The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Tolkien at UVM



Istar Indigo
Bree

Jun 1 2009, 12:36am


Views: 1264
Tolkien at UVM

Greetings all!

My UVM students have been encouraged to register and place their questions on this site. I have reminded them of the etiquette of this discussion board and all boards. I hope to have a few students take advantage (for extra credit) of the depth of knowledge and seriousness of enquiry found at this site. Students will hopefully place "at UVM" in their usernames and use this space to direct their questions.

This is the beginning of Week 3 of our four week summer course. Please attach new questions to this thread.

yours,
Chris Vaccaro
[Istar Indigo]


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 1 2009, 1:35am


Views: 1001
Thanks much for keeping this up-to-date.

I'm sorry I haven't had time to respond to your students' inquiries myself, but I have been reading what I can. I do appreciate your conscientousness in posting one new thread each week so that they have a place to respond on the first page.

A minor off-topic note: you might wish to read David Bratman's brief thoughts on the merits of Daniel Timmons' "Hobbit Sex and Sexuality in The Lord of the Rings", which you mentioned in your conference paper in April. Bratman was responding to my report on the conference posted here.

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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!

Join us May 18-24 for "Barrels out of Bond".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.


weaver
Half-elven

Jun 1 2009, 2:08am


Views: 967
I have an important reason to hijack this thread....

Happy Half-Elvenness, NEB! If there was a party when you hit 5,000 posts, I missed it...and if there wasn't I'll start it.

Congratulations and well earned!

Weaver





dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 1 2009, 2:26am


Views: 949
*snickers* He did try to sneak it by us...

...but gramma and I caught him soon after the fateful post was made, and sador has joined in since with this gem:

"Our N. E. Brigand is a pleasnt fellow,
spot-on his questions are, and his tone is mellow.
None has ever caught him yet, for neb, he is the master:
His book-lore incredible, and he finds links faster."

So, yes, hijack away, let's celebrate! Cool


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"

"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915



weaver
Half-elven

Jun 1 2009, 3:06am


Views: 932
Glad you were on the look out for him...

You Half-Elven folk are all seeing, I see!

And sador's poem was perfect -- thanks for the link. And since that was a page 3 party, I think it's okay to do a reprisal here...

I can't rival sador, but since NEB is a Clevelander, here is a "slighty revised" jingle from that part of the world, in his honor...

"Mr. NEB
How he saves all things
Keeper of the the keys...

In his vault of posts
He deserves a toast
On the Reading Room floor..."


Weaver





Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 1 2009, 7:32am


Views: 956
Huh?

I know we've been down this path before about Unsubstantiated Theories' (sorry I forget the appreoved initials), but just where in the text of The Lord of the Rings is the anything whatsover even alluding to Hobbit sex or sexuality?


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 1 2009, 2:00pm


Views: 930
I'm crashing the RR just to join in these congrats

I was going to try to watch for the happy event and then realized it had come without my knowing when.

huzzah, NE.

:-)


2009 Tolkien Computer Monitor Calendars
LOTR soundtrack website : CD Editions & Similarities Updates March 08
magpie avatar gallery ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 1 2009, 4:23pm


Views: 954
Well, they do have children.

Most of them. Frodo doesn't, though. And Sam is "torn in two" between his love for Frodo and Rosie. That sets lots of readers wondering: ideas like "Brokeback Mount Doom" come from somewhere, even if they rely on a reading of the text that Tolkien himself never imagined.

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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!

Join us May 25-31 for "A Warm Welcome".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Istar Indigo
Bree

Jun 1 2009, 4:44pm


Views: 918
Thanks and Congrats!

I'll check out the discussion on sex in LotR. Hopefully, my students are thinking of some great questions to ask this week.
II


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 1 2009, 6:52pm


Views: 937
OF Course

I know the Hobbits have children & that means they have sex, no big deal. It's just not in the texts & is therefore total speculation as to anything that they might do..

As for Frodo & Sam, it's total revisionist history to imply Tolkien inferred any type of relationship besides a servant serving his master with his whole heart.......

But, UUT's (I rememberd!) will run wild & there's no stopping them I guess.

Rant over. Mad


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 1 2009, 8:03pm


Views: 925
Pedantic grammar point.


Quote
As for Frodo & Sam, it's total revisionist history to imply Tolkien inferred any type of relationship besides a servant serving his master with his whole heart.......


I think you mean "to infer Tolkien implied." Smile

Substantively, I agree that the text does not support a physical sexual relationship between Frodo and Sam.

Indeed, I have argued that the text does not support any physical sexual relationship other than marital heterosexual relationships for the purpose of making babies -- in other words, it is a Roman Catholic fantasy. Now, it may be that Tolkien was just unusually delicate about discussing sex, but by avoiding even the implication of extramarital sex, even in extensive genealogies and histories, even to the extent of creating shot-gun weddings in lieu of rape, in a fantasy world where Tolkien is our only source of information, he effectively created a fantasy world in which extramarital sex does not exist, whether or not that was his intention. Of course, we can argue that Tolkien's history of Middle-earth has been sanitized by fictional historians, but then we are reduced to speculative UUTs and fan fiction about what really happened.

At any rate, in a fantasy world where even extramarital heterosexual sex is doubtful, I don't see any evidence of homosexual sex.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 1 2009, 9:24pm


Views: 922
I Wish

I knew what 'pedantic' meant.... Wink

But I get the point.

I think where the problem comes in is when 'we' (society as a whole) try to take the changing moral conditions and super-impose them back onto another time period where they just don't fit (take the movie 'Titanic' for example).

Tolkien lived in a time before the 'sexual revolution' of the Sixties, or at least wrote TLOR long before that, aside from the fact of his staunch religious beliefs.
Yes, I realize some other authors at the time wrote about Homosexuality & 'permiscuous sex' if you will, but to think or imply Tolkien did when you know anything about his life is truely bringing your own agenda to the table since the is not one iota of evidence within the text to back you up.


sador
Half-elven

Jun 2 2009, 5:05am


Views: 928
Have you read N.E.B.'s report?

According to his report, Timmons (whose essay, btw, is called in that report "Hobbit sex and sensuality...") actually refered to Frodo's not getting married; in fact, if you see Bilbo and Frodo as exemplars of abstinence without the advantages of a cloistered life, this might be seen as a comment by Tolkien's on the pure life of Roman clergy.

I agree that the gender-studies advocates today sometimes try too hard to find things which really aren't there, but I must point out that most of the studies labelled 'sex' are not at all ex-rated, but rather discussing the respective roles (and rules) of males and females in different societies. Seen as such, the hobbit-women we see in Tolkien are intriguing: the famous Belladonna Took, Lobelia, Mrs. Maggott, Mrs. Cotton, Rosie - as well as the Bilbo and Frodo remaining bachelors (and being considered strange for this reason, even though hobbits seem not to know about homosexuality).

Perhaps the most interesting thing for me in that realm is Sam's not mentioning Rosie at all - not even when looking in the mirror of Galadriel, and wanting to leave the Quest and save his Gaffer! - untill he finally escapes the orcs and turns towards Mount Doom. Perhaps Modtheow could enlighten me on that subject?

Once again, it does irritate me that every conference reported here, seems to have gender-related topics as a major focus - because this really seems blown out of proportion; and I also agree that a lot of those engaged in gender studies have a certain agenda, which Tolkien himself would probably disapprove of; but that does not mean that an essay on "Hobbit Sex and Sensuality" is only projecting the author's dirty mind on your favourite writer.

"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 2 2009, 6:16am


Views: 904
Again....

I think that the mere fact that Frodo and Sam happened to not be married is a very far leap for somebody to superimpose the Roman Catholic clegy's marital prohibition's onto. But, there we go again with the UUT's...

And I'm not so sure that having essays or speeches at conferences based on 'Hobbits sexual practices & Hobbit Homosexuality' 'is the product of a dirty mind as you put it' or moreso the fabric of certain more 'liberal' minded folks who just think a certain way in this century and are rewriting 'history' the way they think it must have been, despite the lack of any evidence


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 2 2009, 9:45am


Views: 931
I'd go further than that.


In Reply To
Indeed, I have argued that the text does not support any physical sexual relationship other than marital heterosexual relationships for the purpose of making babies



I would argue that the text doesn't even mention sex for the purpose of making babies. The only evidence we have that such sex took place is the babies themselves! Heck, we saw this week that neither Beorn or Thranduil even has a known sexual partner, despite each having a son.

So I'd say that sex is simply not an issue in LotR, in any context. I would suggest this may be simply because sex is mundane, an earthly delight that simply isn't what Faerie is all about. Faerie is about the emotions - the love, the transcendence, the sense of timelessness - that may be associated with sex, but are not necessarily limited to the physical mechanics of sex itself. In fact, if anything, it's about reaching those levels of transcendence without sex - and indeed, the real "Catholic fantasy" isn't about married love, but about the pure and intense love of God and man that celibate saints can achieve. I tend to think that that's mostly about sublimation, but it's a very powerful force nevertheless.

Personally, I find the idea of Frodo and Sam's deep love much more moving without imagining that it has a basis in physical gratification. But to each his own, I guess - since sex isn't specifically mentioned in any context at all in LotR, yet "must" take place at least in the creation of babies, then you fill in the blanks in whatever way works for you....


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 10:42am


Views: 915
That's going too far, I judge.

Babies imply a sex life, and there is no counterevidence to that implication. But there are no illegitimate babies, or other implication of extramarital sex.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 2 2009, 11:38am


Views: 894
How do you know?


In Reply To
But there are no illegitimate babies, or other implication of extramarital sex.



What do we know about Beorn's son, for example? And it appears that there's no "illegitimacy" among the Elves simply because they don't have a concept of legitimacy/illegitimacy at all - they just fall in love, and are faithful for life (naturally, because they represent the ideal condition of humanity).

You've also quoted descriptions of orc reproduction in the past that are at the very least amibiguous about exactly how the offspring are produced.

In a heroic romance such as this, sordid details about illegitimacy are unlikely to make it into the story, but I don't think we have to assume from that (if we want to try to impose a modern scientific or psychological view onto Middle-earth) that no such sex ever happened at all.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 12:59pm


Views: 915
I know there is no mention of

illegitimate babies. If you disagree, please give me your cites. Yes, we can speculate, but it's just speculation.

I think you are referring to the passage in Morgoth's Ring discussing how men interbred with orcs, and I think that supports my point. It would be easy to assume that the orcs raped the human women, and I think many readers do make that assumption, but Tolkien went out of his way to say that humans were reduced to the level of orcs so that they would willingly interbreed.

It's true that we don't see church weddings in Middle-earth, and if that is your definition of legitimacy, then perhaps everyone is illegitimate. But even the most vile characters are said to marry and maintain monogamous relationships. There's a grand total of one mention of attempted rape, and that was not a successful attempt.


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 1:17pm


Views: 887
I see Bilbo and Frodo's bachelorhood as a price they pay

for being so different from the other hobbits. Not only do they not marry, they also have few friends, and of course Frodo cannot even live out his life in the Shire. I think Tolkien intended their isolation to be sort of sad, although they have considerable compensations -- Bilbo manages to live a happy life despite the fact that nearly all the hobbits think he is insane, and Frodo gets to go to the Undying Lands, which should be no small treat. But I think that their bachelorhood is a note of melancholy, not quasi-priesthood.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 2 2009, 3:15pm


Views: 882
I'm sure you're right.


In Reply To
I know there is no mention of illegitimate babies.



There surely aren't any illegitimate children in the story, but it doesn't necessarily follow that there are no illegitimate children in Middle-earth. Because these are two different things, I believe.

The story itself is an epic, or heroic romance, or a fairy story, or whatever you choose to call it. It tells a tale according to ancient conventions in which there may be widows' sons, orphans and perhaps even wicked stepmothers, but "extramarital sex" is simply not part of the package.

Middle-earth, however, as Tolkien once said, represents this world we live in, but "at a different stage of imagination".

That is, the story tells us how Middle-earth seems to the people who live in it, at their own "stage of imagination". The story is an attempt to let us see the world - our world, in some imagined past - through other eyes, with other conventions than the ones commonly used today.

So to say there is no extramarital sex in the story is one thing, but to want to extrapolate this and say (for example) that extramarital sex is "impossible" in Middle-earth is confusing two different things. The story has its own conventions, and those do not include making scientific, cultural or psychological assumptions based on our modern way of thinking.

But the story also evokes a world that draws us in so compellingly that we may want to look behind the story and apply our modern assumptions to it - to imagine what Elvish reproduction might be like, for example (as Beren IV likes to do) or how well the castles and fortresses would really work (as squire sometimes does). That can be an interesting exercise, but I think you always have to bear in mind that there may be more things in Middle-earth than the story tells of. And those may (surely must) include sexual behaviour that simply doesn't fit the conventions of the story itself.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings


(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 2 2009, 3:16pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 3:42pm


Views: 961
LotR is a feigned history,

and so is The Silmarillion, and so is most of HoME and Unfinished Tales. The Hobbit is different, and originally stood alone, but since Tolkien incorporates it into the same legendarium in LotR, it becomes part of the feigned history. A feigned history that covers so much ground, including long genealogies and the most intimate details of human and elvish relationships over thousands of years, yet says nothing about babies born out of wedlock, is very different from a short story that doesn't happen to mention extramarital sex. The absence becomes quite noticeable after a while, and whether you attribute it to Tolkien's delicacy or the delicacy of fictional historians, it presents quite a contrast with real histories, which are full of extramarital sex and all the consequences thereof, particularly in ruling families.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 2 2009, 5:05pm


Views: 871
Good point.

The genealogies are certainly hard to explain away as just part of the "fairytale convention", I have to admit. Maybe you're right, and Tolkien did want us to believe that there's no sex except married sex in Middle-earth. I don't like the idea that Tolkien may have subscribed to the "Catholic fantasy" that was actually founded on abominations such as the Magdelene Laundries or the child abuse detailed in Ireland's recent Ryan Report. But perhaps he did.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 5:36pm


Views: 894
Tolkien seems to have had a firm grasp

of the distinction between fantasy and reality, and the role of fantasy in everyday life. It's the people who reject the role of a healthy fantasy life who seem likely to unconsciously perpetrate their fantasies upon the world, treating people as monsters, while all the while imagining themselves as heroes. Don't forget that Tolkien and his wife were both orphans, and that Edith was the daughter of an unmarried mother.


