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Prayers and heart-felt sympathy to Virginia Tech Students, Families, and Staff.



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 9:21am


Views: 1060
Prayers and heart-felt sympathy to Virginia Tech Students, Families, and Staff.

Such an horrific time and unbelievable loss of innocence and life. The campus where I work is the same size as VT... and we've been rocked like it happened here.

peace.


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"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


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Noneoftheabove
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 10:25am


Views: 463
What leads a person to commit such an act?

Are there warning signs? Did no one see? Why does this seem to be happening more and more with public and school related areas?

I have my theories... What are yours?

I am just so disgusted and disheartened with humanity. There are seemingly not enough good things about us anymore it seems.


(This post was edited by Noneoftheabove on Apr 17 2007, 10:28am)


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 10:34am


Views: 449
Horrible news

I sincerely hope noone here is affected.

Why, when this sort of thing happens continually, are the gun laws not looked at? Tighter controls can prevent this sort of thing.

Such a senseless waste.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


a.s.
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 10:51am


Views: 457
sad day for VA (and the world)

Very awful day. I live in Tidewater but many of my children's friends have attended or do attend Va Tech. In fact, yesterday when we got the news one of our state Health Department supervisors was visiting and her niece is a student. There were a few tense moments until she was able to connect with her (she was no where near the shootings). It's a beautiful campus, a pretty wonderful school by all accounts. I guess none of us is really safe from random violence, which is a scary thought, isn't it?

a.s.

"an seileachan"

