The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Prayers etc needed for 'The Hobbit' movie



mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 19 2007, 4:58am


Views: 5816
Prayers etc needed for 'The Hobbit' movie

Dear TORnsibs,
I know a number of you feel, like me, quite distressed by the blocked situation regarding the making of the film many of us had earlier started awaiting so eagerly and joyfully: 'The Hobbit', envisaged by the then obvious would be director, Peter Jackson, as one film, plus another one bridging over to the existing LOTR films.
For my part, I have from the beginning signed a (polite) petition, sent one or two (polite) email messages to New Line, but after that have found myself painfully unable since long months to do anything else that might help unblock the situation.
This is a sick situation, no doubt about that.
So, seeing the other day on the 'Off Topic' board a request for prayers, good wishes etc regarding someone's health, I suddenly felt this was just what was needed also to help 'The Hobbit' situation heal as quickly as possible, and in the best possible way.
This is why I now come to all of you who might want to help in that endeavour: could we, each one at our own time and place, but united in spirit, pray daily, or send our thoughts, or whatever, for the best possible solution regarding 'The Hobbit' movie?
The power of our collective thoughts and of the love in our hearts is waiting to be used also for such purposes that at least for a good number of us are dear.
If some of the actors too, or anyone (including Bob Shaye) who has been part in some way of the magnificent success that the LOTR films have been, happen to see this, let them feel free to join as well, for this is an invitation for all people of good will.
Blaming and accusing may have played their role too, in clarifying for all to see the responsibilities involved, but in the end only thoughts of harmony can help bring about the reconciliation needed, and the solution that both parties will be able to feel happy to agree on, for the ultimate benefit of all of us!...
I hope many of you will be moved to participate in this.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Rivendweller
Lorien


Apr 19 2007, 1:49pm


Views: 3187
I will join you

The immense power that is our thoughts can accomplish great things. If Peter et.al. were to focus their total concentration, for just minutes a day, upon the outcome of their version/interpretation of The Hobbit, it would come to pass.

Therefore, I agree with your view of the collective consiousness focusing together in making this a reality. Heart


Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back....
Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.


diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2007, 3:07pm


Views: 3263
I think there are a lot more important things in this world...

... that need praying over and the making of the Hobbit is not one of the them, IMO.

If you want something to pray for, how about those poor people at Virginia Tech and their families? Or the poor people dying all over the world due to famine, disease and war? Or those who are in depths of desperation and need help coming out of the darkness? Or for peace and understanding among people of different beliefs, cultures and lifestyles?

As much as I like Peter Jackson, praying for two parties who have tons of money in the bank and who aren't exactly thinking about the welfare of any particular Tolkien fan (an ill one notwithstanding) seems a bit inappropriate (for lack of a better word) to me.

But if it makes you feel better, then by all means, go for it. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it will happen, but my prayers are reserved for those who really need it.



'esquey
The Shire


Apr 19 2007, 3:17pm


Views: 3238
Dear God,

We earnestly pray that you please unblock the situation involving "The Hobbit" and make it possible for that film to be made so that your attention can go back to helping those who really are in need of your guidance and mercy, like the family members of those killed in the VTech shootings or in Iraq yesterday.

Amen.

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19 2007, 3:19pm


Views: 3224
Huh?

Why diedye, you're being profound. And I agree 100%

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 19 2007, 3:38pm


Views: 3191
I guess one can feel blessed

...if this is the thing that needs most attention in their life through focused thought and prayer. There are just other things higher on my priority list that need and deserve my attention and focused energy.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 19 2007, 3:45pm


Views: 3123
Thank you. //

 

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Join us every Thursday in the Movie Discussion Forum for GOLD Nuggets, an exploration of the Geeky Observation Lists maintained by our very own grammaboodawg.



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 19 2007, 5:11pm


Views: 3234
Well,

while the Hobbit movie isn't very high on my priority list, the responses to this post are disturbing me. They have the flavor of "My prayers are sooo much more important than yours." I dunno. I talk to God about all sorts of things, from horrors I read about in the newspapers to little irritations with my family. What harm is there in bringing all our concerns to God, no matter how tiny? It's not like she's too small to listen to them all. At least that's what I think. In my prayer conversations, one thing I've come away with is that scale doesn't matter. The fact that the universe is huge doesn't negate the importance of one human life, or one animal life for that matter. If I'm weeping over a dead hamster, God is with me. And I don't think that moment is improper, no matter how many more important things there may be to weep over.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Morwen
Rohan


Apr 19 2007, 5:39pm


Views: 3206
I confess

To sending up prayers such as this:

Dear God
Please speed my paycheck to the bank, that it may get there before the mortgage payment does.

And God always takes care of me.

I'll certainly pray for the victims/survivors of all the tragedies and perils in the world, but I suppose I could spare a brief prayer for The Hobbit.

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I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 19 2007, 5:51pm


Views: 3155
Mea culpa.

I believe that anyone should be able to pray for whatever is important to them. I bring many prayers to God; large and small. I'm not saying people shouldn't pray for the Hobbit. I don't, however, believe that it's on par with health or life and death issues. I think that at this particular time it may not be as well received because of the VT massacre and Iraq and Afghanistan, too.

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Join us every Thursday in the Movie Discussion Forum for GOLD Nuggets, an exploration of the Geeky Observation Lists maintained by our very own grammaboodawg.



Morwen
Rohan


Apr 19 2007, 6:14pm


Views: 3179
Agree absolutely

Neither The Hobbit nor my little prayers are on a par with life and death issues, and I am absolutely not suggesting we ignore these things. Sadly, however, tragedy is always with us.

One of the reasons that this thread got my mind to working: Today is the anniversary of the 1995 bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, a senseless act which cost 168 lives. (The mother of my veterinarian lost her life in that tragedy.) Twelve years after the fact, I took a moment this morning to think about those victims.

So, twelve years ago we had Oklahoma City and this week we had Virginia Tech. Sadly, we have had plenty of tragic events in between as well. All we can do is go on with our daily lives, and that includes prayers for simple needs and everyday comforts, while still remembering and honoring those who need our thoughts and prayers most of all.

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I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 19 2007, 6:23pm


Views: 3093
Well said. //

 

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Join us every Thursday in the Movie Discussion Forum for GOLD Nuggets, an exploration of the Geeky Observation Lists maintained by our very own grammaboodawg.



diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2007, 6:23pm


Views: 3205
Nobody died...

Oh for pete's sake (no pun intended)! A movie hasn't been made yet by a person of interest... that's hardly equal to someone being ill or dead or having a life problem... or even saying thanks for the life you've got. Talking to God is one thing... asking for another Peter Jackson blockbuster is hardly worthy of a prayer vigil.

You want the movie to be made? Nag the parties involved or boycott or whatever. I think God has bigger fish to fry.



diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2007, 6:57pm


Views: 3155
Aye...

But do you ask for a collective prayer over your bank statement?



diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2007, 7:04pm


Views: 3172
Clarification...

In case y'all are thinking I'm dumping on mae govannen, I'm not. The fact that she wears her faith on her sleeve like that should be commendable.

But as I said off-site, it's bad enough that people who actually have faith and believe in something and do pray get ridiculed and shot down... requests to pray for something frivolous seems to diminish its importance. (And yes, I too am guilty of privately asking for things that are hardly life-changing... I just don't do it publicly or ask for a prayer group to work on it).

Having said that, if you, mae govannen, feel that I've slighted you somehow, then I apologize. My intention was not to hurt you... just to add a little perspective.



Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 19 2007, 7:06pm


Views: 3152
I didn't articulate it well, but that's where I'm coming from.

I absolutely believe that anyone should pray for whatever is important to them, but you raise things to another level when you bring it to the www.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Join us every Thursday in the Movie Discussion Forum for GOLD Nuggets, an exploration of the Geeky Observation Lists maintained by our very own grammaboodawg.



Morwen
Rohan


Apr 19 2007, 7:17pm


Views: 3144
Well, that solution never occurred to me.

But if it's the idea of a collective prayer as opposed to individual prayers that's bothering you, I suppose I can see your point. I think you're saying that setting up a prayer thread for The Hobbit trivializes prayer threads for life and death matters such as the horrific tragedy at Virginia Tech, and that's a valid argument, although I certainly don't think that was mae govannen's intention.

I suppose we can't really set up prayer vigils entreating that our bank statements balance and our cars start in the morning, although many of us pray for these things, or thank God when they do happen, all the time, and those prayers are valid too.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19 2007, 7:34pm


Views: 3169
Well

I’m feeling like back in high school, where a lot of the guys were wanting to have a team prayer for us to win a football game. But that just didn’t seem right to some of us. So Coach came up with a prayer where we prayed that we played with honor, that that we played to our best ability, that we honored God in the way we played, and that we played injury free, God’s will be done.

I'd think something like that would be more appropriate, but maybe it's just me.

Also, who we going to pray to?

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 19 2007, 7:39pm)


diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 19 2007, 7:58pm


Views: 3124
Good question...

... since different people believe in different things.

How about we just send out some really good bribes... I mean... vibes.

Tongue



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 19 2007, 8:06pm


Views: 3136
We can be hamburgers.

We can just sit around being "one with everything".

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 19 2007, 8:24pm


Views: 3155
Thank you

for your beautifully-written post. Tomorrow is also the eighth anniversary of the Columbine shootings. Here's the poem I wrote at the time:

Blue and Silver

Winter comes late in Colorado.
After a long, dry winter, in April it snowed and snowed,
A spring snow, heavy and wet as tears.
I went to the store to buy ribbons:
Blue and silver ribbons to pin like a flower above my heart.
I found purple ribbons, green and yellow, red and gold.
But on every rack, a gaping hole where the blue should be,
And empty spools that once held silver.
I knew where the silver and the blue ribbons were:
Despite the falling snow, all over Colorado,
Silver and blue columbines
Were blooming on every heart.

April 25, 1999

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Morwen
Rohan


Apr 19 2007, 8:31pm


Views: 3102
Thank you, Aunt Dora

That's a lovely poem.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 3:18am


Views: 3085
Thank you for your answer so straight and simple :-) /

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Noneoftheabove
Lorien


Apr 20 2007, 3:38am


Views: 3111
You said what I didn't want to say...

Thanks diedye,

mae govannen means well, and I'd love to see the Hobbit movie made.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 5:13am


Views: 3187
How do you know I'm not praying also for those things?...

It so happens that my whole life since 34 years is a kind of permanent, living prayer for all those things: this is exactly why in 1972, instead of remaining a young teacher in France, I decided to join the developing 'universal township' of Auroville here in South India.
It is a very officially recognised international project, supported by UNESCO, where people from all over the world come, to visit or to stay, in order to learn how we humans can live together in a better way. Actually, it is a living laboratory for the further evolution of humankind, for only a change of consciousness in the human species as a whole can heal the deep causes of all the horrible things that keep happening around the world.
So, as you see, I am dealing with all those things you mention, not just through prayer, but at the deepest and most complete possible level of personal involvement: it's in fact what my whole life is about.
Also, for me Tolkien was another person who deeply felt and thought about exactly all these kinds of problems linked with the present nature of human beings, and tried in his own way to help; the very reason why I love him so much, not just as a writer, but as a person as well, is that he addressed all these problems in his writings, without even wanting to: just because all this was so much in his consciousness all the time, it couldn't but overspill, so to say, in what he was writing.
As far as stories are concerned, I believe LOTR and The Hobbit to be amongst those that can influence humanity the most in the right direction, this is why I'm immensely grateful to JRRT first of all for having written those books, and now also to PJ for having brought LOTR to the screen in a way that enthused and opened to the book so many millions of people.
We are here on TORn, a site dedicated to Tolkien; and this is the Movie Discussion board; I really don't see in which way it is inappropriate and scandalous to put up such an invitation as the specific one I put, on this specific board of that specific site.
Quite obviously, the timing has been a big part of the problem, and I had no idea about that until I saw some of the answers here: for many of you who live in the USA, there was that tremendous shock of the horrible news from Virginia, so I can fully understand how ridiculously disproportionate the concern I was voicing in this post must have seemed to you in that part of the world. I'm really sorry for that, and I understand the indignation it may have caused you to feel.
But in the part of the world where I live, the news from Virginia didn't even make it into the 'important news from the world', and I just didn't know about it myself, so I hope you will forgive me for that involuntary insensitiveness.

Still, even now that I am aware of the state of mind you must have been in out there, what I see that is in common to all the horrible events, small or big, everywhere, any time, is their deep root cause: and again, for me Tolkien and the inner beauty he expressed and called for, and the 'estel' he advocated and lived with himself in spite of all, are an important part of the inner remedies that Humanity badly needs in order to evolve further and rid itself at last of all those horrors.
So, what I invited everyone to pray for, in whichever way they would choose, was not at all, as you believe, two specific egoes locked in a battle over more money than they already have; it was on the contrary to pray for the melting away in them of those very feelings and inner attitudes, which are the UNIVERSAL problem behind all the problems Humanity is facing.
If in those two human beings in this specific problem, something can be helped to happen that will lead to a harmonious solution, it will help inevitably all other human beings in their own inner struggles with feelings and inner attitudes that, if not exactly the same, originate nevertheless from the very same root-cause.
So, in my eyes, my invitation still has the same universal validity and urgency as it had for me when I posted it, and I still hope, now that this clarification on my part has been added to it, that a number of us will feel moved to join in it.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 5:21am


Views: 1569
Thank you for saying at least also

that I mean well; I do appreciate that.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 5:48am


Views: 1551
... and to all the other human beings who suffer horribly too

but without being ever even mentioned in the news anywhere...
For me, dear Esquey, the whole human condition is what needs to be prayed for, and also what God is giving his/her attention to all the time - including the inner flaws in those two specific humans who are called Bob Shaye and Peter Jackson, and the specific good, potentially useful things that are prevented from happening for the world because of this specific case of human stupidity and greed.
I took that as the one sample of it all that we, here on this TORn Movie Discussion board, could try particularly to address in that specific context, that's all. It doesn't mean of course it's the only thing on my mind or that I am praying for.
But actually it's all the same, you know...
God is trying through all that to make us feel the need of evolving further, of developing that higher and truer consciousness, which alone will solve all of those problems, the big ones as well as the small ones, for they all spring from the very same root-cause; the present state of consciousness of humankind.Unsure

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 6:06am


Views: 1560
It doesn't have to be either or, you know...