Modtheow
Lorien


Jun 2 2009, 6:42pm


Views: 953
Fanfic, gender studies, and Timmons on hobbit sensuality

I’m not quite sure where to stick this post, so I’ll put it here, since sador has raised some interesting points about current gender studies and I’d like to add my own thoughts on that subject (though I don’t claim to be a spokesperson for any group). Sometimes I wonder whether ideas about literary critics who study gender and sexuality aren’t getting mixed up with ideas about fanfic writers (though not in sador’s post), and I’d like to try to disentangle these threads if possible, if only to clear my own head.

Fanfic
I think it’s fair to say that fanfic writers do “impose” their ideas about sexuality on Tolkien’s text, if by “imposing” we mean that they acknowledge that they are adding to the story an explicit sexual dimension -- often a homosexual dimension -- that Tolkien was not interested in writing about. However, many fanfic writers do believe that the sexual dimension of the relationships they write about is implied in Tolkien’s text; there is something there that could turn into an explicit sexual relationship. As N.E.B. reports in one of his posts, the point has been made that the idea of a “Brokeback Mount Doom” video doesn’t come out of nowhere. (Of course, we should also remember that not all fanfic is about sex.) As for “permiscuity” -- there is something about that spelling that just seems right, isn’t there? -- some fanfic writers do play with creating promiscuous relationships, although many stories also specialize in monogamous, romantic relationships (OTP: One true pairing) in which two characters are exclusively bonded through love, which is expressed sexually. In any case, I do think that fanfic writers who write about sexual relationships are playing with and exploring ideas that are currently acceptable in our culture (well, maybe western liberal culture), but such ideas were not explicitly discussed by most people in some other times in history (like the mid-20th century), or they weren’t discussed using the same terminology that we use today (like “homosexual”) and so were seen slightly differently.

Literary criticism
Professional critics who study gender overlap to some extent with fanfic writers in that both groups are scrutinizing what is and what is not in Tolkien’s text, what is implied, what is explicit, and what all of that means in terms of Tolkien’s representation of gender, sex, sexuality. I suppose you could see the critical examination of sexuality as an “imposition” of contemporary concerns on older material, but in my opinion it’s more accurate to think of it as a way of looking at older material. In good gender criticism, the critic isn’t trying to impose any ideas on the text and is certainly not trying to rewrite history; the critic is trying to understand the text and its historical context more clearly by pursuing questions such as how did people think about sex at that time? What were the important questions to them compared to us today? How did they conduct their relationships then compared to us today? What does the difference, if there is one, tell us about our lives and our world today and in the past? Good criticism that uses sex and gender as a way of looking at older material doesn’t impose contemporary ideas about sexuality on the text; instead, it should aim to clarify what is in the text, implicitly or explicitly; to say what isn’t there; and to articulate what is different about the text compared to our present-day assumptions. Of course, I said “good criticism” – bad criticism, to my mind, is something like Catharine Stimpson’s famous article, which wants to find a certain version of women depicted in Tolkien’s work and when she doesn’t find what she is looking for, she criticizes the text for not being her idea of a good story that contains her desired heroines, without looking closely at what is actually there. That kind of criticism, I would say, is an imposition of contemporary expectations on the story.

While I find the question of sex/gender/sexuality an interesting way of looking at the text, it is true that we have come through a period in literary criticism that persistently asks the same questions: about sex and gender, about class, and about race. But then again, every period in literary criticism has its dominant questions – in the 1950s, we’d be preoccupied with unity, structure, and irony; or in the 1890s, we’d be persistently examining texts for signs of Saxon racial qualities as expressed in our myths. Recent critical questions about sex, class, and race were born out of the civil rights and feminist movements of the 20th century, a political foundation that is not to everyone’s liking, and early versions of such criticism especially were prone to identifying negative stereotypes that led to condemnations of their writers, but I think that examples of the best of these critical explorations go beyond that somewhat superficial level to try to understand the writer in his/her historical moment – the exact opposite, in other words, of trying to rewrite history according to modern views.

Questions about sex aren’t the only way that literary critics approach texts these days – thank goodness for some variety! – and just as in the Reading Room so too in professional criticism: certain questions interest some people more than others. But basically the whole critical enterprise – whether on these boards or in professional journals – involves asking questions, examining the text, discussing different interpretations, challenging ideas, and formulating a better appreciation of and greater pleasure in what Tolkien has done through such analyses. In fact, I would go further and posit that a major rewriting of history occurs when one is not willing to question or analyze any assumptions at all and remains paralyzed in an unexamined belief that clichés about past times are all true and require no further comment. But thank goodness that’s not the Reading Room that I love, which includes disagreements and debates and information and new ways of thinking about the text.

<ok, end of polemic>

A brief word about Timmons on hobbit sensuality
As sador points out, the title of Timmons's article is “Hobbit Sex and Sensuality in The Lord of the Rings.” It was published in Mythlore 89, Summer 2001 – it’s not available in my library’s online databases and I can’t find it on the internet anywhere, but I do have a print copy that I got through inter-library loan, so if anyone would like a copy, I would be happy to mail it to them (just send me an address by PM). Just to clarify: Timmons does not believe that there is any explicit sex in LotR; in fact, he states “No overt or implied sex scenes occur in Tolkien’s work.” Timmons covers various points in this article, including commenting on Partridge’s and Stimpson’s articles, Tolkien’s letters about sex, and the fact that hobbits obviously have sex because they have lots of children. I don’t agree with all of Timmons’s ideas and I think there are blind spots in his argument, but one point that I found interesting was his look at the hobbits’ sensual awareness of the feminine: their initial reaction to Goldberry; Frodo’s first sight of Arwen in Rivendell; the way Galadriel unsettles them when she looks at them. I’d be happy to discuss this article further if anyone has read it -- or if anyone has even read my post all the way to this point.

Oh, and sador, I have no particular enlightenment to offer about Sam and Rosie, though I do think it would be interesting to look at Sam’s blushes.




Curious
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 7:21pm


Views: 874
One quibble.


Quote
However, many fanfic writers do believe that the sexual dimension of the relationships they write about is implied in Tolkien’s text; there is something there that could turn into an explicit sexual relationship. As N.E.B. reports in one of his posts, the point has been made that the idea of a “Brokeback Mount Doom” video doesn’t come out of nowhere.


First of all, I'm unclear on whether these or your opinions, or just opinions you are repeating. But at any rate, I disagree. Just because something "could" have happened in Tolkien's fiction doesn't mean he implied that it "did" happen. What we do have is an intimate relationship between Sam and Frodo, including moments where they huddled together for warmth, where Sam held Frodo's hand, and where Sam carried Frodo. On some level, Sam clearly loves Frodo and vice versa. But that is not enough evidence to say that Tolkien implied a homosexual relationship, unless we make the deplorable assumption that heterosexual males are unlikely to develop such a relationship.

I would also note that we also know that Sam loves Rosie, and they have many babies together. While this does not rule out a premarital homosexual relationship, it does add to the evidence against it.



Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 2 2009, 9:02pm


Views: 501
****Caution: Naughty Word****

"There age-long she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadows; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world."

-Shelob's Lair

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 2 2009, 9:15pm


Views: 459
Oh thank you!

Looks like I conceded a point that I needn't have!

Wink

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 2 2009, 9:21pm


Views: 462
Hobbit sex

"Altogether 1420 in the Shire was a marvellous year. Not only was there wonderful sunshine and delicious rain, in due times and perfect measure, but there seemed something more: an air of richness and growth, and a gleam of a beauty beyond that of mortal summers that flicker and pass upon this Middle-earth. All the children born or begotten in that year, and there were many, were fair to see and strong, and most of them had a rich golden hair that had before been rare among hobbits."

-The Grey Havens

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



squire
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 10:03pm


Views: 485
SEX! *hush!* ok, sex.

"...such ideas [the nature of sexual relationships] were not explicitly discussed by most people in some other times in history (like the mid-20th century), or they weren’t discussed using the same terminology that we use today (like “homosexual”) and so were seen slightly differently."

My understanding of the earlier 20th century (pre-1960s) is that many people were discussing such things but not explicitly or not in general-audience publications. I believe this is a prime hunting ground for queer studies and gender studies: searching for records of what people were thinking and talking about regarding sexuality and gender, in a society where such things could not be talked about in "polite society" but where modernity (especially post-WW I) was knocking down barriers faster than they could be erected.

As with African-American studies and other minority-focused academic ventures, it turns out that there was far more being said and thought about out there than the majority white male-dominated bourgeois culture ever wanted to acknowledge or honor. If most people are literate - as they were in most Western societies since at least the mid-19th century - they will write stuff down, even if it doesn't get published in the mass media. And that stuff is turning up now, because scholars are looking for it for the first time.

You did qualify your statement with "most people" and "explicitly" and "some other times" but I thought the net effect was that "no one" talked about sex and sexuality before the past few decades. My impression from my reading of the past is that everyone thought about it
(just like now), almost everyone talked about it (now everyone talks about it), and many people wrote about it but privately (now you can't get away from it).

Tolkien was remarkable for his aversion to explicit questions of sexuality, in his own period (1940s-50s). Folks, writers were writing about this stuff, and selling big time, long before Tolkien hit the best seller charts. That's why he comes under such attack - he is definitely retro on this one. He knew it, and he fiercely defended his position, as "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" (or "The Sex Life of the Elves") testifies: it's "A Reply to Our Critics" that he wrote but never published in the 1950s. The resulting fascination of his audience with the sexuality of his characters (and his own aversion to fictional sexuality) is just as natural as their fascination with his invented languages or with his belief in the need for a modern mythology for England. Had he written in a more modern vein, there'd be a lot less slash or other forms of fan fic filling the vacuum.





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Curious
Half-elven


Jun 2 2009, 10:49pm


Views: 475
Good catch! But I'm not sure what it proves.

Technically, Ungoliant is a monogamist. After all, she killed each mate before taking another. But I suppose Tolkien considered that a violation of the spirit of monogamy, if not the letter, or he wouldn't have called her children "bastards."

Still, the extreme measures Ungoliant used to enable he to mate with many different partners may be evidence that monogamy is a natural law in Middle-earth. Isn't it strange that only a monster who killed each mate in turn was capable of having many mates? Perhaps there is one way around the natural law, but only Ungoliant is evil enough to resort to it. Furthermore, the fact that we know about Ungoliant's mating habits indicates that the mating habits of other evildoers has not been censored, for how could extramarital sex that does not involve murder be more repulsive than Ungoliant's practices?

Alternatively, perhaps monogamy is not a natural law among all species in Middle-earth, but there is still a glaring lack of illegitimate births in the extensive history of elves, humans, and hobbits. And we still have no record of a successful rape.


(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 2 2009, 10:52pm)


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 2 2009, 10:50pm


Views: 453
Of Course

Folks talked about sex - always have and always will.....

Getting it published, especially more explicit detailed accounts might be another story, depending on the publisher, author & need within the story, but certainly there are many cases where it was 'back then'.

Take 'The Maltese Falcon' where Joel Cairo is a Homosexual in the book. Due to the strict Hayes code in force in Hollywood at the time (mid 30's through the mid-50's), that is changed in the movie, but it is made just about as plain as day between the perfume he wears & how Sam Spade reacts to it, plus the not to subtle way Cairo handles his cane. Blush

Now to TLOR, first, what purpose in furthering the story would bringing in more sex serve? Honestly?
It is a book about a quest to rid Middle-earth of a tyrant trying to control the entire world known to the inhabitants, not 'Livestyles of the Peoples of Middle-earth'......

Next, did Tolkien publish TLOR expecting Middle-earth to become this real world fantasy that would be picked apart by others (and himself) to the 'Nth' degree?
To that extent, Tolkien has become a victim of his own thoroughness.......

Was/is the author required to make every last detail of that world fit every single picky reader's criterea of what is 'realistic', especially in a radically changed world some 50 to 60 years later?

I don't think so.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 2 2009, 11:57pm


Views: 450
Actually, the "her" is Shelob, not Ungoliant

I'm pretty sure that in that description it is Shelob herself that is described as killing her mates, not her ancestor Ungoliant. And I further point out that the "children" that Tolkien describes as "bastards" are also the product of incest, since those mates that she slew were her own off-spring, the previous generation of "bastards". And I'll also add that there is nothing in that description that suggests that she necessarily killed each mate before taking another, just that she killed them. It could as easily imply (and perhaps more logically suggests) that she had several mates at a time.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 12:12am


Views: 448
I don't see why

it would necessitate incest. After all, Ungoliant mated with male spiders as well. Where did they come from?

I'll admit that I assumed each male died before the next male mated. That could be wrong, although I don't see why it is more logical to assume that Shelob had several mates at a time.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 3 2009, 1:09am


Views: 459
Because it says that her mates were her own offspring

Here's the statement: "Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, ... ." Surely "her own offspring" is referring to "her miserable mates." We all seem to be in agreement that "that she slew" refers to "her miserble mates" so there is no way that "her own offspring" could not be referring to "her miserable mates" as well; the sentence wouldn't make any sense. At least, so I have always interpret it. Do you interpret it differently?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

www.arda-reconstructed.com


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 1:15am


Views: 426
No, that makes sense.//

 


Pryderi
Rivendell

Jun 3 2009, 1:28am


Views: 470
Your innocent post

has inadvertently hijacked this thread. I imagine Chris Vaccaro wanted to create a space where his/her students' questions could be posted without RR people thinking they were seeking unwarranted assistance for their assignments. I have some experience with students and the ones who I have met would be a bit intimdated by the erudite banter going on here. As it happens I believe I may have something to contribute to the ongoing debate about gender and sexuality but I am reluctant to do so here. I think "someone" (sorry don't know who) should remove all this fascinating sex and gender stuff (I have read it all!) to another thread and leave this one for Chris's students to post their questions to. What do you think? By the way, I noticed I just committed the sin of ending a sentence with a preposition. Oh dear!
Pryderi.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 3 2009, 3:07am


Views: 430
A preposition is something you shouldn't end a sentence with. /

 

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 3:59am


Views: 498
UVM students -- don't be shy, jump right in!