Some say they're going to a place called Glory, and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to Purgatory, and I don't like the sound of that!
I believe in love, and live my life accordingly,
And I choose: let the mystery be.
~~~~Iris DeMent


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 11:46am


Views: 506
Humanity's still OK; just a few individuals are depraved.

If this sort of thing were typical of Humanity, it wouldn't be particularly newsworthy.


KmK
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 12:01pm


Views: 427
Very sad


In Reply To
Very awful day. I live in Tidewater but many of my children's friends have attended or do attend Va Tech. In fact, yesterday when we got the news one of our state Health Department supervisors was visiting and her niece is a student. There were a few tense moments until she was able to connect with her (she was no where near the shootings). It's a beautiful campus, a pretty wonderful school by all accounts. I guess none of us is really safe from random violence, which is a scary thought, isn't it?

a.s.


Horrifying. Especially as a parent. But sadly, very true.
I decided to leave Boston to raise my children in a more rural area thinking they'd be much safer here. Don't get too much more "rural" than Vermont. In August of '06 two people, adults, were killed in an elementary school shooting a couple towns over from where we live. Actually, one was killed in their home and then the guy went into the school (which only had teachers in it at the time) and killed his next victim.
I'm glad your friends are alright.
My heart goes out to everyone involved there.


Rivendweller
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 12:01pm


Views: 433
It is so hard to understand

Just what could be in someones mind that leads them to such widespread violence and hatred. This is a horrible, horrible tragedy and senseless to boot.

As I drove to work this morning they were speaking about just how easy it is to obtain a gun in VA. ( and probably many other states...) At the gun shops, you can take an "on-the-spot" background test - pass: you get your gun, fail: go down to the local gun show and get it there - easily.

I remember when our Constitution really meant .." WE THE PEOPLE" and not " We the Corporations, the Lobbyists, the Insurance Co.'s, etc..." I want my Country back!

My heart goes out to all those who have lost loved ones, to those that witnessed such evil as they prepared to do nothing more than get up and go to class.

Yes gramma....may there be peace.


Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back....
Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.

(This post was edited by Rivendweller on Apr 17 2007, 12:04pm)


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 1:31pm


Views: 509
Actually, tighter controls are part of the reason this tragedy is so bad.

VT has a rule that everyone that with a concealed carry permit has to check their gun in if they come on campus. Representatives from VT recently lobbied against a state law that would have prevented the school from having such restrictions. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker said, "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus." Here's a link to a january 31, 2006 story from in The Roanoke Times: http://www.roanoke.com/...anoke/wb/wb/xp-50658 . Feeling safe, and being safe are two different things.

If the law-abiding citizens would have had their weapons, somone might have stopped the killer before he killed so many people.

This is reminiscent of when my house was burglarized (over 10 years ago) shortly after we moved in. My mother-in-law purchased us some security lights. She was well-meaning, but mis-guided. Our house was broken into in broad daylight, when we weren't home, as is the case with most burglaries. Security lights wouldn't have helped in the slightest. Of course, they don't make the situation worse, as gun controls do. Law-abiding citizens follow them, criminals and crazies don't.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 2:26pm


Views: 453
Thanks for that insight.

I remember after Columbine, one thing that reassured me about humanity was my daily commute. People were driving reasonably courteously, following the rules, (except of course speeding a bit) and not hurting each other. Sometimes a crazy driver causes mayhem, but that too is newsworthy. For 25 years I've been commuting, and the overwhelming majority of drivers get along. It's easy to focus on the horrible, but it's worth looking around at the vast majority who are good people.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 2:38pm


Views: 430
There is some good in this world... and it's worth fighting for

One negative can overshadow so many positives. I see individuals being decent to each other... especially here all the time!

There is evil out there, but it doesn't rule the world. You see at times like these that so many people come forward to help and support the victims and their families... that's what I focus on.

In cases like this, how can we possibly anticipate unless the individual(s) behave in such a way that warns others of their instability... then hope that THEY do something to alert or intercede. Years ago, there was a co-worker here that I knew was volatile, on the edge, capable, and primed to blow. I alerted my supervisors, and they did nothing. For months I watched my back and warned my co-workers just to be sensitive to his feelings and not stir up more problems. We kept things light, congenial, non-confrontational. Eventually, he calmed down.

We keep our eyes open. We do something when we see danger signs. We do our best to make the world as kind and fair as possible.


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Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 2:42pm


Views: 463
It's a complex problem, for sure

Of course, the person who did this was presumably a law-abiding person himself until something took him over the edge. So is it better for all law-abiding people to have a gun so that if one of them goes crazy someone else can shoot him, or is it better if all law-abiding people just say no to guns?

Judging by the statistics between the UK and the US (which I just happened to hear on the news today, in a discussion of this case), it seems that it's the law-abiding people with guns who are the real problem. The UK apparently has a few hundred gun-related killings a year, mostly criminals shooting each other, although sometimes a criminal does shoot an innocent member of the public (there have been a few worrying cases like this recently in fact). The US has many thousands of gun deaths, far more than the difference in population, and it seems a lot of those are either accidents, or kids getting hold of guns, or maybe law-abiding people like this student in Virginia who snap and have a gun handy. That's why I wonder if the solution (ordinary people having guns to defend themselves against criminals) may be worse than the problem (since the odds of getting shot by a criminal are much less than getting shot by an ordinary person, when ordinary people have guns).

