The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Elijah Wood will be in 'The Hobbit'



News from Bree
spymaster@theonering.net

Jan 6 2011, 11:20pm


Views: 48160
Elijah Wood will be in 'The Hobbit'

Deadline hinted first but TheOneRing.net can confirm that Elijah Wood will step in front of Peter Jackson's cameras and return to Middle-earth for a part in 'The Hobbit' and we even know how. Despite how some fans will respond at first, the reasons are organic and natural and shouldn't upset even the most ardent purists.
***MAJOR HOBBIT MOVIE SPOILERS AFTER THE BREAK***

As readers of "The Hobbit" know, the tale of "The Downfall of The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit or There and Back Again," are contained in the fictional "Red Book of Westmarch." In Peter Jackson's LOTR films, the books are shown on screen and written in by Bilbo and Frodo and handed off to Sam Gamgee. (Not explained on film are Sam's progeny later having the book and being Wardens of the Westmarch - hence the book's title.)

The fictional book, and either the telling from or the reading of, will establish Frodo in the films, leaving viewers to experience the tale of 'The Hobbit' through Bilbo's point of view.

Since the speculation is now everywhere around the interwebs, TORn can confirm that as of now, the plans are to feature Frodo in the opening sequence of the films. It is unlikely that studio Warner Bros. or Team Jackson would change the script at this point in response to the web buzz so we may have just "spoiled" December 2012 for some, but we warned you. (And, sat on the spoiler until leaks started to appear!)

Rumors have suggested Wood is "in talks" to appear in the film but that isn't an issue as it very likely the role was discussed with the actor at the scripting phase of the films and he was agreeable to reprise his part then. It is likely but less certain that the same can be said of Orlando Bloom who is rumored (and TORn cannot currently lock-down confirm) to be playing his LOTR Elf character Legolas.

The status of other actors' whose characters would have been living during the plot line of the Hobbit, are varied. Cate Blanchett is confirmed as Galadriel while Hugo Weaving's Elrond is a prominently featured character in the source material but not confirmed. Liv Tyler's Arwen could logically be present as could other ancient Elves like Marton Csokas' Celeborn.

Frodo's return, makes it possible that Sean Astin could appear as Sam and other Hobbits such as Merry or Pippin can not be ruled out. TORn's information indicates however, that Frodo and the young Bilbo are the primary Hobbit connections between the film series.

Dwarves will play a prominent role of course in the new films, and LOTR character Gimli (John Rhys-Davies) is the son Gloin, one of one of Bilbo's companions for the journey of the titular Hobbit. Readers can view our Hobbit cast page to see the status and information on all known characters from the film.

Two very obvious absences from any press releases so far are signings of Ian McKellan as Gandalf and Andy Serkis as Gollum. Both actors are believed to be in negotiations and the studio and actors have elected not to conduct talks through the press. Fans including those on TheOneRing.net message boards, are worried about the actors' signings.

(This post was edited by Silverlode on Jan 7 2011, 6:25am)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jan 7 2011, 5:52am


Views: 37630
I knew it!

As soon as I read "Frodo will be in the Hobbit", him reading the book was what popped into my head.

On one hand...I'm not a big fan of the idea of basically forcing this story to be seen as a prequel. But on the other hand...I'm excited to see how they'll do this.

I think this could be a fun way to connect the two films and show how it all comes full circle.


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jan 7 2011, 5:52am)


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:14am


Views: 36155
Wow!

What a spoiler!

The internet was, of course, getting big when LOTR was filmed... but with everyone carrying phones with cameras, and a much larger audience this time around, the Hobbit leaks will be interesting to see in the coming years!

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


duats
Grey Havens

Jan 7 2011, 6:15am


Views: 36802
Not a fan of this

At all.

I want The Hobbit to be its own stand-alone, present-tense narrative, not a glorified Lord of the Rings flashback.

This is completely unnecessary. Color me disappointed.


(This post was edited by duats on Jan 7 2011, 6:21am)


Milknut
Rohan

Jan 7 2011, 6:24am


Views: 39828
My reaction is the same, but...

I think they'll find a way to make it work well.
I do agree, though, this makes it firmly a tie-in sequel, not a stand-alone movie.

On the whole, I wish this weren't so, but I'll live with it.

Edit: let it also be noted that I posted that I hoped this wouldn't happen RIGHT BEFORE IT HAPPENED. Talk about putting your foot in your mouth...


(This post was edited by Milknut on Jan 7 2011, 6:26am)


Junesong
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 6:28am


Views: 56004
I love it

The movies are the movies and the books are the books. A statement so true it's not worth saying.

I can't wait for these movies! With such a rich mythology and all the great juicy info we know about the events surrounding Bilbo's journey with the dwarves it would be a mistake not to use those things to make two great films.

Plus I loved the LOTR movies and I can't wait to see some familiar faces! Watching the EE behind the scenes and commentaries I know that I don't always agree with Jackson and co.'s choices but I respect that they are always trying to tell a good story and make sure everything serves the story. So I trust them to use the old characters in clever ways that aren't superfluous.

Purists will shed some tears but they'll still be in line with the rest of us in December '12

"Tim... Canterbury... Canterbury Tales... Chaucer... Shakespeare."


duats
Grey Havens

Jan 7 2011, 6:29am


Views: 39391
It just strikes me

As the filmmakers not having faith in this project being able to stand up on its own. That it needs all these superfluous LoTR tie-ins. That instead of being its own story, it needs to be a LoTR sequel (assuming Frodo is reading the book after the events of LoTR).

Does The Hobbit need to be told through Frodo's reading of Bilbo's book? Not in the least bit.

Now The Hobbit has to be viewed in the context of The Lord of the Rings, instead of it being the other way around.

Remember, from a storyline perspective, The Hobbit doesn't need The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings needs The Hobbit.


(This post was edited by duats on Jan 7 2011, 6:34am)


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:33am


Views: 44562
Remark about "upsetting the most ardent purists"

Didn't think about this when I originally post, and couldn't edit the original post, hehe.

As for "not upsetting the most ardent of purists", you forget you're dealing with Fans, MrCere! ;)

After all, a lot of the 'Hobbit purists' are not advocating simply for the story to be told as true to the text as possible (with all the animal talking and even the talking purse debate there was a couple months ago), but also in the separation of the story from LOTR. Quite a few fans- who can say if they are in the minority, majority, or if it's evenly split- don't want constant references to LOTR; they want 'The Hobbit', not 'LOTR prequel'. And that is a valid opinion to have.

I'm afraid that these fans were kidding themselves ever since Jackson was tied to the project. LOTR made little under 3 billion in theatres worldwide, and surely that amount, if not closer to double, on VHS/DVD/Blu-ray sales, and all the merchandise sales. And, of course, ROTK won all 11 oscars. Because of this, there is no way in heck that LOTR is not going to be referenced in several ways. While I am sure that Jackson and co. have quite a bit of freedom in this project, I don't think the suits at WB would let them get away with it (if they wanted to- and who is to say they do?)

Anyways, if all we see is less than a few minutes of each character that can be tied in logically, we'll be lucky. I will be jumping with joy if Legolas is only a captain in The Battle of the Five Armies and doesn't end up killing Smaug. I'll be ecstatic if all we see is Frodo and friends chilling at Bag End while Bilbo is writing the book, a one-time scene only being a few minutes long. If we hear of, goodness, Viggo Mortensen suddenly being cast, we'll be really lucky if all he is a shadowy figure turning in Gollum to Mirkwood, nothing more.

Because of the success of LOTR, its references in The Hobbit were inevitable, IMO. If we're lucky, they'll be well done, not too jarring, fit well with the lore, and, most importantly, short.

Now I'd like to hear about the casting of Bard, because hearing about Orlando Bloom's rumored return and nothing about Bard makes me worried about my "Hollywood prediction" above. Because OMG! who wouldn't want Leggy to shoot down the big mean dragon? Crazy

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 6:43am


Views: 40199
HUH?

So is this tying into the idea of linking " The Pentology" narratively? Color me confused....

So let me get this straight:

1)The Hobbit Part 1 begins with an extreme "Flash-Forward" scene 65 yrs from the beginning of the Story (the beginning of the Red Book, ie "The Hobbit"), featuring Frodo reading from the completed "Red Book" in Bag End?

2) Since this is going to a single scene, Film 2 will begin in Medias Res, just as TTT did, with no Frodo voice-over.

3) LOTR films, festuring Frodo's part in the Story, so no Frodo narration. (Unless Peter decides to change this in the Ultimate Edition, adding voiceovers sporadically through LOTR..not bloody likely, thnak God, but I'm nervous now!)

4) So Bilbo beginning the Red Book in the FOTR EE will now be a flashback of sorts? (oh my brain hurts)

5)Elijah at the end of ROTK finishing the Red Book, visually linking perhaps with the Opening Scene of TH 1.

So will we see Elijah in the same costume as he wore in that scene? What time-frame will this be in--set before he completes writing the Red Book (before that scene), so he doesn't yet look ill, etc. (Oh my brain really hurts:).

If it's just a single scene linking the Pentology, I don't see the harm in it. But here's another problem: will Frodo be using the "first-person" ? Will he be standing in for the "I"/"voce of Tolkien" establishing a different tone for TH?

Why is this needed in the first place, since the Red Book isn't begun until Bilbo returns?



On another subject--I suppose casting announcement of Elrond and Gandalf ans Gollum are taking so long b/cx these actors are playing hardball with WB and hashing it out, saying they don't want to be screwed out of their rightful share, like New Line did to them. And if any of them are in the MEAA...maybe they wanted out. after Mr Whipp...but that is a different kettle of fish...so I'll not bring that up ny more. *goes off whistling and looking innocent* (just speculation, all innocent!)


At any rate--should be interesting seeing Elijah again in the hobbit gear. There's a big difference between 18 and almost 30!

And--DROGO has ben cast?!? What have I missed? HUH!>! Have they cast Primula then too? Are they going to show THIS? Linkie to sotry and discussion please?!


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 7 2011, 6:52am)


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:44am


Views: 37547
Hmmm...


Quote
TORn can confirm that as of now, the plans are to feature Frodo in the opening sequence of the films.


Does that mean only the opening sequence? If he is the narrator, or we get cutaways, like The Princess Bride (which worked) from story back to narrator, then I'm not a fan of the idea. If there is to be a narrator, it should be Ian Holm and how hard would it have been to bring him back for the opening sequence? It's his story. It would also somewhat satisfy those fans that wanted him to play Bilbo for The Hobbit films (I don't agree with this).

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."

(This post was edited by Owain on Jan 7 2011, 6:45am)


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:46am


Views: 39690
The filmmakers, or the film's budget providers?

We've all heard of studio interference in films. Sometimes it helps films, sometimes it breaks them. LOTR was certainly not devoid of it- the prologue in FOTR exists because of it.

I honestly would not be surprised if one of the first questions the guys reading the script asked was, "How many of the original actors can we bring back?" After all, it is Hollywood.

While I imagine the filmmakers will have an incredible amount of freedom with this project- the choosing of so many unknowns in their cast, for instance, as we've seen- I can see some appeasement of the suits by bringing back some LOTR characters. The White Council only brings in minor LOTR characters, and certainly none of the Fellowship (other than Gandalf of course). As I mentioned in my other post, we will be lucky if the filmmakers only puts them in smaller parts and does it in a way that fits the lore, fits the overall flow of the story, and remains minor.

Some of you may remember in one of the EE extras how a suit at New Line suggested killing off one of the Hobbits for more drama. I can imagine a suit with a similar thought pattern suggesting to scrap Bard and put Legolas in his role instead. After all, they're both archers who happen to come from royalty; no big difference, right?

With LOTR's success, there was no way in years that there were not going to be some tie ins, some simply perhaps the guys at the studio want to make more money with the already-proven LOTR brand. Let us hope that these tie-ins are done well and do not detract from the overall story.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:50am


Views: 35702
Agreed.


Quote
Let us hope that these tie-ins are done well and do not detract from the overall story.


Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:54am


Views: 36519
Methinks Peter has been watching too much LOST.//

 

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:55am


Views: 50404
Great points by the way.//

 

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 7:00am


Views: 42176
Good point

As usual someone says what I am trying to get at, which I never evenmanage to before writing an encyclopedia. Tongue

And let me add---if gthey were worried about Ian's age, they could have had him read from his half-completed "red Book" in old age makeup in the courtyard in Rivendell! ( "Flash-forward" halfway thrugh the films, so to speak).

How can we bde sure this isn;'t just Elijah doing a really good job of selling himself back into this thing via nostalgic Peter?

(and this "for now" bit...if Frodo is going to be doing voiceovers, establishing the gentle "voice of Tolkien"/faaiy-tale vibe, then it destaablizes the narrative linking of the Pentology (I still love Guillermo'
s term for the Saga). .

Is their goal to have 2 distinct films/tales, or seek to link them? I suppose 2 distinct narrative flows, would satisfy purists who want a more childlike TH; while those arguing for a narrative linking...ugh...not sure if I am linking this idea, and I'm usually open-minded....


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:00am


Views: 51501
It would fit with the Hobbit's narrative style!

The Hobbit's narrative style, unlike LOTR's, is constantly addressing the reader. The reader is addressed as 'you' several times, and the narrator especially likes to foreshadow, claiming after Bilbo wishes he were home that it would not be the last time he wished it.

If they kept this lighthearted narrative style in the films, using Bilbo as the reader and Frodo (plus others?) as the recipients, it would certainly keep the 'Hobbit' feel many here have wished for, only in a way they did not imagine, nor necessarily want. I, for one, have always been part of the 'make the Hobbit fit the LOTR tone a bit more' crowd, so I cannot say how I would feel if this happened to be the case.

And, of course, if Bilbo was reading from his book, it would break from the continuity of FOTR EE, where he was just beginning to write it.

Though he could be telling this story aloud, and then Frodo could say something like, "You should write this down!" and... there you go. Seamless flow to the beginning of FOTR. Laugh

At this point of time, so long as Bilbo remains the star and Frodo a bit character, I'm not bothered if this happens to be the case. And the Hobbit itself can be rather dark with the goblins and the spiders and the dragon... even while Bilbo is telling the story. To Frodo.

Of course, that does not explain why Drogo would be in the films, since he died while Frodo was still young, and Elijah's a bit old to act as an 11 year old...

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


titanium_hobbit
Rohan

Jan 7 2011, 7:01am


Views: 36147
making freeman the earlier version of holmes

So, this doesn't have to be all bad- I don't think we'll have Frodo as a 15th member of the company or anything like that.

As much as Martin Freeman looks like a young version of Ian Holmes, I reckon it would be a fun way if Ian is reading the red book to Frodo and says: "I was sitting on the grass outside smoking a pipe full of old toby, when... "

fade to MF meeting Ian McKellan as young Bilbo.

Problem: doesn't Bilbo write the Hobbit when he is at Rivendell?

Speaking of Rivendell, I'm waiting for Elrond... come on Hugo Weaving! (and Ian McKellan, of course. When those two are signed I'll be very happy)


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 7:03am


Views: 38208
LOL

As a Lostie...:)

ON the other hand, I seem to recall an article that said that JJ Abrams was inspired by Peter and Co's vaqrious flashbacks during LOTR in creating the narrative style of Lost. So it would come full circle..OH GOD...Crazy


Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:05am


Views: 56044
My brain hurst as well.

I also want to keep an open mind... but this one is definitely puzzling.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


MrCere
Sr. Staff


Jan 7 2011, 7:06am


Views: 36969
You are right

It was written quickly but I should know that something will upset anybody. I suppose it was my personal bias shinning through.

I should edit it actually, but it wouldn't change the message board version anyway.

I have no choice but to believe in free will.

The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie
The cake is a lie

My blog




Owain
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:10am


Views: 35413
It would fit the narrative style for sure...

but I always find when the author addresses his/her readers it takes you out of the story. In some context I guess it's warranted. The thing is I've never looked at The Hobbit as being just a children's book (not saying you are). It's a story that matures as it progresses. The Princess Bride came to mind because it the extraction from the story to readers works. I guess that could work for The Hobbit but Sunflower brought up some interesting and valid plot holes that would be a huge stumbling block for people that value continuity.

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jan 7 2011, 7:18am


Views: 34796
Of course he won't be the 15th member...

You do realize that would be completely impossible, right?Tongue

And technically Gandalf could already be considered the 15th member anyway.


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jan 7 2011, 7:19am)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 7:22am


Views: 36834
Now I have to go home and dig out a letter I wrote and sent

back when Return of the King had just finished its run in the theaters. It was an idea of how to bring back a lot of the cast from the Lord of the Rings for a Hobbit movie. It involved a scenario where the story of the Hobbit was being told by Samwise to his children thus bringing back any or all of the Fellowship Hobbits in a giant cameo and then telling the actual story of the Hobbit as a flashback. I have long since decided that this was a weak idea as it would rob the Hobbit of its independence. Well it looks like I need to go back and study the details. It did seem brilliant at the time. Now I am really not so sure.

The biggest reason I can think of for doing it this way is to give the guys we love a chance to put on the feet again without messing up the story of the Hobbit.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


titanium_hobbit
Rohan

Jan 7 2011, 7:23am


Views: 56980
about the Princess Bride..

In the Princess Bride there is less and less narration as it goes on, so maybe that would work in the Hobbit??

TH, who's feeling a bit eeeeee about all this. Unsure


RaoulJ
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 7:27am


Views: 53606
And what about Sir Ian Holm?

After the casting of Freeman as Bilbo I've noticed that not many are talking about Ian Holm. But this changes everything. What is the point of Frodo? The only way that makes any sense (to me) is when Bilbo (old version) is reading to Frodo from the Book.

Ofcourse that would raise some questions.. As said; the first scene of LotR would be some kind of flashback..
Ofcourse it is possible that Bilbo isn't reading the book, but is just narrating the story to Frodo (and maybe some other hobbits Wink ), The scene in FotR would me a nice little nod to this; Bilbo is always telling his grand adventure, he is proud of it.

I don't know what the rumour is. That Elijah Wood will return/has been cast/is in negotiations? Or that he/Frodo is in the script? Has some part of the script been leaked?


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 7:30am


Views: 41670
I believe Ian Holm has retired from acting. Health issues I believe.

Please correct me if I am wrong as I am on my fourth night without sleep. Trying to sleep in the daytime does not work well.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Patty
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 7:35am


Views: 27697
Oh yes, I just said this in MrCere's poll in the pollantir...

he has a movie coming out next year, but most of his stuff has been voice acting for the last few years. I expect there are health issues.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:35am


Views: 27810
Heh!

Something will always upset somebody! We are Fans, after all! Wink

I do share your bias, though, so I do not blame you for thinking that.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


sharku
Rivendell

Jan 7 2011, 7:35am


Views: 50094
Relax

In PJ we trust - I'm sure he and the rest of the team, including GdT, have some nice conceits worked out. Can't please all rabid fans any of the time, only hope to placate the majority some of the time.

I was more intrigued by this:


Quote
The status of other actors’ whose characters would have been living during the plot line of the Hobbit, are varied. Cate Blanchett is confirmed as Galadriel while Hugo Weaving’s Elrond is a prominently featured character in the source material but not confirmed. Liv Tyler’s Arwen could logically be present as could other ancient Elves like Marton Csokas’ Celeborn.


No mention of Christopher Lee. Sigh.

Speaking of conceits, since 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings' are actually retellings by Tolkien based on the Redbook of Westmarch, who is anyone to say that JRR's writings were a definitive, correct representation of that book? Perhaps PJ and the team have, with the latest research, uncovered more accurate details and are committing these to the films even as we debate such weighty matters?

It's going to be a fun couple of years at this rate :)


(This post was edited by sharku on Jan 7 2011, 7:37am)


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:39am


Views: 36935
I don't view it as one, either

The Chronicles of Narnia are children's books. The Hobbit, while more 'children friendly' when it comes to reading level and some descriptions, is not. I view the later Harry Potter books in the same light.

I'll have to read her post, but I mentioned a couple things that could bring it back to being continuous- the story being told as opposed to read aloud from a completed book, for instance. How Drogo will fit into it, however, is another story.

I don't know if I'd want a Princess Bride-like storytelling for this. I think it could work, but I also think it could be disastrous. Honestly, I'd have to see it in action to really make up my mind.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Patty
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 7:40am


Views: 33300
"No mention of Christopher Lee"

I hadn't caught that. *sigh* indeed.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:44am


Views: 30964
Sort of like my unwavering belief

That Tolkien misread the details about the Battle of Amon Hen and PJ got it completely right, from Aragorn outright rejecting the Ring and fighting a gazillion orcs to Boromir's completely and utterly awesome dying words?

Like that, right?

Laugh

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 8:00am


Views: 37230
I suspect Guillermo del Toro had nothing to do with this.

Kind of like 3-D.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


guitarzankansasfan
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 8:04am


Views: 22522
The Neverending Hobbit

Opening scene: Frodo, being chased by Black Riders on the mean streets of Bree, ducks into a secluded bookstore and finds an old guy reading Bilbo's book.
"That's strange, " he says, "uncle Bilbo hasn't published it yet!"

While the old guy gets up to answer the phone, Frodo's curiosity gets the best of him and he steals the book. Frodo then runs to the local school, hides in the attic, lights a candle, opens the book and begins to read, and his voice fades into the voice of Ian Holm and then cut to wide shot of Bag end, then zoom in to Martin Freeman standing in front of the door smoking a pipe...

Ending scene: Frodo suddenly finds himself riding on the back of Smaug, shouting "Yeah! Yeah!" and pumping his fists in the air as he and Smaug chase after the Black Riders through the mean streets of Bree...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 8:06am


Views: 23238
But wasn't there a car chase in there some where?//

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


RaoulJ
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 8:42am


Views: 23912
yes

He isn't retired, but he has health issues. The new movie you are talking about, 'This side of the Looking Glass', is about an old man 'who's fame and health is rapidly fading', played by Ian Holm. So, he isn't in the prime of his life anymore.. but ofcourse we don't know what Bilbo he would play (if any), maybe the old one?

On a sidenote: The old Bilbo always reminds me of Jan Wolkers, a dutch writer, and especially the impersonation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icDqdHnbxJ0


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 8:49am


Views: 24429
Not really surprised..

I think Jackson has said all along that if he could come up with a smart way to fit some of the old cast into the story then he would... Since it's a small part in two movies, colour me interested !

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Welsh hero
Gondor

Jan 7 2011, 9:04am


Views: 22179
sniff sniff.

Anyone else smell that?

I expected a press release, this looks like speculation

http://www.facebook.com/hobbitnz

(This post was edited by Welsh hero on Jan 7 2011, 9:06am)


Imladris18
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 9:13am


Views: 30664
Agreed!

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one whose interest is piqued by this. I'd love to see our old favorites come back in creative ways. I'm not a rabid Orlando fangirl, but I'd love to see Legolas wreck havoc on some gobblins for a scene or so. I really don't see them trying to insert them everywhere possible, but rather going about it intelligently.


Maiarmike
Grey Havens

Jan 7 2011, 9:21am


Views: 29652
I like it...

I was really skeptical about Frodo or Elijah being in The Hobbit, as it would have been impossible. But I didn't think about this scenario, and it actually makes sense, and doesn't screw with the actual plot. Just a prologue of sorts. I'm guessing you'll get the historical FotR type prologue with scenes of Smaug taking the Lonely Mountain, etc., then you'll get the short intro with Frodo reading from the Red Book, then we're quickly whisked into the actual story. Can't wait to see this all come together. I think everyone has to remember that this film is being made in 2011, not the 1930's when Tolkien hadn't yet expanded his universe of Middle-Earth. But with Middle-earth later expanded, for continuity, it only makes sense to include extra elements that clarify important historical events, or show relationships between certain characters.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 9:26am


Views: 30412
I'm just delighted!!!