We don't bite. And we don't stand on ceremony. The first "official" UVM post two years ago garnered more than 100 responses that went in all sorts of tangents, many of which could not have been anticipated when the discussion started. So there's lots of room for more discussion here. You can respond to the sexuality subthread as you wish, or ignore it entirely and post whatever else you were considering for class directly as a response to Prof. Vaccaro's root post. I guarantee every student's response will get at least one good reply.

(And Pryderi, feel free to chime in with your thoughts on the sidetracking subthread!)

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FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 3 2009, 10:06am


Views: 444
Yes.

in 1420, we return from Faerie with our eyes open to the joy of 'ordinary life'. Tolkien deliberately wanted to show the relation of this to the "quests, sacrifices [and] causes" of the rest of the tale, as he explains in Letter 131:

Since we now try to deal with 'ordinary life', springing up ever unquenched under the trample of world policies and events, there are love-stories touched in, or love in different modes, wholly absent from The Hobbit. But the highest love-story, that of Aragorn and Arwen Elrond's daughter is only alluded to as a known thing. It is told elsewhere in a short tale, Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel. I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty.

If 'begetting' (and by extension, perhaps, sexual activity generally) doesn't make it into the main tale, Tolkien seems to be saying, that's just because it's not a part of the great theme of quests and sacrifice. He doesn't intend for us to imagine that these things aren't taking place at all - just that they are happening only in 'ordinary life', which is not part of the matter of the great tale.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings


a.s.
Valinor


Jun 3 2009, 10:50am


Views: 451
might as well try to stop the wind, as try to stop the RR when

they are in a tangential frame of mind.

Can't be done, can only button up one's figurative overcoat, when the wind (or the erudite banter) is free.

Cool

PLEASE comment on the tangents. Any comments from you or the students are most welcome.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"If any one had begun to rehearse a History, say not I know it well; and if he relate it not right and fully, shake not thine head, twinkle not thine eyes, and snigger not thereat; much less maist thou say, 'It is not so; you deceive yourself.'"

From: Youth's Behaviour, or, Decency in Conversation amongst Men, composed in French by Grave Persons, for the use and benefit of their Youth. The tenth impression. London, 1672



a.s.
Valinor


Jun 3 2009, 11:07am


Views: 462
breathing, eating, working, begetting...and

using the outhouse facilities (although I'm sure the Elves at Rivendell must have had superior technology, but it's hard to imagine what they did in Lothlorien up in those flets).

Not sure where to put these two general comments, so answering your comment that



Quote

If 'begetting' (and by extension, perhaps, sexual activity generally) doesn't make it into the main tale, Tolkien seems to be saying, that's just because it's not a part of the great theme of quests and sacrifice. He doesn't intend for us to imagine that these things aren't taking place at all - just that they are happening only in 'ordinary life', which is not part of the matter of the great tale.




with an "I agree". He doesn't mention them dealing with the digestion of food products, either. Most fiction writers don't. That doesn't mean they aren't visiting the outhouse, and in fact, it would be absurd to think they didn't.

I think it's absurd to think that the creatures in LOTR whose bodies operate in the usual mortal ways (hobbits, men) don't have all the usual bodily functions that come with eating food and having babies. Tolkien doesn't talk about them breathing, most of the time, but we assume they are breathing and sweating and shivering and, when they're sick, vomiting and coughing and etc.

Just part of mortal life. I don't think the absence of discussion of the mechanics of having babies is any indication that there are alternate means of having those babies within hobbit culture, any more than I think his lack of mention of using the outhouse meant there was an alternate means of disposing of the products of digestion.

I don't know about Elves. Passing on that one. Er. No pun intended there. It was accidental.

Cool

One other tangent: I don't know if I can agree that Faerie is far removed from sexuality. In fact, isn't a sort of heightened sensual/sexual aura part of the charm? La Belle Dame Sans Merci having one in thrall and all that?

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"If any one had begun to rehearse a History, say not I know it well; and if he relate it not right and fully, shake not thine head, twinkle not thine eyes, and snigger not thereat; much less maist thou say, 'It is not so; you deceive yourself.'"

From: Youth's Behaviour, or, Decency in Conversation amongst Men, composed in French by Grave Persons, for the use and benefit of their Youth. The tenth impression. London, 1672



FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 3 2009, 11:28am


Views: 443
A thought on your 'tangent'...


In Reply To
I don't know if I can agree that Faerie is far removed from sexuality. In fact, isn't a sort of heightened sensual/sexual aura part of the charm? La Belle Dame Sans Merci having one in thrall and all that?



Yes, I agree that sexuality is not "far removed" from Faerie. But I think Faerie works by harnessing all that "sensual/sexual aura" without dwelling on physical mundanities such as the sex act itself. Maybe the palely loitering knight has been literally engaged in physical sex with the Belle Dame, but that's not what the magic and the thralldom is really about, is it? The Belle Dame is a magical, otherworldly creature with whom lovemaking seems to take place on another plane entirely.

Perhaps that's what encourages fanfic writers too - Faerie does have that heightened sensual aura that probably draws on the same emotional response as sex does (so does religious ecstasy, if the famous sculpture of Saint Theresa is anything to go by). So if you're a modern reader who is used to sex being the primary motivator of these emotional responses, perhaps you simply need to add the sexual dimension explicitly into the equation.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 12:48pm


Views: 483
Yes, older fairy stories are often sensual.

In the older fairy stories, not written for children or by Tolkien, elves are notorious for sleeping with mortals, and even begetting half-elven children, out of wedlock. Many myths are full of philandering immortals -- in Greek mythology it was a requirement that heroes be the children of gods, and most of that begetting was out of wedlock. Christians insist that Mary was a virgin -- but Jesus was conceived out of wedlock.

Few histories discuss visiting the outhouse. But is there any lengthy history of royalty that doesn't mention extramarital sex or babies born out of wedlock? That's what I find strange about Tolkien's extensive history of elves and men. There is not even the hint of extramarital unions, and that is just so very different from real world histories, or even most other legends and myths.


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 1:08pm


Views: 434
You can talk with the admins about it on Feedback.

They could take you up on your suggestion, I believe, and move the subthread if they like. But I also agree with others that Reading Room threads are hard to control. That's their strength and their weakness. As long as it relates to something Tolkien wrote, and doesn't abuse anyone, pretty much anything goes. I hope you will jump in and contribute to the discussion.

In my experience, for some reason people are more willing to jump into a thread that has already started than to start one of their own. Perhaps I should start a thread each week for random thoughts that don't fit into any of the other active threads on the Board. I'll seriously consider doing that in the future. But in the meantime, I think people jumped into this thread because it saved them from having to start a new post.

The issue of being intimidated by erudite discussion has come up before as well. I confess I'm not sure how to address it. When I first joined this board, many years ago, Jackson's movies were just starting and many newbies posted questions on this board. I loved it, even though I answered the question "who is Bombadil" about a hundred times. But every time the discussion was different, and took different tangents. I miss those threads.

I hope that will happen again when The Hobbit comes out. But in the meantime other people have said that they fear to comment or ask questions because they think they might be judged by the regulars. No matter how often the regulars say newcomers are welcome, people still seem to feel that way. We've had some long discussions about how to handle it, and some interesting suggestions (more positive feedback, more questions designed for first-time readers, recognize and answer newcomers, less argument).

Although we do need to make such efforts, I'm not sure the problem will ever go away completely, because some people just feel intimidated about joining in a discussion that has been going on for so many years. Still, I think there are plenty of Reading Room denizens, many of whom joined within the last couple of years, who will tell you that once they got over those early jitters, they found the Reading Room a welcoming place. That was certainly my experience when I first joined.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 3 2009, 7:48pm


Views: 417
One Incident

I missed a couple posts here & don't have the time now to read the whole middle of the thread, so I don't know if this was mentioned:

'Then Morgoth looking upon her (luthien's) beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he had fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for a while, and taking secret pleasure in his thought.'

If this isn't implying that Morgoth wants to have sex with Luthien, I'm a monkey's uncle.


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 8:13pm


Views: 418
Yes, but

would he rape her, or force her to marry him, or be prevented from doing either (actually, we know he was prevented from doing either). I'm not saying characters don't lust, especially evil characters, but it is strange to me that based on all the records they act upon their lust by forcing marriages. Real world villains are not so scrupulous about marriage, it seems to me.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 3 2009, 9:13pm


Views: 406
Not Sure

I really don't know...

Morgoth never seemed like the marrying type to me though. Unsure

We certainly have the wonderful essays in Morgoth's Ring (Myths Tranformed) about Morgoth's nihilism that would seem to indicate Morgoth would not want a queen, but a sexual object as a 'queen' to use, that's another story.

Also, not knowing The Simarillion versus HoME like Voronwe, I have to wonder if Tolkien senior or junior actually wrote that exact passage and how it may have been reworded.....

Later as time allows (after dinner), I'll check out his book and find out. Wink


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 9:24pm


Views: 418
I would assume that depends on his master plan

If his intention is just to have his way with Luthien once, then rape is a viable option (speaking from his viewpoint, of course, not mine). But if his intention was to have a queen or an heir or just to control Luthien, then rape isn't enough; their 'union' has to have some measure of legitimacy. Perhaps it's not that Tolkien's characters don't think about rape, but that they have grander ambitions.



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Pryderi
Rivendell

Jun 3 2009, 9:51pm


Views: 447
Thanks to all who replied to me and ok I will "chime in"

My ideas are more on gender than on sex: how Tolkien portrays males and females of various "races" rather than on whether, and on what basis, they copulate with each other. As I have said before I was distressed by Stimpson's famous article when I inadvertently came across it shortly after it had been published. As a result I have been thinking about the issue of Tolkien's portrayal of women and female "creatures", in general, for a long time.
In my view his high regard for women cannot be doubted: particularly in their role as mothers. It is quite a useful exercise, I have found, to recast the hobbit genealogies in the appendices as though the family propagated through the female rather than the male line. I never completed the project, because I never do, but I think you would find that, despite the apparently male dominated story, the great matriarch Adamanta Chubb presided over all the (male) descendents we hear about. Indeed if the mother's name were inherited by the children rather than the father's then most of our heros would (rather boringly) be Chubbs.
Well we all know about Tolkien's regard for his own mother so perhaps this is not surprising but his female characters are not just maternal. They are often extremely active. My own favourite is probably Haleth (and her "folk"). There are sort of hints in the Silmarillion of the second house of the Edain being matriarchal although, apart from Haleth, they are led by men. "The Wanderings of Hurin" somewhere in HoME ( I forget) makes it more explicit that women have a strong role to play in the community of the Haladin.
On a different tack I came across a pile of books all called "modern children's literature: an introduction" (the lack of capitalisation is as on the cover) in a University bookshop a year or so ago. It was clearly a student text but as I have always been interested in children's literature I bought the top copy on the pile because it contained an essay by one Susan Hancock entitled "Fantasy Psychology and Feminism: Jungian Readings of Classic British Fantasy Fiction" and was clearly a "compare and contrast" between "The Hobbit" and "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe". Well I certainly enjoyed reading it! Hancock finds that the feminine is writ large in The Hobbit despite the lack of female characters. She explains to her audience that Belladonna is the only explicit female character but goes on to claim that the major female character is Middle Earth itself. Her most quotable quote is as follows: "Gandalf, who may be interpreted as an image of the Wise Old Man archetype.......comes to wrest Bilbo Baggins away from the womb like space, to propel him down a 'tube shaped hall like a tunnel' and out through a 'perfectly round door'". She goes on to point out that Beorn is the main character who contains both masculine and feminine elements because he is a vegetarian and likes animals as well as being a warrior. I have to say that despite my natural cynicism, I could see her point.
Her major point seems to be that The Hobbit is a children's book which embraces the feminine while contrasting it with The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe which, she claims, does not.
Do any of you have any thoughts on this? Having lurked for long enough I would not be surprised if one of you turned out to be Susan Hancock!
Pryderi.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 3 2009, 9:59pm


Views: 434
It proves...

...that there is a mention of illegitimate babies.

You asked for a cite, and here it is.

What else were you expecting?

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



squire
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 10:24pm


Views: 393
I read an extensive analysis of The Hobbit along those lines once

I couldn't swear it wasn't Hancock. The point was that gender and sex are not one and the same, and a good story must be balanced between genders (nurturing/adventuring, etc.) whether the characters are of both sexes or technically all male or all female. It's a matter of symbolism and sensibility, but the writer managed to make a case for a number of major Hobbit characters (ostensibly male) taking on "female" roles in terms of traditional story narrative.

Without exploring Mme. Chubb's matriarchy further, remember that Bilbo's entire introduction in The Hobbit is centered on his descent from the "famous" and "remarkable" Belladonna Took. As you say, many critics have pointed to his affection for/domination by his mother and his older wife, and his distance from his missing father and closeness to his celibate foster-father, as an explanation for his tangled use of women characters in his apparently wholly male-dominated stories.

It's hard to keep such analyses under control once they are begun. C. S. Lewis had his own remarkably tangled relationship with women too, making the Narnia tales a very interesting comparison to The Hobbit in this regard. But can we really reduce these sophisticated and intelligent authors to mechanoids supposedly dominated by some unproveable and unconscious gender-identities?



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squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Pryderi
Rivendell

Jun 3 2009, 11:12pm


Views: 358
In answer to your question: No We Can't.//

 


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 3 2009, 11:36pm


Views: 367
That's a very interesting theory.


Quote
Her major point seems to be that The Hobbit is a children's book which embraces the feminine while contrasting it with The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe which, she claims, does not.


I was just commenting the other week that I saw a good deal of birthing and rebirthing imagery in the passage through Mirkwood, and I even called Bilbo the dwarves' midwife (although I called him their undertaker as well, and noted death imagery along with the rebirth imagery). In the past we have commented on how Sam mothers Frodo in LotR.