Also, not knowing at all the circumstances in my own life, perhaps you should not assume that only if I am among the blessed (?) ones who don't have any great problems personally, would I post an invitation to prayer for this specific need.
It so happens that I see behind this apparently insignificant case what needs to be prayed for always and in all cases: human nature in the distressing condition that it is in everywhere until now, and will remain in as long as we human beings don't do all we can to evolve further, by activating the spiritual part in us that is waiting to be brought fully into our lives, so as to bring about our true potential as a species...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 6:44am


Views: 1575
Thank you for this warm-hearted comment! If

that is a sample of the 'reams of good advice' that you can send, please do go on sending, and I hope other people may listen!...
Joke apart, I'm really glad someone here is expressing with her own simple but moving words a way of relating to God, to prayer and to all in life that we may weep over, that I can relate to fully myself!
It is the way of the heart Heart, the one I love so much to find also in Tolkien...
... Which is precisely why it seems relatively important to me for the world to have a film like 'The Hobbit' being given to it, just as already the LOTR films have been given to it: if more people would see this kind of films, less would be so lost and desperate in life as to massacre other people, on top of taking their own life too...Unsure

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


DownfallenWest
The Shire


Apr 20 2007, 6:51am


Views: 1688
My indoctrination into atheism...sorry...Atheism

lies so many years in the dim past behind me now, that I can't remember who it was that said something which has stuck with me ever since: "Two hands working accomplish more than 1000 clasped in prayer." How many hands does it take to start a petition? Eh, bad example, I suppose.

What would Samwise do?


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 7:15am


Views: 1569
Luckily for us, God may take care of ALL the fish,

big and small (not to fry them, though!!! Laugh), and may very well consider that everything is one whole big problem to be healed, in which every apparently small victory counts as much as all the apparently big ones, for everything helps everything else... just as Tolkien's heroes understand so well, and this is what finally enables the final Victory to happen in their part of the Story.
Now we are in yet another age of Arda, but the root of all our problems is still exactly the same: only there is now no material 'Ring' to destroy, but the Ego that emprisons and slowly poisons our being.
Of THAT universal problem to be solved, Bob Shaye and Peter Jackson are as good examples as anybody else, and the way their stupid dispute blocks something potentially useful for the world from happening, is one problem that is directly relevant as a topic to our TORn Movie Discussion board, when many other problems that have been mentioned by other posts are not.
So, as Aunt Dora Baggins pointed out very wisely, God may very well listen; and I would add that in the all-seeing, all-loving eyes of God, such a specific prayer, specifically on our part here, would be seen as at least perfectly appropriate, for sure.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 8:05am


Views: 1571
Well, that's just the spirit of what I'm talking about too!!!

If you go back to my original post up there and read it a little more carefully, you will see that what I was inviting all of us to pray for was NOT the victory of this fellow or that fellow, this camp or that camp, but on the contrary the victory of all on their own egoes, so that at last a harmonious solution could be found that all would agree upon - and THAT would be God's will indeed!...
I don't care at all actually what that solution might be in the end, the only thing that really matters for me is that harmony comes back, for only in harmony can another good film (or a better one even than the LOTR films) be produced, bringing more good Tolkien stuff to the public - ourselves included - and having good results again in many of us... which is why that possible film does matter much for me.
But you were perhaps influenced unfavorably in reading my proposal, by the impression you probably still have in you, that I have attacked and vilified you badly in another post of mine, back there in that long thread about 'The Pity of Bilbo'.
There too, if you take the trouble to have another look now, you will see that, as I explained immediately in two answers to you in two different places, my unusual (for you) way of speaking and my akward attempt at joking (you are so good at it, I was trying to follow you on that, stupid me!...) only gave you that impression, when it was not at all the case.
Communication can be so difficult and full of traps between people who don't know each other well - and additionally in this case, don't even speak the same mother tongue - I was doing my best, but apparently used an expression which for me is not an insult at all, but for you was, and so you ended up feeling I must be a troll or something.
So now here you are interpreting what I said the wrong way again, I'm sorry to say, although this time I don't think it's my fault: if one read really what I had written in my proposal, there was no way it could be so entirely misunderstood as apparently you did.
I guess we'll have to keep trying to understand each other, and get better at that every time. But please, now if you can, go back to that other thread and read what I answered you in those two places, it might already help. I hope, at least!...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

(This post was edited by mae govannen on Apr 20 2007, 8:07am)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 8:54am


Views: 1578
LOL!... I appreciate the joke, although

it's based on a total misreading of my proposal as I've actually written it and wish you had understood it.
It's certainly not just another blockbuster that I invited us to pray for, and I think I made that pretty clear.
Whatever you may like to imagine my own beliefs are, still I imagine yours to be actually not so different from mine: you probably believe it's one rule of the game here to do one's best to understand what people may write in their posts? I certainly believe the same thing, so I would expect you next time to make an effort to do just that, instead of making fun of what you haven't taken first the trouble to read properly. Tongue

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

(This post was edited by mae govannen on Apr 20 2007, 8:55am)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 9:20am


Views: 1585
Sorry, didn't get your point:

so many people here seem each to be trying to write the funniest post about how bad my proposal is, it's getting a bit difficult for me to follow; my own wits are this time dazed and perplexed by what you have written, to the point that I am not even sure whether you are for or against my proposal... Crazy
Would you please make your point a bit clearer, whatever it is?... Smile

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 9:35am


Views: 1552
To all: please read my first answer to diedye,

that is, 'How do you know I'm not also praying for those things?
This subject line could have been better formulated, but the contents of the post itself, I do hope, clarify everything that many of you have reacted against when first seeing my proposal - which then you may see again, with different eyes.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Meliana
The Shire

Apr 20 2007, 12:52pm


Views: 1623
Well it would be half the number...

A fellow atheist! Of course I commit the the worse crime of all and admit I don't really care whether The Hobbit is made or not. Or is that one step too far? (Sorry, Mae govannen - I'm not trying to get at you. :-))


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 1:23pm


Views: 1581
Having read that beautiful poem of yours

made me feel I was
one of you overthere,
far away in miles counting
but so close
in the poignancy of our pain.
Thank you for that.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 1:48pm


Views: 1630
Well, mae...

...which coincidentally is my middle name,

the fact is although I wouldn't mind seeing PJ make the Hobbit I am, in fact, annoyed at this somewhat constant incitement for us to DO SOMETHING. This feels the same to me as all the telemarketers that call... all the solicitors who ring my doorbell... They all have noble worthy causes and they're all a bit chagrined that I don't find their cause worthy enough to give money to... but I don't decide how to direct my attention and energy by who bangs on my door the longest and loudest. On a continuum, I'm probably more on the intolerant and grouchy end than most people about this.

And, to be perfectly honest, *I* am dismayed that this issue is getting so much attention. We all have things we'd love to see happen in our life But I just can't imagine ... and I mean that literally... living in a world where this amount of focus would be given over to getting a movie made under specific parameters. I know nothing about you other than this is the only issue you want to talk about and you are constantly asking US to do something. The only positive spin - and I was looking for positive because this was the alternative - was to think that your life was blessed enough so that you could give your attention to it. It's not that my life isn't blessed that I don't give attention to it... I am blessed. I'm just not blessed with an empty slate of things to act on. My attention is focused on many items: some personal, some family, some community, some environmental, some social activism, some involving world peace. I don't know what your slate looks like. Mine's full. I could make the same requests for help in any of these items (and I actually did for a personal item in another venue). But mostly I just own the list I've created or been given and I do what I must or what I choose without petitioning for help.

next, my faith is other than Christian and I'm don't do the prayer thing. I'm immersed in a Christian society so I accept that I tread amongst you who do pray. And when someone asks for prayers for personal reasons, what I take that to mean is that they want us to keep them in their thoughts (and I realize they may also want the prayers but would be happy for my warm thoughts). I am happy to do that. But my faith does not petition for what we want. I can easily give personal support, encouragement and warm wishes within the context of my faith. I can hope that people could learn to get along together and stop killing each other. But I feel a whole lot less comfortable petitioning a higher power for a specific act to happen. To do so would presume that we know what is best and that ITEM A would result in the perfect solution. Are you absolutely convinced that PJ wants to make the Hobbit with NL? Are you absolutely convinced that he doesn't privately hope that this falls off the board so he can make it with a different studio? Are you absolutely convinced that this is the right time for him to make it and he doesn't have reasons - private, family, business - for hoping it gets postponed a little? This feels wrong to me. It feels a little like a mother-in-law praying for grandbabies with no regard to what her son and daughter want. It feels too much like, "Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz. I just can't be happy with out my Mercedes Benz." Perhaps it feels so wrong to me because I'm not Christian. But it feels uncomfortably wrong within my paradigm of spiritual faith. And it feels uncomfortably wrong because you keep wanting us/me to help you and I feel harassed.