I'm so glad they found a way - a real, congruent way, I mean - to bring back Frodo, and perhaps more of the other young Hobbits, etc, to introduce this story!...
And my own feeling is that PJ & Co are doing it quite deliberately, not to please anyone but themselves first of all: during the 18 months spent together for the three LOTR films, most of the actors and everyone else had bonded so deeply and were so happy working together, and the parting in the end has been so emotionally difficult (those filmed last moments in the ROTK EE supplements still bring tears to my eyes), I feel they are simply bringing them back together, as many of them as can possibly be done realistically - even if it is for a short while only. If the suits too are pleased, fine, but I don't see it as the primary motivation. And PJ & team know that many of the fans will, like me, be overjoyed too!...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Kyriel
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 11:01am


Views: 21581
Well, it does make sense to do it that way

And I have a feeling that even those who don't like the idea will move quickly past it when they watch the movie. If Frodo's only going to show up at the beginning and then disappear, fans will forget him pretty quickly when they get absorbed in Bilbo's story.


Those left standing will make millions writing books on the way it should have been. --Incubus


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 11:33am


Views: 21566
Yes, actor Ryan Gage

was cast as Drogo 1 month ago. Primula should be in shortly.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 11:58am


Views: 24881
Also, what most of the nay-sayers are forgetting

Is that The Hobbit book actually did have a narrator. Why not Frodo?



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 12:19pm


Views: 30111
There will be blood...

hehe.. don't mind the subect title.

I think people will be upset no matter what. I think people need to relax (if possible) and judge the movies on their own merits. You've got over 23 months to wait and complian before you even see the first movie.

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 12:26pm


Views: 31722
Regarding purists

I regard myself as a purist, and I didn't like some of the scenes in the original movies for that reason.

I think 'purist' can be broken down into different types, though.

I wouldn't, for example, call myself a 'Hobbit purist', but I do see myself as a 'Tolkien purist'. By that, I mean, I'm comfortable with changes being made to the Hobbit, as long as they fit in with the lore, mythos and story that Tolkien was trying to tell.

So, adding bits of Tolkien lore from LOTR (and other sources if allowable) into The Hobbit would not bother me at all. Adding something in that Tolkien doesn't mention does bother me.

I've always loved the telling of the Hobbit backstory in 'Unfinished Tales' for example, and I'd love to see some of that, though sadly it appears off limits.

Tolkien himself changed things to fit the overall story, of course, we all know that. The 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter of the Hobbit differs between early and late versions.

So, if small changes are made, to allow the telling of the whole story of the ring and it's characters, from the start of the Hobbit to the end of the appendices in LOTR, this purist won't complain.

If Legolas kills Smaug, different story entirely.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Vangalad
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 12:30pm


Views: 27273
Narrator


In Reply To
The Hobbit book actually did have a narrator. Why not Frodo?

Yes, Frodo actually did a brief narration towards the end of ROTK, perhaps PJ will have him do some TH narration as well.

It's good to finally have some casting information,even non fully official.The Deadline article also suggests that 'Returning actors will need to be locked in shortly',so there won't be long before we have the announcements.



All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.


sphdle1
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 12:31pm


Views: 21703
I may have read it wrong but

I didn't get the sense that Frodo would be narrating, as it is supposed to be from Bilbo's point of view, so I think Wood is just playing Frodo in a opening scene. Hopefully that means either Holm is narrating with voice only, or is both narrating throughout and starting the movie off with a live appearance playing older Bilbo who is reading his story to Frodo and maybe Sam..!?, before it fades into the main movie...?? One can hope...this was how I envisioned them doing the opening scene/narration since we started discussing if/how Holm could play a part in these movies.

Who would like to hear Holm's voice narrating and possibly see him sitting reading his story to Frodo and Sam??


Seanwise
The Shire


Jan 7 2011, 12:50pm


Views: 42254
Re: The Neverending Hobbit

Brilliant!


In Reply To
Opening scene: Frodo, being chased by Black Riders on the mean streets of Bree, ducks into a secluded bookstore and finds an old guy reading Bilbo's book.
"That's strange, " he says, "uncle Bilbo hasn't published it yet!"

While the old guy gets up to answer the phone, Frodo's curiosity gets the best of him and he steals the book. Frodo then runs to the local school, hides in the attic, lights a candle, opens the book and begins to read, and his voice fades into the voice of Ian Holm and then cut to wide shot of Bag end, then zoom in to Martin Freeman standing in front of the door smoking a pipe...

Ending scene: Frodo suddenly finds himself riding on the back of Smaug, shouting "Yeah! Yeah!" and pumping his fists in the air as he and Smaug chase after the Black Riders through the mean streets of Bree...


Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew... Lovely big golden chips with a nice piece of fried fish.


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 7 2011, 1:19pm


Views: 21524
This is fun!

And I think you're right about the 'cast reunion' aspect of this being for the cast's sake rather than something forced on them from outside.

Of course, the success or failure of any change to the published story will depend entirely on how it's done but we won't know that until we see the film and I refuse to get angsty about it now. I have confidence. They made all sorts of changes in the previous films which would have horrified me if I'd heard rumours about them beforehand and most of them turned out fine. The ones I don't like I find I can forgive because I enjoy the films so much. For me they captured 'something' above and beyond any individual part of the story which felt so right and which still excites my imagination. I'm looking forward to seeing Peter Jackson and co. work that magic again and I believe they will. I might even say that one of the keys to that magic is sympathetic changes made in the adaptation. For me at least, to really enjoy the film I need something which takes me out of the 'I know this story back to front' position into the wide-eyed 'wondering what's coming next' which I felt reading the book for the first time.


But what I really, really want to hear now is some resolution to the question of Gandalf, Elrond, Gollum and Saruman .... and the casting of a Bard


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jan 7 2011, 1:28pm


Views: 21720
Oh. My. Gahd... No

There goes the last vestige of my interest in and curiosity about these movies.


(This post was edited by geordie on Jan 7 2011, 1:30pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 1:29pm


Views: 27332
Very interesting

I'm not too pleased about this, but I'll give it a chance. One particularly noticeable implication is that The Hobbit is, for the most part, going to be a sequel to The Lord of the Rings. Frodo is reading the Red Book after his return from Mordor, and the entire story of Bilbo is told as a very long flashback. I guess that's the filmmakers' way of tailoring The Hobbit for an audience which has already experienced The Lord of the Rings.

I wonder: will the White Council/Necromancer/Dol Guldur scenes be included in Bilbo's tale in the Red Book of Westmarch? Any other way would necessitate the interruption of the storytelling, so that Gandalf can contribute the parts of the story for which Bilbo wasn't present (or something along those lines).

I think it would have been better to make Sam the narrator, and have him read Bilbo's part of the Red Book aloud to his children. That way flows better with The Lord of the Rings, as we saw Frodo hand Sam the book towards the end of the third film, and we also saw Sam's children. Establishing a connection between the Red Book and Sam's progeny would also flow better with Tolkien's writings, as they inherited it. Since Sean Astin is older now, it would make sense for him to play the older Sam – much more sense than it makes for the older Elijah Wood to be playing the younger Frodo. Maybe the second film could have ended with Sam saying goodbye to Elanor at the Grey Havens, and giving the Red Book into her keeping... but making Frodo the narrator means that these films, as a whole, will have to slot in somewhere in between the multiple endings of Return of the King – talk about awkward storytelling chronology!


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 1:30pm


Views: 22528
That's a tad melodramatic.

Give them a chance at least!


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 1:52pm


Views: 22889
The narrator's voice

One way it could be done would be to have Frodo start reading from the Red Book of Westmarch – at first we hear Frodo's voice, reciting Bilbo's story in the first person. Then the scene fades to '60 years ago', and Bilbo's voice takes over from Frodo's. This voice could be provided by either Martin Freeman or Ian Holm (I would prefer the latter).

Also, I think 'an extreme flash-forward' is a very complicated way of looking at it. It sound to me more like The Hobbit actually opens towards the end of The Return of the King, and that Bilbo's entire story is presented as an enormous flashback.


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 2:07pm


Views: 43099
I'm for it.

I've been doubtful they could pull off the story without having a narrator, and hoped it would be Ian Holm as older Bilbo. Make-up and a chair too sit in, now that's not asking too much. I guess it could be Frodo...or both of them better still.

Photobucket
<<< There is a long road yet >>>

(This post was edited by Pipe Dream on Jan 7 2011, 2:11pm)


Daeorn Aldalómë
Bree


Jan 7 2011, 2:15pm


Views: 23774
Could Frodo be "reading" Bilbo's story in Rivendell?

So basically:

The Lord of the Rings: The Hobbit, Part 1
The Lord of the Rings: The Hobbit, Part 2
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King

Hmm, I might need to warm up to the idea of Frodo introducing The Hobbit films. I think -- and don't ask me why this would make it any better -- but I would prefer Frodo reading about this story while in Rivendell, still recovering from his Ringwraith wound -- not after the Fall of Sauron. Maybe because in The Two Towers flashbacks were already used to converge story plots at that point in the story.

Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 2:19pm


Views: 22063
Oh yes, I agree there are different levels of 'purity'

I am a bit of a Tolkien purist myself.

My comment was more thinking of the very, very staunch Tolkien purists. Many of them did not like Jackson's LOTR. I am a bit surprised that they thought these movies would be any "purer" in some aspects, such as the most limited ties to LOTR as possible. I just never saw that happening.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Daeorn Aldalómë
Bree


Jan 7 2011, 2:21pm


Views: 23882
Yes! Sam would be a better choice to flow off of tRotK


In Reply To
I think it would have been better to make Sam the narrator, and have him read Bilbo's part of the Red Book aloud to his children. That way flows better with The Lord of the Rings, as we saw Frodo hand Sam the book towards the end of the third film, and we also saw Sam's children. Establishing a connection between the Red Book and Sam's progeny would also flow better with Tolkien's writings, as they inherited it. Since Sean Astin is older now, it would make sense for him to play the older Sam – much more sense than it makes for the older Elijah Wood to be playing the younger Frodo. Maybe the second film could have ended with Sam saying goodbye to Elanor at the Grey Havens, and giving the Red Book into her keeping... but making Frodo the narrator means that these films, as a whole, will have to slot in somewhere in between the multiple endings of Return of the King – talk about awkward storytelling chronology!

Every thing you said, I agree with! Why Yoda, I am speaking like? Excited I must be!!

Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 2:24pm


Views: 22944
Honest question

IIRC from different conversations, you are not a big fan (if at all a fan) of Jackson's LOTR, especially when it comes to the script; what made you believe you would like these movies any better? It's being made by nearly the exact same people.

I would also say to "not count your eggs before they hatch" or something of the like, but you seem rather resolved. Perhaps your opinion of having interest in seeing it will change two years from now, when all the hype is afoot, and you feel 15 bucks (ugh 3D film tickets...) is not *that* bad, even if it slaughters your personal vision. Smile

Cheers, georgie.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 2:26pm


Views: 22414
We're Fans. Of course we're going to cry, moan, complain, and bicker about every little detail! What else did you expect? ;) //

 

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 2:36pm


Views: 24090
The Hobbit is not a LOTR prequel, it's a sequel

Looks like PJ and the team are viewing the Hobbit as a sequel to LOTR. And I'm alright with that. I believe Frodo will be laboring over the red book after his quest, as he writes The Lord of the Rings, perhaps looking to Bilbo's text for clues on how the ring came to the Baggins. They're probably bring back Elijah because Ian Holm is retired (?) and I can't say I mind seeing Frodo back. I guess I'm not a "purist" and think the movies will be improved by seeing old friends (as long as the cameos are done well.)

But if Elijah is reading the book after the fact, perhaps he is the one making the connections...(Mirkwood...Legolas would have been there!) I wouldn't mind a FEW cutaways to Frodo during the course of the films..but not too many. The last film can end with Frodo and Bilbo going to the Grey Havens (Bilbo can be played by Freeman under prosthetics?) and can focus on them saying goodbye...maybe with Bilbo repeating..."It's a dangerous business going out your front door...") I think it would be a great, emotional place to end the series, and would be better served if watched after LOTR as a sequel, not a prequel.


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 2:39pm


Views: 22263
Perhaps

MrCere was wrong about this tidbit would not upset the most stubborn purists Cool

As everybody else said, we have not seen the finished product yet. In fact, we have seen nothing yet. In there is also the possibility of this being cut (like Arwen in Helm's deep)

But geordie, weren't you also the one who commanded us to "scupper these movies"?



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


jarrellj
Registered User

Jan 7 2011, 2:42pm


Views: 22465
This is NOT a shock... tho is is sad.

I could not possibly agree more. But PJ has never been a respecter of Tolkien's written word so color me NOT surprised that he puts financial gain (by linking it with his big moneymaker) ahead of fidelity to Tolkien's work. I'm sure they'll find a zillion ways to rationalize it... like Faramir-the-evil-street-thug of the movies had to be that way for 'cinematic' reason. Won't make it more palatable to us 'purists' who are silly enough to favor Tolkien over Jackson. But it'll make money... and that IS their only real goal. Making money.

*shrug*


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 2:44pm


Views: 23354
PJ, Fran and Philippa Boyens are huge fans of Tolkien.

That is the truth.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 2:47pm


Views: 21720
And let's not forget Guillermo del Toro

who co-wrote the script and certainly would have removed this sequence if he thought it wasn't working.


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 7 2011, 2:48pm


Views: 22838
Geordie.... come back.... ;-)

I think it's fair to say that you already have a pretty low opinion of Peter Jackson's previous films, don't you, so It's not as if you were expecting very much. Supposing the film begins with Frodo looking at the Red Book or talking or listening to Bilbo and then swings back to the story of The Hobbit and tells it, pretty straight by the book, would that really be so dreadful? After all, Frodo must have heard the story from Bilbo, mustn't he?

Don't give up on it yet, they might still surprise you (pleasantly, of course!).


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 7 2011, 2:56pm


Views: 39543
Sequel? How can it be....

... when the last film ended with Frodo and Bilbo sailing off from the Grey Havens. There's no concievable way they can follow on from that. If this is right and Frodo is to be in the opening sequence of the first Hobbit film we still don't know what the context will be. Will Bilbo be telling him the story before the book is written (so setting the scene some time before the action of Fellowship of the Ring). Or will they be in Rivendell? Or will Frodo be reading from the book after his own adventure but before he leaves Middle Earth? Or have they come up with some completely different scenario? Or will they change their minds about how to begin the film several times between now and 2012, so that what they're intending now might not happen at all in the final film?

The one thing The Hobbit cannot be is a sequel to Return of the King (unless we join them on the deck of the ship or in Aman!)


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 2:57pm


Views: 23484
I'm not so sure on GDT.

GDT is a great chap which he shown here on the messsage boards but, I can recall that interview some years ago before being attatched to the project that he "hated hobbits, wizards and hairy feet and all that" or something similar, if someone can dig that interview up ( I think it was in connection with his movie Pan's labyrinth).

Maybe he changed his mind later on, but that's quite a statement.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Lindele
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 3:00pm


Views: 22294
Every time I come on here

(which is several times a day) all I see is whine whine whine!
I'm starting to think no one really wants this movie!!!


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jan 7 2011, 7:55pm)


RaoulJ
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 3:04pm


Views: 24892
Is it sure that Frodo will experience the story through the book?

Is it sure that Frodo will experience the story through the book? If I'm reading the post right TORn has seen the script and knows it for sure.

I am hoping actually that they haven't seen the script and they are making a guess with the Red Book. This because of strange timelines. The Book wasn't ready till Bilbo finished it in Rivendell. After the Quest for the Ring is done Frodo receives it and a few years later Frodo gives it to Sam. So between the destroying of the Ring and Frodo going to the Grey Havens he must have read it.
According to this news, that will be 'The Hobbit'; the reading of the Red Book by Frodo.

But that would be kind of strange.. It would me better (in my opinion) that the narration of 'The Hobbit' would be the first time Frodo hears the story... At the end of Lotr Frodo has heard the story (the Hobbit) a million times and it isn't new to him anymore. Bilbo even tells the little (Jackson) kids the story, so Frodo must've heard it before. There wouldn't be much excitement...

So wouldn't it make more sense that Bilbo is telling the story to (a younger) Frodo? Not reading it from his/a book? Frodo would be in awe of the awesomeness of the story...


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 3:07pm


Views: 23494
A bit too much complaining, yes //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 3:07pm


Views: 22435
The impression I got

was that Frodo is reading the Red Book in Bag End, towards the end of The Return of the King. This would mean that the bookend scenes featuring Frodo chronologically take place after 99% of the events depicted in The Lord of the Rings have already occurred, which effectively makes them sequels to the trilogy. The little-used term for a new story taking place partway through an already-published one is 'interquel' – I don't much like the word, and since The Hobbit will be bookended by scenes which occur almost at the end of LotR (as opposed to, say, halfway through it), I thought the term 'sequel' was more fitting.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 3:13pm


Views: 21755
Since Frodo is back, Strider should make an appearance as well. //

 


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 3:15pm


Views: 21697
Boromir too //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 3:16pm


Views: 22029
If you think this is bad....

...just wait until it finally comes out.

******************************************
"The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli, son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess. The ring was made in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there can it be unmade. The ring must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came. One of you must do this."

*crickets*


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 3:18pm


Views: 21887
I wonder how are they going to get Lurtz in there? /

 

******************************************
"The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli, son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess. The ring was made in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there can it be unmade. The ring must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came. One of you must do this."

*crickets*


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 3:24pm


Views: 22456
In my crystal ball

<Looking through crystal ball>

HOW DARE PJ REMOVE THE TALKING PURSE!!!!

Page

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 more


Cool



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


DarthNeeson
The Shire

Jan 7 2011, 3:25pm


Views: 40009
What I'm More Concerned About...

Christopher Lee.


Saruman would have to play a crucial role in all of these White Council meetings, setting the stage for his turn to evil. Now, given Lee's feelings about his exclusion from ROTK and his age, the last I heard was he couldn't travel all the way to New Zealand any more. That doesn't mean they couldn't set him in front of a blue screen in London and finish all his scenes in a few days. If Radagast is in, he must be as well. But will they cast a new actor or finally convince him to come back to Middle Earth?


As for Frodo, I am leary, but I trust Peter.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 3:32pm


Views: 22586
Or else...

HOW DARE PJ LEAVE IN THE TALKING PURSE!!!!

******************************************
"The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli, son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess. The ring was made in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there can it be unmade. The ring must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came. One of you must do this."

*crickets*


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 3:33pm


Views: 23293
Christopher Lee would love to play Saruman in The Hobbit

as long as his parts can be filmed in London. He said so himself in an interview with IGN. I'd be over the moon if we got him back, but at this stage I'd settle for Frank Langella. As long as they don't try to 'write around' Saruman – that would be a terrible mistake and would cause a whole plethora of missed opportunities.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 3:36pm


Views: 20916
I think he was being tongue in cheek

I could be wrong, but my interpretation of geordie's post was that he was somewhat jokingly referring to the fact that he expected all along that the films wouldn't be any more faithful to the source (or enjoyable) than he found Jackson's LotR films. I doubt that he was genuinely expressing any real disappointment with this news beyond his already low expectations.

But of course I could be wrong.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


petesimac
Registered User

Jan 7 2011, 3:36pm


Views: 24588
I trust Pete!

If we learned anything about Pete during the LOTR trilogy, it was that he (and co.) can write a good story. While I love the LOTR book, I think the films present a better story, mostly because it combines parts of other Tolkein writings. Pete left out much from the LOTR, but nothing was left out in the end; lines from deleted characters were given to others, etc, and so much was added in from other Tolkein sources. I adore the LOTR trilogy and consider myself part of the fellowship thanks, in no small part, to the "making of" sequences in the extended additions. I trust Pete to do the job well.

As for The Hobbit, my desire has always been to have Bilbo (Holm) narrate the story, beginning with him (before the LOTR) telling his tale to a young Frodo, and perhaps Sam and others as well. Perhaps Holm was simply unable to do so, and as a result the idea of Frodo telling the tale came to pass. The timing is tricky, to be sure, but I think we can trust Pete to get it right. Pete has always maintained that he wants The Hobbit to be able to stand on it's own, and I think it will. Don't you remember how painstakingly Pete went through the trilogy, making sure it made sense, that the story flowed? Don't you recall how some ideas were tried before Pete realized it wouldn't work that way, so they tried something else? Remember Arwen at Helms Deep? There were countless ideas that, in the end, didn't pass muster with Pete (and co.), and I'm sure if the Frodo idea doesn't pan out, Pete will change it.

To me, the best idea (knowing so little of Pete's thinking) would be to have Frodo reading the newly finished book in Rivendale. Then the line that "our journey didn't turn out like Bilbo's" or something to that effect which Frodo says to Sam in Rivendale takes on new meaning. Or, perhaps it will just be Elijah Wood narrating the film (as Frodo or not); those who have not seen the LOTR certainly wouldn't know any better. In the end, it's all conjecture. Many would have (and probably did) moaned and groaned about the "murder" (lol) of Tom Bombadil (sp?) in the LOTR; but in the end, all was well, and all was great, and we have a film(s) for the ages. Let me repeat, I trust Pete!


acheron
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 4:05pm


Views: 23954
We see a flashback where Lurtz attacks Itaril... //

 

For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 4:10pm


Views: 22518
Well, if we're allowed only to agree with everything...

...what's the point of calling it "discussion"?



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jan 7 2011, 4:10pm


Views: 23282
sorry

- sorry, Dormouse - and al those of my friends who expressed concern. But this is too much. This really took me off guard. The thought of that foul-mouthed young man* in another movie with a link to Tolkien is more than I can stomach. In fact, I've gone right off the idea of the movies altogether.

I'm off - I've enjoyed my short stay here on ToRn. I wish you all the best. Bye.

*I shan't go into details, because this is a family-friendly site. Those who've been around as long as I have will know what I mean.


Lord Maegmoth
The Shire


Jan 7 2011, 4:16pm


Views: 23346
Quite Intriguing

Not quite certain how to react to this, certainly not against it, but neither unreservedly for it. I believe that execution would be the key, and the extent to which Frodo shall occupy screen time. Ultimately, I can't really be assured of the viability of inserting Frodo into TH until I actually view the final product, therefore I shall adopt the 'cautiously optimistic' stance for the time being. Intriguing times.

Now I await, with bated breath, the announcement of the return of Sir Christopher Lee. Hopefully one shall be forthcoming within the next couple of weeks.


Rivendweller
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 4:22pm


Views: 24022
" the most famousest of hobbits "

was actually Frodo so why not have him narrate , or at least introduce the beginning of Bilbo's tale ?

I agree, I am fine with this and I've missed " the boys ", so I'd love to see them all sitting around Bag End's fireplace, with Sam's children on his lap as Frodo begins the tale...


There's something of everything here, The Shire and the Golden Wood and Gondor and kings' houses and inns and meadows and mountains all mixed.

....and there are Elves when you want them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.


Elentari03
Rivendell

Jan 7 2011, 4:24pm


Views: 21695
Right.

Some people have concerns about how Frodo would logically fit into the story. Expressing concern is not whining. Are we to just go ahead and agree to whatever changes the studio makes without any discussion of the positives and negatives? That seems rather silly.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 4:28pm


Views: 23632
Well... goodbye geordie.

That was strange. Crazy


Elentari03
Rivendell

Jan 7 2011, 4:31pm


Views: 23937
Agreed.

I have been supportive of casting Legolas in The Hobbit, provided he does not kill Smaug, because he would have been alive at the time and likely present in Mirkwood.

Frodo's inclusion makes me slightly more concerned about the story, but I hope the filmmakers keep his presence to a minimum and only put him in as a narrator or something along those lines. Until we see the final product it is impossible to know how this will play out. "Cautiously optimistic" was a good way of putting it.


Shireling
Registered User

Jan 7 2011, 4:36pm


Views: 21154
Relieved!

This is the news I've been waiting for!! I'm so relieved they've found a way to bring Frodo into 'The Hobbit':)


Lindele
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 4:44pm


Views: 21192
That is by no means what I'm saying

The point is, it doesn't matter what bit of news has been released...I come on here and 80% of the comments are negative, complaining, or sarcastic remarks about how the filmmakers' only real desire is to destroy this story.
I wish there was a positive discussion thread sometimes.