Perhaps in stories devoid of female characters, some of the men will take on gender roles typically given to women. But it is hard to say how much of this is due to our own projections of what we consider feminine.

I wonder how The Hobbit would change if Bilbo were played by a woman. Or Gandalf. Or Beorn. It would be an interesting experiment. I'm not sure it would make much difference, since there is no romance -- although some people might wonder if Balin was flirting with Bilbo!



Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 4 2009, 12:42am


Views: 368
Don't Buy It

I'm sorry, but I cannot see that everything an author (especially this author who destested allegory) writes has to have some other deeper meaning that other folks try to force feed the text through to have it come out to fit their agendas.....

So Hobbits live in holes & holes naturally have tunnels. That makes it an analogy for the female birth canal? No more than a gun that MUST be straight & long to operate must be the old palic symbol routine? I don't buy either one at all.

As I said before months ago when the discussion came up about all these hidden meaning for the Great River, sometimes a river is simply a river that the Company needed to sail down and realistic geography dictated be placed somewhere on the map (not to mention explain Sauron's forces being kept at bay) and a hole is simply what Tolkien chose to have Hobbits live in.

This isn't the bible full of allegorical stories with muliple meanings, it's a childrens story, written before much of the material on Middle-earth even existed at that.

But, I guess such simple explanations don't make for very good essays or books, not to mention college classes.....


(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Jun 4 2009, 12:43am)


squire
Half-elven


Jun 4 2009, 1:17am


Views: 416
Even when it's on sale? Cheap?

"...a hole is simply what Tolkien chose to have Hobbits live in."

Think about that for a second. Who else lives in holes?

No one. No human culture does. What Tolkien wrote in a fit of absent-minded creation ("in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit") is off the map, as far as reality is concerned. THIS IS NOT AN ACCIDENT. And he didn't think so, either.

Take it from there - or not. But symbols are real, and metaphors have meaning, when you are telling a story. Tolkien himself spent endless pages of the early drafts of "The New Hobbit" sequel (later known as The Fellowship of the Ring) working out the hobbits' relationship to two-storied buildings, which they abhorred without knowing why. These are the sections that were soon rejected as being "too much hobbit talk" by the Unwin lad who had so liked The Hobbit. Tolkien apologized, cut some of it and moved the rest to the Foreword. For the entire rest of the story, he explored the hobbits' relationship to the earth, and their aversion to heights.

You don't have to buy that Bag End is a metaphor for the birth canal (is there a "male birth canal"?). But I think you should keep an open mind to the idea that Tolkien himself was interested in this question of hobbit holes, and living underground, and the long-understood and traditional connection of cave journeys with burial and rebirth. He was not a fool. Where inspiration beckoned, he followed; but later he reflected on where he had gone, and why. And then he went back and polished into deliberate art what had begun as unconscious creation.






squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 4 2009, 3:48am


Views: 348
Been Here Before

I think Tolkien would get a real laugh out of the way folks have reinterpreted his work these days......

Certainly, not every case is way off base.

It's out of control - the horse is out of the barn and isn't getting put back in any time soon, that is for sure.

.


sador
Half-elven

Jun 4 2009, 7:11am


Views: 349
You know, I could argue even with that

Remembering Treebeard's words about the "black evil" of crossing orcs and men (which you yourself speculated about here), and that Morgoth's main lust was after power and light - wouldn't he think that poor Luthien would be excellent for breeding a new race for the terror of the world?
Consider that in the Book of Lost Tales Gothmog (with a different name) is mentioned as the son of Melko, and supposedly so are the other Balrogs - just think how wonderful this would be, adding the blood of the Eldar (not too much; genetically, Luthien is half Ainu already) to a new race of demons! How deliciously wicked!
There is no need to subject the Prince of the World to our own animal appetites; he would watch porn with the eye of a connosieur, judging which would serve his high politics best.

Or even more - couldn't Melkor be casting about for his Captains? The Hobbit says dragons like maidens best - why shouldn't this apply to Balrogs? Just think of the poor girl, spending the rest of her life mending broken wings (which we're not even sure are there)! Shudder...

Once we suppose a lust is not just sexual arousal, this could be a way of reading this passage. And it definitely would be "a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he had fled from Valinor", which a simple rape wouldn't be (of course, he could rape her first, and then pass her on).


But I'm not quite disagreeing with you, because of a different reason: The Silmarillion somewhere (perhaps about his duel with Fingolfin?) mentions Morgoth as the only one of the Valar who ever knew fear. Using biblical imagery, I might consider him to be the only one of them to have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. And that does involve desire together with fear. In a way, the two go together: it's one thing to know pain and pleasure, but another thing to have your heart and mind overwhelmed by the anticipation of future pain (fear) or pleasure (lust).
Being subject to one, I expect Morgoth would be subject to the other as well.

"And winter comes after autumn." - Bifur

(This post was edited by sador on Jun 4 2009, 7:15am)


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 4 2009, 7:38am


Views: 364
Projection is certainly a danger.

I agree that we need to be careful about projecting our own agendas onto the text. However Tolkien himself, in his letters, was willing to examine the allegorical or symbolic meanings in LotR. In some cases he admitted that he did not consciously incorporate symbolism into the story, but still accepts that, for example, his own Catholicism very likely influenced the story in unconscious ways. And Tolkien himself said that Death, and Escape from Death, is a major theme not just in his own stories but in many fairy tales and fantasies.

I don't think it is a stretch to note that The Hobbit is filled with caves and tunnels. We have Bag End, the Trolls' cave, the goblin tunnels, the tunnel through Mirkwood, the Elfking's caverns, and of course the tunnels and caves in the Lonely Mountain. In addition, the dwarves are wrapped in webs by the Spiders, imprisoned in cells by the Elfking, and enclosed in barrels by Bilbo. It's natural, I think, to wonder what this all means. We can disagree about what it means, and I agree, again, that we have to watch out for projections, but I don't think it is far fetched to theorize that it means something, and possibly symbolizes death and rebirth, which is both a Catholic theme and a theme Tolkien identified in fairy stories.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 4 2009, 9:22am


Views: 350
The feminine without the female.

I like your points about the 'feminine' qualities and symbolism that occur in Tolkien's work despite the dearth of actual females. In fact, I wonder if it's the lack of actual females that allows these feminine qualities to be expressed so fully, both through the male characters and through one of the chief characters of LotR, Middle-earth itself.

I have sometimes wondered whether the attitudes of Tolkien's time had something to do with his preference for using male characters. In cultures where men and women tend to be kept apart (as they were in Tolkien's day - separate schools, separate rooms in the pub, separate clubs, and even the university Common Room closed to the few females who managed to get onto the faculty), men start to seem like the "default" gender, for whom anything is possible, while women (from the men's point of view) are strange creatures who immediately distract them because they are instantly aware of them sexually. Tolkien seems to have believed that between men and women, sex is bound to intrude, as he writes in a letter to his son Michael (Letter 43):

"This is a fallen world. The dislocation of the sex-instinct is one of the chief symptoms of the Fall. ... The various social norms shift, and each new mode has its special dangers: but the 'hard spirit of concupiscence' has walked down every street, and sat leering in every house, since Adam fell.... In this fallen world the 'friendship' that should be possible between all human beings, is virtually impossible between man and woman. The devil is endlessly ingenious, and sex is his favourite subject. He is as good every bit at catching you through generous romantic or tender motives, as through baser or more animal ones. This 'friendship' has often been tried: one side or the other nearly always fails... no-one can count on it. The other partner will let him (or her) down, almost certainly, by 'falling in love'."

This viewpoint, for me, at least explains what Tolkien was doing with Aragorn and Eowyn - Eowyn had the same great ideals of fighting for her people as did her brother and the other Men who followed Aragorn. But the tragedy of her gender meant that she couldn't follow Aragorn out of pure devotion - she had to spoil it all by falling in love!

I think that's at the basis of Tolkien's choice to portray most of the 'feminine' qualities through male characters - with them (as he saw it) there was no sexuality involved at all, and the purity of the emotion could be portrayed without the 'leering' of 'concupiscence' getting in the way. Of course, he had no way of knowing that a change in culture would make it socially possible both for men and women to be 'just friends', and for two men to be more than just friends! I suspect that men resisted so hard against allowing women into their fastnesses, and against accepting homosexuality, precisely because within their own world they could interact without worrying about sex or 'falling in love' distracting them at all. It gave them a creative and emotional freedom that I think, to some extent, men have lost, to the advantage of us women.

It's perhaps this change of culture that makes some modern readers want to insert sexuality where none was intended. We are surrounded by sexuality now, and sense that it must underlie all great emotional bonds between people. But sex is only one (if the most common and easily achieved) of the intense experiences that forms bonds between people. Tolkien experienced at least one other - that of comrades in arms.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jun 4 2009, 2:00pm


Views: 356
And Tolkien certainly recognized such symbolism in other stories.

Here is a passage from his essay on his own story, Smith of Wootton Major (I copied this from another site, but from memory I think it looks like the excerpt has been accurately transcribed):


Quote
Entry into the 'geographical' bounds of Faery also involves entry into Faery Time. How does a mortal 'enter' the geographical realm of Faery? Evidently not in dream or illusion. Physical objects, such as the star, the Living Flower, and the elvish toy, survive transplantation from Faery to the World. It is common in Fairy tales for the entrance to the fairy world to be presented as a journey underground, into a hill or mountain or the like. The origins of this do not concern me here. They lie largely in necrological imagination. But as used they are often mere 'rationalizations' - like the diminution in the size of 'elves' - a way of providing for a land of marvels within the same geography as that of Men. They are no more credible and no more interesting than Edgar Rice Burroughs tales dealing with a vast subterranean world. To me they kill the very kind of literary belief that they are supposed to produce.
My symbol is not the underground, whether necrological and Orphic or pseudo-scientific in jargon, but the Forest: the regions still immune from human activities, not yet dominated by them (dominated! not conquered!).


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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!

Join us June 1-7 for "On the Doorstep".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 4 2009, 2:05pm


Views: 330
I Think

Your take on Morgoth with Luthien spawning Orcs has validity.....

Certainly. But she's dancing before him, which is usually scene as an enticing act.
Who knows as Tolkien doesn't get into details.

Balrog plaything? I wouldn't put much stock in that one myself.


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 4 2009, 2:17pm


Views: 346
Not Done Yet

Of course, he had no way of knowing that a change in culture would make it socially possible both for men and women to be 'just friends',

Well, in the passage you quote, Tolkien isn't talking about men & women not being able to be friends because of society, although, as you well put it, it was a foreign idea in his time (although always lessening).
So I'm not so sure that Tolkien, as a staunch Catholic believing in a fallen world with inputed sinful nature in each individual, would believe otherwise despite these radically changed times we live in 60 years later......

And, not all in society would agree with your asessment either. Remember 'When Harry Met Sally'?

I think you underestimate the way men really think. Wink

It is, after all, as Tolkien said, a fallen world and you never really know what is going on in somebody's head despite their actions.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 5 2009, 7:41am


Views: 335
Well, you know how it is...


In Reply To
I think you underestimate the way men really think. Wink



... I guess we women always think we have you men figured out! And being married to one (for nearly 40 years - *gulp*) and having raised two, I'm probably more overconfident than most. But no doubt we don't really know what's going on in your minds, any more than you claim to know what's going on in ours...

Tongue

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 6:58pm


Views: 316
Ummm...

Didn't Tolkien somewhere say that Sam couldn't have achieved what he did without his "rustic love for his Rose"? I could have sworn that I read that somewhere.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 7:09pm


Views: 365
Blonde Gamgees

In reference to illegitimacy, I think that this is another of those things that Tolkien is too much of a gentleman to state baldly, yet can discreetly leave clues for, for those who wish to follow them. In this case, I will bullet-point the clues in order, arguing for illegitimacy, or at least sex out of wedlock, in Middle Earth:
  • Blonde Gamgees crop up now and then (as in Sam's sister Marigold.)
  • Blondeness is a trait associated with Fallowhides, not Harfoots or Stoors. Tolkien himself mentioned that Marigold's blondeness indicates Fallowhide blood among the Gamgees.
  • We pretty much know all of the Fallowhide families, because their names keep repeating in the family trees of the most respectable hobbits, to the point where they all eventually wind up cousins.
  • None of these names officially appear in the Gamgee family tree.
  • The Gamgees include servants to Fallowhides.
  • Servant girls were notorious, in that era mirrored by the Shire, for getting pregnant by their masters and then hastily marrying someone of their own class to cover it up.

I cannot see a more feasible way for blonde genes to wind up among the Gamgees. If you can come up with a more elegant explanation, considering Tolkien's decision not to include a single name in the Gamgee family tree recognizeable from any of the Fallowhide family trees, by all means please share it.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 7:29pm


Views: 325
Rising to the challenge


Quote
using the outhouse facilities (although I'm sure the Elves at Rivendell must have had superior technology, but it's hard to imagine what they did in Lothlorien up in those flets).

UUT: Elves think nothing of slipping up and down ladders in a hurry. So, down below the flets, deep folds in the tree allow privacy to release that which cleverly-wrought holes take straight to the trees roots where they do most good.

Quote
He doesn't mention them dealing with the digestion of food products, either. Most fiction writers don't. That doesn't mean they aren't visiting the outhouse, and in fact, it would be absurd to think they didn't.


Maybe they don't. I really wonder about those poor dwarves stuck in barrels for 48 hours.

Quote
Tolkien doesn't talk about them breathing, most of the time, but we assume they are breathing and sweating and shivering and, when they're sick, vomiting and coughing and etc.


  • Lorien Elves comment on how they could have shot the Fellowship in the dark just by the sound of their breath.
  • Elves don't sweat, they glisten. As in "Doom fell on Tinuviel, that in his arms lay glistening." Or, if that's not enough (and it's a stretch) the hobbits were soon sweating after their escape from the Barrow Downs, because, having lost their warm weather clothes, they were obliged to put on clothes packed for colder weather.
  • Sam sees Frodo shivering and warms him with his arms, regretting that they have no blankets.
  • Shelob vomits darkness.
  • I can't think of coughing off the top of my head, but Bilbo's sneezing after he caught cold kind of spoiled his invisibility act.



