden is low in UK if you ask me //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


taekotemple
Grey Havens


May 1 2011, 9:19pm


Views: 219
I think one thing to consider is...

Depending upon the kind of charity work the royal in question does, the tax burden may actually even out. Look at all the work Princess Diana did to bring attention to many important social and health issues in her short lifetime. Many of those organizations she supported got free advertising through her and her standing as a member of the royal family, which means that in a way, there's a trickle down effect of her work to those who were in need. It seems Prince William takes after his mother in many ways, when it comes to being active in social issues.

I suppose it really depends upon how great a sense of social responsibility any member of the royal family has, but it's not like people haven't benefitted from the work of some in the royal family.

That said, I'm not sure either way, whether I think Great Britain should keep or remove the royals. While they don't serve the political function they used to, which makes them somewhat obsolete, they can serve a socio-political function, which can be very valuable.


GAndyalf
Valinor

May 2 2011, 12:19am


Views: 227
According to the U.S. Census statistics...

The U.K.'s tax burden is exactly the same as Sweden's:

http://www.census.gov/...1/tables/11s1361.pdf (Table 1361, 2nd one on the page)

Belgium edges out Germany for the highest tax rate, both above 41%, with Denmark in 3rd at 39.4%

The lowest on the list are Mexico at 5.3%, followed by South Korea at 11.8% and Middle-earth at 18.4%.

Curious, that last, eh?

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


macfalk
Valinor


May 2 2011, 5:49am


Views: 264
I wonder what The Shire's tax burden is.

Is the mayor of Michel Delving greedy? That is the question!



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


GAndyalf
Valinor

May 2 2011, 12:26pm


Views: 225
Almost nil...

The mayor gets no salary from the position at all as it's purely ceremonial as Tolkien states. What tax burden there is in the Shire is due the landowners but as they pay no tax to the Thain the burden is quite light. At a guess I'd say no higher than 5% or so.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Patty
Immortal


May 2 2011, 7:59pm


Views: 216
But how do the shirrifs salaries get paid?

If there is no tax fund, who pays the firemen to put out fires caused by too many candles on birthday cakes? Inquiring minds want to know.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



GAndyalf
Valinor

May 2 2011, 8:09pm


Views: 252
According to Tolkien...

the post, (which the mayor is head of as well) is volunteer. He does not specifically state about the bounders and shirriffs though I expect that also to be part of the tax burden but still a VERY small cost as there never were many shirriffs to begin with. And they may have been volunteer as well since they did far less than the Post! I expect however it shook out that the taxes were quite low as the services were very low and it did not seem that even the wealthiest taxed very highly as the opulance was relatively small.

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


ElanorTX
Grey Havens


May 3 2011, 11:42pm


Views: 195
But listen,

strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.



"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."



GAndyalf
Valinor

May 4 2011, 2:20am


Views: 175
What about pointed sticks?//

 

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


taekotemple
Grey Havens


May 4 2011, 4:34am


Views: 180
I think you just quoted my favorite part of that movie!//

 


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


May 4 2011, 4:37am


Views: 181
Try pulling them out of the yarn loops, and see what happens. ;) //

 

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GAndyalf
Valinor

May 4 2011, 4:46am


Views: 192
Ummm, your siggie-pic?//

 

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


Patty
Immortal


May 4 2011, 8:43am


Views: 172
Eowyn, from one knitter to another...

you crack me up.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 4 2011, 10:00am


Views: 166
Yep, that's what happens! //

 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915




Patty
Immortal


May 4 2011, 10:06am


Views: 181
What would interest me is how many of the "no's" are British./

 

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



GAndyalf
Valinor

May 4 2011, 1:37pm


Views: 153
She's got ME in knots! ;) //

 

"Be good, be careful, have fun, don't get arrested!"
---Marcia Michelle Alexander Hamilton, 7 Nov 1955 - 19 Nov 2009

sample


RosieLass
Valinor


May 4 2011, 3:58pm


Views: 163
Exactly.

It's not really our place, as non-British, to say what they should do with their monarchy.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


macfalk
Valinor


May 4 2011, 5:02pm


Views: 175
So the crowning of Aragorn was a "farcical aquatic ceremony" //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Marionette
Rohan


May 6 2011, 5:07pm


Views: 188
I didnīt vote but...

I donīt have any problem with Monarchy.

I have never been in a country with Monarchy, so thatīs why I didnīt vote, I canīt vote about something I donīt know, but really, I have seen critics and canīt find reasons for hating Monarchy especially these days.

As a symbol, I truly appreciate it.

"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"


Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea


May 10 2011, 9:14pm


Views: 148
Why not?

Royal weddings are awesome. The pomp, ceremony and tradition are the good part of having a monarchy!


With caffeine, all things are possible.

The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.

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