Patty
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 4:46pm


Views: 22125
Lindele..

Let me introduce you to a sweet lady named Grammaboodawg...Sly

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



Alex Maglor
Bree


Jan 7 2011, 4:52pm


Views: 22232
GREAT

Excellent IDEA!!

Una idea fantástica poder volver a ver a Frodo y compañia, al menos como elementos introductorios en THE HOBBIT.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 4:55pm


Views: 36557
Ah, the youth of today...

I am in his generation, so I must admit I chuckled a bit-- my mouth can be vicious at times. Different times, and a different class- he is from Hollywood, after all, and I know enough in the industry to know that their mouths can be real icky!

Best of luck in your travels, geordie. I enjoyed reading your posts, different opinion or no :) Please stop by anytime! Perhaps another board where talks of the Hobbit are not so rife? :) *hug*

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 4:56pm


Views: 21904
Must... resist... fangirl.. urge... to agree... seriously... //

 

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Junesong
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 4:58pm


Views: 22721
Seamless transition...

So I just had a thought of how they could do the Hobbit-to-LOTR transition. At the beginning of the first Hobbit movie a young Frodo (Elijah looks perpetually young so he'll be fine) sneaks "the Red Book" out of Bilbo's study and starts reading it bringing us into the world of The Hobbit adventure. Maybe we see Frodo reading it a few more times between then and the end of the 2nd movie. But the end of the second movie should come out of "The Hobbit" story to show Frodo finishing reading The Hobbit in the Red Book while sitting under a tree, effectively ending his narraration - and the camera pans out and Frodo hears Gandalf's singing - and we realize that the famous opening shot of Fellowship of Frodo reading under a tree was actually him reading The Hobbit?

Yes? Fine... I won't quit my day job...

"Tim... Canterbury... Canterbury Tales... Chaucer... Shakespeare."


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 4:58pm


Views: 21440
It's only going to get worse :)

I wasn't here during 2001-2003, but man, I've heard stories!

Fans will never agree with one another about anything, and complaints *do* tend to stand out the loudest. More people take time to write out grievances than joys, at least if online reviews are to be believed.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride, and don't take any of it too seriously-- certainly not seriously enough to shout ;)

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Eärwen Swan Maiden Of Alqualondë
Bree


Jan 7 2011, 5:05pm


Views: 20789
I have to be honest

I really can't find any way to be upset at this. It just makes me feel all warm and happy inside.Evil And I am someone who read all the books first, many times, starting in early childhood, and had a very strong attachment and respect for all things Tolkien long before the movies appeared. But this just feels right to me.



Peek-A-Boo!


hamlet
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 5:13pm


Views: 22351
You are correct, sir!

I love the books AND the movies! While it's fair to say that I found some of the changes in LOTR jarring, I was never offended by them as some folks seem to be. I have a distinct memory of seeing FOTR for the first time and thinking, "Boy, they got out of the Shire awful fast," but upon repeated viewings of the film, I came to understand the logic of compressing the time-frame of the early chapters. I've written stage adaptations of literary works, and even though I have to make changes to fit the constraints of a different medium, I always do it with the utmost affection for the original source material. I think it's clear if one listens to the DVD commentary tracks that Peter, Fran, and Phiippa feel the same way. I MAINTAIN THAT ONE CAN BE A "PURIST" AND STILL LOVE THE FILMS!! I am, I do, and I am confident that come December 2012, I will!!


moreorless
Gondor

Jan 7 2011, 5:15pm


Views: 23439
What I thought from the start...

As soon as the rumours of the film being made started to appear the Red Book being read as a framing device by an old Bilbo/Frodo/Sam was the first thing I thought of.

Looking to bring back LOTR characters is one way to look at it but another is as you say to allow for a more direct adaptation of the Hobbit with a marked change in tone from LOTR. By altering the presentation of the films you can also alter the audiences expectations, no longer are they seeing the direct gritter view of ME from LOTR but rather a single Hobbits perspective of it.


Mithrandír
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 5:22pm


Views: 20979
Great narrating

I think Frodo being a kind of narrator in the start and perhaps one or two times during the plot, for instance changing the perspective to gandalvs part in the events taking place during bilbos adventure, the white council, the necromancer etc, will work really really well!

Imo it's keeping with Tolkien, it's necessary to link the hobbit film with the lotr, and this handle is as good as any other imo. PJ has said before that he views the hobbit and lotr as a continuous story in movie terms. anyway, if the frodo-news is true there is little point disagreeing, seeing as it's gonna happen anyway.

Social Science's biggest problem, is social science.



"The ring has awoken. It's heard its masters call"



Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 5:22pm


Views: 23186
I think that statement was taken out of context.

This is what Guillermo had to say on the subject back around the time when he first started posting here:

Quote
I have read Moorcock, Clark Ashton Smith, Lord Dunsany, Lloyd Alexander, Fritz Leiber and a few others. At the age of 11 I read THE HOBBIT and it enchanted me as only a classic Fairy Tale can- it had enough darkness and dread and emotion to make a profound impression that lasted me until now. Beorn, Mirkwood, the Wargs, Smaug, the Riddles in the Dark, they all have lived in me for many years...

Nevertheless at that early age, the rest of Tolkien proved to contain Geography and Genealogy too complex for my prepubescent brain...

[..]

As if he grasped an existing universe outside our Platonic cave, Tolkien channels an entire world, weaving expertly from myth and lore. The oustanding virtue is that all this scholarly erudition doesn't reduce his tales to mere Taxidermy. He achieves an Alchemy all of his own: he writes new life in the freshly sculpted clay of his creatures.

I have, through the years become familiar with the very roots of Tolkien's myths and the roots of Fafhrd or Elric or Hyperborea and many a time I have relished the intricate ways in which demonic wolves, shape-shifter and spindly-limbed pale warriors can be woven into those many tales that become, at the end, the single tale, the single saga- that of what is immortal in us all.

In creating Pan's Labyrinth I drank deep of the most rigid form of Fairy Lore and tried to contextualize the main recurrent motifs in an instinctive rhyme between the world of fantasy and the delusions of War and Politics (the grown man's way of playing make-believe) and in re-reading THE HOBBIT just recently I was quite moved by discovering, through Bilbo's eyes the illusory nature of possession, the sins of hoarding and the banality of war- whether in the Western Front or at a Valley in Middle Earth. Lonely is the mountain indeed.


http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum.cgi?post=92296

Reading him talk about Tolkien's work so enthusiastically makes me doubtful of that single statement he made in that interview several years ago, when he said that he hated hairy feet or something like that. To be honest, I'd be even more inclined to trust del Toro with Tolkien's work than I would be to trust Jackson.


xy
Rohan

Jan 7 2011, 5:22pm


Views: 23483
without even reading ...

I was hoping for less LOTR reunions. First Legolas and now Frodo. Saruman would be the one logical choice, yet we got more Radagast evidently.

Was he even born at the time of the Hobbit ? He was 33 when Bilbo was having his 111th birthday, minus 60 years between LOTR and the Hobbit...


KingofAncients
The Shire


Jan 7 2011, 5:24pm


Views: 20746
Frank Langella as Saruman....

Flagg I have to admit that I didn't know who this "Frank Langella" you mentioned was, call me uncivilized or uncultured or whatever you like but, at any rate I decided to check him out on youtube.

WOW! I agree with you 100% if someone is going to replace the legendary Christopher Lee as Saruman I am now convinced it must be Frank Langella! Not only is his voice superb (and eerily similar to Lee's) but, he actually LOOKS like him too! That's craziness. You have made a believer of me, just throw Saruman prosthetics on him and we're good to hook for a more vibrant/active/less evil Saruman who helps kick Necromancer @$$ in these two films!

"Stout men and lordly they are, and the Riders of Rohan look almost as boys beside them; for they are grim men of face, worn like weathered rocks for the most part, even as Aragorn himself; and they are silent."


Mithrandír
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 5:24pm


Views: 37440
Hear hear!

 

Social Science's biggest problem, is social science.



"The ring has awoken. It's heard its masters call"



Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 5:26pm


Views: 23697
No, he was nor born

But as the post said... he would not be around at the time of Bilbo's adventure. Someone mentioned "Princess Bride", and while I doubt it will be exactly like Princess Bride, I can imagine it being something like that.

It would certainly fit the Hobbit's lighter tone, being told from the point of view of Bilbo with Frodo listening, substituting Tolkien's unnamed, fourth-wall-breaking narrative voice and the reader.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 5:32pm


Views: 22331
It wasn't my idea

We've been talking about the possibility of Frank Langella playing Saruman for a good while now, and I sort of took it for granted that everyone would know who I was talking about. I think duats was the first one who came up with the idea, but I'm not completely certain.


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 5:35pm


Views: 20993
Langella

Some months ago I thought no, absolutely not. But as I have sort of given up on the hopes of sir C reprising Saruman, this Langella fellow looks like an OK replacement. It will never be as good as the original, but it should work.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 5:37pm


Views: 23086
Lindele

I think both you and RosieLass has fair points.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 5:39pm


Views: 22053
Financial gain first?

I'm sorry, I don't see that at all.

Clearly the films have to make money, there's no question about that. The studios would not bother were that not the case.

Watching all the appendices on the EE editions many times, though, there are few, if any people involved in making those films who I feel were putting financial gain first. The overriding impression I get from everyone, from the writers, art design, WETA, music, actors, everyone, was the love of the project, and of Tolkien.

The Hobbit and LOTR are inextricably linked. Not just in the ring, Gollum, Gandalf and so on, but the White council, and even the importance of Smaug not becoming a weapon for Sauron, these and many other events tie the two books, and the two sets of films together.

It would have been wonderful if Jackson could have made the Hobbit and then gone on to LOTR. He didn't, but I see no problem in him in tweaking things slightly to make the progression from one set of films to the other a little easier, as if he had done that.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 5:42pm


Views: 23852
Agree with duats...

This just seems like a bad move to cash-in on the success of the original trilogy, (a lot like how Christopher Nolan's third Batman will now be called "The Dark Knight Rises"), for obvious reasons. Very disappointed with this news...

Samuel L. Jackson for Bilbo, Woody Allen for Thorin, Lewis Black for Bard and Gilbert Gottfried for Smaug!

MAKE IT HAPPEN, PETER!!!


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 5:47pm


Views: 22028
Red Book reading

Flagg, there is no reason why Frodo could not be reading the Red book prior to the events of LOTR, is there? He could even be reading an early version of the book, before Bilbo adds the finishing touches?

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 5:50pm


Views: 38864
Lee as Saruman

Some way of including Chris Lee is my biggest hope, assuming McKellan and Serkis join, naturally.

I suspect Lee might be amenable if some blue screen work could be done. He is a huge Tolkien fan, and I think adding to his body of work as the Definitive Saruman might appeal to him.

Fingers crossed!

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


DrDeath153
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 5:52pm


Views: 23225
As good a way as any

While i'm not enamoured with the idea of framing The Hobbit within the strict bounds of the existing Lord of the Rings films, which i would have preferred them to build up to on their own terms- consistent with and exploring events within the timeline only revealed in the latter book but nevertheless standing well enough alone, the 'let me tell you a story' format has always been on the cards and to be fair will likely work well enough. It's also a far better way of featuring LotR cast cameos than compressing the timeline by half a century (that said, given the existing compression i consider it entirely possible to show Aragorn and Arwen's first meeting within the narrative of the Hobbit).

So yeah, basically i'm non-plussed about it all. If that turned out to be the film's biggest sin then we could all breathe a sign of relief.

Dr Death


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 5:59pm


Views: 22668
No conclusive reason.

I got the impression that the bookend scenes would be set towards the end of Return of the King, around the scene where Frodo is writing in the Red Book in his study in Bag End. The earlier they set the scene, the harder it will be to make Elijah Wood look the right age. I suppose they could set the scenes before Lord of the Rings if they really wanted to, but for the purposes of my speculations I assumed that the scenes would be after Frodo's quest.


Daeorn Aldalómë
Bree


Jan 7 2011, 6:01pm


Views: 21675
I like it!!


Quote
So I just had a thought of how they could do the Hobbit-to-LOTR transition. At the beginning of the first Hobbit movie a young Frodo (Elijah looks perpetually young so he'll be fine) sneaks "the Red Book" out of Bilbo's study and starts reading it bringing us into the world of The Hobbit adventure. Maybe we see Frodo reading it a few more times between then and the end of the 2nd movie. But the end of the second movie should come out of "The Hobbit" story to show Frodo finishing reading The Hobbit in the Red Book while sitting under a tree, effectively ending his narraration - and the camera pans out and Frodo hears Gandalf's singing - and we realize that the famous opening shot of Fellowship of Frodo reading under a tree was actually him reading The Hobbit?

Wow! Great idea! I think that could work! Man, I'm excited!

Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 6:06pm


Views: 22506
No probs

It just seems to me that Frodo reading that book could theoretically occur anytime between Bilbo adopting him and the Grey Havens, although clearly Frodo is too young for Wood to play him at the start of that time.

A mechanism that could be used, were the timeframe for the reading to be set, say 15 years before FOTR, might allow us to see other events we know happened, and the brief introduction of other characters or story fills. That sort of thing really would not surprise me.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi

(This post was edited by Bran on Jan 7 2011, 6:07pm)


LoremIpsum
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 6:09pm


Views: 22229
Great news if true

I have no problem with this at all, especially if we get to see Ian Holm in there too (hopefully)HeartEvil


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 6:11pm


Views: 21816
Not so much positive or negative,

to me at least, most comments seem sideways or neutral around here. With every bit of confirmed news -- regardless of what may have been said when an item was just rumoured -- the general consensus defaults to "we trust the film makers/writers." Again to me, this indicates that most everyone here does in fact want these films to be made. (One might add, "at any cost" but that is an over simplification of our collective true feelings on the matter. A fandom we are and a fandom we shall remain.)

For instance, the idea that the films would be structured as if read from a book (Bilbo's book) was first floated here when the bridge film concept was still on the table. IIRC Guillermo himself participated in a thread where that was being discussed (though hovering at the edge of actually spilling the beans, as was his way). At the time there seemed to be general agreement that this was an acceptable, if not desirable, approach to bringing in some characters from LOTR that are not mentioned (which is not the same as did not exist) in The Hobbit and/or the period between the two tales.

As for the joking around that goes on here (such as my recent comment: "Itaril of the Ewok Realm"), for the most part, it is not intended to be negative. It is a way of celebrating our shared interests.

edit: to break up post


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 7 2011, 6:16pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 6:18pm


Views: 21439
Agreed

but not simply because of the age issue...

The period between Frodo and co's return to the Shire and Frodo's departure to Valinor (about 4 years at the end of ROTK) seems the most likely place for the Red Book of the Westmarch to be visited; a time when Frodo would be writing about his adventures, at times reading what Bilbo wrote, and at times connecting the dots between the two tales and filling in the gaps.

Alternately they might go beyond that time and incorporate what Sam wrote and of (correct me if I'm wrong) Aragorn's death and Legolas and Gimli's departure for Valinor. Of the two approaches I favour the first, even more so than the idea of Bilbo spinning his tale of "The Hobbit" in a time just before LOTR, or at Rivendell.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 7 2011, 6:22pm)


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 6:25pm


Views: 22039
Sorry.

I'm just tetchy about it.

The TORN boards are great, but there was a time back during the years the LOTR films were being made and released when I stopped visiting for a long time because there was a loudmouthed minority who made it very clear that any dissenting opinion was unwelcome, and I got tired of being told to shut up and go away any time I expressed any disappointment over anything Peter Jackson did.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Jettorex
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 6:30pm


Views: 23503
What happens to....

"In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit" beginning to the Hobbit Movie? Is that off the table now? or will Frodo now say these words?

I always thought that it would be a great way to start the movie, just like the book.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."





Daeorn Aldalómë
Bree


Jan 7 2011, 6:34pm


Views: 21337
Especially since...

...the whole series ends with Sam's "Well, I'm back."



The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 6:38pm


Views: 55890
I knew as soon as they started announcing cameos that I'd get addicted.//

 


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 6:38pm


Views: 23374
That depends

Did Bilbo write his memoirs in the third person, beginning with 'In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit'? Or did he write them in the first person, leaving Tolkien (who discovered a copy of the Red Book) to translate his tale and rewrite it as a children's story?


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 6:42pm


Views: 26473
But you forget

 It's actually 65 years (60 between TH and FOTR, the year of the War of the Ring, and 4 more years after the end of the War, to the last scene in Bag End. Unless they show Frodo reading from the almost-completed Red Book say, 3 after. )

MrCere, does the rumor say we are actually going to SEE Frodo onscreen in the opening scene of TH 1? If we merely hear him doing a voice-over, it presents far less problems. It would b easier for me to accept the occaisional voice-over during TH as well. Then, you are still in the dark about who this mysterious "narrator" is, and the existence of Frodo and the timeframe of the narrative/identity of the Narrator is gradually revealed as the story goes on. (at the beg. of FOTR the future viewer realizes, "Oh, so this is who it is! Frodo, son of Drogo and Primula, and Bilbo adopted him!" --it seems we are going to be seeing the tragic deaths of, or at least a Hobbiton scene of, Drogo and Primula).

This is the Problem: this is all a lot easier to believe if the future viewer is watching the EE's. But if they are watching the Theatricals, this won't make any sense at all. ""60 years later" at the beginning of FOTR, as we see Frodo under the tree? And we've just seen the Prologue which takes you 3000 years back in tim. I remember watching the Prologue in the theater the first time, and if I hadn't known the story well, I imagine that "60 yrs later" would have confuse me at first. 60 yrs after what? Oh, right, 60 yrs after Bilbo finds a ring in a cave. That Prologue was seemingly straightforward but really asked a lot of movie-firsters, I'm thinking. (I'd love to hear reactions from movie-firsters if the Prolgue confused you at all, the first time you saw it?)

You have to remember, that Peter is facing the same problem George Lucas faced with the SW prequels. Fans of now may grouse, but this is really being made for future generations, where they'll sit down and watch the Pentology in order. So if we hear Frodo as a narrator in TH long before we see him onscreen, it would work wonderfully. (Except the theatrical would present some problems--that "60 yrs later" would have to be removed--as well as Ian Holm not looking like Martin in that brief flash-back? forward? scene in the FOTR Prologue --OUCH MY POOR BRAINTongueSmile)--

If WB is pressuring Peter into doing a sort of "Super-Prologue" to tie all this up for the movie-firster, when it really isn;t necessary, we're screwed. They have to have faith that it makes far more sense for the viewer to gradually find out who the narrator is, and the story would flow a lot better. OH God nightmare visions of Dune here*

But if the script calls for the audience to *see* Frodo in the very first scene of The Pentology, this would cause problems. How do you explain this character to the first-time movie-firster of the future? We see a mysterious scene of a hobbit reading a book he is writing in a house we don't know, yet, is Bag End. Is he alone, reading it as he writies it, as we later see Bilbo doing at the beginning of FOTR EE? Maybe that would work--if it's a brief teaser, just to get our curiosity piqued--if we are told nothing, If Frodo tells us nothing. IS Elijah really going to be reading the first pages word for word--"IN the hole in the groumd there lived a Hobbit?" etc. And when Gandlaf appears, he's say, "Gandalf! If you'd half of what I heard" etc.

Will he be reading to Elanor maybe? That would be a problem, since we'd only be able to see the back of Elanor's head, it being a miracle if they could find a 3-yr-old who looks exactly like 3-yr-old Alexandra did. (Although the aspect of the Saga having evolved, as Sam wished it, into a "fireside-tale for young Hobbits" is a charming one, if it is realized on the screen.It was hinted at at the end of TTT< in Sam's speech, just as it was in the book. That would be a nice evolving transition. )

Would we see Sam as well? Increasingly I think that Sean should narrate the darned thing, since "the very last pages were really his." I wish if Peter ever adds anything in the Ultimate Edition, it would be for a middle-aged or older Sean Astin handing the Red Book off to grown-up Alexandra, and hey, his other 2 grown kids, playing Goldilocks and Rosie-lass,etc--that woul be **absolutely enchanting**--I think they'd do it too! --not likely though--but hey a gal can dream can't she?Sly)

(Ok Sunflower, you're going insane. Stop the madness now. LaughLaugh)

Count on us fans to make a mountain out of a mol-hill-or in this case a Hobbit-hill. I'll bet Peter and Co and Guillermo (if he still reads this) are laughing their heads off. This is all probsbly hoo-hah, as HM says, over nothing.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 7 2011, 6:49pm)


The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 6:44pm


Views: 25542
That would be perfect.

I always thought the point of having a narrator at all for TH would be so that this line could start off the movie.


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 6:48pm


Views: 24352
I'm guessing..

I know Geordie seems to be leaving these forums.. and his last comments - if about Elijah Woods seem rather odd. Did you meet him in real life and was rude to you.. is this the origin of your hatred??

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 6:54pm


Views: 27548
Knowledge of the ring

Might have a part to play in this.

I suspect the film makers will not want to give away anything about the true nature of the ring in these films. That would potentially spoil the start of FOTR for future film goers unfamiliar with the story.

Doesn't that suggest that Frodo narrating the Hobbit from a time before FOTR makes more sense? When he, himself would not know what the ring was?

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 6:54pm


Views: 42413
I agree, it seemed as a strange comment to make //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Brandybuckled
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 6:57pm


Views: 26235
Thanks! You just gave me an idea for my sig line!

I never participated in the great NARF wars of the Fourth Age, but now I can be a NAArP'erLaugh

NAArP since 2011!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 7:02pm


Views: 25688
Both.

I see both of those, followed by

U GUYZ ARNT REAL FANS REAL FANS WOUD ARGREE WITH ME I AM THE BIGEST LOTR FAN EVAR I SAW ALL THE MOVIES 3 TIMS!!!!!!!!!!


Quote
<Looking through crystal ball>

HOW DARE PJ REMOVE THE TALKING PURSE!!!!



Quote
HOW DARE PJ LEAVE IN THE TALKING PURSE!!!


Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 7 2011, 7:11pm


Views: 39926
Who knows?

I think it would be good to begin that way too, but if there's to be some sort of prologue-ey Frodo-reads-book opening then there is, and we might as well make the best of it for now - at least, that's the way I'm trying to look at it.

But if the cinema darkens and the titles go up and the first words we hear are "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit...", no matter who says them, I shall start watching with a big satisfied smile!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 7:11pm


Views: 27533
Lindele, I see your point.

And I feel your pain. I don't know if this will help or not, but part of the reason every thread is peppered with complaints is that there are always many schools of thought on any issue concerning the books or the movies. This means that everyone is happy at some news and unhappy at other news. So when one group is happy, another group isn't, and vice versa. This means that while there are a few wet blankets around who apparently don't like anything at all, a lot of the complaining is spread around - different people complaining at different things. It helps somewhat to know the people as individuals, because then instead of a big group complaining en masse, you get to the point where you know that this person loves this idea and hates that one, but that person is the opposite, and that one over there can be trusted to bring up ______ at every opportunity. I don't know that it makes it less whiny, but at least it gives some variety to the chorus of moans. Wink

If you're waiting for the news that makes everyone happy....I'm not sure we've ever heard it. Perhaps the announcement of Ian McKellan's signing will be the closest, though I'm sure there's someone who's secretly hoping he'll be out and someone else will be in, and they'll make sure to come and tell us so. Tongue It's just the nature of things in a place like this.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories


Brandybuckled
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 7:16pm


Views: 24705
It's not a purse! It's a Middle Earthian carry-all!!

As a purist (but not an ardent purist), I will be satisfied with nothing until I get to see the movie.

Until then I shall complain (but not ardently) about the tune in my head not being in the same key as the tune in TPTB's heads.

NAArP since 2011!


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 7:16pm


Views: 26548
Or maybe Lurtz *is* Itaril!

"She was an elf once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form..."

******************************************
"The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli, son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess. The ring was made in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there can it be unmade. The ring must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came. One of you must do this."

*crickets*


peleowyn
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 7:17pm


Views: 26375
Wonderful news!!

We were all so hoping to see all our friends again! Hooray!!