Quote
One other tangent: I don't know if I can agree that Faerie is far removed from sexuality. In fact, isn't a sort of heightened sensual/sexual aura part of the charm? La Belle Dame Sans Merci having one in thrall and all that?


Fairies/Elves in fairy stories are indeed a sexy lot!

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Jun 6 2009, 7:31pm)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 7:40pm


Views: 327
Interesting premise!

I like that, of Middle Earth being the predominant female of Tolkien's writings. That would go along with something I'd noticed, that the more society limited the roles that women could play, the more forces of nature were identified as female. I was really startled in reading John Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath", faithfully reproducing the dialect that he had heard, that everything without a gender became "she" rather than it.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 7:49pm


Views: 328
Archetypes aren't allegories

Tolkien rejected allegories, not archetypes. An allegory is where the writer chooses the symbol quite deliberately and beats you over the head with it, allowing only that one, single interpretation, applicable only to what he tells you to apply it to. Archetypes are symbols that crop up whether people intend them or not, can be recognized across cultural barriers, and always seem applicable to the times, no matter how the times change.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 7:52pm


Views: 319
Horse liberation!

Now what earthly use is a horse who never leaves the barn?

(Pssst...somebody should warn Tolkien Forever that he just used a--*shudder* --symbol! For surely he did not literally insert a non sequitor of a horse leaving a barn in a discussion that has nothing to do with livestock.)

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 8:01pm


Views: 328
I have staunch faith in heterosexual friendships

I have had many male friends without any sexual element in them whatsoever (like right here on this board!) And my husband has many female friends, and his best friend is a woman. There may still be dinosaurs yet among us who to this very day think that such relations are impossible, yet they do so only by closing their eyes to what exists.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 6 2009, 9:04pm


Views: 299
Well, not exactly...


In Reply To
Didn't Tolkien somewhere say that Sam couldn't have achieved what he did without his "rustic love for his Rose"?



In fact I quoted that bit about the 'rustic love' in another post in this thread - GMTA!

But as you'll see if you follow the link, Tolkien didn't say Sam's 'rustic love' let him achieve what he did, but that it's an essential part of who he is - that it represents the 'ordinary life' that is one half of Sam, in contrast to the half of him that loves Elves and Dragons (the two halves that leave him 'torn in two', you could say, before he learns to be one and whole).

Faerie may be full of sensuality, but it's not really about the basic bodily activities ("breathing, eating, working, begetting") that include sex itself. They are an important part of life, too, of course, but not the part that is concerned with "quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty".

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Pryderi
Rivendell

Jun 6 2009, 10:45pm


Views: 327
Thank you Dreamdeer

I think we should all be free to interpret texts as we see them. So for instance I am one of those who interprets the plain text as denying the existence of Balrog's wings. I say this not to stimulate discussion (Please No!) but just as a newcomer, to make his position clear. For me at least the metaphor and symbolism that Tolkien offers is infinitely interpretable and that is why we enjoy discussing his writings. I have some sympathy for the position that I think is Tolkien Forever's that much of this sort of analysis is "pretentious claptrap" and I would laugh along with others at a well devised and written parody (such as "Bored of the Rings" which I find hilarious and not "dated" at all. Most of the cultural allusions escaped me then and they still do now). But I suppose the main thing for me is that Tolkien's writings are extremely important to me for reasons which I do not fully understand and I am very interested in learning how others think about it in order to help me to improve my understanding. For me what may or may not be hidden beneath the surface of the text is very important and I find other people's multifarious views very helpful to my own efforts to find my own understanding. Thank you again for prompting me to compose this post and clear my head at least a bit!

Pryderi.


kejensenuvm
The Shire

Jun 7 2009, 3:06am


Views: 309
plug for the UVM class reading!

I think Frodo and Bilbo's unmarried status reflects Tolkien's views of marriage which he states in Letter 43 (one of our readings). Tolkien describes marriage as a mistake, as something one needs will and effort in order to complete faithfully, if not at all. Marriage would have, as I would take it, interfer with the journeys and givings of both Frodo and Bilbo.
THoughts?


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 7 2009, 9:00am


Views: 311
That's an plausible theory, but it's only a theory.

My own theory -- that there is no extramarital sex -- is also just a theory. There are other ways to explain a Fallohide strain in the Gamgee family. Not every marriage is represented in the family trees Tolkien gives us, and recessive strains can stay hidden for generations. Intermarriage between Fallohides and Harfoots is not unheard of, as we see with Sam's own children. Also, in 1420 every hobbit child had golden hair, so there are other ways for that to happen as well.

So, are you suggesting that Marigold could be Bilbo's daughter? And Sam could be Bilbo's son, for that matter? That's a rich source for fan fiction, but for me it isn't suggested by anything Tolkien writes, even though it would be perfectly plausible in the Primary World.


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 7 2009, 9:15am


Views: 302
Tolkien seems to go out of his way

to make sure that his adventurers are bachelors, even in a society where bachelorhood is rare. Yet he could have made Bilbo and Frodo young bachelors like Sam, Merry and Pippin. He could have had them marry after their adventures. He could have given Bilbo a circle of friends closer to his own age. I think he chose, instead, to set Bilbo and Frodo apart from the rest of the Shire. I think that is part of an undertone of melancholy in LotR, subtle with Bilbo, and stronger with Frodo.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 7 2009, 10:33am


Views: 417
That sounds much too hard-edged for Tolkien...


In Reply To
So, are you suggesting that Marigold could be Bilbo's daughter? And Sam could be Bilbo's son, for that matter?



I think what Dreamdeer is suggesting (at least, it's how I read her post, and I find it very plausible) is that Tolkien is hinting, without intending any specifics, that there are other things going on in the Shire (and the rest of Middle-earth) that didn't get written down. So somebody somewhere in the past had a serving-maid who fell pregnant by the son of the household, for example, just as happened so often in the real world. Often the serving-maid would return home and her mother would rear the child as her own. Lots of small, private events of this kind can allow DNA to follow paths that the written records know nothing about (I've heard geneticists call this the 'milkman effect' Blush).

To me, your theory that there is no extramarital sex in Middle-earth just seems too 'scientific' to be imposed on Middle-earth. It's a place where nothing is ever that cut-and-dried, somehow. I know that nothing is mentioned outright, but there are enough small hints that things are going on (besides the attempted rape, there's also the 'torture' of Celebrian that might be a rape that dare not speak its name), that would make me hesitate to be categorical about this at all. Middle-earth, for me, is a mysterious and wonderful place that can never be completely pinned down, since we see it only through the accounts of the (fictional) people who wrote the stories through which we know it.

(That said, I still take your point at as a mythology, the mythology of Middle-earth is very different from most mythologies in the lack of extramarital sex, jealous wives, illegitimate heroes and all the rest. But that's looking at things from a different perspective - after all, you presumably don't use the Greek, or Norse, or Celtic, legends and myths to extrapolate what actually happened in those societies. The way people choose to tell their stories may represent the fears and desires of those people, perhaps, rather than the full truth of their everyday reality.)


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



squire
Half-elven


Jun 7 2009, 3:19pm


Views: 429
Hints and allegations

I don't think Tolkien was interested in "hinting" that masters impregnated their female servants in Middle-earth. If you asked him outright, he might mutter "of course, of course, sin exists" but he also might answer with his famous "I don't care". Like questions of technology, economics and class, the rules and nature of this world's sexual activities was not interesting to him as he spun his web of tales.

What he liked to hint was that Middle-earth was bigger and more mysterious than the few tales he was telling us, so that we could more readily accept the existence of wonder and magic in a secondary world that seems so earth-like in so many ways. I don't think he saw master-servant sex, extramarital sex, or questions of rape, as wondrous. True love and loyal friendships, as well as ancient feuds and the corruption of power, were the personal relations that he wished to turn into magic.

I take the blonde hair and Fallohide connections in the Gamgee family as signs that Sam and his kin are blessed, not rape victims. As always, I shiver at the implications that blond is better in an Aryan nation kind of way, but I think that's a more documentable, and interesting, discussion than trying to demonstrate illegitimate parenthood using the highly stylized family trees in the Appendices.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 7 2009, 4:24pm


Views: 407
Yes, I agree.


In Reply To
What he liked to hint was that Middle-earth was bigger and more mysterious than the few tales he was telling us, so that we could more readily accept the existence of wonder and magic in a secondary world that seems so earth-like in so many ways.



I did say something like this myself, but I put the emphasis on the flip-side of it for the purposes of my argument. As you say, his attitude to all the mundane, sordid stuff probably would have been "I don't care". My point was not meant to be that Tolkien actually wants us to imagine the sordid stuff, just that he leaves things vague enough that none of it can be ruled out - it's just ignored, so that he can concentrate on what does matter - the wonder, and magic, and ideal values that are so easily choked out of the ordinary world by all that stuff about "master-servant sex, extramarital sex, or questions of rape".

But what he doesn't do, in my opinion, is depict a perfect, idealized world in which "extramarital sex is impossible". That wouldn't be earth-like, and so he would lose that "exquisite balance" (as you put it in another post) between "romantic heroism and realism", leaving us in a one-dimensional fairy-tale world that no longer balanced our own. Without that shadow of the real world behind it, would the secondary world be as vivid and convincing as it is?

I certainly don't think there's any need for the reader to wonder how that Fallohide blood got into Sam's family - and in fact, if Tolkien hadn't let us see behind the story by writing that note for the translator, we probably would never have thought of it at all. We would have known only what we are told in LotR - that it was a mysterious, magical effect of Galadriel's box of earth. But the note to the translator tells us that Tolkien had thought of it - it seems he was quite deliberate in letting hints of the real world underpin the magic.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 7 2009, 5:27pm


Views: 394
Good point.


In Reply To
I think Frodo and Bilbo's unmarried status reflects Tolkien's views of marriage which he states in Letter 43 (one of our readings). ... Marriage would have, as I would take it, interfer with the journeys and givings of both Frodo and Bilbo.



Although this Letter is all about marriage, I think Tolkien would probably have subscribed to the Catholic belief that celibacy is a greater calling than marriage. Frodo and Bilbo both have "vocations", I would say - their lives are given to greater things than marriage.


In Reply To
Tolkien describes marriage as a mistake, as something one needs will and effort in order to complete faithfully, if not at all.


I think Tolkien is calling marriage a "mistake" (which he puts in quotes, if I remember correctly) only in the sense that almost no-one marries the "ideal" person - the odds of the exact two people who were "made for each other" meeting at just the right time being so incredibly small. I don't think he's telling his son that getting married at all is a mistake - for most people, I think he would say that it is the right and natural thing to do. But as he says, it's not just about romance or personal fulfilment, it takes work and self-denial at times.

I don't think I'd ever read the middle section of this Letter before, where he gives the details of his own early life with his wife. It's interesting that he married her and got her pregnant before he went off to war - I think this was a very common decision at the time, and in fact I imagine it's always been an inspiration to men, to know that they have left a physical legacy in the world if they die. Yet he didn't let his own imaginary heroes, Aragorn and Sam, take this route.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jun 7 2009, 5:35pm)


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Jun 7 2009, 5:44pm


Views: 398
Online....

Online frienships hardly are they same as face to face real life when we are talking about friendships versus intentions....

Besides, that post was tongue in cheek.

The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 7 2009, 7:50pm


Views: 400
I don't reject your theory. Do you reject mine?

I've always said it is possible that Tolkien's extensive history of Middle-earth is simply scrubbed clean of any reference to extramarital sex (unless we count Shelob) because either Tolkien or his fictional historians were reluctant to discuss such matters. But the difference from Primary World history is, I hope you'll agree, striking. We can choose to view Tolkien's history as censored, or we can accept it as true. If we judge by Primary World standards, we must go with the censored theory, but if we accept that this is Tolkien's fantasy, I think that it is equally plausible to accept what he tells us as true, within the conceits of his fictional world.


squire
Half-elven


Jun 7 2009, 9:16pm


Views: 387
But not his own

"My symbol is not the underground, whether necrological and Orphic or pseudo-scientific in jargon, but the Forest: the regions still immune from human activities, not yet dominated by them (dominated! not conquered!)."

I have to assume that "my symbol is the Forest" is about how a mortal enters Faerie (as with Alice falling into the hole to Wonderland) and solely in the context
of Smith of Wooton Major. He is not addressing the adventures of those inside Faerie, for which there are countless examples of a "journey underground, into a hill or a mountain or the like" in his Middle-earth works, especially The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. But he seems remarkably immune to introspection regarding his use of "necrological and Orphic" symbolism for the "entry to Faerie" in those works, just because he did it more subtly than earlier story tellers did.

The Hobbit
begins with "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit", for goodness sake - in a symbolic way, the entire rest of the book takes place within, or on the other side of, that hobbit hole. The Lord of the Rings deliberately repeats the same hobbit hole as its opening setting and theme. Both books end at the door to the hobbit hole, too - so that the reader emerges from the ground and returns to reality. He may have made his stories more "credible and interesting" by transforming the underground journey from a literal one to a metaphorical one; but clearly he too felt compelled to take his reader underground (in the person of hobbit protagonists), rather than into the woods. Smith of Wooton Major with its magical woods as the gateway to fairy land is an exception, not a rule, with Tolkien.




squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 7 2009, 9:31pm


Views: 394
Not Bilbo!


In Reply To
My own theory -- that there is no extramarital sex -- is also just a theory. There are other ways to explain a Fallohide strain in the Gamgee family. Not every marriage is represented in the family trees Tolkien gives us, and recessive strains can stay hidden for generations. Intermarriage between Fallohides and Harfoots is not unheard of, as we see with Sam's own children. Also, in 1420 every hobbit child had golden hair, so there are other ways for that to happen as well.