I am prepared to accept that it is my issues that make this feel wrong and harassing. If it feels right to you and to others on this board, then you must have your say. I will do my best to just stay away. In fact, the one thing I will own is that I'm probably neglecting something on my slate to even fuss this much over this item. Best I just go attend to them.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 1:59pm


Views: 1648
You said very well something I had been thinking.

[reply]
As far as stories are concerned, I believe LOTR and The Hobbit to be amongst those that can influence humanity the most in the right direction[/reply]

Words can be very powerful agents of change, for good or ill, and there's a lot in LotR that is very important: words about hope in the face of darkness, about doing our duty even we don't have hope. I'm not sure I see The Hobbit in quite the same light, but I didn't think your idea was improper. I certainly don't think it deserved getting jumped on the way it did.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 20 2007, 2:08pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 2:20pm


Views: 1547
Well

I am prepared to accept that it is my issues that make this feel wrong

Actually my wife feels the same way. Her religion says it is *very* wrong to pray to affect someone else's life without their express permission. Like praying that someone changes their belief in God, or sexual orientation, or whatever. I agree with that too.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 20 2007, 2:25pm)


Rivendweller
Lorien


Apr 20 2007, 2:37pm


Views: 1511
You are entirely welcome. :-)

I recognized your intention and did not interpret it as being insensitive. I, among many others have shed countless tears this week each and every time I see photos of those young ones whose lives were snatched away so ruthlessly. I also recognize the need for humanity to come together in this time of violence and seek a better solution.

In this time of great sorrow in the U.S. and indeed the world over for the senseless murders at V-Tech, and the copy-cat sickos that are emerging from under their rocks...it would indeed be refreshing to have something to look forward to.


Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back....
Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 2:40pm


Views: 1508
I remember

in the horrible days after 9/11 how looking forward to FotR gave me something to help lift the anguish a little.


In Reply To
In this time of great sorrow in the U.S. and indeed the world over for the senseless murders at V-Tech, and the copy-cat sickos that are emerging from under their rocks...it would indeed be refreshing to have something to look forward to.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 2:46pm


Views: 1538
On the other hand, i do pray for blessings

on people like Fred Phelps, and leave it to God to sort out what that might mean.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 20 2007, 3:07pm


Views: 1538
What is that old addage about assuming?...

I did read your post. And I wasn't making fun of you. I never make fun of other people's faith.



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 3:11pm


Views: 1521
Well...

...I've had personal contact with some of his pinheaded goons who were despicably protesting at the military funeral of the only son of a dear friend. So I don't feel very charitable towards him and his thugs.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 3:39pm


Views: 1526
'I know nothing about you other than

this is the only issue you want to talk about and you are constantly asking US to do something. '
What you're saying here is total astonishment for me, Magpie. What may have given you such an impression I have no idea, but it is simply not true.
I think I have participated in about all the various threads on all the new discussion boards since the end of March when I was able to join in those new boards, and I even checked systematically on all that had happened before that; as for the few discussions since then where I have only lurked on, it wasn't because I wasn't interested, but because I didn't feel competent: for those specific threads one had to be competent and knowledgeable enough, and I was not.
As for 'The Hobbit' movie, far from speaking all the time about it, I have kept on the contrary rather quiet about it until now, never mentioning it but for answering someone else's mention of it; so if you did get this feeling of harassment on this topic, it is certainly not by me!!!
Only just in these last few days I happened to read two interviews that reported the feelings of two more actors about it, and I knew some people here would be interested in reading those interviews, so I mentioned them myself in a post - without making any particular fuss about it.
This proposal of mine is actually the very first time I am inviting other people to do something about it - not because it's the only thing I think about all the time (oh my! what a strange idea!...) but because it seems to me we could do something about it now in a different way, in a different spirit, and that might be worth trying - only for those who feel concerned by that situation, obviously; the others don't need to pay any more attention to that post of mine than to any other they don't feel concerned about; that's just the normal thing on TORn discussion boards, isn't it?
So perhaps those feelings of harassment have built up in you over quite some time from seeing that topic coming up a bit too often for your taste, but to accuse me now of being the cause of that feeling is a totally baseless accusation - objectively speaking, that is.
By the way, you believe also that I am a Christian, when I am not, and have stated already in several posts that I am not; even in the proposal you incriminate, I spoke of prayers because that's what most other people relate to best, but I added good thoughts and something else I don't remember now; what I am sure of is that I emphasized the 'power of our thoughts and of the love in our hearts' , certainly not 'prayers' as such.
'I can hope that people could learn to get along together and stop killing each other.'
At least one thing we can agree on!!!
'But I feel a whole lot less comfortable petitioning a higher power for a specific act to happen. To do so would presume that we know what is best and that ITEM A would result in the perfect solution.'
Well, I didn't think I had been that specific either???
All the things you mention - rightly - after that, I am indeed not sure of at all, that is exactly why I had left it all rather open - or so I thought, but now seeing it through your eyes I see that it wasn't yet open enough, or my words didn't convey enough the necessity of keeping it open, although it was what I felt too, just like you.
I can only regret then that you didn't say these things - kindly - before, so that the intention behind what I was proposing could find a wider, truer formulation, to which you and probably some other people could have agreed.
Well, I hope this will at least dispel once and for all those wrong notions you had about me.
One thing that is a passion for me just as for you is the music for LOTR that Howard Shore has been inspired enough to compose. But I can never participate in the threads you propose about that, simply because I am not able to: so I do lurk and learn what I can from what other people say...
One of the reasons, though, why I would like PJ to do 'The Hobbit' (with or without NL) is in fact that I really long to have more of Howard's Shore's wonderful Middle-earth music to listen to... *sigh*

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 3:48pm


Views: 1472
That's what I meant too with that proposal... /

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 4:07pm


Views: 1587
I've had personal contact too:

Anti-Fred Phelps rally

Report from the battle front

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 4:08pm


Views: 1515
I don't know much about English adages,

my culture is French instead.
As for the rest of what you're saying now, you'll have to elaborate a bit on those few cryptic words, for what you say is hardly believable as it is, and sounds actually as the very contrary of what you are saying!!! Wink

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 4:12pm


Views: 1554
*bow of respect*

Good for you!

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 4:16pm


Views: 1411
P.S.: And as for my proposal,

why don't you just read it AGAIN, then, as you didn't get it yet, while some other persons got it perfectly well...!
You may not agree with it, that is another thing; but at least you should get the meaning and intention of it right, that would be a minimum.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 20 2007, 4:26pm


Views: 1412
Thank you for those nice, encouraging words.