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:20pm


Views: 25056
You're right about the McKellen announcement

Even that won't totally satisfy everybody. I remember Gandalf'sMother saying that she (or he?) would like The Hobbit to get a new director, a new Saruman and a new Gandalf, but that's the only person as far as I'm aware.


Patty
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 7:20pm


Views: 26476
*mods up*

But hopes it doesn't come true.Sly

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 7:23pm


Views: 24203
Haha. Good one, Darkstone //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 7:26pm


Views: 23973
I think

I think maybe 99% of the fans (this is just my estimation) accepts Ian McKellen as Gandy. It may not have been their first choice, but he worked. Another estimation is that maybe 80 % loves Ian McKellen as Gandy (as myself). Like Silverlode I think this announcement is the closest we can get to a mutual Yay-feeling around here. Or a mutual Nay-feeling for that matter, if he does not reprise his role as Gandalf. Unsure



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 7:26pm


Views: 25113
Well, I was hoping that everyone would be new, too.

Not because I disliked McKellen's Gandalf, because I didn't. I thought he did a terrific job.

I was just hoping to see a different Middle-earth from a different director's perspective, just for variety's sake.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 7:28pm


Views: 26758
Maybe this is where they're moving the Trolls' purse. //

 



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

(This post was edited by RosieLass on Jan 7 2011, 7:29pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:33pm


Views: 24577
I agree

that it would be nice to get a different director and a different perspective on Middle-earth (there are several that I would have preferred to direct The Hobbit), but recasting iconic characters solely for the sake of mixing things up is just going too far in my view.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 7:35pm


Views: 24412
So they're making a troll's purse from an elf's ear? /

 

******************************************
"The ring cannot be destroyed, Gimli, son of Gloin, by any craft that we here possess. The ring was made in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there can it be unmade. The ring must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the fiery chasm from whence it came. One of you must do this."

*crickets*


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 7:36pm


Views: 24935
Here's a thought

What if they somehow tie Frodo into Gandalf The White's long talk with Tom Bombadil at the end of ROTK where Gandalf would tell the tale of how all this business of the ring started?

Photobucket
<<< There is a long road yet >>>


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 7:36pm


Views: 26142
It is a gift. //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:39pm


Views: 26634
I love the idea of working Bombadil in somehow

If only they'd left the line in RotK where Gandalf says he's going off to meet him...

Maybe Frodo could narrate Bilbo's tale while sitting in Bag End and reading the Red Book, and Gandalf could narrate the adventures of the White Council while telling his parts of the story to Tom Bombadil?


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 7:39pm


Views: 25075
Well, no.

It would be silly for Peter Jackson to cast a different Gandalf.

But if we'd gotten a different producer and director, I would have wanted them to start with a clean slate and give us all new casting.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Doriath
Rivendell


Jan 7 2011, 7:40pm


Views: 39980
Guess I'll jump in

I'm realizing, finally, that there's no way to get exactly what you want from these films even if you are the one making them. I had problems with the first films but I still enjoy them. I will have problems with the next films but I'm sure I'll enjoy them enough. As I've talked about before, I hope to see these films done again someday in my lifetime by a whole new team. Perhaps England based. Perhaps Scandinavian. Maybe a mix. I would ultimately like to see films that stay completely true to the source material and long for the day when 3D is looked back on and laughed at. I think I'd even be happy with a considerably smaller budget so you don't have the money men calling the shots and demanding that it have break dancing robots in it or whatever the soup du jour is at that time. Another idea is to have it done as a series on cable. I always think about how terrible the movie "Dune" was and how great the series on cable was. So I look forward to those possibilities and will get a decent amount of enjoyment out of whatever we get in the next couple of years. Welcome back Elijah.

Gives it to us in glorious 2D!


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 7:40pm


Views: 26699
If you ask me,

it doesn't make a lot of sense to have either Bilbo or Frodo say those words...at least not if they're going to follow it up with the comments about Hobbit Holes. But I can easily hear Gandalf saying it. In fact, I could hear Gandalf saying nearly all the narrator's lines. It will be interesting to see what they actually do. The Galadriel-narrated opening to FOTR was a surprise to me, but I loved it even though I'd been secretly hoping for the Ring Verse, which we never got at all.

Silverlode

"Of all faces those of our familiares are the ones both most difficult to play fantastic tricks with, and most difficult really to see with fresh attention. They have become like the things which once attracted us by their glitter, or their colour, or their shape, and we laid hands on them, and then locked them in our hoard, acquired them, and acquiring ceased to look at them.
Creative fantasy, because it is mainly trying to do something else [make something new], may open your hoard and let all the locked things fly away like cage-birds. The gems all turn into flowers or flames, and you will be warned that all you had (or knew) was dangerous and potent, not really effectively chained, free and wild; no more yours than they were you."
-On Fairy Stories

(This post was edited by Silverlode on Jan 7 2011, 7:41pm)


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 7:42pm


Views: 43609
LOL!

The typos are a nice touch! Laugh



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


hobbit2012
The Shire

Jan 7 2011, 7:46pm


Views: 28442
How the heck must these movies then be viewed in future?

I don't know, this news sounds problematic, just purely from a viewing point of view.

If it is just a narration, or if the end of The Hobbit is a transition to FOTR with Frodo reading the book, that would work fine.

However, it sounds like this movie will open with Frodo. Depending when the book is read, how the heck is the pentology supposed to be viewed by future audiences? For example, will they play FOTR and TTT, start up ROTK, switch it off halfway wherever the book is read, then jump to the Hobbit movies as a flashback story, after that jump back to the ROTK and view the remainder of that movie? That will be horribly cumbersome, and an awkward way for future fans to view the series.

Why not a linear story? A future viewer should be able to start the series with The Hobbit without first having viewing the LOTR. The Hobbit can then seamlessly transition to the LOTR trilogy and voila! the pentology can be viewed chronologically in a straightforward pattern. And I think that the opening to FOTR would work, as it is a brief flashback fleshing out the mythology and will compliment the story, rather than 2 whole flashback movies.

Hopefully it will be limited to a narration, but from the spoiler it looks like this thing is going to be some stupid flashback in the middle of the LOTR trilogy Mad. Not to mention I hate movies which are pointless in story in a story (i.e. as opposed to narration, the story really revolves around our protagonist having some dream / reading a book / etc, and ends when he him wakes up, or walks out the shower, or some such rubbish).


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:47pm


Views: 24817
What you are talking about sounds like a reboot

and that's the last thing I want. The Hobbit films should be prequels to the Lord of the Rings ones, and should maintain a strong sense of continuity with them. I think very few people would be happy if the director (Peter Jackson or anyone else) decided to throw out the trilogy and just start from scratch. That would only make sense if the trilogy was a huge critical and/or commercial failure – a good example would be the appalling Batman & Robin, which was rebooted into the excellent Batman Begins, complete with a new director and an all-new cast.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 7:53pm


Views: 25168
Two points


Quote
However, it sounds like this movie will open with Frodo. Depending when the book is read, how the heck is the pentology supposed to be viewed by future audiences? For example, will they play FOTR and TTT, start up ROTK, switch it off halfway wherever the book is read, then jump to the Hobbit movies as a flashback story, after that jump back to the ROTK and view the remainder of that movie? That will be horribly cumbersome, and an awkward way for future fans to view the series.

Perhaps Jackson will re-edit the pentalogy into chronological order for the Ultimate Edition? The Hobbit bookends and flashbacks would be placed at whatever point they occur in the story (presumably somewhere amongst RotK's multiple endings). I think it could work.


Quote
Hopefully it will be limited to a narration, but from the spoiler it looks like this thing is going to be some stupid flashback in the middle of the LOTR trilogy Mad. Not to mention I hate movies which are pointless in story in a story (i.e. as opposed to narration, the story really revolves around our protagonist having some dream / reading a book / etc, and ends when he him wakes up, or walks out the shower, or some such rubbish).

The Red Book of Westmarch which Frodo is reading is actually Bilbo's memoirs, not a fictional book within the film or anything like that. The framing device is just a way to present a flashback. It's not going to be a metafictional dream sequence or anything like that!



Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 7:54pm


Views: 23680
Yes he did change his mind

and he made that statement on TORN. You can find that post through the board's search function.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 8:01pm


Views: 23102
I like the idea

of Tolkien's work passing into the public domain and joining such classic, near-mythological stories as Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Sherlock Holmes, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, The War of the Worlds, the Lovecraft mythos and so on. That would allow everyone to do whatever they like with the stories and adapt them in as many ways as they can imagine. What I don't like is the idea of Warners just going ahead and producing a remake of any of Jackson's films ten or twenty years from now. I don't want to see another version until the copyright has expired and Tolkien's legendarium becomes the property of humanity as a whole – just like any other self-respecting mythology!


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 8:01pm


Views: 24769
So it takes Frodo

to draw you out of lurkerdom, hmmm? *makes note*

;)

Nice to see you here Swan Maiden. :)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 8:23pm


Views: 26987
Middle-earth I: The Phantom Hobbit

I concluded some time ago, that the Hobbit would be best served if it were neither prequel nor sequel but dealt with as a worthy story onto itself. Now it appears that it will be turned into a cast reunion film in an attempt to protect the half billion dollar investment. This is very disappointing.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 8:24pm


Views: 26616
I'm just glad they won't swap Gollum with Jar-Jar. //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Eruonen
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 8:28pm


Views: 25019
My guess is that we could possibly see Ian Holm telling Wood

about his youthful adventures (sometime before the LOTR) and then the movie cuts away.....


Patty
Immortal


Jan 7 2011, 8:28pm


Views: 24766
You said it, Macfalk...

Jar-Jar is my least favorite non-villain character in all of moviedom.

Permanent address: Into the West

Must. Have. The Precious! Give us the LotR EE Blu-ray Ultimate Box Set!



Jettorex
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 8:31pm


Views: 25386
I agree


In Reply To
it doesn't make a lot of sense to have either Bilbo or Frodo say those words...at least not if they're going to follow it up with the comments about Hobbit Holes. But I can easily hear Gandalf saying it. In fact, I could hear Gandalf saying nearly all the narrator's lines. It will be interesting to see what they actually do. The Galadriel-narrated opening to FOTR was a surprise to me, but I loved it even though I'd been secretly hoping for the Ring Verse, which we never got at all.



I always envisioned Gandalf/Ian saying these lines (In a hole in the ground...)to open the beginning of The Hobitt movie as the first shot zeroes in on Bilbo's front door. I don't see how they could possibly have this saying now that Frodo is going to be in it as some sort of introduction to the movie/story in flashback?

BTW-I totally have the same feeling with you on the Galadriel opening to LOTR. I always thought they should have had the Ring Verse, either spoken or text (on the screen) as one of the first things as LOTR starts.


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."





Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 8:36pm


Views: 39606
Boromir as the first ghost of Yules past.//

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 8:41pm


Views: 24953
That's exactly what I wanted.

And I daresay some of the film purists would have been unhappy at first, but if it was done well, why couldn't it work?

I'm not as sold on the concept of The Hobbit being a "prequel" to LOTR anyway. It is a separate book, and it can stand on its own merits. It doesn't need to ride LOTR's coattails to be successful.

(Does anyone notice that I'm using the same arguments always given for why movie-LOTR could take liberties with book-LOTR and still be good? Hmmm??? Wink)



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 8:43pm


Views: 23826
What makes you so certain?

Wezza needs the precious!

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jan 7 2011, 8:45pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 8:55pm


Views: 43880
Audiences don't want excellent series to be rebooted.

And that's what Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings is – an excellent series. There's no reason to alienate everyone who liked the trilogy (read: a lot of people) by disconnecting it from The Hobbit. Why should they deliberately reboot the series and give us a different-looking Bilbo, Gandalf, Shire, Rivendell, Dwarves, Elves, hobbits, orcs, trolls etc when all these characters looked perfect in the trilogy? It's not just 'film purists' (whatever that means) who would dislike this move: it's practically everyone outside of a very small purist minority.

I don't think I ever said that The Hobbit wasn't good enough to work as a stand-alone film. It does not 'need to ride LotR's coat-tails to be successful', but I see no reason to attempt the sort of segregation of the pentalogy that you're suggesting.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 8:56pm


Views: 44832
Drogo and Primula

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the potential ramifications of having Frodo in some way involved in the films (even as a narrator) and having his parents, Drogo and Primula apparently also involved in some way. I find it hard to believe that the two things will be completely unconnected.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 9:01pm


Views: 220965
Everyone? Who is this "everyone"?

"Everyone who loved Peter Jackson's LOTR" maybe.

But what about those of us who only "liked" it? Or those who actively disliked it? Or those who haven't seen it and don't care what it was about but might be interested in a movie based on another great book by a great author?

Or, heck, the people who just like to see movies for the filmcraft?

I appreciate your point of view, Flagg, but I think you're presuming too much to speak for "everyone" or even to claim that you're the vast majority.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

(This post was edited by RosieLass on Jan 7 2011, 9:03pm)


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 9:11pm


Views: 44539
I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

As I'm sure you're aware, Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films were released to great critical acclaim and commercial success, breaking box-office records, winning many prestigious awards and satisfying most fans of Tolkien's work.

I don't see why those that only 'liked' them would want The Hobbit to be reboot, set in a new continuity and with all-new actors. The same goes for those who haven't seen The Lord of the Rings, those who don't care about it, those who are mildly curious about an adaptation of a Tolkien book or those who appreciate good filmmaking. The only people who really want the series to be rebooted are those who disliked or hated the Peter Jackson films, and I suspect that they are a very small (albeit vocal) minority when compared to the masses who would be satisfied with a simple cohesive series taking place in one continuity.


(This post was edited by Flagg on Jan 7 2011, 9:18pm)


R11
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 9:13pm


Views: 26691
I'm sorry but


In Reply To
I could not possibly agree more. But PJ has never been a respecter of Tolkien's written word so color me NOT surprised that he puts financial gain (by linking it with his big moneymaker) ahead of fidelity to Tolkien's work. I'm sure they'll find a zillion ways to rationalize it... like Faramir-the-evil-street-thug of the movies had to be that way for 'cinematic' reason. Won't make it more palatable to us 'purists' who are silly enough to favor Tolkien over Jackson. But it'll make money... and that IS their only real goal. Making money.

*shrug*



This is simply a full load of hog wash. If you think PJ cares not about the works and is only concerned about financial gain you are simply lost in the woods friend. It's ludicrous.


ron


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:23pm


Views: 27276
Yes that occured

to me after posting, and likely it occurred to others in this thread who think situating the tale near the end of ROTK is the way to go.

Statements have been made to the effect that when all is said and done TH and LOTR could be viewed as a continuous narrative in future. But I do not think that was meant to imply that the movies would be best viewed in the order the books were written or in a linear manner. It may be that the preferred order will be to view the original film (ie LOTR) followed by the prequel (ie TH) which is sometimes the case (for example Hannibal followed by Hannibal Rising or as seems to be the case with the two Star Wars trilogies).

This mirrors the way we experience many great stories... we happen upon a tale such as Tennyson's Idylls of the King and then seek out its source Le morte d'Arthur. I wonder how many LOTR fans read The Lord of the Rings after seeing the movies and then delved further back to The Hobbit and then perhaps even Beowulf?

But you raise a fair concern if this is the approach they (being them) adopt. Certainly the treatment of knowledge of the Ring would be a tricky element but not really a deal breaker. How often do we slip into nostalgia, fondly embracing a time when our understanding was simpler or our world view less jaded?


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 7 2011, 9:25pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:30pm


Views: 24914
Yes it looks as if the Bridge Film is being reborn as a Wrapper for the Hobbit.

I almost expect the farm hand scene from the end of the Wizard of Oz to be re-imaged. Gandalf, Aragorn and Gollem look down at Frodo regaining consciousness lying on the tarmac in front of The Green Dragon.

"You were there and so were you and you. There is no place like the Shire!"

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 9:32pm


Views: 25072
I mentioned it, Voronwe

See my post above.

I sincerely hope that we see them in a blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot of them holding baby Frodo, a la Bail Organa and his wife holding and smiling down at baby Leia,...but please God NOT a macabre re-enactment of them being "drownded". We don't need to see that. Bilbo already tells us that they died at the Party. We don't need to know how. Though knowing Peter that's just the sort of grisly thing he'd love to focus upon. But I don't want to see it, no thanks. Not even if it was indeed "Drogo's weight as sunk the boat"--that might sound humurous in print, but it's not amusing on the screen at all.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 7 2011, 9:36pm)


silneldor
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:41pm


Views: 47902
You always make good sense Flagg

and i feel the same way about Sam. If it cannot be Bilbo because of Sir Ian, it should be Sam's telling of the story to his kids. The time framing would feel much better as you say.

In one sense it does pulls on the heart that Frodo did after all traveled west across the sea and it would have been comforting to have him contribute such history to the shirefolk old and new. But it would have been very endearing to have Sam with all his children around him, even later in life. Perhaps they are using Frodo/Elijah because he is prettier lol.

Your Gandalf idea makes just as much sense.

''Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master's head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lorien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear...But their luck held, and for the rest of that day they met no living or moving thing; and when night fell they vanished into the darkess of Mordor.'' - - -rotk, chapter III

May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!

In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo













SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:41pm


Views: 24895
Just to add -- already looking forward to

dissecting the scene where we shift from Bag End as we left it to Bag End as it might have been at the beginning of The Hobbit.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:43pm


Views: 25133
With his patented weird angles and everything

welcome back Sunflower. Smile


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 9:44pm


Views: 25300
I wonder how much GDT is really still involved in the script writing.

-If at all anymore.

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<<< There is a long road yet >>>


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:48pm


Views: 24614
Haha

I can tell you are just joking because you like the idea of Itaril... there's no way you're getting all negative about Frodo being included in TH. Right? Laugh


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 9:48pm


Views: 27065
Thanks, silneldor – I appreciate it. //

 


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 9:48pm


Views: 25942
The script should be very close to completion by now

All of the important writing decisions will have been made during the early days, when Guillermo was still in charge.


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 9:53pm


Views: 26033
Most likely true,

but how far down the rewrite chain does one finally say, yeaaah...maybe you should take my name off that, it's to far removed from where I wanted to go.

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<<< There is a long road yet >>>

(This post was edited by Pipe Dream on Jan 7 2011, 9:55pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:54pm


Views: 27038
I think this whole approach is new.

It really does not sound like the Guillermo del Toro i know and love. It also rubs against a lot of what was said earlier about the layout of the Hobbit films.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:55pm


Views: 24740
Going out on a limb here

but this seems to be just the kind of brilliant approach GDT would come up with. Just saying...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 9:56pm


Views: 25267
Not necessarily so. 3-D is a big for instance.//

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 10:00pm


Views: 44172
I'm not saying I mind...

I'm just saying that GDT's vision would most likely have been different from PJ's take on some things.

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<<< There is a long road yet >>>


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:00pm


Views: 42977
I would beg to differ.

This is exactly the opposite. It is much more like pandering to the studio's desires, and we all know how GdT feels about that.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 10:10pm


Views: 27910
Not new

Assuming that Mr. C knows what he is talking about (and I have never doubted that to be the case; quite the contrary) this is something that was in the works back when the four writers were writing the scripts. He says:


Quote

Since the speculation is now everywhere around the interwebs, TORn can confirm that as of now, the plans are to feature Frodo in the opening sequence of the films. It is unlikely that studio Warner Bros. or Team Jackson would change the script at this point in response to the web buzz so we may have just "spoiled" December 2012 for some, but we warned you. (And, sat on the spoiler until leaks started to appear!)

Rumors have suggested Wood is "in talks" to appear in the film but that isn't an issue as it very likely the role was discussed with the actor at the scripting phase of the films and he was agreeable to reprise his part then.



There is no way that this can be interpreted any way other than that this was the plan when the scripts were originally submitted, long before GdT left the project. Of course, we have no way of knowing (or at least Mr. C has not revealed) whether it was Jackson's idea, or GdT's (or FW's or PB, for that matter), but it is clear that all the writers signed off on it, including GdT


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:13pm


Views: 25873
It may have escaped my attention

but while it appeared that GDT wanted to remain true to The Hobbit proper, it did not seem like he was opposed to the idea of book-ending (or even peppering) it with elements from LOTR or the space/time between them. But maybe my read of his intentions -- someone I only "know" through this forum (if that even counts) and his commentaries -- is wide of the mark? Hence "going out on a limb." Angelic

Come to think of it, it is not entirely fair to say this is pandering to "the studio's desires." Even I am torn between seeing The Hobbit and seeing as many LOTR characters again as possible (and I should know better lol). Maybe that's why we call this place TORn?Crazy


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 10:14pm


Views: 40250
Please take this to PM if you must continue

RosieLass is entitled to her opinion whether you agree with it or not. I'm sure she's not alone, and it doesn't take two, or two thousand, other people to make it valid.

Either way, please take this to PM if you want to continue, as you've both stated the same points several times now.

Thanks!


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:17pm


Views: 25878
True dat

Wink I can't wait for the book G is free to write (and said he might write) after his NDA wears off.


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 10:18pm


Views: 26058
NDA?

?

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 10:19pm


Views: 25672
Guessing Non-disclosure agreement.

 

Photobucket
<<< There is a long road yet >>>


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:20pm


Views: 23758
No wonder she wouldn't take it back /

Laugh


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 10:22pm


Views: 26364
ah right...

Can't be any more whiney then Sean-everythingwassoterrible-Astin's book.

Cool

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 10:26pm


Views: 24169
One thing is for certain.

Elijah Wood is going to be hounded by the press a bit more now. I wonder if he'll deny it or just say no comment?

Photobucket
<<< There is a long road yet >>>


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:38pm


Views: 22453
He's pretty savvy and/or

never far from his publicist. I saw him on Mad TV one time where a "correspondent" of their's was covering the premier of Happy Feet. The correspondent asked Elijah for a kiss but the publicist (off camera) said "NO!"

**Content advisory**: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awjd_7Oco5g


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:38pm


Views: 26142
Perhaps you are correct but there is new and NEW.

and I guess my point is this. Looking at how GdT has structured the films he has made, this wrapping of the main story with a structure that is primarily aimed at bringing back LotR cast members does not seem like his idea. Of course there were three other writers who would be much more likely to like this direction and he would be out voted. I hate to say it but this could have been one more small reason for leaving the production. (I still think time was the primary motivation).

Her I would like to say that I do not believe that the story within a story structure is necessarily bad. It depends on how it is implemented and if it does justice to both plots.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 10:42pm


Views: 27884
and don't forget the slo-mo!

A haunting shot of the two of them holding on and flailing in a beautiful last embrace, as they sink down and down, with an angelic light about their heads, Drodo looking especially majestic, and all set to Shore's poignant music--so the viewer can later tie it in with Sam at the end of FOTR.. "They're dying as martyrs--like Tuor and Idril giving life to Earendil, and then departing Midde-Earth!"

Sorry, Sir Dennic, I couldn';t help it. TongueSly

Hola to you too--Yeah, I went away for a while--RL is like that. But I wrote a long Christmas mathom (look for it in the Mathom thread in OT) and posted a bit in the Holday Fiesta thread. Happy New Year! I missed everybody.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 7 2011, 10:51pm)


lurtz2010
Rohan

Jan 7 2011, 10:43pm


Views: 23710
Everything is different now

...Not really. I never actually thought something like this would happen and just thought TH would be a stand alone movie but this could be cool. This will be the last MiddleEarth/PJ 'thing' ever so I say PJ should do whatever he wants. Wasn't the ROTK cartoon version done like this? I remember the story was told by the hobbits at the dinner table at Rivendell or something.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:46pm


Views: 25319
Both Kangi and I take exception to that appraisal

and Ataahua too. And every Sean Astin fan. So yeah, you offended just about everyone on the planet. WinkLaugh

Anyway, getting back to this thread, it is hard to say where this approach was born. If it is simply fan driven I do not believe that means GDT didn't sign off on it. What is clear from the release is that Wood (and anyone else who was handed a script (we can assume that includes Viggo)) has known for some time about it and there has been no discernible anti-PJ and co. outcry.