So, are you suggesting that Marigold could be Bilbo's daughter? And Sam could be Bilbo's son, for that matter? That's a rich source for fan fiction, but for me it isn't suggested by anything Tolkien writes, even though it would be perfectly plausible in the Primary World.



No no no no no! Blush Certainly not our Bilbo! Frankly, I think the Ring would have interfered with any kind of romance in his life. All I'm saying is that somewhere back in the Gamgee family line, Tolkien says there was a Fallowhide, and I expect that he knows best. And since no Fallowhide names show up in the family tree, I presume that they sowed their wild oats, so to speak, outside the official version of who fathered whom. And it cropped up later.

I have blue eyes. I have two brown-eyed parents born to brown-eyed parents. Now, as you know, blue eyes are recessive and the gene needs to come from both sides. There's no surprise that blue eyes might surface somewhere along the white side of the family, but the Indian side brings up questions. As it turns out, I have an ancestress on the Indian side who served as a maid to a rich Italian family living in Yaqui country. She had a passionate romance with the son and heir who (when she turned up pregnant) informed her that he could not possibly marry an Indian, his family would be so upset. (Then there also happens to be Contreras, the renegade Spaniard who disowned his own people to run off with the Yaquis, but that's yet another story.) (And there are enough Indians on the White side of the family to balance out the Whites on the Indian side rather tidily, all things considered.)

The point being, I know how genes can lie dormant for generations. And I also know how upper-crust genes usually find their way into the servant population, particularly in societies so stuffy about who marries whom that the upper eschelons all wind up marrying cousins--a pattern that fits hobbits to a tee.

And yes, Sam's daughter married a Took. But then he was a famous hero, and the book does mention that the Gardner and the Cotton families increased in status after this. As Darkstone pointed out, people suddenly "discovered" him to be a Fallowhide after all. That made intermarrying with his family much more permissible.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


squire
Half-elven


Jun 7 2009, 10:20pm


Views: 398
"Frankly, I think the Ring would have interfered with any kind of romance in his life."

So Bilbo was ... ah ... "less than a man" or rather "less than a hobbit", eh? Well, Bored of the Rings is on target yet again:
For as surely as the Ring gives power, just as surely it becomes the master! The wearer slowly changes, and never to the good. He grows mistrustful and jealous of his power as his heart hardens. He loves overmuch his strengths and develops stomach ulcers. He becomes logy and irritable, prone to neuritis, neuralgia, nagging backache, and frequent colds. Soon no one invites him to parties anymore.
"Logy and irritable, prone to neuritis, neuralgia, nagging backache..." Obviously it's only because TV ads couldn't mention it back in the 1960s, that "impotence" is not on this classic list of Madison Avenue's Ring-caused ailments.

Some people might have assumed it to be the other way around - that the Ring gives its wearer the kind of Power that makes Viagra look like so much vitamin C. Certainly Boromir and Galadriel think so:

"The Ring would give me power of Command!" "All shall love me, and despair!"




squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 7 2009, 11:08pm


Views: 384
Middle-earth isn't idealized?


Quote
But what he doesn't do, in my opinion, is depict a perfect, idealized world



Maybe you choose to see Middle-earth as gritty and realistic, or hinting at gritty realism that the author is too polite to mention. I do not. But I see Tolkien's idealization as a feature, not a flaw. Of course there is evil in Middle-earth, but it is mostly externalized -- evil has its source in Sauron (with hints of Morgoth before him) and his tools and minions, and only after the Ring is unmade, Sauron falls, and his minions either perish with him or are conquered do we realize that evil has not died with him. Instead it has grown more muddy, with the source more mundane and harder to locate -- but after the Scouring it has been banished from the Shire for a long while, even if not forever.

I think Tolkien was quite conscious of the stark differences between his Secondary World and the Primary World. He was most concerned about making Middle-earth internally consistent. But he also hoped that it would give people hope by giving readers a glimpse of evangelium -- in other words, of a gleaming, shiny idealized world that might be in our own future, as unlikely as that might seem. To make a world which is idealized but also vivid and real and believable and inspiring -- now there is a worthy work of art! I think Middle-earth is all of that.


(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 7 2009, 11:09pm)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 2:08am


Views: 375
Um...misunderstanding

As ownership of it wears on the Ring interferes with a person's ability to "grow or obtain new life"--but I did not mean this in the physical sense. I meant that marriage is a major growth experience. The Ring isolated Bilbo. He became somehow undesirable as a mate, despite being eligible and wealthy.

However, hobbit that he is, Bilbo managed to sidestep the Ring messing up his life by hurling himself into another growth-experience: he adopted Frodo. I am sure this was extraordinary, perhaps even miraculous, that he could manage so selfless an act at all, and I believe in fact that it saved him from succumbing completely to the Ring's power.

Had he not adopted Frodo (and opened his door to Frodo's friends, and become once again anchored, however slightly, to community life) I believe that Bilbo would have become completely isolated, maybe even paranoid. Rather than depart with a grand party for all and sundry, he would have crossly stormed out of the Shire alone into the wilderness, trusting no one, and become easy pickings for the stirring minions of the Dark Lord.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Atlas
Bree


Jun 8 2009, 2:18am


Views: 402
Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put. /

 

"The grand scheme of God is inscrutable; the object of life is virtue, not pleasure; and obedience, not liberty, is the means of its attainment." ~Russell Kirk


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 10:02am


Views: 381
This is really the nub...

and I think it boils down, once again, to the number of "layers" we see in Tolkien's work.

On the surface, we could say that LotR (and The Hobbit, etc.) represent all there is to know about Middle-earth - Tolkien wrote those stories set in his own, created Middle-earth, and we can take everything that happens in that world at face value as the "truth" (the whole truth, and nothing but the truth) about Middle-earth. In this scenario, Middle-earth is fully idealized.

At the next layer, we might add in thoughts such as those in the discussion squire linked to here. That is, that although Tolkien is still the "omniscient narrator", he might have chosen to treat some issues euphemistically or ambiguously, and perhaps he intends us to read between the lines. Now we could say that the 'idealized' story has a more realistic subtext that we may choose to see if we wish to.

But there may be another layer, one that Tolkien certainly pays lip-service to, even though not everyone is willing to take him seriously. This layer would arise from the idea that Tolkien saw his stories as separate from Middle-earth itself - that is, perhaps he intended to write something that would have the same relationship to his Middle-earth as Beowulf, say, has to its Middle-earth (i.e. to the real world as understood by the original author and audience of Beowulf).

Tolkien certainly mentions, over and over again, that the stories are stories, as seen through the eyes of those who experienced them - he shows Bilbo and Frodo writing the original texts from which the stories came, and he adds Appendices that mimic the kind of learned documents that scholars like to use to try to work out the real history that lies behind the stories they have.

In answer to questions in his Letters, he quite often speculates about the "history" of Middle-earth, basing his answers on the stories, as if he doesn't fully know that history either! And, at least in one interview, he stated quite clearly that Middle-earth is our world "at a different stage of imagination" - which to me evokes Owen Barfield, and his idea that ancient peoples saw the world - our own world - in ways that made it seem quite different from the way it seems to us.

It's with this third layer that we can separate the "idealized" stories from the more realistic glimpses of Middle-earth itself. We see very little of Middle-earth that doesn't fit the idealized pattern that the stories follow, and yet there are many small details that can only be explained (if we feel the need to explain) by invoking a more "realistic" world beneath the stories. Of course, there's no need to explain anything - you can receive the stories in the perfect state of childlike trust and wonder that makes them the most magical of all.

But few adults in our "fallen world" (as Tolkien liked to call it) are willing or able to attain this state - and so (I believe) Tolkien built his fairytales on the foundation of a Middle-earth whose realism and solidity, while barely glimpsed, is somehow felt. That's where I think the depth comes from, the depth that sets LotR in particular above most ordinary, unlayered fantasy. Tolkien's legends are rooted in a real, solid, recognizable, unidealized world. (And yet, to go back to the start of my argument, you don't need to examine those roots at all, if you don't want to (in fact Tolkien would probably prefer you not to). You can read the stories as straight fantasy, straight fairytale, and no harm done. And even as you do so, no doubt, those unseen roots are still anchoring the story.)

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 10:39am


Views: 409
I'm glad you agree the stories are idealized,

even if you imply that only a child, or an adult with a childlike sense of trust and wonder, would fail to penetrate that layer and find the realistic subtext.

Personally I think the sense of realism in Tolkien's Secondary World is based on layer upon layer of fiction, all of it idealized, but all of it giving LotR the sense of depth that we see in the Primary World, and rarely see in works of fiction. It is, once again, a feigned history -- beautifully feigned, but feigned in every layer.

Now it is true that Tolkien hoped we could see something of the Primary World in his fantasy, the far off gleam of evangelium, in which the realistic Primary World and the idealized Secondary World intersect. But that does not diminish his idealization in the Secondary World. Rather, Tolkien hopes that such ideals can, someday, be realized in the Primary World.

His fantasy, at least in The Hobbit and LotR, is a kind of affirmation -- this is the way the world could be, if we were all good, and united against evil. We, too, can hope for a sudden turn, and a Happy Ending. It might take a eucatastrophe to make it happen, but we can hope for divine intervention. He wants to lift this world up, at least in our hopes and dreams, and not drag his fantasy world down to our level.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 12:01pm


Views: 366
I think I see.

You see it as fantasy all the way down.


In Reply To

His fantasy, at least in The Hobbit and LotR, is a kind of affirmation -- this is the way the world could be, if we were all good, and united against evil. ... .It might take a eucatastrophe to make it happen, but we can hope for divine intervention.



I know many readers prefer the religious interpretation of the stories, and I certainly would never argue against that that interpretation. However, Tolkien was subtle enough to make even non-believers like me able to enter his world, and feel that affirmation. Even for people who don't see God as the explanation for the human yearning towards goodness, Tolkien's stories work. I think they do that by not ruling out the idea that there may be a non-magical explanation lying behind the stories, and by leaving us free to imagine that there's a natural world behind the magic.

On the other hand, all those ambiguities that we've seen over our discussions also allow readers who wish to, to believe completely in the magic. It's all good!


In Reply To
He wants to lift this world up, at least in our hopes and dreams, and not drag his fantasy world down to our level.



I agree that he wants to lift this world up, I just disagree that having a realistic foundation to the fantasy "drags it down". In my view, it supports it, and roots it firmly in the earth so that it can reach greater heights.

(I was about to answer your question elsewhere, about whether I "reject" your theory about extramarital sex in Middle-earth. I think this exchange perhaps answers that question: I don't reject your interpretation, I just don't think it's the only one possible. And in other interpretations, with a more realistic Middle-earth underneath the fantasy, there's room for extramarital sex. But I agree that it's possible to read LotR, and the rest of the legendarium, as straight fantasy.)


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 1:47pm


Views: 365
One last quibble.


Quote
Even for people who don't see God as the explanation for the human yearning towards goodness, Tolkien's stories work. I think they do that by not ruling out the idea that there may be a non-magical explanation lying behind the stories, and by leaving us free to imagine that there's a natural world behind the magic.


I don't think you can say that about the stories in The Silmarillion. You may see Iluvatar/Eru as part of Tolkien's fantasy, but he and the Valar are explicitly involved in the stories in The Silmarillion. If we view The Hobbit and LotR as a part of that same world, how then can we deny the existence of divinity in that world?

I agree, however, that The Hobbit and LotR, minus The Silmarillion, do not require readers to believe in divine intervention, even within the context of the fantasy. The Hobbit, as I recall, does not make any references to Higher Powers, although I'm not sure how Bilbo could have been so lucky without the involvement of some kind of Higher Power, even if we do not personify it and just call it Providence or Doom or Fate. LotR does make several ambiguous references to Higher Powers, including Gandalf's own conclusion that "Someone" wanted Bilbo to find the Ring. But the role of those Higher Powers may actually be more subtle than in The Hobbit, although I think there are hints throughout, especially if we keep track of the wind and weather. And of course there is Gandalf's return from death. Still, it is quite possible to read both stories without giving any consideration to Higher Powers, and indeed I think most people do exactly that.


Quote

I was about to answer your question elsewhere, about whether I "reject" your theory about extramarital sex in Middle-earth. I think this exchange perhaps answers that question: I don't reject your interpretation, I just don't think it's the only one possible.


On that we agree.



(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 8 2009, 1:48pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 2:43pm


Views: 384
To answer your quibble...

I read the Silmarillion as I read the Bible - as a repository of great wisdom and powerful imagery, but not as a source of literal truth. In other words, I read it as the mythology of the Elves, as understood (through a glass darkly) by Bilbo. It works for me; and Tolkien, I think, has given me "permission" to read it this way because he told us about Bilbo's 'Translations from the Elvish'. But, as I said about the rest of the legendarium, there's always more than one way to read Tolkien....

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 3:06pm


Views: 372
And the Akallabeth?

Is the Fall of Numenor mythology as well? And are you saying you do read The Hobbit and LotR as sources of "literal truth"? How so?

Yes, there is more than one way to read Tolkien, but your way strikes me as more work. I just read it all as fantasy, and none of it as history or "literal truth," except within the parameters of the fantasy. For me, that's easier.

There are some stories in the Bible that are similar. The Book of Job, for example, or the parables of Jesus, are just stories. No one, I think, believes them to be literally true.


(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 8 2009, 3:08pm)


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 3:42pm


Views: 359
Realism and Fantasy

I do not mention the shadows behind the story in order to drag it down or destroy the beauty. Rather, because so many have chosen not to see beyond the surface brilliance, many others condemn the stories as having no depth, being black and white cartoons, and I find this unfair. So I hasten to point out thatTolkien did put the depths there, fully rounded out. The characters really are complex. The triumph of good means something because it's not all that easy.

Rather than drag the story down, I see this as illustrating just how high it leaps, straight up from the same clay of which we are all made. I am not interested in the virtues of temptation-free angels, nor the victories of supermen born strong without exercise. Faramir's refusal of the Ring means more to me because I think he was tempted. Sam taking on Shelob means more because he is small. And that quote about Sam and the world of quests versus the world of eating and begetting and so forth, if you look closely at it Tolkien says that Sam is there to bridge the two--he's a good ol' boy who yearns to visit elves.