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 20 2007, 6:09pm


Views: 1416
For real?

If this thread accomplishes nothing more than bringing atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians out of the closet, it will have been worthwhile.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 6:25pm


Views: 1408
That's a biiiig closet!//


In Reply To
atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians .


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 20 2007, 9:01pm


Views: 1407
Yes, it is,

even if one limits it to atheists. As Richard Dawkins notes, "There are many people who know, in their heart of hearts, that they are atheists, but dare not admit it to their families or even, in some cases, to themselves....The status of atheists in America today is on a par with that of homosexuals fifty years ago."


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 9:07pm


Views: 1373
I'm reminded of my father

who likes to say "Theology is the study of the empty set."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 9:11pm


Views: 1475
I just thouht it was funny that you were categorizing

Jews, Muslims, pagans, Baha'is, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, etc. with atheists and agnostics. I'm not a Christian, but I do consider myself a theist, though that makes me a bit of an oddball in my Unitarian church.


Maybe it's definitions that are at issue here. Here's my definition of God:

God

Do you think God’s sitting on a throne somewhere,
A throne of clouds up in the big blue sky?
While all about him choirs of archangels and angels sing,
And all his people bowing down, down, down, down.
Do you think he’s smiting unbelievers there,
With storm and lightning from his throne in the sky?
Is he weighing souls in the balance there to save a few,
While those who fail go tumbling down, down, down, down, down?

That’s not God at all.
Not a king on a throne in the sky.
God is blowing through your own sweet life.
God is love, God is light,
God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God blowing like the wind one day,
Blowing through the rainbow flags against the sky.
A sweet communion as the people shared the bread of hope,
With banners saying “God is love, love, love, love, love.”
You saw God shining in your lover’s face,
Beaming out through his sweet tender eyes.
And in the faces of your family and all your friends,
Their eyes were saying “God is love, love, love, love love.”

That’s what God is like.
Not a king on a throne in the sky.
God is blowing through your own sweet life.
God is love, God is light,
God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God shining on a mountaintop:
Cathedral alpenglow against the sky.
And all about you on the emerald slopes and plains below,
The crystal air was filled with light, light, light, light, light.
You saw God shining on the sea one night.
The moon was polishing the dark golden sky.
A sparkling moonpath lay across the wave, and far away
The broad horizon filled with light, light, light, light, light.


That’s what God is like.
Not a king on a throne in the sky.
God is shining through your own sweet life.
God is love, God is light,
God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God shining in a theorem once,
A sweet connection that was new to your eye.
Familiar patterns in a setting that was fresh and new,
It made your heart sing “God is truth, truth, truth, truth.”
You saw God dying on a fence one day.
Your outrage screamed to the cold autumn sky.
You couldn’t rest until you’d told the tale to all the world,
Your heart was weeping, “God is truth, truth, truth, truth.”

That’s what God is like.
Not a king on a throne in the sky.
God is speaking through your own sweet life.
God is love, God is light,
God is truth, God is joy.

You saw God dancing in a circle once,
Beneath the stars in a sweet summer sky.
Folk from all the world were holding hands and singing songs,
Their dancing feet said, “God is joy, joy, joy, joy, joy.”
You saw God shining in an angel’s face,
A loving angel in your own mind’s eye.
The Lady taught you how to wear her face and do her work,
And hear her voice say, “I am joy, joy, joy, joy, joy.”

That’s what God is like.
Not a king on a throne in the sky.
God is singing through your own sweet life.
God is love, God is light,
God is truth, God is joy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 20 2007, 9:15pm)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 21 2007, 1:56am


Views: 1464
I'm speechless

that a group like Phelps's exists with so much hate.

Good on you Aunt Dora for your quiet, persistent and love-filled response to it.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2007, 2:41am


Views: 1394
I knew what you meant...

That's a nice definition -- one that even a non-theist might embrace.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 21 2007, 4:32am


Views: 1373
Hear, hear, non-theists!... :-)

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 21 2007, 4:36am


Views: 1382
LOL!... Great saying!!! :-D

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 21 2007, 5:29am


Views: 1400
*hugging Aunt Dora in a close embrace*

You have just given me the greatest joy I've ever had on these TORn boards, Aunt Dora Baggins, and I have had many over the few years I have been around. Tears kept coming up and flowing out while I was reading your delightful poem/song.
If only more people would come out of the old, dire definition, and join into the Love, Light, Truth and Joy that can't possibly be defined, but which you have described and evoked through your very words, so simply and so beautifully...
As Aerin points out rightly, even the atheists could agree with what you describe.
And yet to embrace and be embraced by That keeps for each of us also the very same utter Sweetness that has been known from time immemorial by those everywhere who went beyond the definitions and clasped the Reality of That, which can be felt as wonderfully personal as impersonal to our experience... Heart
If people knew what Bliss is there, waiting to be discovered and enjoyed at any moment of our lives!...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 21 2007, 6:13am


Views: 1414
blinks a few times.


Quote
If this thread accomplishes nothing more than bringing atheists, agnostics, and other non-Christians out of the closet, it will have been worthwhile.



What does that mean? Assuming one was in a closet (as opposed to just keeping personal business personal until such time as one might wish to share), what is accomplished by bringing one out?

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2007, 6:57am


Views: 1426
It takes a lot of nerve

to acknowledge being an atheist in the U.S. (the most "religious" of developed nations); people risk alienating friends, family, and business associates simply by doing so (even if they are respectful of others' faith and engage in no discussions or arguments on the matter). No one who aspires to public office can admit to being an atheist, or even an agnostic -- it's pretty much political suicide. If more people who have no religious beliefs were willing to say so, it might in time become more socially acceptable, but it's hard to do when one knows how shocked many of one's friends and relatives will be. Christians, in contrast, seem to feel quite free to publicly identify themselves, with no fear of opprobrium; their religion hardly even seems to qualify as "personal business," in the sense of something to be generally kept to oneself.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 21 2007, 9:24am


Views: 1455
My eyes have been opened a bit recently

by just how different America is becoming from other Western countries. Here's another example.

It takes a lot of nerve to acknowlege being an atheist in the U.S.


I've never felt any embarrassment about my lack of religious belief, and I've never felt any pressure from anyone about it. Some of my family are still devout Catholics (which is the faith I was raised in), but we all respect each other's beliefs, and so do friends and colleagues if religion comes up (which it rarely does). I know a lot of people who are like me, without any faith in organised religion, but open to the deep truths that lie behind them all.

When I read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion recently, I was taken by surprise by the idea of a proselytizing atheist - it seems so strange, to feel that you have to actually speak out to defend a lack of faith, or to try to "spread the word" for atheism! Most atheists/agnostics I know simply accept that for many people faith is a way of giving meaning and structure to what is after all a rather frightening world. Why not use whatever works for you to give your own life meaning?

That's why I chose not to take part in this thread (until now!) - if others find strength and comfort in their beliefs, who am I to try to discourage them? It's not a case of being afraid to speak up, but just of wanting to give everyone the space to believe whatever works for them, in a non-judgemental way. And one of the things I like about TORn is precisely the normally non-judgemental tone of discussions, so different from what you often see on message boards. This thread has been something of an aberration, and one I hope we can move on from, so that we can get back to discussing what we're really here for.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Stapper
Lorien


Apr 21 2007, 9:38am


Views: 1371
*applauds*

That Fred Phelps sounds like a regular creep to me.