Props to Mr. Cere for being able to keep a secret so well!


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:49pm


Views: 24771
Preach it sista!

Yeah hopefully RED cameras are not slo-mo enabled.

Ah this has been a good thread to start the year with... Laugh


Elentari03
Rivendell

Jan 7 2011, 10:51pm


Views: 26625
Forgive my ignorance, but

what does NARF stand for? Evil


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:53pm


Views: 24696
NARF: Not a real fan. //

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 10:58pm


Views: 21581
They can do a bazillion frames a minute...

Makes the bullets in Matrix look fast.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Elentari03
Rivendell

Jan 7 2011, 10:58pm


Views: 23876
Many thanks.//

 


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 10:59pm


Views: 21331
Most things like that can be found at the TORNspeak dictionary


In Reply To
what does NARF stand for? Evil


Click here

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<<< There is a long road yet >>>


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 11:01pm


Views: 22231
Apologies...

Sean did a great job as Sam. I just found his behind the scenes stuff a little whiney and self absorbed.

Sorry if i offended the Sean Astin fan club members :)

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 11:03pm


Views: 22499
It was at dinner at Ozzie & Harriet's house

if I remember right, and it ended with little Ricky Nelson singing "The Greatest Adventure".

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 11:06pm


Views: 22573
Sam would have been a logical choice...

I agree that it would make more sense for Sam to read from the book, and there's something so wonderfully circular about that idea. But Frodo was the central character of the LotR movies, so perhaps they've decided to use him to tie TH with LotR for that reason, no matter how awkward the time-frame is.

But whatever they do, I don't want it to be one big happy gratuitous hobbit reunion that distracts too much from Bilbo's story.


(This post was edited by The Party Tree on Jan 7 2011, 11:07pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 7 2011, 11:07pm


Views: 21827
They both have played Dracula, did you know?//

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 11:13pm


Views: 20757
-Pretty close.

It was at dinner at Ozzie & Harriet's house with Ricky Nelson singing.

Photobucket
<<< There is a long road yet >>>


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 11:14pm


Views: 36495
Did they play the same Dracula?

That is to say, was Lee's Dracula film a sequel to Langella's Dracula film, or vice-versa? Or were they completely unrelated adaptations (reboots, if you like)?


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 7 2011, 11:16pm


Views: 21010
Wait, what?


In Reply To
and Ataahua too.



I haven't read the book and have no plans to because, although I think he's a darn good actor, if find Sean's point of view of the world tends to trigger my eye-rolling reflex. He wouldn't be my first choice as a dinner companion, let alone author.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 11:16pm


Views: 21516
LOL!!

Not a Real Ardent Pure Fan. I'm laughing in reality at the moment.

Heart You are fantastic, man.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 7 2011, 11:20pm


Views: 20985
Me too

And I am not too picky as to who says it... so long as it is said. Doesn't seem right to start the movie without that famous line.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 11:21pm


Views: 20983
torn

hmm...having myself previously suggested a sort of 'Princess Bride' sort of narrator (in my scenario with Sean Astin's Sam Gamgee doing the Peter Falk-ish bits)...this may sound hypocritical ...but...this Frodo thing....I'm agin' it!


(This post was edited by carrioncrow on Jan 7 2011, 11:24pm)


mtsquad
Registered User

Jan 7 2011, 11:22pm


Views: 39668
The Hobbit or the Hen?

*Y-A-W-N* I hear ya, but can't really care.

Oh! Your and you are now colored disappointed!

Book? Movie?

Movie? Book?

They don't match! Hmm ...


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 11:23pm


Views: 20781
Yarp...

He was a fine actor but you are right eye rolling is about the best way to describe it.

I always remember the story of the cast all going up on stage at the oscars after winning the last award and Sean Astin turns to Stephen Spielberg - Oh Stephen, I hear people talking about doing a sequel of the Gooneys. And Spielberg just stopped him dead by saying - Not now Sean.

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 11:26pm


Views: 21604
Continuity

I agree with Flagg. 5 films, one long story, continuity. In years to come, long after these discussions are forgotten, I want to reach into my DVD cabinet (or whatever I have at the time) and pull out the 5 film box set, open a bottle of wine and watch the whole thing through. If I run out of wine, I'll get more........

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Pipe Dream
Gondor


Jan 7 2011, 11:27pm


Views: 22949
So it was you huh? When was your last visit to France?


In Reply To
They can do a bazillion frames a minute... Makes the bullets in Matrix look fast.



It's bazillion and one frames actually, and how would you know that? Done a bit of quick burgling have you?
First RED EPIC Camera Stolen From Executive's House In France -Cinema Blend

It's time to collect my $100,000 reward!

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<<< There is a long road yet >>>

(This post was edited by Pipe Dream on Jan 7 2011, 11:29pm)


The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 11:32pm


Views: 21303
Love him to pieces, but...

Half the time I don't know whether to giggle or cringe during his interviews.
But I would argue that a lot of people in Hollywood are just like that, and at least he's honest about how egocentric he can be. And if any of that kind of attitude had anything to do with more screen-time for Sam, etc., that's fine by me. Laugh


Snaga
Lorien


Jan 7 2011, 11:37pm


Views: 21735
*Points at Kangi....."Burn him!"


In Reply To
back when Return of the King had just finished its run in the theaters. It was an idea of how to bring back a lot of the cast from the Lord of the Rings for a Hobbit movie. It involved a scenario where the story of the Hobbit was being told by Samwise to his children thus bringing back any or all of the Fellowship Hobbits in a giant cameo and then telling the actual story of the Hobbit as a flashback. I have long since decided that this was a weak idea as it would rob the Hobbit of its independence. Well it looks like I need to go back and study the details. It did seem brilliant at the time. Now I am really not so sure.

The biggest reason I can think of for doing it this way is to give the guys we love a chance to put on the feet again without messing up the story of the Hobbit.



Just kidding.Wink But seriously, wouldn't that be too funny if they credit a letter by some anonymous fan in the appendices for why they did it this way?

"Alas for Boromir! It was too sore a trial!"

-Faramir


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 11:38pm


Views: 21505
I think that's right

I agree about not necessarily reading/watching in order. It's 'neater' but by no means essential.

I'm also in agreement about it not being a deal breaker. I'm probably biased in that I love the more in-depth aspects of Tolkiens work, so it's always more more more backstory for me. Showing some of the time period between the Hobbit and FOTR is a way for some of that backstory to be added, but I'm only one fan. There are many ways to tell the tale.

I'm new to this board, and find the posting method slightly strange, so apologies for addressing more than one point in a post:

re: reboots. I agree with Flagg. IMO, no need, and I think it would potentially spoil things. It's a huge risk, and I see no reason to take it.

re: Jackson's films. My guess is that the vast majority of Tolkien fans range from mildly happy to delighted with the LOTR films. I've talked to people who are annoyed at one detail or another, but those of us who grew up with Tolkien, and waited eagerly to see the Bakshi version in the 70s will realise what a fantastic job, overall, Jackson's crew did with these films. I do not expect TH to be markedly different.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bound
Rohan


Jan 7 2011, 11:39pm


Views: 20821
Honesty the best policy..

I agree, he never seems to BS at all.

But to be honest I've seen other actors that seem very honest and yet in not egotastic.

But hey I'm not turning this into a I HATE SEAN ASTIN thread... It's all good... Peace and love !!!

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 11:40pm


Views: 20940
Elijah Wood 10 years on

I know there's alot of talk about Woods' "perpetually youthful" appearance...but it is nearly a decade on since principal photography of LOTR and he may not be so convincing back in the ole wig & feet....and before someone suggests "but CGI...", let me remind you we're (reportedly) talking about a narrator. If the creative minds on this movie ( THE HOBBIT let us not forget) are wasting time and money on making Frodo Baggins look 10 years younger, this project is shaping up as a (hopefully at least hilarious) fiasco.


lurtz2010
Rohan

Jan 7 2011, 11:45pm


Views: 22770
So Frodo will probably end film 1

He'll close the red book and say "And that's the end of that chapter... We'll have to wait a while to get the rest of Bilbo's adventure as I'm too tired for today now who's up for some Longbottom leaf?"
"ME!" says Sam.
"I am!" says Pippin.
"Right here!" says Merry.

Roll credits

...or something like that.


Bran
Lorien

Jan 7 2011, 11:53pm


Views: 21521
Bringing back cast members

I honestly don't see it as 'bringing back cast members'. Many of these characters existed at the time of the Hobbit, and the rest were born and grew up before LOTR. The two hobbit films will, I guess, be 6 hours or so in Theatrical versions, maybe 7 hours in EE. If Legolas gets a minute or two, a boy Estel at Rivendell, a flash of Balin at Moria, even a young Gimli, it would hardly detract from the vast bulk of the Hobbit at all, and could set up FOTR very nicely when watching the films as a set.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 7 2011, 11:56pm


Views: 23148
I love Sean

to peices too, but I have to admit, I DID read his book, and I have to give him credit for not holding back and including stories of things he said that offended several people and for which he later repented. For instance, he came out in the press and was angry at Peter and Fran for the take of the famous Mount Doom sequence that made it to the screen. Peter did about 30 takes of the "Do you remember the Shire?" scene (OH GOD I still tear up just thinking of this), and Sean and Elijah got better and better as it went on. According to Sean, his best work, where he was the most emotional, was in the closing takes, but Peter ended up putting something around Take 15 in the final version, and Sean thought it wasn't good enough, he was po'd about it and splashed it all over the media. (Hard to believe that Sean could have been any better than THAT, remembering that scene, and I've always been curious ever since to be able to see Take 30...but the way I see it is, Peter wanted more of the "even as hope seemed to die in Sam, a new strength rose up in him, as if he were steel that could not bend or break" or however that phrase went, and he wanted to evoke that "sam finding new reserves of strength and defiance" look rather than a weepy and emotional Sam.
But for Sean it was a cop-out I suppose. For the life of me, after he experienced the audience reaction to that scene, I don't know what in heck he had to complainb about. Planet Earth was pretty much reduced to a puddle of mush by that scene, and it has become famous in modern film.

Then again, didn't he admit he was bipolar? Suppose it explains "I SO wanted to be up there!" (Oscars stage).

You have to remember too, that Sean more than any one of them, is a total creature of Hollywood. His parents wrre Hollywood royalty, and from an early age he was active in the biz. Most child actors who are in high-profile by the age of 10 end up screwed up in some way. On drugs, with busted relatiohips or whatever. I think considering all went through Sean turned out relatively well. GOing to an elite school for Hollywood progeny can't have helped matters either. Its a screwed up place. (Hollywood, not LA< I mean...sorry Ainu!)

Parts of the book shocked me, but he's past all that now. Nobody's perfect, and I forgive Sean his flaws.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 8 2011, 12:03am)


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 7 2011, 11:59pm


Views: 40868
Except that, of all of those...

the only one that could be a "returning cast member" is Orlando Bloom.

Obviously Viggo Mortensen can't play a 10-year-old boy (at least, not convincingly), and I don't see John Rhys-Davies as a young dwarf, either.

Did they show Balin at Moria in LOTR? I don't remember.



It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 12:03am


Views: 26035
for what its worth

here is a rough outline of what i had in mind from over a year ago:

A Hobbit, Master Samwise Gamgee (a respectable 102 years old), stands alone with the aid of a walking stick in contemplation in what appears to be a beautiful well tended garden in the midst of the glade where Frodo first appears in Peter Jackson’s FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING. (It is, in truth, now the gravesite of Sam’s wife, Rose Gamgee)

CUT TO: A few more scenes of morning in Hobbiton.

CUT TO: A "well-to-do" Hobbit is shown tidying up on the doorstep of Bag End and preparing to settle down and enjoy a "pipe of tobacco out of doors". This hobbit is Samwise Gamgee, Master of Bag End. His morning regimen is disrupted by an intrusion...several of his own grandchildren (including a young Holfast Gardner) and other children from the holes of the Lower Hill. Up to mischief or actually seeking Samwise for entertainment…a tale is called for…"Frodo of the Nine-Fingers"…no…here on the doorstep of Bag End on this morning it is the Tale of Bilbo and
"The Road going ever on and on…" that Sam has in mind. Sam sits down with the children all around and begins the tale of Bilbo’s adventure with Gandalf and the Quest for Erebor…

The events of THE HOBBIT – CHAPTER 1 "An Unexpected Party" – PAGES 11-36


events of THE HOBBIT – CHAPTER 2 "Roast Mutton"– PAGES 37-43 up to the point where Bilbo steps into the firelight of the three trolls…"
and this is what he saw…" One of the trolls turns from the fire to face Bilbo. It is a terrible creature just as full of menace as those trolls portrayed in Moria or the Black Gate of Peter Jackson’s LOTR…

CUT TO: A trembling hobbit child (Holfast Gardner?). The story has become a bit too intense for the young hobbit. Sam interrupts the tale to speak a word of comfort, pauses to consider…The story resumes, but now in a gentler (strictly PG-rated) tone more reminiscent of JRRT’s original HOBBIT as written. The tone of the Film will only slowly build back to the PG-13 intensity of Jackson’s LOTR films.

FADE BACK: The story picks up again at the trolls’ camp. They are still threatening creatures, but now with intelligible speech and a slightly comic aspect to their character. Proceed with the story:

THE HOBBIT – PAGES 44-106

Sam’s presence as "THE NARRATOR" will be keenly felt from the point Bilbo finds the ring until Bilbo is reunited with the dwarves on the Mountain side. Perhaps we’ll hear the children shout out the answer to the riddles…


proceed with THE HOBBIT – CHAPTER 6 – PAGES 107-
226

CUT TO: Sam looking into the eyes of the hobbit children. "…
Going on from there was the bravest thing Bilbo ever did. The tremendous things that happened afterwards were as nothing compared to it. He fought the real battle in that tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait…" Sam pauses and looks into the eyes of young Holfast. Holfast sets his jaw and nods deliberately as if to say "Yes. Go on." At this point the tone of the film has returned to the PG-13 level and intensity of Peter Jackson’s LOTR films. The image of Bilbo walking down the dark tunnel toward the light and heat of the dragon’s lair draws obvious parallels to Sam’s own experience at Mount Doom.

FADE TO: THE HOBBIT – CHAPTER 12 – PAGES 227-
278
Gandalf, Balin and Bilbo settle down with their evening pipes outside the doorstep of Bag End.

FADE TO: Sam and the children sitting on the very same doorstep all those years later. It has changed little. It is now evening for Sam and the children as well. He finishes the tale and sends the children off to home and bed. Some reside at Bag End. Sam takes a moment alone to look at the stars. He recites a bit of his own poetry. As a few of the children enter the front hall of Bag End, Elanor (Sam’s eldest daughter) steps outside. She brings a satchel and Sam’s Elvish cloak. He has a moment with his daughter. A company of Elves comes around the hill on their way west to the sea. Sam has been expecting them. He heads off to join them with walking stick in hand.

THE END



Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 8 2011, 12:06am


Views: 29942
Are you kidding?

Where would Peter be without his beloved slo-mo? It's like Guillermo's tentacles.Sly

(EDIT: I relaize how that sounds..oh GOD. Let me just say that those of you who are familar with Guillermo's portfolio know what I mean..it's like someone getting stabbed in every Jackson film.)

Ah, not knocking ya Peter. At least not yet. <g>. Sometimes that slo-mo made me cry.

I hope the threads get better--I can't wait for the Sir Ian confirmation thread myself.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 8 2011, 12:15am)


Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 12:08am


Views: 25350
Well yes

But I did say 'before the time of LOTR' as well, and we don't know that that time period will categorically be excluded from these films.

The point I was making, though, is that there is nothing intrinsically wrong, imo, with using characters from LOTR in these prequels - Tolkien gives us immense detail on their whereabouts. Whether we see the same actor, or the character as a child with a different actor, it still serves the prupose of introducing the character into the five movies.

The only thing I would object to, as I said earlier, is if the character is shown with a major difference in story.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 12:08am


Views: 23316
Sean Astin

While I thought he was the coolest of the hobbits behind the scenes, for instance that "safety sam" part with helicopters was a lot of fun, I have also heard that his book is whiney. I have to read it myself though to form a better opinion.

But he'll always be Sam to me Smile



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 12:15am


Views: 22789
This is a charming idea!

Although it reminded me of the unfortunate fact that The Return of the King film didn't end with Sam living in Bag End.

But aside from that, I think that some way of bringing in those wonderful narrative lines that otherwise might not make it into the movie would be great, whichever hobbit they choose in order to do it.


(This post was edited by The Party Tree on Jan 8 2011, 12:16am)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:23am


Views: 21649
The thought of being responsible makes me queasy.

I can picture being stoned by frenzied fans of the book. I would probably join in. (Kangi hit himself in the head with a large stone.)

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 8 2011, 12:29am


Views: 23535
I've always wonderd about that.

I don't remember the end of LOTR or appendices on this...but in the book, Sam does not live in Bag End? I know he did the first couple of years after his marriage, Frodo says "There's as much room in Bag End for as big a family as you'd wish for" and Sam does move in. But after Frodo departs?

He can certainly afford to keep Bag End, I imagined he returned well recompensed from Gondor. Did Sam's giving up Bag End come from his regret over losing Frodo--hard to stay in a place that reminds of of your best friend who "died"--or was it just good politics on the part of the Mayor of the Shire--hobbits can be tetchy about those who "returned from living in foreign parts" and it makes good political sense for Master Samwise to love to humbler dwellings? Or did he think Bag End was cursed...Hey I don't admit toknowing as much as you guys do.


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 8 2011, 12:30am)


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 12:31am


Views: 21918
Only Balin's tomb was shown //

 



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:31am


Views: 21415
Lee did several Dracula & vampire films.

Frank Langella
Dracula (1979)

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 12:37am


Views: 21685
Sam inherits Bag End and stays there in the book, but they must have just abandoned that whole idea in the movie

They must have left that out of the movie for pacing reasons, but I honestly don't think it would have been that difficult to incorporate it. So I'm not sure what the movie-verse explanation is for him not living there (if there is one).


(This post was edited by The Party Tree on Jan 8 2011, 12:39am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:37am


Views: 35430
Wrong target

you, Kangi and I are united in our outrage at the notion that any future book by GDT could be as whinny as Sean Astin's book (which I admit to only have skimmed at a local bookstore). Laugh


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 8 2011, 12:38am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:41am


Views: 23482
Not really

as much as I like PJ's films so far, his signature techniques (which between us we outlined fully) have been over done.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:56am


Views: 23171
Sadly, I have never been to France.

But I LOVE French Fries (Even if they were not invented in France). As to the Camera...that would be a hard one to fence. I am sure each one is heavily documented.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 1:38am


Views: 23558
I found the letter. I thought I had deleted it but It got saved on disk when I backed up My Doccuments

Mr. Jackson,
I have been impressed with your work and especially enjoy your off tilt dark sense of humor.
Your postings on the Kong is King web site are fun and remarkably informative. I am 56 years of age and recall King Kong as one of my earliest TV experiences. I watched most of it from behind the couch. The Dino remake was a disappointment to say the least. I am looking forward to The King’s release.
I am also looking forward to what hopefully will come beyond. I am referring to the possible production of the Hobbit as a sequel to LOTR.
I am and have been a serious scholar involved in the study of Tolkein’s work since 1973. I will say up front that I enjoyed your version of the myth immensely. Every single person that worked on that project deserves congratulations and well done.
I recently attended the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference at Marquette University , Milwaukee WI, USA and became involved in discussions with several of the leading writer/experts on Tolkein’s work. There were a number of people there who had found their first taste of the Professor’s work in your work. There was a bit of mostly unspoken animosity toward these “movie people”. I approached a couple of the presenters during breaks and questioned them about their response to the films. I did this as by introducing myself as a “book & movie person. I detected a good deal of resentment in the responses I received.
“It’s a boy’s action adventure movie.” One man said. I pointed out that I had been involved with those fans that loved the films and that by far this group was made up disproportionately of women. His response was something to the effect that it was just a response to the “Hunks” cast in the leading roles. I actually laughed. These women are mostly in the age range of 30 to 60. Some had read the books, some had not: all of them are. He did not want to talk after that.
Some of the scholars fear that the popularization will diminish the stature of LOTR as literature. Some appear to be a bit possessive and don’t want to share. Others riled against “unnecessary’ story changes that were made by the films. I spoke on behalf of the idea that, as the storyteller you gave your version of the myth, and it was not necessary to judge one against the other but to appreciate each for what it was. I truly thank you for the years of your life that you put into this film.
Last but not least I am writing to share an insight that you may or may not take to heart. It involves an Idea about a possible structure for the script” The Hobbit” as a sequel for LOTR. Please do not run shrieking into the woods. I am sure you get thousands of suggestions both good and bad but please hear me out.
You should maximize the connection to LOTR: this could be done by setting up the body of the story as a flashback. The story could start in the shire at the end of The War of The Ring and be introduced in several possible ways by one or another of the Hobbits. This beginning could incorporate some unshown part of the LOTR story line and include cameos by some or all of the original actors. This action sequence could lead into the Hobbit, which could come back around again to LOTR. I offer this only out a deep feeling of gratitude and strange feeling of kinship. It would be truly remarkable to hear from you, but I consider this letter a message in a bottle.

Yours in Fellowship



P.S. I belong to a chapter of the Tolkien Society here in Minnesota. (Barry Osborne’s home). We are screening the Extended trilogy (got the rights from New Line) on the big screen on New Years Eve for about 1300 of our friends and family. It will be fun. Wish you could be here. It would be a hoot.
Note: I clipped out addresses and I am now 62 so that dates the note. I also put the pertinent text in bold.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jan 8 2011, 1:41am)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 8 2011, 2:03am


Views: 22369
Oh, well,

in that you are indeed correct.

I would go so far as to say that 'whiney' is to Guillermo as 'cuddly and loving' is to Gollum.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


lurtz2010
Rohan

Jan 8 2011, 2:23am


Views: 22327
If you wrote that letter then why are you dissappointed by this news? //

 


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 2:32am


Views: 24713
As I said earlier:

I have come to the opinion that the book can best be served by an adaption that makes it neither a prequel nor a sequel. I also said that I was ambivalent about the whole thing. It will all depend on how the story is handled. I am of two minds about a lot of things involved in the making of the Hobbit film. It really could go so many ways. I just do not want it to fail for stupid reasons like greed or ego. It will be harder to make great cinema with the play within the play structure, but it is possible.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 3:39am


Views: 22748
Oh no, I agree completely

Hollywood is completely nutty, and LA has it's less-than-savory areas, too!

While I want to enter the industry, there are many reasons why I want to be behind the scenes, not on screen, and I consider myself lucky that I was not born into the industry. It's really a hit or miss with childhood actors, and children born with parents in the industry.

However, I've met enough fans, and enough people in the industry, to know that both are eccentric in many similar ways... which is why I think I'll fit well, if I ever make it ;)

As for Sean, he was always... very blunt. Perhaps less humble than expected by society. But his heart seems to be in the right place, and that is all one can ask for.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


rings7
Rohan


Jan 8 2011, 5:15am


Views: 22433
So

basically PJ will do exactly what he's been advised not to do, which is to remind us that the Hobbit is in fact a prequel.

I have a mixed feelings. I don't know. I love the Hobbit. I think we all Tolkien fans and LOTR movies fans don't necessarily need to be reminded what the Hobbit is. Unsure


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 5:30am


Views: 21715
respectfully disagree

"Reading him talk about Tolkien's work so enthusiastically makes me doubtful of that single statement he made in that interview several years ago, when he said that he hated hairy feet or something like that. To be honest, I'd be even more inclined to trust del Toro with Tolkien's work than I would be to trust Jackson."