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Noneoftheabove
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 2:47pm


Views: 434
And you're absolutely right, it is easy to focus on the horrible.

Maybe part of the problem is the news media dwelling on the more negative aspects of any particular tragedy, just because the drama of it sells.

But It is good to be reminded that I should focus on the positive outcomes and reactions to this..


White Gull
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 2:59pm


Views: 431
So very sad.

I'll write a song for you though none will sing it.
I'll wait for news of you though none will bring it.
But I will feel your breath on ev'ry wind,
And in my heart your mem'ry meets no end.


WG


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 3:07pm


Views: 434
I don't see it as so complex at all

If a person has easy access to dangerous weapons when they snap they're going to cause a lot of harm to others. Gun controls don't eliminate access to weapons but they certainly help.
Despite statistics to the contrary, gun lobbyists do a good job of convincing people they are safer with weapons for protection. I'm sure they'll take full advantage of this situation to push their agenda.
My heart goes out to all those affected by this tragedy.

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"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Donry
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2007, 3:33pm


Views: 449
I must say

I'm in total agreement with farfromhome. I've heard a number of people coming out in defence of guns since yesterday. I even heard one person state that without guns America would fall into anarchy and citizens would become slaves. There are many countries in the world with gun control laws that are living in relatively peaceful societies that aren't falling into anarchy or has it's citizens enslaved by it's government. People died yesterday and even before we knew how many or who did it or why, there were arguments defending the right to bear arms or arguments to strengthen gun laws. It just doesn't seem right to me. That's all. I feel so sorry for all those families and friends who lost someone yesterday and for all the kids and professors who survived and must now live with the nightmares.

Lloyd: [sees framed newspaper article about moon landing] No Way!
[chuckles]
Lloyd: WE LANDED ON THE MOON!

(This post was edited by Donry on Apr 17 2007, 3:35pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 3:55pm


Views: 432
Well...

...whichever way you lean it's pretty clear that all the cops standing around for two hours with all their weapons weren't any use at all.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 4:11pm


Views: 442
The tragedy isn't that one individual was depraved

(if you call it depraved - I think snapping under pressure can happen to almost anyone). The tragedy is that when there are lots of guns in the hands of ordinary people, the one individual who becomes depraved, or depressed, or just goes off the deep end, can inflict so much damage so quickly. Without the guns, this student would have trashed his room, screamed at a few people - who knows? But he couldn't have done what he did.

(By the way, someone I saw interviewed on this subject today said that there are this many American children killed by guns every single week, but that never makes the news. The same thing happens with transportation accidents - a plane crash gets lots of coverage, yet far more people die every day in car crashes than in a year's worth of air accidents. We remember the big events and forget the mundane ones that leave just as many people in grief.)

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Ciars
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 4:17pm


Views: 393
Shocking and horrifying

My thoughts are with the families and friends of those who died or have been injured. It was chilling to hear the shots being fired over the news , recorded from one of the students mobiles, as you knew each sound meant needless death and suffering.
I guess we'll never know what makes or drives a person to commit such an atrocity - I can't fathom why.



May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind be always at your back.


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 4:27pm


Views: 413
Link inside.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/...ledExperimentRev.pdf

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Patty
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 4:38pm


Views: 411
Thanks for putting this in perspective, L. Ron,

not for nothing are you one of the Eldar.

At home, amongst the Mallorn trees.


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 4:40pm


Views: 420
The media and gun control advocates got the jump "pushing their agenda" first.

It amazes me that there are people who freak out over The Patriot Act, or the possibility that their international phone call may be bugged, but are ready to shout for joy when the government wants to take away their right to protect themselves against criminals or an oppresseive government.

All governments eventually become oppressive. The architects of the Constitution knew this. It's why the 2nd amendment is there. They knew that an armed populace is difficult to oppress.

It may seem that I'm ignoring the tragedy and making this a political issue. I'm not. I feel terrible about this whole thing. I must note, however, that the first radio news item I heard about this included a comment about Virginia being a place where hunting and gun ownership is popular. This was part of the first sentence the newscaster spoke. Talk about pushing an agenda.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Aragorn'sSexyScar
Rohan

Apr 17 2007, 4:45pm


Views: 461
The root of the problem is simple...

Here in the U.K, I have never had any fear of being shot while at work, out shopping, on a bus or train, in a supermarket or just walking down the street.No one I know has or wishes to own a gun.No one I know has been the victim of gun crime.No one I know has been in a situation where their life has been in danger because of the easy availability of guns.I have never seen a gun or held one.Can a 42yr-old American say the same?