Why do people say and/or do bad things in the name of their respective God(s)? What makes them think they know what that highe source wants, and that they are acting as that God wants them to? It scares me.

Belinda's law: The chance a computer crashes is proportional to the importance of the document you're working on

FOTR:50 links / Samwise's cookbook / TORn birthday calendar / 'Things you never (want to) hear people say' list


Stapper
Lorien


Apr 21 2007, 9:59am


Views: 1393
I didn't know

I knew the U.S. is a religious nation, but never for a moment suspected that being an atheist could close so many doors an dlock one out of society and jobs like that. Shocked

Alas, it's just another instance of the U.S. disappointing me. I won't say my home country's perfect (far from it!), but the way things are now, I wouldn't trade it for the U.S.

Belinda's law: The chance a computer crashes is proportional to the importance of the document you're working on

FOTR:50 links / Samwise's cookbook / TORn birthday calendar / 'Things you never (want to) hear people say' list


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 21 2007, 2:03pm


Views: 1412
Thanks for clarifying

You comments about atheism applies to those whose faith is other than Judeo-Christian especially when it's strays widely from those major faiths. I will say that I am of a faith other than Christian because if I place a name on it, people start making broad assumptions... one of which is usually that I without faith. I have a deep spiritual life and it is physically painful when that feels disregarded or disrespected. I will admit that I am experiencing difficult circumstances. I will admit that the shootings in Virginia (and continued madness of all sorts in my own town) have made life edgier. And I will admit that I have felt quite uncomfortable with this thread in the confines of my own faith. It was a difficult day for me yesterday.

When I read your post, I just wasn't sure what your thinking was but it could be interpreted in various ways and I felt a strong need to know your intent instead of reacting in my head to a perceived or assumed intent. Your clarification has confirmed that you weren't looking to out the pagans, et. al., in a witch hunt sort of way.

Although I have many people who accept me for what I am, I have also been the recipient of some pretty hurtful comments in regards to how I structure my spiritual beliefs. I try to dwell in my own space and not react to much to things that make me uncomfortable. When one walks in a Christian society where Christianity is considered the default way of ordering life, being 'uncomfortable' can happen fairly often. This week, my resources were depleted and I reacted. Although it was not my intent to cause discord on these boards, I also don't feel I did anymore than speak my truth frankly. My only other option would be to shut up or stay away. Since the frank truth is I'm still a bit upset by this, it's probably best I pick up a few of those things on my list and refocus my energies elsewhere.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 21 2007, 5:19pm


Views: 1451
Thanks, FFH, Stapper, and Magpie.

Pardon me for combining my responses.

Concerning the U.S. as a "religious nation," it strikes me as highly ironic that a nation founded heavily on the notion of religious freedom is so oppressive to those who depart from mainstream beliefs. The (false) assumption that the U.S. was founded as a "Christian" nation is everywhere and inescapable, from the national to the local level. Even in my community's "civic" choral society (that used to be our name), our director speaks to the group in terms that imply that we all hold to some faith, and at our annual dinner, he says a corporate grace (he used to mention Jesus until he was reminded that we have Jewish members).

Most of my immigrant ancestors arrived in Colonial times. They include members of groups that came specifically because of persecution for their religious beliefs -- in particular, Quakers and Puritans. One of my German immigrant ancestors was the grandson of a woman who was beheaded as a witch. I do count myself fortunate that I don't have to fear having my goods confiscated or being imprisoned or executed for my unbelief, but I find it ironic that the countries my ancestors left are now more hospitable to unbelievers than the "land of freedom" to which they fled.

Magpie, I'm sorry that my original post wasn't clearer; as a professional writer, I strive to be clear above all, and this is a clear case where my discomfort with raising the subject got the best of me. In fact, I think my response was prompted by the same reaction you had to the thread. In my case, I did not wish to get involved in the debate about the appropriateness of calling for prayer (though I very much appreciated your long post on the topic), but I put my two cents in because I was encouraged to see people speaking out about not believing in the efficacy of prayer, whether or not it was appropriate.

Far From Home: I am currently reading "The God Delusion" myself, mainly for the reassurance that I'm not alone in how I think, and I think that is the book's main value. However, I think "proselytizing" for any faith or lack thereof is inappropriate. I don't feel the need to try to destroy the faith of others; I just wish they did not feel the need for everyone else to believe as they do.

A couple of personal incidents: When I was in college, my Lutheran roommate and I discussed religion, and I apparently was so persuasive that (quite without meaning to) I caused her to lose her faith. (I was relieved to hear, a few years later, that she had gotten it back.) Since then, I have tried to avoid being drawn into such discussions, but people can be very insistent about wanting to know "what I believe." I have learned the hard way that it is almost impossible to tell a person of faith that one is an atheist without having that person take offense and commence arguing for the existence of God and the value of religion. It seems there are no terms neutral or objective enough; the mere fact of being an atheist is enough to give offense in and of itself. I have to wonder why believers seem to feel so threatened by the idea that not everyone believes.

On a lighter note: I went to a church-affiliated college (for the acadmics) and was required to take three religion courses in order to graduate. I did enjoy them and get a lot out them, but I was utterly amazed when one professor wrote a note on my term paper suggesting that I consider majoring in religion!!!

On an even lighter note: When I was dealing with my mother's estate and trying to arrange for the sale of her (dilapidated and heavily mortgaged) house, some antiques dealers came by to see if there was anything of interest. As I walked one dealer out to her car, we were talking about the local real-estate market and whether the house would fetch even as much as the balance on the mortgage. She stopped in the driveway, looked heavenward, and began to pray loudly that I would be able to sell the house for a particular dollar amount! I burst into laughter before realizing that she was quite serious!


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 21 2007, 6:25pm


Views: 1395
Thanks for your kind words.

As I get older I worry less about what I "believe" and more about what I love, and how I behave. I personify God as a woman and talk to her, but I know that's only a symbol I've made up to relate to an abstraction. However, I get a lot of comfort from her. That song I quoted came from a kind of intense vision or dream I had as I was falling asleep and praying, and the words are hers.

Our minister told a story recently about a group of Jewish kids who were asked "How many of you believe in God?" Only a handful raised their hands. But when they were asked "How many of you love God?" they all raised their hands.

There are one or two people in our church who are what I call "fundamentalist atheists", people who act just like fundamentalists from any other religion, who buttonhole people and argue with them. I suspect that they do that more in our church than in the "real world" because it's a safe place, and it's a relief to be able to say at last what's been bottled up inside for a long time. But fundamentalists of any stripe make me uncomfortable.

So I really appreciate the thought you put in before posting, and the sensitivity of your writing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Apr 21 2007, 6:27pm)


DownfallenWest
The Shire


Apr 22 2007, 8:22am


Views: 1382
Sorry!

I meant nothing personal toward you. I was trying to be witty and sarcastic, and a bit ambiguous. I didn't realize that English isn't your mother tongue; sarcasm and ambiguity are the most difficult things for me to understand when reading in my new second language (Deutsch, sorry, not Fränzösich), so I can appreciate your point. Thanks for the polite request for clarification.

My opinion is that praying for something brings nothing in comparison to actually working toward something. In "petition--bad example", I was trying to make a pun (lame, admittedly) on the idea that my own advice in this case is a bad example, as the pairs of hands working by writing petitions has yielded nothing to date.

What would Samwise do?


DownfallenWest
The Shire


Apr 22 2007, 8:35am


Views: 1393
Depends.