That's quite a statement. I think Peter Jackson went out of his way to let Tolkien be Tolkien. I guess we'll be playing the "what if" game for next two years..."Would GDT have been okay with _______________?" I guess I'm in the camp that was okay with GDT directing the Hobbit as long as Jackson was producing and screenwriting, but I wouldn't have been ok with GDT apart from Jackson, mainly for continiuity, but also because of their differences as directors. Jackson's films are bombastic and over-the-top. Jackson doesn't do subtle. I get the sense that he is a kid in a candy store and there's a sense of inbridled joy in the creating. The LOTR screenplays were surprisingly good-natured (from the director of Meet the Feebles it was a shock to me at least!) GDT excels also at what he does, but I don't know that I would implicitly trust him with the Hobbit. During the course of his posts here, on more than a few times, he would make remarks about what he believed was in the story that seemed gnostic and very different from anything Tolkien the Catholic would have intended. Even that statement about Plato's cave...it's just out of left field...I doubt Tolkien was doing anything platonic w/ Middle Earth...Lewis had more Plato than Tolkien and Tolkien loathed spiritual allegorizing. I didn't get the sense that del Toro got that. His posts were always laced with spiritual meanings that I didn't see as being compatible with Catholic Tolkien. With Jackson, I get the sense that he couldn't care less about overloading the films with spiritual meanings and would rather just tell a damn good story. Obviously they probably had their differences...but I'm not going to nitpick PJ's decisions because in my mind he's already proved himself. But then again, if we don't nitpick, this will be a dull 2 years >:-)

As far as GDT in Middle Earth, after The Hobbit, I would give him Children of Hurin and tell him to go wild. His natural sensibilities would be perfect for the story and he wouldn't have to worry about continuity because it takes place in a different age. I think he would be better than PJ at capturing Beleriand!


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 5:44am


Views: 21500
Gandalf to Balrog: "Why do I get the feeling you will be the death of me?"//

 


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 8 2011, 6:07am


Views: 24192
Really?

Peter has not always "been content to "let Tolkien be Tolkien" (shall I count the ways? Oh for that epic list by the Second Ager Angalacon The Black! And let others count the ways, ad nauseum!) . And I don't think he is prepared to be as faithful to Tolkien this time around either. Example that we know of already: Reports of Guillermo's reaction to re-reading the end of TH where Bilbo is unconscious through the Battle of Five Armies: he said in effect that that was such a fantastic, un-novel plotline, and "we musthave this in the film!"

Quick poll: how many of y'all beleive that Peter Jackson is going to have Bilbo waking up to find the Battle of Five Armies all over and he played no active part in it? Or is Peter going to go all Hollywood and have Bilbo take some Heroic Stand? Can you see Warner Brothers allowing that? The Big Action Scene and Our Hero gets no Money Shots?

And welcome to TORN!


(This post was edited by Sunflower on Jan 8 2011, 6:09am)


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 8 2011, 6:16am


Views: 23670
If so,

I find it curious that it wasn't corrected in the EE. A really striking bit of laziness on Peter and Co's part. And quite curious. Thanks for clearing that up!


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 8 2011, 6:19am


Views: 21742
Thanks for being understanding

I had a friend from LA once, and she told me a bit about the town. I've never been to yr part of the woods and hope to go someday! I'd confess I'd love to do the whole Hollywood Tourist thing (even though I know that many historical landmarks are in parts of toen that now are no longer so great, sadly.)

And good luck! I remember you and yr art. I think you'll go far.


The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 6:31am


Views: 22179
I'm afraid PJ will turn him into at least a bit of an "action-hobbit", sadly.//

 


The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 6:33am


Views: 22525
The couldn't have easily changed it for the EE, though.

That would have involved changing the last shot of the movie. And it is beautiful and wonderful, and while I watch the movie I don't really think about how upset the change makes me.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 6:36am


Views: 25198
really!

Yes, Jackson made changes to the books...I remember HATING the decision to cut Saruman's death out of ROTK and (still think) the scouring of the Shire was vital to the story. I'm not arguing about changes...no matter the director, millions of changes will have to be made in a film adaptation. The question is...which changes will make the film better and more engaging while allowing the source material to shine? I guess the majority of PJ's changes didn't bug me. Although I remember posting here the day I found out Saruman would be cut from ROTK and overreacting...saying PJ just kissed the chance of getting an oscar goodbye. (Umm...guess I was wrong..;))

It's probably just me but GDT just rubbed me the wrong way. He always had a little spiritual lesson for us all. Hey, I love Pan's Labyrinth but the gnostic little fairy tale it opens with is about as un-Tolkien as it gets and GDT seems very earnest about his beliefs. Which is fine but I guess I never quite trusted him to keep them out of the Hobbit. So PJ made changes but he seemed to always find ways to get some of Tolkien's great lines in the film..even if another character said them. I guess I never trusted GDT not to replace Tolkien's lines with his own pithy spiritual comments. "Remember Bilbo, this world is an illusion, only spirit matters." I guess I would be less irked at Bilbo slaying orcs in battle than Gandalf espousing neo-platonist philosophy.

Maybe it's just because I've just sat through Dawn Treader, where some mediocre screenwriters tried to "improve" Lewis. Having cheesy "Faith and Family" lines like "We have nothing if not belief." And "sometimes you just have to believe in these things." Blech. Lewis would stab his own hand before he let it write any tripe like that. Still bitter from that experience, I'd trust PJ to make the changes that have to be made, keep the heart of things and not try to slip in his own viewpoint as much as GDT would.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 6:47am


Views: 21165
is it that much of a stretch??

We'll get plenty of "action-hobbit" with the spiders in Mirkwood...by this time in the story is it really THAT much out of character? In the book, wasn't it told from Bilbo's POV? When he woke up the battle was pretty much over. You know that wouldn't fly in a big-budget adaptation...the ONE huge battle in the book goes unseen? I doubt PJ will have Bilbo on a white horse leading the army of men. He'll probably just slip on the ring and comically pick off orcs. Maybe he'll save a dwarf's life or something. By this point in the book it wouldn't be out of character at all.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 6:48am


Views: 20496
A couple of questions:

Just what do you refer to in your use of the term gnostic?

And to what do you refer in noting GdT's "
little spiritual lesson"? Please elaborate.



Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 6:53am


Views: 22166
I certainly hope not.

They should at least retire to the Green Dragon for a few rounds and a dance.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 7:02am


Views: 20829
...

Gnostic = neo-platonist...material world an illusion, spirit is real. Lewis goes there with his "shadowlands" analogy and in the last Narnia book...somewhat. I've never seen Tolkien go there, and he sneered at any attempt to "spiritualize" his stories. There are many variations on gnosticism but they all seem to hold esoteric knowledge above sensory experience.

As for GDT's little spiritual lessons - how do I do a search of his posts..? I'l dig them up and give you examples if you want. In the quote above, he almost does with his Plato's cave analogy...i.e. Tolkien must go OUTSIDE "Plato's cave" and construct his world. If you know Plato's cave and what it refers to, baiscally he is saying that Tolkien must travel beyond the illusion of his senses and construct Middle Earth. That's GDT's point of view, but I don't share it. I don't particularly want to go dig up old posts but I remember wincing a lot reading his posts because of these spiritual viewpoints he presents as "just so."


Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 9:31am


Views: 21062
Balin's tomb

The fact that only Balin's tomb was shown in the LOTR films is, for me, one of the greatest hints for the need for some 'bridging work' to be done in these new films. If the story of the Hobbit is stuck to rigidly, we see a major character from the first two films ending happily then suddely turning up dead in the third film, in a different location hundreds of miles away with no explanation. I don't think Jackson et al will do that.

Some 'filling in' of the time period between the end of the Hobbit and FOTR is inevitable, I feel. I'm fairly certain that's where the Drogo stuff fits, and would not be surprised to see other stuff there as well as the Balin stuff.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bound
Rohan


Jan 8 2011, 10:11am


Views: 20991
Best example...

Of Peter's techniques being over used is in King Kong. Where Jack Black tells Adrian Brody the name of the Island they are heading to... that scene is so over the top I cringe and laugh at the same time...

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


flying fish
Bree

Jan 8 2011, 10:12am


Views: 20403
Why not run with the book version?

I have no idea which post to reply to, so I've picked one at random.

I don't see why a pre-LOTR events sequence including Frodo at the beginning of TH couldn't be made to fit. In the book, Bilbo tells Frodo the true story of the ring soon after he arrives at Bag End, as Frodo tells Gandalf in "A Long-Expected Party". The Red Book is partly written at the time of LOTR because Merry has read about the ring prior to Frodo's flight.


For continuity in the movie-verse one could have it that as Frodo and Bilbo are planning the said Party, Bilbo sits Frodo down, pulls out the ring and says words to the effect of "It's time you knew the truth".... cue story. This would also then set up Frodo and Gandalf's opening scene in Fellowship, where Frodo comments that Bilbo is up to something, and that Gandalf knows about it. An idea that Gandalf then relays back to Bilbo. Okay, so everyone's 10yrs older, but it's not impossible.


Bound
Rohan


Jan 8 2011, 10:19am


Views: 22866
UPDATE

UPDATE: Less than 24 hours after Deadline suggested that Elijah Wood would be returning, ComingSoon.net has received confirmation from the actor's reps that Wood will indeed be returning and that he's confirmed to star in the film. They've also informed us that Wood and comedian Eddie Izzard will be starring in the SKY TV mini-series based on Robert Louis Stevenson's literary classic "Treasure Island," playing Ben Gunn. It will be directed by Steve Barron, who directed the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as well as some of the classic music videos of the '80s including "Video Killed the Radio Star."

Earlier, TheOneRing.net suggested that Wood, at least, is a near certainty and offered some spoilers as to how his appearance is planned to play out, which you can read about by clicking here.
Read more: UPDATE: Elijah Wood Confirmed for The Hobbit - ComingSoon.net http://www.comingsoon.net/...=73066#ixzz1ARCdMtcP

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 10:32am


Views: 21923
The bridge film is dead.

Now we are going to set a Lord of the Rings stage on which to play out the story of The Hobbit. If the wrapper gets too big the story at the center will be diminished. I really want the Hobbit's heart and soul. The wrapper is just gloss. It is nice but it does not have to be there. The Hobbit is enough.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 10:36am


Views: 22603
Guillermo's tentacles are only an ugly rumor. //

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 10:42am


Views: 22258
Now we know who is replacing Bard for the killing of Smaug!

I just don't know how they are going to work out the time line, but I am sure they will have thought of something. Also if all else fails they can always ignore the discrepancy. Evil

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 10:56am


Views: 21342
I know the bridge film is dead

But there are still stories that need to be bridged. Just because we are not getting a 3 hour film on the time between TH and FOTR, does not mean we will be getting nothing.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 11:05am


Views: 20959
I did not say that such events would not be drug in.

I said that they are not necessary. I also said that the more unnecessary events that get drug in the more "The Hobbit" is diminished. The Hobbit is not a chapter in the Lord of the Rings. To force it to become one misses entirely what the book is.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 11:13am


Views: 21387
Balin

Do you think the story of Balin is unneccessary (see my point above)?

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 11:25am


Views: 20868
Bridge film is dead, but

The bridge-material is somewhat (?) alive. If you would believe the reddit chap, we have expanded Gollum material and that kind of stuff. Like other Im hoping for some dwarf-bridging (like backstory on Moria)



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 11:46am


Views: 38788
The telling of the failed effort to colonize Moria by Balin & company

is not necessary for the telling of The Hobbit. If it had been I am sure the Professor would have included it. The existance of Aragorn in the guise of Estel at Rivendel is not necessary to the telling of the Hobbit. Even the action of the White Wizards against the Necromancer does not need to be elaborated to tell the story of the Hobbit. Any and all of these things may be included in the Hobbit movies but they will not add to the story that Tolkien wrote and published as the Hobbit. However the additions may serve other ends that some (but not all) might deem desirable.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 11:48am


Views: 24602
It seems like a deliberate change to me

Sam never moves into Bag End in the movie, perhaps because in the few scenes they had to work with, they wanted to show Frodo alone and withdrawn ("How do you pick up the threads of an old life?"), wandering around in that empty, echoing, unnaturally tidy Bag End.

I figure we're meant to imagine that the Sackville-Bagginses inherit Bag End after Frodo leaves, and that Sam never gave up his simple life as a gardener or his humble hobbit-hole. There's a certain bitter-sweetness to that, really - different from Tolkien's imagined rise in social status for Sam and family, but then Sam never takes over from Frodo as the "true hero" of the story in the film as he does in the book. And the social status thing is much less important in the films anyway - Sam doesn't need a big imposing home to show he's grown in stature, I think it's that moment when he leaves the other hobbits and goes up to make his move on Rosie that tells us he's not the shy, retiring hobbit he used to be!

Tongue

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



macfalk
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 11:55am


Views: 38923
Kangi

Admit it, your fanfic part of the brain wants this, and more Evil



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:00pm


Views: 21306
I am not trying to champion a purist approach to the Hobbit.

I just want to make the point that this is the Hobbit and not Lord of the Rings chapter one. It deserves some respect. Saying that Elijah Wood will star in the Hobbit (as I have read on several websites)makes my concern clear. There are those that hope for that which I fear most. i want The Hobbit. I can accept a bit of nostalgic framing to set it up and a bit of background story to make it even more meaningful but only a bit. If the set up and background becomes the story then I will not live to see the Hobbit done justice on the big screen.
I want the heart and soul of the Hobbit. A little frosting is OK, but only a little.


Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 12:01pm


Views: 21463
Balin in Moria not necessary for the Hobbit

True, but most definitely IS necessary for the films to make sense as a quintet. Galadriel is not necessary for the Hobbit, but has been cast. Drogo has been cast, not in The Hobbit. We never see or hear Radagast in The Hobbit, but a well known actor has been cast. We know these things. It's clear that we are going to be seeing more than just the Hobbit story, and, imo, the reason for that is to tell the whole story over 5 films. I cannot see that these two new films will only tell the Hobbit story. In fact, It's obvious that they won't by the castings.

Jackson et al made the first three films for people who have, and have not read the books. Balin going to Moria may not need to be explained for the Hobbit story per se, and not for readers of Tolkien's works. For the movies though, that has to be explained. It makes no sense otherwise.

It's pretty clear to me why the bridge film concept was abandoned, but it was abandoned as a film. I think some of that material will still be included, and the castings support that.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi

(This post was edited by Bran on Jan 8 2011, 12:03pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:05pm


Views: 21311
The letter I quoted in an earlier post was from the fanfic part of my brain.

Seven or so years of thought has helped the hormones settle and self examination mellow my desires.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 12:55pm


Views: 20936
It would take one line of dialog

added to the final scene of the book (You know where Balin and Gandalf visit Bilbo at Bag End some years after Bilbo's return) to completely set up the Moria colony. Balin says: "By the way me and some of the boys are going back to Khazad-dum to set up shop."

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 1:00pm


Views: 22427
Let's agree to differ!

Smile

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 1:35pm


Views: 21358
Perhaps film-Frodo liked to live alone

and Sam moved in to Bag End shortly following the end of the third film? But not the Sackville-Bagginses... no!


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 1:42pm


Views: 21760
There's an easy solution to this

At some point in The Hobbit, while the Company is travelling, Balin walks alongside Bilbo and they start chatting. This will help to establish Balin as Bilbo's best friend amongst the Dwarves. They end up discussing what they want to do with themselves once they get their share of Smaug's treasure (reminding the audience of the film's purpose). Balin mentions that he'd like to take a colony of Dwarves and restore the abandoned underground city of Khazad-dûm to its former glory.

There's no need for Balin to mention this in the scene at the very end of the second film where he and Gandalf visit Bag End – The Hobbit shouldn't end on such a downbeat note reminding us that there is plenty of death and failure to come.


Bran
Lorien

Jan 8 2011, 2:08pm


Views: 21116
I agree with that

Flagg, the point about the 'end' of film 2. In the original film appendices, the film makers talked about why they couldn't put the Saruman scene after the End of Helm's deep. In essence, it's more story after the film has ended, and that's a bad idea. I'm not sure how, but any exposition leading us into film 3 (FOTR) may well have to be done earlier. It's certainly interesting to speculate how that will be achieved.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 2:15pm


Views: 23298
I wouldn't say

that Jackson 'went out of his way to let Tolkien be Tolkien' – he did quite a good job of keeping the films faithful to the books, but many changes were made that were not needed, some of them very un-Tolkien. I think Jackson's trilogy is excellent – perhaps even a masterpiece – but it is by no means a perfect adaptation of the books. We've already seen three Jackson-directed, Jackson-scripted, Jackson-produced Tolkien films, and I was quite excited to see something somewhat different – I was not only OK with the GdT/PJ team, I was highly enthusiastic about it. I would have been just as enthusiastic if del Toro had been given free reign and allowed to go crazy with The Hobbit – perhaps even more enthusiastic. I don't get why people often say they want Jackson to direct 'for continuity' – they seem to have a different definition in mind for the term than I do. If the characters are all portrayed by the same actors, and if the returning sets and props and costumes all look the same as they looked before, that's continuity. Different storytelling techniques or camera angles don't break the cohesion of a fictional universe.

I think you are misinterpreting del Toro's statements regarding Tolkien's work. He did not say that Tolkien was a neo-platonist or that he used spiritual allegory; he was comparing Tolkien to the man in the story of the cave. By the shadows on the wall, Tolkien was able to sense an other world – what he himself called the 'secondary universe' – beyond the mundane reality to which we are all confined. Del Toro's comments related to the magnitude and quality of Tolkien's writings, not to their spiritual or allegorical significance. He made a number of other statements in the quote I posted, reflecting his deep knowledge and familiarity with the myths Tolkien drew from. He expresses what I think is a genuine understanding of The Hobbit's core themes – greed, war, hoarding, the loss of innocence – not platonism and Catholic allegory!

I have no doubt that Guillermo would have produced an astounding rendition of The Hobbit – I don't think I'll ever completely get over his departure. But one thing I totally agree with you on is The Children of Húrin...


Eärwen Swan Maiden Of Alqualondë
Bree


Jan 8 2011, 3:46pm


Views: 21870
Hi Ataahua!! *waves*

I emerge from the dark caves of Lurkdom...pale...wide-eyed...and ready for redemptionAngelic



Peek-A-Boo!


The Party Tree
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 4:11pm


Views: 21059
According to what Frodo is writing in the Red Book in those final scenes...

...Sam was elected Mayor, all the same (I'm not absolutely sure on this because his arm is covering the book, but it seems to say):

"Samwise Gamgee was elected...[hand blocks page]
...Hobbiton, and though it took [???]
courage, he finally asked [???]
of fair Rosie Cotton [etc]."

Although I suppose that was just a little added gift to book fans and we shouldn't read into it. But I can't really accept the Sackville-Bagginses living in Bag End. That's just too much.


(This post was edited by The Party Tree on Jan 8 2011, 4:12pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 5:34pm


Views: 20882
I was pointing out that many of these side issues can be taken care of inside the story of The Hobbit.

No need for time eating side trips when a bit of good writing takes care of the whole process. I only picked the books end scene because it exists and could be used as an example.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 6:17pm


Views: 20849
"Star" in the film?

I'd hope that by 'starring' they mean 'maybe 5 minutes of screentime'. Because, well, the Hobbit stars Bilbo. I don't mind if it co-stars Gandalf with the whole White Council/Dol Guldur debacle, but... I hope that the 'future' scenes are limited.

My LiveJournal ~ My artwork and photography

NARF since age 8, when I refused to read the Hobbit because the cover looked boring and icky.


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 8 2011, 7:11pm


Views: 21557
I think and hope

... the references to Elijah Wood 'starring' in The Hobbit are just a bit of lazy journalism which started with someone who knew nothing of the books and assumed 'hobbit' = 'Frodo', and repeated by others.

I can't conceive of any way in which Frodo could have a starring role in these films - that's Bilbo's job.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 8 2011, 7:54pm


Views: 21664
The way it works:

Any named cast appearing before the proper credit crawl -- sorted by size or importance of role and/or by seniority -- would rightly be described as "starring" in a film. Usually we see big names with small roles included at the end of the list following the words "and" or "and featuring." Likewise when a relatively unknown or young actor has a big part their name usually appears at the end of the list after the words "and introducing." Regardless, if they are listed before the crawl, they are a star of that work.

Don't quote me of course but no matter the size of his role, Wood is entitled to the descriptor "starring in" or "star of" because of his status, seniority, and/or the contribution he has already made to the franchise.

In common usage (ie among fans), if he is just one of many named cast members we might refer to him as "a star of The Hobbit movies." However, if his part is small, tangential, or otherwise insignificant we might call him "featured" or in "cameo" both of which acknowledge his star status. Conversely, even in common usage he would never (correctly) be called a "featured extra" or "extra."


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jan 8 2011, 7:58pm)


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 8:17pm


Views: 21238
dormouse

Yeah, a lot of newspapers/sites are just recycling the same thing all over again.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 8 2011, 8:23pm


Views: 38775
I'd forgotten that Sam becoming Mayor

is in the movie's Red Book. It's true it's just a glimpse, but I figure if it's there it must mean something...

But Sam doesn't need to move into Bag End to be Mayor - it's more important, I'd say, that he starts to take charge in the way that we see him doing when he goes to talk to Rosie. Once he's taken that one courageous step, he's on his way to greater things.


In Reply To
But I can't really accept the Sackville-Bagginses living in Bag End. That's just too much.


Well we're never told that, so no need to accept it! Cool I know a lot of people have made up endings that suit them better, such as Sam finding the deeds to Bag End inside the Red Book, and moving in after the end of the movie. I guess it's left open enough that we can imagine whatever we like.

I suppose I I imagine it different ways depending what mood I'm in, but I think it's quite possible to imagine that the Sackville-Bagginses got Bag End. Sam's reward is his happy family, and I think they'd be just as happy in that cosy hobbit-hole as they would in Bag End. But I bet Mayor Sam shook up those smug hobbits, like the S-Bs, the Proudfeet, and the hobbits with the pumpkin, once he got to be Mayor!

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 8:39pm


Views: 37311
case in point...

There were choices PJ made that I probably would pulled the trigger on, yet he backed off because it wasn't true to Tolkien. The case in point is your avatar! If I were directing I would have done it! To have Sauron come out at the end like that...I would have done it. I'm surprised PJ stopped himself. Same with Arwen at Helm's Deep, etc.

I don't know...I guess it's just when GDT waxes philosophical it's like listening to Bono talk about world peace. For me at least. I guess my sensibilites just naturally lean toward a Peter Jackson. I like GDT in smaller doses.

What irks me is what seems like a measuring rod on this board - "Would GDT have signed off on this?" I don't necessarily think the standard for validity is GDT's opinion. He's entitled to it, but I trust Peter Jackson. That's what my posts are responding to. The unspoken assumption that GDT signing off on something makes it legitimate.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 8:58pm


Views: 30584
According to the EE appendices

Jackson removed the 'Aragorn vs Sauron' fight because using fourteen-foot bad guys in suits of armour as the climax for an entire epic trilogy just didn't work very well. He didn't remove that sequence out of a sense of loyalty to Tolkien – if that was the reason, it never would have made it past the storyboards. Once the battle had been filmed and intercut with the Cracks of Doom sequence, the filmmakers saw that it simply wasn't working very well, so they digitally replaced Sauron with a mountain troll.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 9:27pm


Views: 33690
let me check

Ok - let me check the appendices on that point. I specifically remember the words being said "It just wasn't Tolkien" but I'll defer if it's not there. I thought they said it was because they didn't want everything Frodo went through to hinge on a battle between Aragorn and Sauron, because that was anti-climactic, trivialized Frodo's sufferings and wasn't Tolkien.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 9:38pm


Views: 34633
I think the other reasons

(that it was anti-climactic and that it trivialised Frodo's quest) were probably more influential in the decision to cut that sequence than the fact that it wasn't very Tolkienesque. There are plenty of aspects to the films that are very unlike Tolkien's writings.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 8 2011, 9:48pm


Views: 33791
question

Any film will be very unlike Tolkien's writings. Just so I have a sense of where your coming from, what changes would you have made/reversed to make the films better?


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jan 8 2011, 9:51pm


Views: 33972
exact quote...

"It was not what Tolkien imagined, and we realized that was actually totally demeaning to what Aragorn was doing."