Tolkien is perhaps much too subtle for our more blatant world to fully appreciate. In his day polite people didn't directly talk about the gritty side of life, but they didn't ignore it, either. They found discreet ways to hint at its presence and acknowledge it as a factor in life, without paying it undue attention. I find his stories full of such polite, discreet acknowledgements without spelling anything out too graphically. (We all know, for instance, that when he says that the elves got "sleepy" over the wine that he really means "drunk".)

Sometimes censorship, and then working around it, has greater impact, because the unseen can loom more darkly than the seen. There is a scene in the movie, "Lawrence of Arabia", where Lawrence has to execute a man. You see the man kneeling on the ground, then you see Lawrence from a ground-level perspective, firing the gun. Then the gun moves, and fires again, with his face getting grimmer and grimmer. Then the gun moves yet a third time, and he fires again. Then he suddenly fires a whole bunch of times at once. You don't have to see the gore. You don't have to see the man actually writhing all over the ground, not dying cleanly with a single gunshot. If you did, your mind would retreat into speculating about the special effects. The horror is much greater because the camera angle forces you to speculate on it.

Similarly, you don't have to be told precisely what Morgoth intends to do with Luthien. You can imagine. Imagination makes it all the more horrible than if Tolkien showed you graphically what Morgoth can do with an elf maiden who falls into his clutches. If he told us, then the foul deed would have a boundary, a beginning and an end. But because he doesn't tell us, the mind says, "Maybe he'd do this...or this...or good heavens maybe even this!" and there is no boundary where the imagination can stop and say, "No more!"

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 3:50pm


Views: 351
There's always a way to explain

The Silmarillion is the Elvish Bible, and as such is going to cast everything in terms of divine intervention. Still, the atheists of Middle Earth can always say that a meteor hit Arda and completely rearranged it, the resultant tsunami submerged Beleriand, etc., and that subsequent generations invented a battle of the Valar to explain the catastrophe. They would also say that the exodus of technologically advanced elves from the west probably had some mundane explanation, but they wanted power over their more primitive brethren, so they claimed to have learned at the feet of the gods. And since they behaved rather badly, subsequent generations revised this myth by ascribing their arrival to rebellion against the Valar.

And so it goes. Where people don't want one explanation, they can always find another. Why should Middle Earth be any different?

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 3:57pm


Views: 368
Atheists in Atlantis

Just because it's fun to speculate on how an atheistic Gondorian might explain the Akallabeth...

Sauron was a terrific con artist. He turned the myth of Valinor on its ear, got everyone mad at a nonexistent land that supposedly created their island, and persuaded all of the warriors to sail off into a hurricane to be lost forever, leaving him with the spoils of Numenor. Unfortunately, he miscalculated. The storm was much greater than he expected, and engulfed the island, too, which no doubt was far smaller than the maps portrayed it to be, certainly without the alleged mountain-ranges or central peak, and whoever drew it perfectly star-shaped must have imposed imagination onto vaguely suggestive features.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 4:16pm


Views: 368
How about legend?


In Reply To
Is the Fall of Numenor mythology as well?



It reminds me of something like, say, the Song of Roland, which is historical in origin but has become a legend full of miracles and wonders. There's a real historical event that lies behind it, but fantastical details have been added over the centuries as it was passed down orally in song.


In Reply To

And are you saying you do read The Hobbit and LotR as sources of "literal truth"? How so?



No, I'm saying I don't read any of it as "literal truth". I don't imagine an "omniscient narrator", I imagine that the stories are being filtered through the eyes and ears (and beliefs and understanding) of the protagonists. And that they are then copied, edited, revised, translated and otherwise continue to evolve until they have become, at least in part, "legendary tales" themselves.

I think the characters of LotR probably believe in the literal truth of the Elvish "Bible stories", though - certainly they are inspired by them.


In Reply To

Yes, there is more than one way to read Tolkien, but your way strikes me as more work.



Sure is! I used to just read it as a nice, relaxing fantasy - I'd read LotR every year or so as my "vacation in Middle-earth", in between the more "mainstream" kinds of literature that I normally read. I never could understand why I kept wanting to come back to it, though, until I started looking beneath the surface to see what Tolkien might be doing that I found so appealing. That's when I started to see what "my way" of reading was - that way was always there in my subconscious, I think, but over the last few years, I've been gradually figuring out how it works for me. I should say that I don't feel the need to focus on any of this stuff when I'm actually reading - it's just there in the back of my mind, giving the story an extra context and that sense of ambiguity that I like so much.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 8 2009, 4:21pm


Views: 348
Appendices and Fantasy

It seems to me that it's the dry scholarly appendices which drag down the fantasy of the story itself. Which is usally what scholars do with any literary work.

Which is why I'm thinking Tolkien did it deliberately, at once to give his work more verisimilitude, and at the same time to poke fun at how scholarship can suck the wonder out of literature.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 5:26pm


Views: 354
I take a different approach.


Quote
I do not mention the shadows behind the story in order to drag it down or destroy the beauty. Rather, because so many have chosen not to see beyond the surface brilliance, many others condemn the stories as having no depth, being black and white cartoons, and I find this unfair.


To the extent critics object to Tolkien's idealized world, I see that as a feature, not a flaw. Tolkien did not deny that fairy-tales were escapist; instead, he fiercely defended escapism. Evil is mostly externalized in Tolkien's fantasies, and I like it that way. I don't see any reason to try to turn Tolkien's fantasy into something it isn't, something gritty and realistic and literary.


Quote
So I hasten to point out thatTolkien did put the depths there, fully rounded out. The characters really are complex. The triumph of good means something because it's not all that easy.


There are depths, but they are fictional depths, layer upon layer of fiction in a fictional world. The characters are complex to a point, but they usually stop short of the gray area favored by modern novelists, in which it is hard to tell heroes from villains. In Tolkien's fantasy, there is a bright line between the two. If "complex" means "morally ambiguous," then Tolkien's characters are not complex. The triumph of good is not easy -- indeed, The Hobbit and LotR are very much aberrations in the long decline of history found in The Silmarillion. But the ultimate triumph of good is certain, and Tolkien tells us outright that Bilbo will return alive from his adventure and that Frodo and his friends will successfully save the Shire and the world.


Quote

Rather than drag the story down, I see this as illustrating just how high it leaps, straight up from the same clay of which we are all made. I am not interested in the virtues of temptation-free angels, nor the victories of supermen born strong without exercise. Faramir's refusal of the Ring means more to me because I think he was tempted.


I don't think he was tempted. There is room to differ, but I base it on the text, not what I prefer to believe.


Quote
Sam taking on Shelob means more because he is small.

But virtuous -- and in Tolkien's fantasy, as opposed to the Primary World, that counts for more than strength or skill.


Quote
And that quote about Sam and the world of quests versus the world of eating and begetting and so forth, if you look closely at it Tolkien says that Sam is there to bridge the two--he's a good ol' boy who yearns to visit elves.


I don't remember the quote, but Sam is, I judge, an idealized servant, and not a realistic good ol' boy. Unless you choose to add things Tolkien did not write, assuming, again, that either Tolkien or Frodo or Sam or a fictional historian left out the details that would have made Sam a realistic servant.


Quote

Tolkien is perhaps much too subtle for our more blatant world to fully appreciate. In his day polite people didn't directly talk about the gritty side of life, but they didn't ignore it, either. They found discreet ways to hint at its presence and acknowledge it as a factor in life, without paying it undue attention. I find his stories full of such polite, discreet acknowledgements without spelling anything out too graphically. (We all know, for instance, that when he says that the elves got "sleepy" over the wine that he really means "drunk".)


I think your preferences lead you to look for discreet acknowledgements that are not there. In your version, there should be violent alcoholics in the Shire who become aggressive rather than sleepy, and beat their wives, even though Tolkien "discreetly" chose not to write about them at all.


Quote
Sometimes censorship, and then working around it, has greater impact, because the unseen can loom more darkly than the seen. There is a scene in the movie, "Lawrence of Arabia", where Lawrence has to execute a man. You see the man kneeling on the ground, then you see Lawrence from a ground-level perspective, firing the gun. Then the gun moves, and fires again, with his face getting grimmer and grimmer. Then the gun moves yet a third time, and he fires again. Then he suddenly fires a whole bunch of times at once. You don't have to see the gore. You don't have to see the man actually writhing all over the ground, not dying cleanly with a single gunshot. If you did, your mind would retreat into speculating about the special effects. The horror is much greater because the camera angle forces you to speculate on it.


At least we see Lawrence fire a gun. It's not much of a leap to guess what happened. I think you are making much larger leaps in your interpretation of Tolkien.


Quote
Similarly, you don't have to be told precisely what Morgoth intends to do with Luthien. You can imagine. Imagination makes it all the more horrible than if Tolkien showed you graphically what Morgoth can do with an elf maiden who falls into his clutches. If he told us, then the foul deed would have a boundary, a beginning and an end. But because he doesn't tell us, the mind says, "Maybe he'd do this...or this...or good heavens maybe even this!" and there is no boundary where the imagination can stop and say, "No more!"


Except that elsewhere fair damsels do fall into the clutches of foul villains, repeatedly -- and are forced to marry them and live in a monogamous relationship with them. That's the worst that we see, unless we count Shelob's mates. So we don't know what Morgoth imagines, but based on the textual evidence, marriage seems the most likely possibility. Unless of course we insist on judging Morgoth by Primary World standards, in which case rape seems the most likely, even though there is no record of a successful rape in Middle-earth.



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 5:31pm


Views: 346
But the elves are immortal.

Why should The Silmarillion be like the Bible when many of the characters in The Silmarillion are still alive and available to correct mistakes? I would say The Silmarillion is a history, not a religious work, and a history based upon first-hand accounts.


Quote

Still, the atheists of Middle Earth can always say that a meteor hit Arda and completely rearranged it, the resultant tsunami submerged Beleriand, etc., and that subsequent generations invented a battle of the Valar to explain the catastrophe.


But are you saying that? Or, when it comes to Middle-earth, is it possible that you are not an atheist within the context of Tolkien's sub-created world?



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 5:34pm


Views: 355
So, if you think Sauron was lying,

does that mean the Valar exist and were telling the truth? Do you doubt that the Higher Powers exist within the context of Tolkien's fantasy, despite Sauron's best efforts to persuade people otherwise? There certainly are nonbelievers on Numenor, but are you one of them? Or do you recognize that Sauron lied, and that the Valar and Eru exist within Tolkien's fantasy world?


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 5:41pm


Views: 350
Point of clarification.


Quote
I never could understand why I kept wanting to come back to it, though, until I started looking beneath the surface to see what Tolkien might be doing that I found so appealing.


Are you suggesting that your way of reading Tolkien, minus the omniscient narrator, is what Tolkien really had in mind, and that the rest of us are lazy readers who want "a nice, relaxing fantasy"? Or is this something you prefer to do for your own reasons, because that's the way you like to imagine Middle-earth, whether Tolkien imagined it that way or not? I'm willing to agree that Tolkien left room for different readings -- he loved ambiguity. But I don't like being called lazy.



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 6:01pm


Views: 338
I think I am miscast

Somehow I have become cast as a sort of leering pornographer in Middle Earth, hanging out in the dirtier alleys of Minas Tirith, whispering, "Hey, sailor--wanna buy a postcard?" Honestly, that's not me! I'm the sort of person that inspires people spontaneously to apologize for uttering cusswords in my presence, without me saying a word.

Yet I am also an honest person, and I recognize honesty. Tolkien was discreet, and I respect his discretion. That doesn't make him naive. He was honest. He shows people attaining their best, but I lay the emphasis on "attain". He very quietly acknowledged their imperfections, he just didn't go around trumpeting them.

If he wrote with the intention that you describe, I would hate his books! They would be out of reach. They would concern people not at all like us mere mortals, and therefore of no relevance to us. It would strike me sort of like the Albigensian heresy, which described Jesus as only appearing to take on flesh, because flesh is yucky, and we human beings have no hope whatsoever of ever achieving virtue except to die. No use even bothering to attempt the imitation of Christ.

If Tolkien's heroes are perfect, why bother to even try to emulate them? Why bother to cheer for their victories if they're just automatically guaranteed from the start? Where is the struggle in that that makes a story inspiring? And without inspiration, why bother remembering the books at all? They could never have changed my life the way they had. I would not have striven to be braver, more virtuous, more loyal, more merciful if those traits were just inborn Numenorean or hobbit or elf traits that have nothing to do with people who feel temptations or deal with the ordinary grit of life that you either have or don't, no use pursuing them if you're not born with them.

I read, perforce, plenty of didactic children's books that had perfect heroes and total villains, and I don't remember a single one of them, except that I was relieved when I reached the end and could now go in search of something better. If Tolkien's work had been yet another of that ilk, I would have recognized it. My mind would have spewed it out as indigestible, like all the rest. Instead it recognized something nourishing, something inspiring.

I think his characters are good by choice, and that the choice doesn't come easy, and it makes all the difference in the world.

I am a very Samlike person. I could have chosen to be Ted Sandyman instead, but I didn't. I could have chosen to be Gollum, but I didn't. I could have chosen to knuckle under to Gaffer-like forces and remain ignorant, but I didn't. I set my eyes on elves. I set my heart on loving my betters rather than just doing what I needed to to collect a wage from them. I set my will on serving a power higher than all of us to the best of my ability, even when it hurt and I saw no advantage to it. That is all the more meaningful because I could have taken the easy way out and refused to grow.

And I did it because Tolkien inspired me. He didn't put it all beyond my reach.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 6:06pm


Views: 327
Nope, not me.


In Reply To
Why should The Silmarillion be like the Bible when many of the characters in The Silmarillion are still alive and available to correct mistakes? I would say The Silmarillion is a history, not a religious work, and a history based upon first-hand accounts.


Quote

Still, the atheists of Middle Earth can always say that a meteor hit Arda and completely rearranged it, the resultant tsunami submerged Beleriand, etc., and that subsequent generations invented a battle of the Valar to explain the catastrophe.