W.r.t. being an atheist, sure. I think I've gone on about this here in the past--though probably not in Movie. I think I knew that you were a non-theist, actually, or at least assumed you were by virtue of things you've opined on/about in the past.

W.r.t. indoctrination--that's of course a pun on the typical mindset of so many Xtians in the US--that liberals, atheists, humanists, whoever, are *indoctrinated* into a system of beliefs.

As far as fundy atheism goes, I used to always say I was an evangelist rather than a fundy. Of course those who disagreed with me claimed I was a blind fundamentalist. Ah well, I suppose I acted like it, at least.

The religiosity of the TORn community (at least in the last couple of years or so, despite the occasional claim that the religious are all but persecuted here) does make it feel a bit like coming out of the closet.

(Posted hurriedly, as I won't be around for a day or two and wanted to reply before this thread dries up.)

What would Samwise do?


DownfallenWest
The Shire


Apr 22 2007, 9:03am


Views: 1405
Rambling on in general.....

Doesn't this more properly belong in Off Topic?Tongue

Fundy athests in your church?!? Something don't add up there! Wink

I used to be quite adamant in pointing out the logical and even moral superiority of atheism over theistic morality when my then-new world view was newer to me. I was never personally religious, and over time became more secure in my understanding that the world, universe, and especially humanity are best and most easily explained and understood without trying to reckon in a creator/judge/god/hierarchy of supernatural beings. I am as comfortably certain that the various gods of the various religions I've heard about don't or even can't exist, as I am that the sun will "come up" tomorrow, that invisible pink unicorns aren't rummaging around in my attic for carrots, or that little elves aren't pushing the electrons around inside this here computer at which I now sit.

I've written letters to the editor of local newspapers--mostly in response to nonsense written by other readers mis-portraying evolutionary science or whatnot. I even once wrote that maybe the US would be better off with an atheist president, what with Clinton's faults not having been helped by his deep religiosity. (Said "liberal" paper--The Oregonian--edited (without attribution, the ninnies!) my letter to turn it into more of a critique of Clinton than I intended, FWIW.)

Just to ramble on a bit, back in college, when I was first really trying to figure out what I do and don't believe, a discussion with my Catholic scientist dad led him to say "just get over this agnostic stage." Yeah, right, but not in the direction he'd hoped! We'd been discussing whether it made more sense to assume the universe required a creator to have come into existence, or whether the existence of such a creator begged the question of whence *he* came. He stunned me by using the false argument of the origin of life here on the closed system of the earth going against entropy. Stunning because he's a freakin' theoretical nuclear physicist! (Of course the earth is not a closed system, what with that big fireball in the sky providing energy from outside and all.)

Some time later, my dad's second wife suggested that it doesn't matter what religion one has, as long as they have one, because those miserable atheists "believe in nothing". She didn't know much about my personal religious persuasion, but assumed I was a struggling Catholic like my parents. And before anyone jumps to conclusions, my parents' Catholicism has little to do with my religion-free status--none of this, "ah, THAT's why he's a non-believer, his parents' religion turned him off," business please. (Not that I think anyone in this thread would think or say such a thing, but I've encountered this attitude before.)

Mom once said she worried that she didn't do enough to make me religious instead of an atheist. I believe I reassured her enough that she should be glad to have raised me to be able to determine for myself what I believe and what world view fits me best.

I suppose I should try to remember and dust off my old argument for the superiority of moral atheism just for the fun of it.

Wish I had more time to post more thoughtfully on this...gotta go bike off through the woods to a Biergarten for some lunch.

What would Samwise do?


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 22 2007, 5:42pm


Views: 1371
Thank you for this nice and very helpful answer! :-)

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 22 2007, 7:51pm


Views: 1367
My mother had the same concern...

She was deeply religious, even though she stopped attending church when I was still a kid, and never showed it much. But in the last decade of her life, she became quite concerned that she would not see a couple of her six kids (me and my youngest brother) in heaven, and she seemed to blame herself for not having made religion a more central part of our family life. She believed that my other brothers were Christians, though not all of them were, simply because they never openly questioned or disagreed with anything she said on the subject. She kept trying to proselytize my youngest brother, but she told him she'd given up on me.

She also let us kids believe that her stepfather was her biological father (and our grandfather), because her parents wanted us to believe it, and she had promised them to keep this secret. She believed that her parents were looking down on her from heaven and would know if she broke the promise. She obviously regretted having made the promise, and did not try to prevent me from discovering the truth from an old family bible after her mother died. When I confronted her with the truth, she said she would tell my brothers herself, but she never did, because of that ill-considered promise. However, did she let one of my brothers see the information I had copied out of the bible (with no explanation); he phoned me with all sorts of questions! What I really regret is never having had the chance to meet her biological father, though he lived until I was 20. (I did meet my mother's half-sister, who was able to tell me a little family history.)


Radhruin
Rohan


Apr 23 2007, 8:07am


Views: 2436
Interesting


Quote
The religiosity of the TORn community (at least in the last couple of years or so, despite the occasional claim that the religious are all but persecuted here) does make it feel a bit like coming out of the closet.



I would venture to guess that the claim that "the religious are all but persecuted here" is exactly that. Occasional. I'm amazed at the range of beliefs here. I'd be interested to know if someone can direct me to a message board that has a central theme (like Tolkien's works here), that has a wider expanse of beliefs. One that is as civil (most times) as this board. I would be very surprised to find one.



"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
~Chesterton


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 23 2007, 12:59pm


Views: 2434
Yep.


In Reply To
that a group like Phelps's exists with so much hate.


A few days after they came to my town, his daughter wrote a letter to the Rocky Mountain News saying that "God hates with a perfect hate." I wrote a reply, which was also printed, saying that if they're worshipping something that hates with a perfect hate, that's not God they're worshipping.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 23 2007, 1:11pm


Views: 2485
Replies on several fronts

Yep, this probably does belong in Off Topic. It makes me chuckle to see what a deep discussion has erupted here.

My church is not a Christian church, and atheists do feel comfortable there. It's us theists who sometimes feel a little out of place. Once they were redoing the bylaws or something and the legal phrase "acts of God" came up regarding roof repairs, only it came out "acts of the G-word".

Regarding people's worry about atheists being amoral: my father is an atheist, and he is the most upright moral person you could ever hope to meet. I can't imagine him ever telling a lie, or stealing, etc. He thinks it's immoral to tape a record and give a copy to a friend, for example. He's been faithful to my mom for over fifty years, and now that she's pretty crippled with Parkinsons, he is her primary caretaker. The ladies in my church call him an angel.

He's also probably the only Republican in my church. He's pretty conservative in almost everything, except his theology and his support of gay rights.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 23 2007, 1:18pm


Views: 2415
It is amazing.


In Reply To
I'm amazed at the range of beliefs here. I'd be interested to know if someone can direct me to a message board that has a central theme (like Tolkien's works here), that has a wider expanse of beliefs. One that is as civil (most times) as this board. I would be very surprised to find one.


The diversity and civility of this board is the main reason I love it so much. Not only diversity of religion, but of age, political beliefs, nationality, etc. Of course I don't know, but I'd venture to guess that TORn is unique.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 23 2007, 1:59pm


Views: 2432
Hah!

We'd been discussing whether it made more sense to assume the universe required a creator to have come into existence, or whether the existence of such a creator begged the question of whence *he* came.

“Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?”
-Sister Miriam Godwinson, "But for the Grace of God"


Some time later, my dad's second wife suggested that it doesn't matter what religion one has, as long as they have one, because those miserable atheists "believe in nothing". …Mom once said she worried that she didn't do enough to make me religious instead of an atheist. I believe I reassured her enough that she should be glad to have raised me to be able to determine for myself what I believe and what world view fits me best.

Some of the most moral people I’ve ever met were atheists. I guess it’s because unlike most religious people their morality is based as a self-imposed reasoned choice rather than an exteriorly imposed system of stick (Heck) and carrot (Heaven). I also tend to think it’s because if they do a bad thing they have to answer to their own conscience. They have to forgive themselves, unlike a lot of my fellow Christians who every time they do the same bad things every weekend go “Well, God forgives me so why can’t you?” As my preacher Reverend Ed says, “Sure, Jesus paid for your sins, but that doesn’t mean you can go crazy and run up the bill.”

And before anyone jumps to conclusions, my parents' Catholicism has little to do with my religion-free status--none of this, "ah, THAT's why he's a non-believer, his parents' religion turned him off," business please. (Not that I think anyone in this thread would think or say such a thing, but I've encountered this attitude before.)

Well, that's pretty typical. If people can't think of anything against your argument they start talking about you. Like when I'm in a religious discussion a lot of people will out of the blue pop off that I must be a lapsed Baptist. I always reply, "Acutally I'm a practicing Baptist, and I'm going to keep on practicing until I get it right!"

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 23 2007, 2:19pm


Views: 2429
Dunno.

Wifey is a Pagan. She says it's not Christians who put Pagans in the closet, but other Pagans. I wonder if that's the same with Atheists? I know a lot of times the antics of my fellow Baptists make me want to hide in the closet.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2007, 3:28am


Views: 2419
That's a great point!

There are no indulgences for atheists.

I think one of the arguments for religion that irks me the most is that without it, there is no morality, when in fact morality transcends all religions and depends on none of them.

What's especially ironic to me is that so many "practicing" Christians don't follow all of the teachings of Jesus, anyway, but pick and choose according to convenience (for example, how many really accept what he had to say about wealth?).


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2007, 3:37am


Views: 2428
I think it's both.

For years, the public face of atheism was Madelyn Murray O'Hair, which would be enough to keep anyone in the closet. That's another reason I'm glad to see people like Richard Dawkins and E. O. Wilson weigh in on religion; being associated with them would be rather less embarassing.

But the attitudes of Christian friends and family members and the attendant fear of ruining relationships is for me an even greater inducement to keep quiet.


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2007, 3:39am


Views: 2430
I think it says a lot

about the true universality of Tolkien's mythology.


Radhruin
Rohan


Apr 24 2007, 4:42pm


Views: 2427
I think you're right (nt)

 

"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
~Chesterton


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2007, 11:22pm


Views: 2383
Hey, I like your footer quotation! /

 


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 27 2007, 2:16pm


Views: 2448
Have been and will continue to :)

This is wonderful. I'm still sending post cards AT LEAST once every-other week and have been very prayerful and positive thoughtful about this. Since the beginning, I have had much anxiety about it... but just as strongly I feel Peter Jackson will be filming The Hobbit and its sequel. It's quiet now... and that's not a bad thing.

I truly believe Peter Jackson is determined to finish the job in adapting Tolkien's work; and if he sets his mind to something, he'll find a way.

hugs!


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 29 2007, 6:46am


Views: 2473
Well, Aerin said it before me!... But

I hope Chesterton doesn't mean that everything that follows the stream is a dead thing.... which would be going too far and becoming untrue! Sly

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 29 2007, 7:30am


Views: 2438
Hugs to you too, dear gramma!... And

I'd like to add that after starting this thread inadvertently at the wrong time, I discovered on the Off Topic board the very similar thread you yourself had started just before, for all concerned by the Virginia Tech terrible incident.
I went through all the many posts, was very moved, and learnt a lot about some of the major cultural differences between the US and the UK, through the people here on TORn.
As a French person - on top of it living in India!...- I felt rather out of place in this Anglo-Saxon world, but that is inevitable, and it's fine, no problem for me.
But what I was a bit sad about since then, was that you had never come over to this thread of mine, and even after all this time there wasn't a single word of support on your part for my proposal. I was afraid that you actually didn't like it.
Now I see that it wasn't the case, and I'm glad about that!
So, thank you very much for coming over finally and saying what you said!... I appreciate it. Heart
It feels good to know that we are at least a few people (even some of those who initially shunned the idea) who together are sending positive thoughts about this situation, for the best possible outcome. And it feels especially good to know now that you too are among us, gramma! Wink

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

(This post was edited by mae govannen on Apr 29 2007, 7:31am)


Arwen_Undomiel
Lorien


Nov 11 2009, 10:52pm


Views: 2433
Aunt Dora Baggins you're great!

Aunt Dora Baggins,

Great reply. I totally agree with you! Also, I think that the "Prayers for the Hobbit Movie" is a very sweet idea; I'll join in too.

Love,
Arwen
HeartHeart

"Life can't be all work and no TORn."-- jflower

I didn't realize this was a sad occasion.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Nov 11 2009, 11:01pm


Views: 2405
Good heavens, that was a long time ago!

I don't think I've ever gotten a reply after two years :-D But thanks for your sweet words.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Nov 15 2009, 5:18am


Views: 2424
Well, here's another.

I've just been rereading old posts on this forum, starting at the beginning (for a project I'm working on for next May), and was stunned now to find replies made this week to a a thread from 30 months ago!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!

This week: "Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Nov 15 2009, 3:33pm


Views: 4107
That's amazing!

I feel like I've fallen into some kind of time warp. I'm not sure I'd really want to go back to 2007, though. This past year was rough, and I'm glad a lot of it is behind me. Wouldn't want to go through it again. Whew!

Nice to see you, NEB! I'll be like the cat who ate the cheese and sat by the mousehole with baited breath, waiting to see what you're up to in May.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Annael
Half-elven


Dec 31 2014, 9:12pm


Views: 2218
guess it worked //

 

Since evidence can be adduced and interpreted to corroborate a virtually limitless array of world views, the human challenge is to engage that world view or set of perspectives which brings forth the most valuable, life-enhancing consequences.

- Richard Tarnas, The Passion of the Western Mind

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Jan 1 2015, 7:48am


Views: 2202
Oh my!!! This is bringing tears in my eyes!...

Thank you so much to you for remembering this from so long ago (or stumbling upon it again somehow) and for now adding this so nice conclusion to it all...! Smile
I must admit I was quite hurt at the time by the rather hostile reaction from some, which I didn't anticipate in the least and which blew my mind - and my heart -, but in the end some kind support came too... and I think you're right: somehow it has worked!!! Cool
I happen to read this comment of yours on 1.1.2015, the Day of the New Year 2015... May these words from you give me the encouragement I need often in order to summons the courage and self-confidence to follow-up boldly on the ideas and inspirations I may have...
And I take this golden opportunity to address to you too my BEST WISHES FOR THIS NEW YEAR 2015!!! Heart

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Jan 4 2015, 2:21pm


Views: 2187
This has got to be a record for number of years spanned by one thread!

So glad you're here on the boards, Mae Govannen, and also Annael, who was one of the first people to make me feel welcome here, a loooong time ago!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Jan 4 2015, 2:54pm


Views: 2204
You're probably right about the record!

And thank you for telling me that about Annael: I had no idea... What a lovely memory it must be for you... As well as an inner link that persists over the years. Your own kindness had that effect on me too.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)