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 10:03pm


Views: 30855
Well

There are plenty of newly-added sequences in the films that I just didn't want, such as Aragorn falling off a cliff in The Two Towers, apparently dying, then turning out to be okay after all. I would have significantly decreased the length of the Battle for Helm's Deep, because in retrospect, having seen the whole trilogy, it seems like Minas Tirith-lite. Jackson's Faramir was a very different character than Tolkien's – that change didn't bother me personally, but many people hated it. Much criticism has also been levelled at Jackson's reworking of the Shelob sequence, which has Gollum manipulating Frodo into sending Sam packing. There was the simplification of previously complex characters like Saruman and Denethor. And of course there's the very unsubtle, physical, gigantic flaming eyeball attached to the top of Barad-dûr. I also missed the Scouring of the Shire, which Tolkien himself said was a necessary and integral part of the story.

I would have reversed (or at least reconsidered) all of the above if I had been in charge – some changes go against the spirit of what Tolkien wrote, and some I just don't like. On the whole, I am very happy with what Jackson did with the trilogy – but I still wish we were getting a different director's take on Middle-earth for once.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 10:08pm


Views: 34026
Well they were hardly going to say something like

'We filmed the whole sequence, then realised it looked silly so we decided to cut it.' Why would they, when they can give a reason that makes them sound concerned about staying close to the book? I think this is a bit like that time they fired Stuart Townsend 'because he was too young'. These explanations shouldn't always be taken at face value.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 8 2011, 10:26pm


Views: 34032
But sometimes they should


Quote
These explanations shouldn't always be taken at face value.


The quote Mooseboy posted is hardly the only instance of PJ, Phillipa, Richard Taylor and many others associated with the LOTR movies talking about the care they took to 'get back to Tolkien.' Taken in the context of all the other instances, I think it *can* be taken at face value.

Did they sometimes stray outside of what Tolkien would have done? Of course they did. I don't think anyone can argue that they didn't. Still, I think for every instance where they made significant changes, there are many more where they took the greatest care they could to be as true as they could to the books.



Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



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Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 8 2011, 10:31pm


Views: 32415
I meant no disrespect to them

but I think if the scene they filmed with Aragorn and Sauron had turned out really fantastic, then they would have included it in spite of its differences from the books. Faithfulness to Tolkien was probably a factor in the decision, but I don't think it was the only one.


Junesong
Rivendell


Jan 8 2011, 11:34pm


Views: 24958
Lets also not forget

That they were trying to make the best movie they could. And there are some excellent and integral parts of Tolkien's books that just don't work as well in a movie. The scouring of the shire is a great example of this. It's one of the most potent chapters in the book, to have Frodo come back from the cracks of doom to find the same evil has come even to the shire.

But it would kill the movie. Especially a movie that necessitates a lot of endings as it is - lots of plot to tie up etc, to have the Scouring left in would have been very anticlimactic.

In so many situations any attempt to transfer Tolkien to the screen must be purchased with some amount of unfaithfulness to the text. It's usually only the geography, and the "iconic moments" that can remain exactly as Tolkien described. And even then everyone's imaginations work differently.

I'm not too worried. Jackson and co seem to try and be as faithful to Tolkien as possible while keeping priority number one making the best movie possible. That compromise worked well enough for me for the trilogy.

"Tim... Canterbury... Canterbury Tales... Chaucer... Shakespeare."


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 9 2011, 12:31am


Views: 22857
I think

The only way Scouring of the Shire could have worked: if LOTR would have been made as a TV-series with 1 hour long episodes, so it could have an episode of it's own.



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


nobofthepony
Lorien


Jan 9 2011, 12:51am


Views: 21989
I concur

Reading your post I realize that Jackson's LOTR is the one thing in this world that I am a complete fanboy about. At the time though, I remembered cursing him for not leaving in Saruman's death and the mouth of Sauron...but looking back, I wouldn't change the films at all. I would LOVE to see another director take on Tolkien in the future but I can't say I'm disappointed he's doing the Hobbit. Having Frodo at the beginning of the film doesn't bother me personally...it would be great to see GDT take on Bereliand but I doubt the Tolkien estate would allow it...


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 1:25am


Views: 22856
Sam and his family were

only visiting the Gaffer at #3 Bagshot Row at the end of Return of he King. They lived up on the hill in Bag End.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 1:34am


Views: 24779
Oh, well, welcome to TORn then Bran

as for keeping things in order, near the top right of your screen you will see a button that either says "View Flat Mode" or "View Threaded." Click on it if it says "View Threaded" and the thread will change to a branch-like set up. In Threaded mode, though you can only see the content of one post at a time, you can see the direction the main thread (conversation) and side discussions are going. It is also easier to target your replies so they are more likely to be read by the member whose post you are commenting on.

In short, Flat Mode sorts the conversation by date and time while Threaded sorts posts into linear conversations and it's tangents (aka asides, side discussions, sub-threads) such as this one Wink

In both Threaded and Flat Mode if you are not sure who is responding to whom you can trace a comment to the post that inspired it by clicking the blue "In reply to" tag next to the subject line (aka post heading).


macfalk
Valinor


Jan 9 2011, 1:52am


Views: 23655
Hint to Bran:

Flat mode is better.

Evil



The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.


titanium_hobbit
Rohan

Jan 9 2011, 3:26am


Views: 23625
yes yes yes!

I love that idea!

Except, he would have read riddles in the dark, and isn't he fairly clueless about where the Ring comes from until Gandalf fills him in? (someone with better movie knowledge, or book knowledge, please fill me in!)

Also, what about the white council stuff?

Love the tie-in idea though!


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 3:42am


Views: 35110
No-no Threaded always!

Evil

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Ardamírë
Valinor

Jan 9 2011, 4:27am


Views: 32714
don't like it

I absolutely hate this idea. I would have been fine with seeing Frodo in a sort of epilogue, but not this. I would so much rather that the two hobbit films be set in the present and stand on their own feet, not be forced to be seen through the lens of LOTR. I'm all for connecting the two stories, but this just seems like a gratuitous way to shove cameos into the hobbit.


Frodosfriend
Rivendell

Jan 9 2011, 4:36am


Views: 31680
Well this changes everything

I don't know if I like this news or not, it gave me a knot in my stomach so maybe I'm not too keen but I guess I'll learn to like it. As good as it will be to see Frodo again I always imagined these movies to be stand alone. I really hope the whole movie isn't narrated by Frodo or anyone else. Oh well bring on the next big news.


Ruijor
Rohan


Jan 9 2011, 5:33am


Views: 30161
Call Guiness World Of Records!

as this is turning into a hyper-casted kind of blockbuster as never seen before! Cool


Lindele
Gondor


Jan 9 2011, 7:00am


Views: 32625
Thanks Silverlode

I am angered easily by naysayers. I trust PJ and Weta's filmmaking abilities on the same level that I trust Tolkiens writing abilities. And therefore, i trust their decisions.


LoremIpsum
Lorien


Jan 9 2011, 8:01am


Views: 31971
I agree

and I also think that by tying the Hobbit movies with LOTR they have a great chance of enhancing the story and making Bilbo's journey more powerful than it is in the book. I always thought that Jackson's greatest strength as a filmmaker is foreshadowing and creating a sense of inevitable doom, so I rather can't wait to see what he does with the one ring in the Hobbits.

*runs away and hides*Sly


(This post was edited by LoremIpsum on Jan 9 2011, 8:02am)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 9 2011, 10:50am


Views: 44822
If that's not Sam's own door closing

at the very end of the movie, I think the sense of bittersweet homecoming expressed in the words "Well, I'm back" would be lost. To me, whether or not Sam inherits Bag End is secondary to the knowledge that he "inherits" the life that Frodo's sacrifice has bought ("...you have so much to be, and to do. Your part in the story will go on.") The last scene is about coming home, and starting to live that life.

I can imagine that Sam found out after this that Frodo had left him Bag End, but reading the scene as if he already lived there, and that when he closes the yellow door he's not in his own home, would just spoil the scene for me.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 11:02am


Views: 31945
14 foot bad guys

They may come up against that same problem again, depending on how and if the cover Dol Guldur.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 11:06am


Views: 31490
Aragorn and the cliff

I never bought the reasons for Aragorn falling from the cliff either. There was no need for it, and I didn't like it. I didn't particularly like some of the Legolas stuff either, particularly the snowboarding, and JRD's Gimli grated at times, especially the Dwarf tossing and swimming nonsense.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 11:13am


Views: 31231
SirDennis, Macfalk

Thanks for that. I've tried the various formats, but still struggle. I don't want to come on and start criticising, it's fine. It would be nice if there was a 'quote' option, so it's immediately clear who one is responding to, or indeed a 'multiquote' option, which I would have used in responding to you both at the same time, but I can live with it.

I've lurked for many years, btw.

For anyone who's interested, I live in Wales and, spend my summers in Dale. The real Dale!

Cheers.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 11:18am


Views: 32126
Tying in The Hobbit with LOTR

Tolkien himself did this, don't forget. He originally wrote the Hobbit as a stand alone book, then went back and changed it so that it fitted in with LOTR. He then went further, in The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales, to explain how the events in the Hobbit came about, and explained what went on to make them happen.

Whilst it is clear that the story originally started out as a single tale, it's very, very clear that Tolkien saw this tale as part of the whole picture, one piece in the jigsaw puzzle. To my mind, it's absolutely fine to replicate that in the films.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


carrioncrow
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 2:19pm


Views: 29273
and then...

and then he wisely gave up on trying to make THE HOBBIT something it wasn't. The End.

until now


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 2:36pm


Views: 32690
Well he didn't need to

Having altered the Hobbit from the original, and then added to the story in LOTR, UT and TS, the tale was complete.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 5:20pm


Views: 51297
You are free to believe what ever you want as am I.

Bag End belonged to Sam & Family at the end of the book and I like it the way The Professor told it much better than PJ's revision.

"And so it was settled. Sam Gamgee married Rose Cotton in the Spring of
1420, which was also famous for its weddings, and they came and lived at Bag
End. And if Sam thought himself lucky, Frodo knew that he was more lucky
himself; for there was not a hobbit in the Shire that was looked after with such
care. When the labours of repair had all been planned and set going he took to a
quiet life, writing a great deal and going through all his notes."

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket

(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Jan 9 2011, 5:30pm)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 6:25pm


Views: 29091
Not so much belief as a matter of perspective --

It is established that Lady FarFromHome's knowledge of the books is firm and her observations on Tolkien's work often profound.

However, if I may go out on a limb once more, her perspective seems to be that it is important that the movies remain true to themselves, regardless of any deviation from Tolkien's written version of events. I might add, this perspective seems to be shared by many around here.

But you are correct that we are all entitled to our own beliefs. It is interesting how both works (PJ's and Tolkien's) spark our imaginations, wondering about and filling in gaps before, during, and after the tales are told.


Junesong
Rivendell


Jan 9 2011, 6:45pm


Views: 41438
I wish there was a like option like facebook

because I would like the hell out of your post Bran!

I totally agree!

I've hung out on TORN for long enough to know the very loud dissenting opinion of fans of The Hobbit who are mad that the film won't be a stand alone story like the book is. They are worried that the filmmakers or the *evil* studio are trying to piggyback The Hobbit onto the shoulders of the trilogy for more $ or whatever but that doesn't hold much weight with me.

The fact is that The Hobbit is not a stand alone story anymore - in any form. Even the book has been altered since it's 1937 publication and the story has been absorbed into the amazing mythos of Tolkien's universe.

To not bring this into the movies would be a huge mistake - it makes the story even more epic and it allows for a more grown up tone to the whole thing.

They are still telling Bilbo's story - the casting clearly proves this - but they are going to do it in a way that brings more of Tolkien's Middle Earth to life!

If you want a faithful stand alone Hobbit movie watch the Rankin Bass cartoon - it's actually still pretty good even after all these years! (Even without Beorn)

But we have two years to wait and it's clear as a button now that Jackson and co are making The Extended Hobbit (if you will) so I wonder how much longer we're still going to be hearing the fan backlash of "I wish they hadn't" - hopefully not for the whole two years!

"Tim... Canterbury... Canterbury Tales... Chaucer... Shakespeare."


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 7:07pm


Views: 31414
Bag End

In the 'Tale of the Years' Sam is still living in Bag End. There's a passage which mentions him riding out from there to go to Gondor to see Aragorn. I also thought there was a passage somewhere which refers to Frodo giving Sam the keys to Bag End, although I cannot for the moment remember which text it is in. It may even be in a version in 'The History of Middle Earth'.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2011, 7:21pm


Views: 28246
I think that was in Sauron Defeated

It was a sort of epilogue chapter that Tolkien cut from Return of the King, if I recall correctly.


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 7:27pm


Views: 31090
Quite possibly

I get confused, especially after reading 'The History of Middle Earth'. I thought I recalled a paragraph or two about Gandalf explaining his thoughts behind killing Smaug to prevent Sauron using him, but I cannot find where I read that either!

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 9 2011, 7:50pm


Views: 30726
That was The Quest of Erebor

from Unfinished Tales.


Sunflower
Valinor

Jan 9 2011, 7:51pm


Views: 28755
"Naysayers"

This is more or less a reply to you agreeing with you--but I'd like to address our new friends like Bran, Nob, Arda etc

Some of us are not "naysayers" as much as merely VERY concerned, and there are good reasons. I consider myself neither "naysayer" nor cheerleader--my position might be a bit complicated.

Tying TH inside an LOTR "candy-wrapper" Prologue/Epilogue, with a bit of TH "voice-oever" narration by Elijah, does not concern me. If it is done carefully and jusiciously, in that it ensures a smooth flowing of the story, is fine with me. I was always of the opinion that some sort of "tie-in" with LOTR was inevitable, on tghe part of the film-makers--a film franchise/story being much different than the book. And maybe it is for the best, since the four screenwriters had a much more difficult task this time around. At first blush, adapting LOTR seems like the harder task, b/c of its massive scope. But it was a single version of a single dtory, written for adults, with elements that made it more adaptable for modern audiences. But with TH we have a conundrum: which "Hobbit" to use? The 1937 origional fireside-tale for 6 yr old children, which the world fell in love with and which is the basis for every school stage play worldwide down the years, OR Tolkien's later revision of his middle-aged years, seemingly tyoing in closer with LOTR? With its more "adult" tone? (We shall see if this is the case.) And how to sneak in any Unfinished Tales material, if they decided to do so, and I think they may have tried to? SO there isn't even one version of TH.

(Makes me wonder: if the world had been introduced to Tolkien's later version first,, would TH have been as beloved as it has been? The charming sugar-coated tale is qwuite complelling. When you get down to barss tacks, TH is a pretty grim tale.)

I always thought that a happy medium could be reached: the story beginning light-hearted and whimscial as LOTR did, with the Party, and getting darker. Are people upset that this seems to confirm a darker more LOTR-like tone and look and feel to TH, no "whimsy" (and that is a loaded word), that this means the film version of the 1937 Hobbit is dust, or that they don't want a repeat of Jackson's LOTR?

Myself, I had no concerns about the story at the scriptwriting stage. I have no doubts about the team of Peter, Fran, Philippa, and Guillermo to craft a compelling and awe-inspiring tale, every bit as faiythful to the spirit and heart and soul of Tolkien's tale. And I can tolerate some slight deviatins. What concerns me though are elements of the storytelling every bit as important as words on the page. And thismay interfere with the effect of the words on the page.

Statements like" I trust Peter's writing/story-telling abilities as much as I trust Tolkien's writing abilities" are a bit (pardon me, I am not trying to put down anbybody, just stating an opinion) very presumptuous. You have to remember that no film is independant of the times it is birthed in--it does not exist in blank space. Many factors go in to it to make it what it is. TH has had a long and torturous history even before it was green-lit, and thingsd are not going to get easier from here.

The thing that concerns me is that we are working wigth a different person in a different era. 10-12 yrs ago The Peter Jackson that we fell in love with was a solid film-maker with a string of middle-brow "hits" in his pocket: little film gems that had placved him just bubbling under the radar,. He was in that best of times for a film-maker, as for a muscian, in some aspects: when you are enough in the spotlight for people to be noting what you do, but you still have the freedom from heat to be allowed that innicebtly questing spirit, that senese of fun and excitement and adventure. The Peter Jackson we came to know and love was a jolly "hobbit" who was building his kingdom down in NZ and still looked upon the world with a wondering eye--in his film at least. Even HC had its sense of playful mischeviousness in the midde passages of the film. Then the "Beautiful madness" of 2001-03 came and went and we saw him transform before our eyes. Mr Cere I remember wrote a fascinating article about "the new Peter Jackson" a few yrs back. (I widh a link could be found).

But that was before King Kong, before The Lovely Bones, and before all the manifold troubles of TH's birth. Before he became a Mogul. In some aspects, he has not changed--less so than you would think. He is a fascinating dicotomy--a lot more is hidden behind that placid experior than you think,, and maybe the Kiwis have seen more of it than the world at large. Some would argue that this sideof him came out with a bang during the recent labor dispute, and maybe it did, but I think there was also a lot of genuine reactionary and well-deserved angler there.

I think there were many reasons why Jackson did not origionally want to direct. (and maybe why he still doesn;t.) Fear of haivng to top himself (and how much more is that fear now, it will permeate every hour in the editing room). And a desire, perhaps, to hand Middle-Earth off into different hands. Not a passing of the torch as much as a sense that the franchise did indeed need fresh new blood. Many of us don't as much "defer to Del Toro';s opinions" as much as continue to remember and pay homage to the fact that for more than *two years* he was Peter's hand-picked DIRECTOR of this massive project, and such a deciusion is not made lightly. Someday we might ask Peter point-blank why he wanted to hand Middle-Earth off to someone else, at least in the director's chair. Which is a HUGE deal.

It is a director's ethis that pervades an entire project. Even if he (or she) did niot write the thing, it is their look, their vision, that shows up onscreen, if they are an illustragtor it is their vision you see. It;s their DoP, their Art Directors, their production design and FX teams,. It's their worldview that we experience. It's any last-minute script revisions that we get in the final cut (and we know how Peter works on this:). I think that having Del Toro collaberating on the writing phase was the BEST thing that could have happened to Peter, as it reminded him of why he fell in klove with the moviesL: he rediscovered (from what we we have heard of the collabveration) the sense of FUN and JOY, that sense of chilld-like excitement, that it is so easy to lose wheb one becomes a MOGUL--and when your worldview and film-making aesthtics are set in stone,. Let's hopw these elements of the process will survive onscreen.

NOw we have a Jackson who has been gthrough, for better or worse, Pelennor Fields. It reminds me of how the film Mery and Puippin remained hobbit-like ungtil that final battle, which changed them forever. Now Jackson is sans his "brother in arms" director (for whatever reason, though I think it had a lot more to do than scheduling conflicts), and permanently scarred by the Pelennor Fileds of the labor dispute, which IMO went on for far longer than the public saw. And now he has had a confrontationakl meeting with his WB bosses in NZ, and who knows what artistic consessions they got from him? And he is in the exact postion he sought so stringly to avoid: rushing to meet frantic deadlines before a camera has rolled, making up for lost time, under pressure from the studio. struggling tio top himself, and cosncious of the fwct thq Del Toro is *still* mourned by many fans worldwide in this projecft--and the world;s media will betaqlking about TLB and remembering Del Toro also.


THe one aspect of Del Toro that I was eagerly looking forward to onscreen was that he was a man of "OLd WOrld" sensibilty. That is, he is an intellectual in the truw sense of the word--he , unlike many American and British contemporaries (or NZ for that matter) still viewes the world primarily through lirerature, through books--while Jackosn, Spileberg, Lucas, even Coppola and Scorcese and almost every other Hollywod director are products of the TV age: their main cinemastic insopirations are from the world of TV, movies, video. Thwy get the big second-hand. I could go off on tbis, It doesn;t make one better or worse..it;'s a different way of working, that's all.

There are other aspects f Del Toro I could go on about--and since Nob addressed PL I could reply to that, but I won't (yet). For me that's a whole nother topic. But there are those of us who felt that this franchise needed an Irvin Kershner, as Peter Jackson needed to re-discover himself. And he desperately needs that sense of fun and adventure back...and someine to tell him when to rein it in. Fran and Philippa couk do that...but they haven;t ben winning the battles lately, it seems..CGU or otherwise.


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jan 9 2011, 8:06pm


Views: 31738
It's in The Return of the King

'In the next day or two Frodo went through his papers and his writings with Sam, and he handed over his keys'.

('The Grey Havens')


(This post was edited by geordie on Jan 9 2011, 8:08pm)


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 8:50pm


Views: 33236
Sunflower, Thanks for that

I appreciate your point of view. I really don't want to start getting involved in calling people Naysayers and so on. Tolkien's works have sold hunderds of millions of copies, and yet I doubt any two fans would make exactly the same films. Ultimately, what we all see when we imagine Tolkiens worlds are different. Unless the professor himself was here to settle arguments about what is, and what is not the right thing to do, we'll never know the 'truth'.

I said earlier, that if I had my way, I'd squeeze every tiny piece of Tolkien in from all his works, but that's just my opinion. Copyright prevents that, and so does the movie making process. I'm still a fan of adding in as much of what we know was happening at the time of the Hobbit as possible, others will say that it should be strictly what Tolkien writes about in that one book. No problem, both viewpoints are born out of a love of the material, so it's all good.

Ultimately, my position comes from nearly 40 years of devouring new Tolkien material, and remaining hungry.

When I heard that LOTR was being made into a film, and Bakshi's cartoon came out, I was blown away. I loved it, and remember being so dissapointed when I found out the second half would not be made.

Compare that with what Peter Jackson did, and it's the difference in depth between The Hobbit and The Silmarillion. I'll always love PJ for that.

I'm still hungry. I still want more. And more.

I'm not sure how I feel about GDT. I trusted him, love his films and I'm sure the new films would have been great with him at the helm. I do firmly believe that the whole crew, not just PJ, will give their all in these new films. I'll love much of it, and wince at other biits, I'm sure, but they are just fans too, and that's their view. Mine might be different, but I don't make films!

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi

(This post was edited by Bran on Jan 9 2011, 8:53pm)


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 8:51pm


Views: 30630
Thanks

Ah, thanks for that Geordie. I thought I remembered it from somewhere. I forget the detail that is in LOTR sometimes, having read so many of the other worls.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 9 2011, 8:56pm


Views: 32048
That's the book.

I thought we were talking about the movie...


Quote
In the 'Tale of the Years' Sam is still living in Bag End. There's a passage which mentions him riding out from there to go to Gondor to see Aragorn. I also thought there was a passage somewhere which refers to Frodo giving Sam the keys to Bag End, although I cannot for the moment remember which text it is in. It may even be in a version in 'The History of Middle Earth'.


In the book, as geordie says, Frodo gives the keys of Bag End to Sam before they ride away to the Grey Havens.

Earlier, of course, the hobbits had returned from their adventure to find Bagshot Row destroyed and Bag End badly damaged and full of filth. Sam organises the rebuilding of Bagshot Row and then moves back there while overseeing the repairs to Bag End, while Frodo remains at the Cottons'. When Frodo finally moves back, after Sam has everything ready, he invites Sam to move in with him - at this point Frodo doesn't know that Sam has "spoken" to Rosie and is planning to get married. When he finds out, he invites them both to move in. And then, when he leaves, he gives the keys to Sam - and on the way to the Havens, once Sam understands what's happening, he makes it explicit: "...you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you."

But that's the book. In the film, there's no Scouring of the Shire - no desecration of Bag End, no heroics to shake the Shire hobbits out of their smug beliefs, no need to Sam to repair Bag End and replant the trees of the Shire. And, as far as I can see, no need to have Sam move into Bag End for us to understand that Frodo has left him "all that I had and might have had" - simple happiness like Sam's is the fundamental thing that Frodo had to give up to save the Shire, and it's what he explicity gifts to him at the Havens ("you have so much to enjoy, and to be, and to do..."). The house is just a symbol of that, in the book. And it's not a symbol that's used in the movie. In the movie, I'd say, it's seeing Sam stay in his own humble home, neither wanting nor expecting any other reward, that makes the final scene so moving. Or at least, it is for me...