Guns should be illegal as they are here and in many other countries.Is no one in America just apalled that there is the need for metal detectors and armed guards in schools and universities? What happened to the Land Of The Free? It seems that America is held in thrall of the gun and if you press for stricter gun controls then you are seen as un-American.What further outrage will shock the lawmakers into action?

The same old arguments were spouted on the US news shows yesterday, blaming pop culture.How is it that the rest of the civilised world watches the same movies and video games and yet they do not resort to mass murder? Guns are the problem and it's time to say enough is enough.I love America and Americans very much and I despair every time this tragedy occurs.Take the guns away and take back America.Make the country safe again or a generation will become even more blase' to this kind of incident.

My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by this terrible tragedy.


diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 4:47pm


Views: 399
A native Montrealer is among the dead...

People here were trying to get over the September shootings at Dawson College here in Montreal, now the news that a fellow Montrealer, a French teacher, is among the victims at VT.

*sigh*

When will the sadness and madness ever end?



God Bless. God Keep.



FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:01pm


Views: 430
Well, I certainly hope for America's sake

that there's never a situation where the populace will have to defend itself with firearms against the government. Because let's face it, the government has some pretty heavy ordnance. The 2nd Amendment, as I understand it, was to provide for a militia, which would normally mean keeping a rifle locked away at home in case of invasion or whatever. That's what happens in Switzerland, which also has a tradition of an armed population. But there are no gun deaths to speak of in Switzerland, because the guns must be rifles, and must be locked away securely when not needed for military service.

But I understand where you're coming from, which is why I think this is a complex subject. The right to bear arms is deeply ingrained in the US. You have always had guns available, and you are understandably skeptical about what might happen if only the law-abiding people gave their guns up, leaving the most irresponsible and criminally-minded with theirs. It seems easy from the other side of the Atlantic, where there are essentially no guns to worry about, but in the US the problem is going to be how to get from here (guns in the hands of ordinary people, responsible and otherwise) to there (guns safely out of the hands of everyone, unless they are properly trained and responsible).

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:07pm


Views: 409
I appreciate your understanding.

However, the 2nd Amendment is no only intended for militias. That is a recent interpretation come up with by gun control advocates.

As far as a gun-free-Europe is concerned, check out the link I posted in the reply to your original post.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:08pm


Views: 368
Wholeheartedly agree with that. //

 

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:09pm


Views: 398
That wording in article is so biased

it immediately makes me question the authenticity and relevence of those statistics. With words like 'draconian measures' in the intro you can see right away which way the writer is leaning and reading through it briefly I feel the author has skewed the information and used it poorly to prove his point. Yes, the gun registry endeavor in Canada was a financial fiasco but that does not directly equate with gun control being a faulty endeavor. Just cause something wasn't done right doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do.
If that article shows me anything it's that the academic rigor at Simon Frazer is woefully lacking and they need some better professors.

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"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:11pm


Views: 390
I don't want to start a gun control debate

Only to say that if the general public were not allowed to have guns, incidents like this would be very rare indeed.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:18pm


Views: 392
And that demonstrates two things

The police guns weren't able to prevent the further killings, so much for an armed defense.
The killer would not have been able to continue on a such a killing rampage without HIS gun.
No statistics can change those facts.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:21pm


Views: 397
The Fraser Institute

is a very right-wing organization in Canada, not so very far in its thinking from the NRA in America. They fought against Canada's attempts to regulate guns, and I believe they were relatively successful, despite the fact that most of us in Eastern Canada were heavily in favour of the changes. Still, Canada does have fairly strict gun laws, and despite the largely undefended border with the US, has a much lower rate of gun death.

But the Fraser Institute's whole argument is a red herring in any case. The hugely bloated gun-death statistics in the US aren't caused by criminals - criminals have guns in every country. The massively higher death-rate in the US is caused by ordinary people shooting each other - by accident, in anger, mostly unpremeditated, and probably regretted almost instantly. If there had been no gun, there would have been no death.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:23pm


Views: 377
A horrible situation.

I don't have television access this week, so the only news I get is when I happen to check a news website. I was stunned yesterday to find the death toll increasing so alarmingly every time I checked.

I'm also frustrated that people are so quick to rush to judgment; that if guns were banned this wouldn't have happened, or it's the cops' fault because they're useless, or even taking digs at the President for his comments (that didn't happen here but other places I've been reading).

Bad things happened at VT yesterday, and since none of us was there, none of us can possibly understand why it happened or make judgments about what should have been done differently.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:25pm


Views: 381
Not to drag this off on a tangent

but that sounds like a good argument for banning alcohol. Or cars. Or alcohol and cars. More people are killed by drunk driving than by guns, after all.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:31pm


Views: 410
It was the police that didn't stop the killing...

not their guns. Guns are inanimate objects. The point was that there was not a proper response to the situation. If there had been, it's more likely that the *police* would have used their guns to stop they killer.