But are you saying that? Or, when it comes to Middle-earth, is it possible that you are not an atheist within the context of Tolkien's sub-created world?



When I suspend disbelief in Tolkien's world, I suspend it all the way. I would not be an atheist in Tolkien's world. But I can understand their point of view, based on the points of view available in the primary world.

There are plenty of people who witness miracles in this day and age, who may be consulted on the same. That doesn't mean that they are. That doesn't make them credible in everybody's eyes.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 6:37pm


Views: 321
So you know it when you see it?


Quote
If he wrote with the intention that you describe, I would hate his books!


I'm not quite sure I understand what intention you think I have described. What you attribute to me doesn't sound familiar.

I think Tolkien works with a genre that is often associated with bad writing, but in his hands it became good writing, without significantly changing the genre. He didn't make it good writing by turning his back on escapism and idealizations and fantasy and romance, he steeped himself in all of those conventions, including the ancient literature in which they originated, and then turned the genre of heroic romance into something which is not at all like literary, psychological novels, but which is well written, nonetheless. He took conventions that in modern times had all too often been relegated to "didactic children's books that had perfect heroes and total villains," and made them plausible by giving both his heroes and his villains depth, and explaining how his villains crossed the line into evil, without getting rid of the bright line between good and evil.



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 6:41pm


Views: 319
But in the Silmarillion, the atheists

are wrong. Tolkien may allow us to sympathize with them, but in The Silmarillion he never questions the existence of Higher Powers. At most, he questions whether the Valar always act wisely. But not Eru.

In this sense, The Silmarillion is not like the Bible, but more like Wikipedia -- not always reliable, perhaps, but doing the best that it can to get the facts straight.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 6:45pm


Views: 343
Now you're putting...

words in my mouth...

I didn't say lazy, I said "relaxing". I think I should have said "escapist", because that's what I meant - I could escape into a vivid, compelling world that let me relax and not have to analyze it, or worry about what it "meant".


In Reply To

Are you suggesting that your way of reading Tolkien, minus the omniscient narrator, is what Tolkien really had in mind



Actually, no. I think he intended for his stories to be read the way you read them.


In Reply To

Or is this something you prefer to do for your own reasons, because that's the way you like to imagine Middle-earth, whether Tolkien imagined it that way or not?



I think many people sense that there's more to Middle-earth than meets the eye, even if they don't notice it consciously. I suspect (though I certainly can't prove) that Tolkien did imagine his stories through his characters (and in fact put clues into the text, in the form of showing the story being written by his characters, and so on), but that doesn't mean he necessarily wanted his readers to consciously notice what he was doing. I think he would have been much more satisfied by your response than by mine. In fact, he'd probably say I'd "left the path of wisdom", like Saruman. But I can't help it - I like to know how things work, even if I have to risk breaking them to find out. But I haven't "broken" LotR for myself so far - I love it all the more for its complexity.


In Reply To

But I don't like being called lazy.



Well, it was your word, not mine! But I'll apologize for the misleading word "relaxing", if you like.

Evil


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 6:54pm


Views: 318
But the elves

are also far above mere mortals in understanding. Perhaps they remember their history through metaphor and poetry and song, not in dry facts and dates. Mere mortals can't grasp it fully - I think Aragorn makes it clear that even he can't tell Elven stories aright. And the Elves laugh (kindly, of course) at Bilbo's attempts to tell their stories. That's why Bilbo is such an important link in the provenance of the Silmarillion. It's only because he "translated" it that we can understand it at all. But there's no way his version is a true version of the original.


In Reply To
Or, when it comes to Middle-earth, is it possible that you are not an atheist within the context of Tolkien's sub-created world?



No, I'm not an atheist in Middle-earth. In Middle-earth I have faith. But the only way I can have faith is if I don't know that Eru and the Valar exist. There must be a possibility that everything that happens has another, perfectly natural explanation. That way, I must believe, and in Middle-earth, along with the characters, I do.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Curious
Half-elven


Jun 8 2009, 7:34pm


Views: 338
No, I was just asking.

I wasn't sure what you meant.


Quote

I suspect (though I certainly can't prove) that Tolkien did imagine his stories through his characters (and in fact put clues into the text, in the form of showing the story being written by his characters, and so on),


Fair enough. I'm not sure that the evidence you cite supports the wide-ranging conclusions you reach, but then I suppose you are not claiming it does, only that it hints at it a bit. Personally, I don't think the hints go that far, but we can, I hope, agree to leave that conclusion to personal taste.



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 10:43pm


Views: 313
What are we talking about, exactly?

Of course there is a bright line between good and evil! That doesn't mean that people are either all one or the other, and Tolkien's characters certainly aren't pure good or pure evil. For one thing, all hobbits, without exception, are gluttons! I think that you really have to stretch it to argue that they are flawless, but that doesn't make them bad.

I would instead assert that the fact that they achieve great good shines all the brighter because they aren't perfect. Why, Frodo puts right in his elegy for Gandalf that he was "swift to anger" (which is a sin, stated up front and frankly) precisely for the contrast to his great virtues, that Gandalf achieved his greatness by transcending his own limitations. If it wasn't important in the overall view of Gandalf, Frodo would have left it out.

They certainly aren't messed-up antiheroes, and I never said that they were. The good guys don't cross a certain line, same as is usual in this world. They are good, but good people abound; they resemble us enough that we can hope to emulate them.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 8 2009, 10:57pm


Views: 336
And how does that differ from the Bible, exactly?

You say, "In the Silmarillion, the atheists are wrong". And in the Bible, in the same sense, atheists are also wrong--it says so fairly often. If you stay within the world of the Bible.

Now, while I happen to believe that, I can still respect the intelligence and integrity of those who don't take the Bible literally. And while plenty of folks in Middle Earth believe the Silmarillion with their whole hearts, there will certainly be some others who say it ain't necessarily so. Sauron found plenty of men in Numenor, closer to the action than most, whom he could convince that it was all a pack of lies. (Not the best example of intelligence and integrity, granted, but who knows what excellent people they were before Sauron got to work on them?)

At the later date of The Lord of the Rings, it would become even more implausible. True, eye witnesses like Elrond and Galadriel still exist, yet how many mortals have ever met them or even verified their existence? And if they did meet them, how could they know for sure that they spoke the truth? Especially Galadriel, who doesn't exactly have the best reputation where her name is known at all.

I am saying that it is plausible for good, honest people in Hobbiton or Edoras or Dale to doubt the literal truth of some very lovely legends.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 9 2009, 1:42pm


Views: 307
Idealized characters are not necessarily flawless.

But Tolkien himself metaphorically marks the difference between the Third Age, when Evil was mostly a vast conspiracy by outside agencies controlled by Sauron (I said mostly -- there are exceptions like Saruman), and the present, when we all may have inherited both Elvish and Orcish blood, and are capable of Elvish and Orcish behavior, and should not point to any one country or set of countries as the source of all Evil. We see that even more in his letters, where he speaks of the Orcish element in the British army, and concludes that the hobbits wouldn't stand a chance in the modern world, and that all sides would compete to use the Ring.

I find it quite remarkable, by the way, that he did so when it may have been tempting to see Hitler and the Germans as monsters, and the English as incapable of such evil. Tolkien was keenly aware of the distinction between fantasy and the Primary World, and strongly objected to attempts to draw parallels between the War of the Rings and World War II.

Middle-earth is not like the Primary World. It is idealized, which doesn't mean it is ideal. Tolkien did not consider World War I or II to be "Good Wars." The War of the Ring, however, was a Good War -- although in the end Frodo regrets even that violence. As such, the War of the Ring stands in sharp contrast to what are called "Good Wars" in the Primary World.

Yes, we can hope to emulate Tolkien's idealized characters. But Tolkien sets the standard high, and even if most people have good hearts, Tolkien is pessimistic about the world in general. The one thing that keeps him going is his religious faith. He knew that many people did not share that faith, so he transformed it into a story that communicates what he considered the spirit of his religion without all the trappings that turn people off. He was, I think, by nature pessimistic, but he had found a source of hope, and he wanted to give others, including many who did not and would not share his religious beliefs, a similar source of hope.


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 9 2009, 1:45pm


Views: 301
But it is not plausible for Tolkien's readers

to doubt the literal truth, within the context of Tolkien's fantasies, of some very lovely legends.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 9 2009, 6:12pm


Views: 305
Closer to agreement

I'm close to agreement with you there. I think that only the forces of evil are capable of such crimes as rape in the third age or before (and Curufin's obviously threatening pursuit of Aredhil shows just how far his vow has corrupted him) although good folk could still be capable of consensual indiscretions. The stories only mention failed rapes--yet the very attempt implies the possibility. Otherwise Aredhil wouldn't have galloped like crazy away from Curufin. And in order to believe in the possibility, someone had to have heard of the real thing happening.

The difference, as I see it, is whether a sin could be well-meaningly stupid, or outright malicious. Gluttony, drunkenness, building dwarves, etc., are all well-meaningly stupid acts, and since we know that good guys are capable of such things without undue influence from maliciously corrupting agencies, such as the Ring's temptations or Wormtongue's spells, I think that we can safely extrapolate other well-meaningly stupid acts, such as a torrid romp between a Fallowhide master and Harfoot servant that winds up with an unforeseen (though certainly not unforseeable) consequence.

Deliberate acts of malice, on the other hand, seem to be the direct province of the bad guys. Either they are the only ones who do it, or the only good guys who do it have to fall under some corrupting influence.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 9 2009, 6:16pm


Views: 298
Experience says otherwise

I have unlimited faith in the human capacity to doubt. It seems eminently plausible to me that not everybody in the third age believes everything in the Silmarillion.

Granted, your mileage may vary.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


sador
Half-elven

Jun 9 2009, 6:20pm


Views: 319
You meant Luthien, didn't you?

Aredhel galloped to Curufin.
Actually, that incident proves Curious' theory more than anything else - it is said specifically that the sons of Feanor planned to keep her, for Celegorm to ask her hand in marriage.

"In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time." - Smaug


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 9 2009, 6:30pm


Views: 294
Doesn't prove it


In Reply To
Aredhel galloped to Curufin.
Actually, that incident proves Curious' theory more than anything else - it is said specifically that the sons of Feanor planned to keep her, for Celegorm to ask her hand in marriage.



Sorry about mixing up the names. I knew I should have looked it up.

If Celegorm is correct in refusing to acknowledge the validity of Aredhel's marriage to Eol, then Aredhil had a son out of wedlock. If Celegorm is incorrect, then he's pursuing a married lady with lustful intent. Tolkien did not recognize divorce, only separation. Therefore no matter how you look at this, it's wonky.

Most telling of all, Aredhel did not want to marry Celegorm. No means no! So Celegorm, unequivocally, has crossed the line.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Jun 9 2009, 6:31pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 9 2009, 9:25pm


Views: 295
I'm going out on a limb when I theorize

that extramarital sex is impossible in Middle-earth. I recognize that. I don't think I am going out on a limb when I theorize that Middle-earth is an idealized version of the Primary World -- not ideal or utopic, but idealized, with the world divided more sharply between good and evil.

Tolkien lived in the days of "fallen women" who were never forgiven for a torrid romp ending in pregnancy, including his mother-in-law, and children who for some reason were blamed for it as well, including his wife. Perhaps in his idealized world women did not suffer such a fate.


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 9 2009, 9:29pm


Views: 295
But is it plausible that any reader

refuses to suspend disbelief and considers the Silmarillion not a merely work of fiction but a fictional pack of lies? Are there readers out there who love Tolkien, but are convinced that Morgoth is good and the Valar evil or non-existent? Sure there are characters within the story that hold such beliefs, including all of Sauron's followers. But can readers enjoy Tolkien while holding the beliefs of, say, Gollum?


GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Jun 9 2009, 11:26pm


Views: 287
It is possible, although there’s no way to know for sure.

Maybe a Morgoth fan will reveal themselves here. (If so I'll give them a wide berth ;o) )

I do know that I personally have read some writers with viewpoints diametrically opposed to mine. While they may paint a character as white I find myself shaking my head with the knowledge that I cannot find them so. In fact, I’m in the midst of such a novel right now which is why I jumped in here. If I can do this when reading other writers there’s no reason someone out there, maybe someone with a grudge toward Tolkien’s Catholic sympathies, might not react similarly.

~~~~~~~~

The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.



sador
Half-elven

Jun 10 2009, 5:51am


Views: 289
D'oh! I missed the most important part!

The story of Celegorm and Curufin planning to marry someone was Luthien, when she came to Nargothrond looking for help.
And they were hoping that in time, Thingol would consent to her marrying Celegorm.
So there was no intemtion of rape - unless you consider pre-arranged marriages without asking the woman's consent as rape. That might be true, but wasn't seen so in all cultures.

They wouldn't marry Aredhel not only because she was married already (although see Curufin's words to Eol, recognising the marriage but disowning the kinship) - just like Maeglin couldn't marry Idril.

Sorry for not making this clear enough.

"In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time." - Smaug


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 11 2009, 12:08am


Views: 292
An entire subculture

There's a whole subculture within fandom of people who write orc POV fanfic, listen to fantasy-metal rock that extolls the glory of Sauron's forces, decorate their rooms in Mordor Goth, give themselves online monickers in the Black Tongue, and/or tattoo themselves with dragons, balrogs, and other nefarious creatures.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 11 2009, 12:11am


Views: 286
Maeglin

What, precisely, was Maeglin's intent towards Idril?

(And I think we both need a refresher course in the Silmarillion--I'm so looking forward to that!)

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 11 2009, 5:18am


Views: 274
Yes, but they don't think the narrator is lying

about Sauron, they like Sauron because he is evil.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Jun 11 2009, 3:52pm


Views: 261
Some have said...

...that the stories would be very different had the narrator told it from the viewpoint of the other side.

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!


Curious
Half-elven


Jun 11 2009, 3:56pm


Views: 479
We can speculate, of course. We

can even write fan fiction from that perspective. But I find it very hard to read the story this narrator wrote while imagining that he is lying to us.