Smile

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 9:02pm


Views: 29815
My apologies, FFH

I must have been being a bit thick.

Cool

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 9 2011, 9:10pm


Views: 29181
No argument about that.

In fact, if you read my post carefully, you'll see that I never mentioned "belief" at all. I only talked about "imagining". This is, after all, just a story. And stories can be retold many ways, and still be "true" in the ways that matter. I love Tolkien's version too. But I also like PJ's version, and in particular I love having another version of the story - looking at things from more than one perspective is very enriching, I find. But I find it much easier to appreciate the film if I try not to crowbar bits of the book into it, and simply let the film tell the story in its own way. That way, I don't need to decide which version to "believe", or even to choose between them at all - I get to have them both!

But certainly, if you do prefer to mix and match, I wouldn't presume to suggest you shouldn't. Every story speaks to everyone in its own way.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



duats
Grey Havens

Jan 9 2011, 9:12pm


Views: 39887
Just to clarify

"The naysayers will still be there opening day."

I'm sorry, but comments like this always annoy the cuss out of me.

I never said I'd be boycotting these films. I never said these movies would be horrible and an insult to Tolkien.

I expressed my personal disappointment in some of the choices being made with this project - Elijah Wood's inclusion being the most recent. I, like many others, have the right to disagree with the filmmakers from time to time. As much as I love the LoTR trilogy, there are plenty of changes, omissions, and additions that had me rolling my eyes and shaking my head. Loving the trilogy doesn't mean that I have to love every single aspect about them, nor does it mean that I am obligated, as a fan, to put my absolute trust in PJ from here on out.

I wanted the story told in the present tense. I wanted the story to be able to stand on its own. I wanted no more LoTR tie-ins than what was absolutely necessary. These are individual, personal wishes, mind you. But they explain why I am adamantly against the proposed inclusion of Elijah Wood.

To have story of The Hobbit read by Frodo during the LoTR timeline is absolutely unnecessary. It adds nothing to the story of The Hobbit. All it does is change The Hobbit into a LoTR flashback, and a LoTR prequel/sequel (depending on whether Frodo is reading Bilbo's book before or after the events of LoTR).

The Hobbit already contains enough tie-ins with LoTR as is. We have Bilbo Baggins, Gandalf the Grey, Elrond, Gollum, and the One Ring. We see Bilbo meeting Gollum and finding the One Ring - the event that sets up the very events of LoTR. Why do these films need more tie-ins to LoTR other than these characters and this crucial scene?

I am not a naysayer. I haven't condemned the films, and I haven't called PJ a hack. I am simply a fan of The Hobbit who is disappointed with some choices PJ and Co. have made (this includes GDT, who was involved in the script-writing process). I don't appreciate being accused of something I am not. I am no less of a fan for not keeping blind faith in every decision PJ makes.


(This post was edited by duats on Jan 9 2011, 9:15pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 9 2011, 9:14pm


Views: 33707
No need...

to apologise! I enjoyed having an excuse to revisit my favourite chapter of LotR!

Cool

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


Jan 9 2011, 9:19pm


Views: 34244
Why, thank you Sir Dennis

That's a great way of putting it - "it is important that the movies remain true to themselves". I guess that is how I feel. Although I also agree with you that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and their own way of seeing the story. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, and I'm glad you made that point yourself so clearly.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 9:28pm


Views: 35704
I wanted no more LoTR tie-ins than what was absolutely necessary.

The difficulty, duats, is when it comes down to defining 'absolutely necessary'. It's a subjective opinion - what some people here feel may be 'absolutely necessary' may not be what others feel. What the film makers see as 'absolutely necessary' may not seem so for the rest of us. I know, from watching the appendices, that some sequences they felt were 'absolutely necessary' for the movie version, I did not, and vice versa.

If I remade the flims and they grossed more than the original films, I guess I could say I was right and they were wrong. Until I do that, I can disagree, but have to accept they knew what they were talking about!

Smile

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


duats
Grey Havens

Jan 9 2011, 9:51pm


Views: 34473
Well

I think we can all agree that Bilbo stumbling into the cave, meeting Gollum, and finding/taking The One Ring is absolutely necessary.

I think we can all also agree that the inclusion of Gandalf the Grey is necessary.

Outside of that, I really don't know what other tie-ins to LoTR are necessary. You have two major characters from LoTR, and you have the single scene that brought about the events of LoTR. Plus, as mentioned in the past, we also have:

-Elrond
-The Shire and Bag-End
-Rivendell
-The Misty Mountains
-The Eagles
-Balin (mentioned by name in LoTR)

A brief cameo by Legolas, while unnecessary, can at least be argued to make sense - given that he is Thranduil's son and could very well have been present in Mirkwood when Bilbo and the Dwarves passed through. So while I'm not a particular fan of it (mostly because I dislike Bloom), it is relatively harmless (so long as it is a brief cameo and nothing more).

I've already expressed my concerns regarding the White Council/Dol Guldur scenes, so that doesn't need repeating.

I am genuinely curious. What else, in your opinion, is necessary to connect these films to LoTR? I'm not arguing what you said about this matter being subjective. I just honest-to-God can't think of anything else that PJ could think was absolutely crucial - to the point that it HAS to happen.

P.S., your adaptation making more or less money wouldn't make you right or wrong. As that is also a matter of subjectivity Wink.


(This post was edited by duats on Jan 9 2011, 9:55pm)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jan 9 2011, 9:54pm


Views: 32345
I agree with basically everything you said

but a lot of people seem to forget that PJ was very busy (or supposed to be) at the time the Hobbit was finally starting. He was still working on the Lovely Bones, and he had other projects that he was committed to at the time:

-District 9
-the Tintin movies
-the Dam Busters
-Halo
-a potential video game

Those projects are either done now or never happened, so it's easier for us to say now "well why didn't he just want to do the Hobbit in the first place?" But I'm not saying these projects were the only reason he didn't choose to direct from the beginning.

I don't think it was even really an option for him at the time. What was it? Three or four years ago? A lot has changed since then, and am I the only one that remembers him saying something "now I kind of regret not being the one directing it"? I think he said something like that in the last year or so as the script writing process was underway. He was obviously getting sucked into Middle-earth again, and I think he wanted to stay longer. Not that he regretted GDT being involved.

I wish I could find where/when he said that.


(This post was edited by Mooseboy018 on Jan 9 2011, 9:57pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 9:55pm


Views: 33091
Making Bilbo's journey more powerful than it is in the book.

Just what do you think is weak about Bilbo's journey as it was written?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

Photobucket


Bran
Lorien

Jan 9 2011, 10:17pm


Views: 41649
OK, I'm repeating myself, too.....

Firstly, the point about the films gross value was meant to explain how you measure their success. If the films attract a lot of paying customers, they have been successful in the eyes of the filmmakers. Now yes, technically, they could be very poorly attended, lose money and still be loved by a few Tolkien fans and the critics and you COULD call that successful but.....anyway, I digress.

As for essential, as I said earlier, I see Balin's story as essential. If it's not covered, you end up with a major character who seemingly lives happily ever after at the end of the Hobbit, turning up dead somewhere else in FOTR.

For me, the White Council stuff is essential. Gandalf disppears in the Hobbit, meets up with Elrond, Galadriel, Saruman and so on, and launches an attack on Sauron. Not told in the Hobbit, and not seen in LOTR, so needs to be told.

I'd go further. I'd want an explanation of why the Dwarves turn up at Bag End in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't think we are going to be allowed to see that part of the story.

Legolas, for me, is far from essential. He MIGHT have been present when Bilbo's party passed, Tolkien doesn't say either way. Aragorn (as Estel) MIGHT have been at Rivendell when they passed, as might Arwen, but these facts tell us nothing. No story, no exposition, nothing. To me, they are unnecessary. Story pertaining to how and why the quest for Erebor came about, Sauron's story/White Council, Balin, even how Frodo came to be with Bilbo, are important, and fill in lots of detail.

To me, essential, but as I say, it's subjective, and that's just one fan's opinion.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 10:26pm


Views: 34187
Thanks geordie

You saved me from quoting the whole chapter.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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duats
Grey Havens

Jan 9 2011, 10:30pm


Views: 32170
Here's another question

Frodo will be reading "There and Back Again," so we are seeing the events of The Hobbit as written by Bilbo.

So given this format, how are they going to make the White Council and Dol Guldur scenes work, given that Bilbo wasn't present for those events? How would he have them recorded? How would he know what all was said? Or how they drove the Necromancer from the tower. I doubt Gandalf would have told him every single detail regarding the Council and their seige on Dol Guldur. To my knowledge, all Gandalf told Bilbo of the whole affair was that he went away to deal with the Necromancer - without getting into too many specific details. I'll have to double check.

If the events of The Hobbit were being told in real-time, and not strictly through Bilbo's eyes, this wouldn't be an issue.


(This post was edited by duats on Jan 9 2011, 10:35pm)


duats
Grey Havens

Jan 9 2011, 10:41pm


Views: 30600
Regarding Balin

All we need is one line from Balin detailing his plans to return to Moria.

As for the White Council/ Dol Guldur scenes, considering these events were not addressed at all in the LoTR trilogy, I don't think they are altogether necessary.

Gandalf going in and out of the narrative not only keeps emphasis on Bilbo and the Dwarves, but it adds tension to the story (the Company is without their powerful guide). His comings and goings can be chalked up to the fact that he is a wizard, and has other dealings around Middle-earth. I think not knowing where he is adds mystery to the character, and thus makes him more compelling and wizardy.

Just my opinion, of course. I love Balin, and making mention of Moria would certainly be welcomed. But we don't need to actually see him journey there after-the-fact.


(This post was edited by duats on Jan 9 2011, 10:43pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 10:45pm


Views: 32638
Just Say Nay!

It is really interesting how these events turn and how people, blinded by their desires, feel free to cast those who do not agree with them into categories of convenience. I willfully say nay to many things he see expounded on these pages. I also say yes upon occasion.
Now when is it that the thirty seven fully armed Mumakils show up at The Battle of the Fife Armies? Is that before of after Smaug is resurrected and the Balrog from Moria comes out to join the battle?

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 9 2011, 10:54pm


Views: 31228
It appears that the only non-essential things that might be included in these two films

are the events that actually take place within the book.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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geordie
Tol Eressea

Jan 9 2011, 11:11pm


Views: 35571
My pleasure -

- and, the same goes for bran, too. Hope you don't mind my replying to both of you good gents at once.

Smile


geordie
Tol Eressea

Jan 9 2011, 11:14pm


Views: 31489
'Just say Nay'

Oh, I shall - just as often as I feel there's a need.

Wink


Bran
Lorien

Jan 10 2011, 12:10am


Views: 30258
I don't know how those things work

Duats, but, it seems, given teh castings, that we will find out.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bran
Lorien

Jan 10 2011, 12:12am


Views: 32030
Whilst I don't think it is necessary

to have half an hour backstory on Balin, I don't think a sentence will do either. I expect to see maybe a couple of minutes dealing with it, no more, really.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Bran
Lorien

Jan 10 2011, 12:13am


Views: 29618
As I said earlier Kangi

It's subjective. What you feel is essential and what I see as essential are two viewpoints. Two fans with different opinions. Both are valid.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


shadowdog
Rohan

Jan 10 2011, 1:56am


Views: 32651
Speculation is not fact

We don't know that Frodo will narrate The Hobbit. That is speculation. We have no idea what role, or how big a role, Frodo will have in The Hobbit. I prefer to wait for the actual film to see what it will contain.


Pete
Bree


Jan 10 2011, 5:35am


Views: 31008
As long as the opening is set during "The Hobbit" timeline

I'd be more inclinded to go with LOTR-era cameos if they didn't open the film. Opening on Bag End with Old Bilbo reading the story of Frodo would be nice (we saw as much in the FOTR EE) but I think the opening should be "Hobbit"-centric.



Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 10 2011, 3:49pm


Views: 46524
Who said Bilbo's journey was weak?

Just because something can be improved in some way does not mean that it was originally poor. I believe that viewing the story of Bilbo through the lens of Frodo's nostalgia could be a powerful augmentation to the story, but that doesn't mean that I think there was something wrong with the way the story was presented in the book itself. Both angles are good... but one, I think, has the potential to be better if done right.

Remember what Frodo said to Bilbo in Rivendell?

Quote
I miss the Shire. I spent all my childhood pretending I was off somewhere else... off with you on one of your adventures! My own adventure turned out to be quite different... I’m not like you, Bilbo.

This is exactly the nostalgic, regretful, moving feel I'm talking about. It's the story of The Hobbit, viewed through the eyes of Frodo. I'm sure we'll see this aspect of both Bilbo's story and Frodo's character explored much more deeply in the bookend scenes... and I'm really starting to think it was a good idea to add them.


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 10 2011, 3:51pm


Views: 30292
I raised the same question earlier

I wondered if perhaps Gandalf would interrupt Frodo's reading of the Red Book to tell his own side of the story, or if the filmmakers would just plough straight into the White Council scenes and hope that nobody remembers there was no way Bilbo would have those things recorded in his memoirs.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Jan 10 2011, 4:02pm


Views: 31123
Improvement is a very relative term

The Hobbit has been around 70+ years. It seem to me that it really does not need to be improved.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
New Zealand is Middle-earth & today life is good.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.

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dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 10 2011, 4:16pm


Views: 28386
I suppose the question is........

...... if Frodo is to be our doorway into the story of Bilbo's adventure, how far do the filmmakers want us to go on being aware of his presence as the story unfolds? If they do then perhaps there will be little chunks of narration, or Gandalf breaking in to describe the Dol Guldur story...

I can't imagine that making for a very satisfactory film. Maybe I'm wrong and they've seen possibilities I'm missing, but it seems to me that if they follow that route there's too much risk of ending up with a neither-one-thing-nor-the-other presentation in which we as audience can't get really involved in Bilbo's story because we keep being taken out of it. Too much will be told and not shown.

I prefer the idea of a pre-'The Shadow of the Past' Frodo leading us in and then stepping back to let 'The Hobbit' take over completely, perhaps returning at the end of film one, beginning of film two, or not returning at all until the very end. that way 'The Hobbit' is as independent as it can be while still being drawn into the overall film adaptation.

But of course I might change my mind completely when I see how they've done it!


Junesong
Rivendell


Jan 10 2011, 4:40pm


Views: 32028
Maybe nobody knows

watching the EE behind the scenes you really get a glimpse into Jackson's film making style and he does quite a bit of story work in post production. From what I saw on the documentaries the Rings scripts were evolving all the time during shooting and even with lots of pre-planning the stories really came together in the editing bay.

That being said all we know for sure is who is in the movie - a press release says Elijah Wood is back - TORN says it has something to do with the Red Book.

Everything else is just our imaginations trying to force square pegs into triangular holes. We don't know how big the role is, or how the Red Book is involved.

I'm trying to expand my mind beyond just the story being read from that book and when I do that I can see many cool ways of incorporating Frodo in at the beginning or ending of The Hobbit in a way that augments the viewing of the trilogy.

But I'll be really surprised if they overlap timelines - I think it more likely to keep the whole time line of The Hobbit movies as lead up to the trilogy.

From what I remember about the movies there is no reason we can't assume that the whole "There and Back Again" story was already completely written in the Red Book by the time Fellowship starts. Bilbo continues to write in the book, of course, throughout the movie but only "Concerning Hobbits" and other things that would have been written after Bilbo wrote down his other adventures.

As to how it will eventually be done, it's possible that even Peter Jackson won't really know until he's sitting in the editing room with the footage in front of him.

"Tim... Canterbury... Canterbury Tales... Chaucer... Shakespeare."


Bound
Rohan


Jan 10 2011, 4:46pm


Views: 26776
Agreed...

Who knows if the frodo material will even make it into the final film. As you say so much is done in the editing room.

Perhpas the decide after the shoot the material that it doesnt work and the movies become a straight forward telling of the hobbit... we just don't know enough about the script and even if we did - Anything can change from now until the first screening of the movie !

the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed


Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 10 2011, 4:56pm


Views: 44442
Do you really think so?

It has existed for seventy years, therefore no attempts to improve the story should be made? I don't think any work of fiction deserves that sort of untouchable, unquestionable status. Of course it doesn't 'need to be improved' – it is already very good – but thoughtful enhancements certainly have the potential to be beneficial to the story.


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Jan 10 2011, 5:04pm


Views: 47152
Strangely absent here: "A squeee heard round the world." /

 


Bran
Lorien

Jan 10 2011, 5:05pm


Views: 27389
But we know

that JRRT made several attempts to 'improve' the tale, to add to it and make it fit better with his full vision. We know he altered Riddles in the Dark, we know he fleshed out the Necromancer backstory and Radagast in LOTR, we know the detail of where the map and key came from and why the Dwarves turned up at Bag End in the first place from UT. We know Gollum's full story from LOTR. Tolkien 'improved' the tale many times and in many ways.

What JRRT did in 'fleshing out' the tale of TH in this way all improved it, for me.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 10 2011, 6:11pm


Views: 28203
I think it's safe to assume Bilbo knew about Dol Guldur, etc.


Quote
I wondered if perhaps Gandalf would interrupt Frodo's reading of the Red Book to tell his own side of the story, or if the filmmakers would just plough straight into the White Council scenes and hope that nobody remembers there was no way Bilbo would have those things recorded in his memoirs.


Bilbo spent what must have been months traveling back from Dale with Gandalf and Beorn, and stayed with Elrond in Rivendell on they way home too. As inquisitive as Hobbits are, I can't imagine he didn't hear many of the details of Gandalf's adventures and maybe even more details from Elrond.

True, Bilbo didn't include those things as part of his There and Back Again tale, but the Red Book is much more than just the story contained between the book-covers of The Hobbit; it ends up containing the entire tale from the Unexpected Party to long after Frodo, and even Sam, sail to the West. From the forward and appendices to LOTR, we already know that not all of the story was published in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings proper. So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that bits of the story were added after Bilbo finished There and Back Again and, that in the years between when Bilbo adopted Frodo and the Long Expected Party, Frodo would have had many opportunities to both read The Red Book and pick Bilbo's brain about the adventures.

An additional angle might be that Gandalf visited Bilbo many times in The Shire, and Frodo might have sat by the fire listening to them talk about their old adventures.

Anyway, my point (and I do have one Laugh), is that there are plenty of ways both Bilbo and Frodo would have known some (if not many) of the details of Dol Guldur & the White Council before Frodo picks the book up to read it in the movie.






Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



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Bran
Lorien

Jan 10 2011, 6:39pm


Views: 25209
I very much agree with that altaira

I'm fairly certain Gandalf would have used any excuse to smoke some pipeweed and eat some seed cake at Bag End, and the two hobbits would, I'm sure, have quizzed him endlessly on wher he'd been, and what he'd been up to, as well as asking for news of people they knew, or had heard of.

Mawr yw ein braint i berthyn i'r gwm Llynfi


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 10 2011, 10:14pm


Views: 26619
Posted by Jettorex: CNN.com quoting EW on Elijah Wood appearing in The Hobbit...

....says he will be seen narrating Bilbo's story at the beginning of both part 1 and 2. Interesting.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



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(This post was edited by Altaira on Jan 10 2011, 10:15pm)


duats
Grey Havens

Jan 10 2011, 11:10pm


Views: 26048
He did, to an extent

From the last chapter of The Hobbit:


Quote
It was in this way he learned where Gandalf had been too; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.


It looks like I may have been mistaken. He did know of the Council and the expulsion of the Necromancer from Mirkwood. So I guess the question is: would Gandalf really have given him the specifics?


(This post was edited by duats on Jan 10 2011, 11:11pm)


dormouse
Half-elven

Jan 10 2011, 11:12pm


Views: 25174
And add to that....

... the little snippet in the Deadline article about Andy Serkis linked on the main page, which says sources tell them Ian Holm is in talks to make a return appearance as Bilbo... Surely that has to be at the beginning or end of the films as well, or as a voice-over, if it's true.


Ardamírë
Valinor

Jan 10 2011, 11:20pm


Views: 26106
right on

I absolutely agree with everything you said. I assumed that the movie would be told in present, and I'm holding out hope that it will be in the finished film. Shoving The Hobbit into a superfluous faming device does nothing to help the story. All it does it add extra time to the movie that could be used for other purposes, or cut for pacing reasons. I'm really hoping that by the time they come to editing that this ends up on the cutting room floor.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Jan 11 2011, 9:53am


Views: 26359
WAHOOOO!!!!! :D

OMG!!!

\THIOS IS AWESOMEQ@!!!!!!!! Maybe both!? But to have Elijah as Frodo again.... having Frodo with maybe Bilbo!? OMG!!!!!! I Can't BREAHTE!!!!!!! *runs for meds*

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I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.



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Tim
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2011, 2:12pm


Views: 25519
After a little thought, in the "it's good" camp

The more the two stories are interconnected on film the better as far as I'm concerned. It is after all, one big story. Since time travel machines are not available in Middle Earth, Frodo will be involved either in some narration or some kind of flashback - don't have a problem with that and I like to see some of the actors returning. It's all good.

King Arthur: Who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder?
Tim: There are some who call me... Tim?


Jettorex
Lorien


Jan 11 2011, 3:18pm


Views: 26251
Questions. Questions???

.....Since Frodo will be seen in the beginning of each movie reading from Bilbo's book (EW.Com),presumably narrating/introducing the events of The Hobbit, when in the context of Middle Earth time/place will he be in when he is doing this? In between events of TH and LOTR? After the events of LOTR? Where will he be? The Shire, Rivendell...Valinor???

I'd really like to see peoples thoughts on this!


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."





Flagg
Tol Eressea


Jan 11 2011, 10:27pm


Views: 25708
Artistic licence

I don't think it matters that Bilbo may not have known the specifics of the White Council's adventures. The flashback won't need to follow Bilbo's writings word-for-word – once we get the idea that Bilbo is vaguely aware of the Dol Guldur episode, the flashback can naturally expand itself beyond the scope of his narration and into the Necromancer storyline. At least I think that might work...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal

Jan 12 2011, 11:13pm


Views: 24852
Gandalf's report


In Reply To
From the last chapter of The Hobbit:


Quote
It was in this way he learned where Gandalf had been too; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.


It looks like I may have been mistaken. He did know of the Council and the expulsion of the Necromancer from Mirkwood. So I guess the question is: would Gandalf really have given him the specifics?


I'm guessing, not at that time. Gandalf probably wrote up a fuller account years later to be included as part of Bilbo's Red Book.


Bregolas
The Shire


Jan 13 2011, 10:54pm


Views: 26438
This could work really well.

I am reading Unfinished Tales right now and The Quest of Erebor actually illustrates perfectly how Frodo might fit into The Hobbit movie. In Quest of Erebor, Gandalf and Frodo are in Minas Tirith some time after Aragorn's coronation and Gandalf is telling Frodo about how he bumped into Thorin in Bree and how that "chance" meeting started the chain of events that led to Bilbo going with the dwarves on their journey. If Frodo is going to be in the movie, it seems to me that he will actually just be listening to Gandalf tell the story. It's not my ideal beginning for the movie, but I think it could work really well. I haven't read all 377 of these posts, so forgive me if I'm repeating something that has been said already.

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-Thorin Oakenshield


meltsar
The Shire

Jan 14 2011, 1:06am


Views: 40258
Skeptical...

I'm skeptical of Frodo being in this film. I'm getting flashbacks of the Rankin Bass 'Return of the King' wrap-around, and I certainly hope that's not what they're up to here. 'The Hobbit' needs to be told as a legitimate chapter in the Lord of the Rings story, not as a weird flashback from the imagination of Frodo. It doesn't make any sense to me that 'The Hobbit' film would have such a decidedly un-epic introduction as Frodo reading the book ~ followed up by the completely-epic intro to the Rings trilogy as narrated by Galadriel. If narration is needed, let it be Galadriel, for continuity's sake. Let the introduction be about Gandalf, Thrain and the Necromancer. Hopefully, the insertion of Frodo will be a pleasant surprise and not what I fear it will be.