Also, that the killer wouldn't have gone on a rampage without a gun is pure conjecture. He could have just as easily walked around stabbing people, or driven around in his car and run over people. Crazy people do crazy things. If he hadn't had access to a gun, it is possible, and likely, that he would have chosen another way to kill people.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:32pm


Views: 379
Well, alcohol and cars are banned

(in combination). And you are certainly right that if cars were banned, many people's lives would be saved. It's the same situation of a dangerous piece of technology in the hands of a very large number of people, some of whom, statistically, are bound to be irresponsible and end up killing someone. But at least cars are regulated - you have to pass a test, carry a license with your name and address on it, prove that you are physically and mentally fit to drive. Even that much regulation would be a big step forward for guns, wouldn't it?

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:34pm


Views: 382
That's no tangent. MADD reports

for 2005 that over 43,000 people were killed in traffic accidents, over 16,000 alcohol related. It is a very relevant statistic because nobody gets up in arms about traffic deaths like they do gun deaths, even though it's a much bigger problem.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:36pm


Views: 378
In fact

I don't have a problem with some regulation of guns. There are some people who don't have any business owning guns. (Most of them, however, would get them anyway, even if they weren't allowed to, so it's rather a moot point.)

It's just the whole "BAN 'EM ALL!!!" screeching that comes out every time there's an incident like this that drives me crazy.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:37pm


Views: 372
The difference lies in the intended use

of a gun versus alcohol or cars. The sole intended use of a gun is to inflict physical harm. It is designed as a weapon, a very good weapon and so should be regulated.
As for cars killing people, I heard a weird stastitic on the radio this morning. Apparently more people are killed by donkeys than by cars in the world. Crazy Ok, we're really off on a tangent now.

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"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:38pm


Views: 368
I did rush in my choice of references.

I had read a study about the crime rate in England after the gun ban (I know someone who's daughter was kidnapped by armed home-invaders in England after the ban) and I just grabbed that one. It's not the only one out there, though.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:39pm


Views: 378
Why don't we ban crime instead of guns? //

 

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 5:41pm


Views: 356
Maybe the U.N. should start a donkey safety course. //

 

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 5:43pm


Views: 404
Well...

Well, I certainly hope for America's sake that there's never a situation where the populace will have to defend itself with firearms against the government.

Already happened. Blacks in the South during the early and mid 20th century depended on the threat of "the shotgun behind the door" to keep from getting dragged out of their beds and lynched by the government. As Ida B. Wells, a co-founder of the NAACP remarked, "The Remington rifle should have a place of honor in every black home."

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 5:44pm


Views: 401
I don't know if you're joking, AE...

...or if you're really upset, but this comment isn't really logical. Crime is banned. That's why it's crime.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 5:44pm


Views: 378
Right

and people would have just stood still while he went about stabbing or running them over.
Of course if someone wants to kill a lot of people they can find a way to, but why make it easier for them?
As for the police response not being proper, I don't think we can fairly say that without knowking all the facts. It's very likely that on such a large campus the killer could have hidden easily and with only two victims in the first shootings it may have been perceived to be non-random and over with.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 5:58pm


Views: 363
That's a decidedly peculiar way of not starting a debate./



FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 6:08pm


Views: 395
I sometimes forget

what a scary place America can be.

Actually, my husband and two Irish colleagues were in Virginia last week (at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond). After various meetings, they each independently decided to walk back to the hotel half a mile or so away, rather than waiting for the limo. When they got back to the hotel, the concierge seemed surprised and a little concerned that they hadn't waited for the limo. At the time, they thought she was just surprised at the Irish habit of walking rather than driving whenever they can. Now my husband's wondering if the streets they walked through (which he said seemed fine) weren't considered safe.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2007, 6:14pm


Views: 391
You have only to look at Washington, D.C.,

where gun control laws are among the strictest in the country, to see how true your last paragraph is. I never realized till I lived in other cities how common murders were in D.C. compared to the rest of the country.

The problem with outlawing guns, just like outlawing drugs and abortions, is that people are going to be able to get them, anyway. They're just going to have to deal with criminals to do it. I know that's not the case in the U.K., but I just don't see that kind of system working here.

~~~~~~~~

I used to be GaladrielTX, but it's springtime and I'm shedding.



GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2007, 6:15pm


Views: 531
BTW, in this thread,

why do people keep referring to Virginia Tech as VT?

Isn’t it VPI (Virginia Polytechnic Institute), or has that changed?

~~~~~~~~

I used to be GaladrielTX, but it's springtime and I'm shedding.



Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 6:16pm


Views: 369
It's a joke that isn't a joke.

BTW, I am not making fun of you, I agree with you.

The point is: *banning* things doesn't work. It usually just creates a black market.

Prohibition is a shining example of the results of banning something. It may have stopped some people from drinking, but it effectively made criminals out of others and poured millions of dollars into the pockets of organized crime.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


GaladrielTX
Tol Eressea


Apr 17 2007, 6:19pm


Views: 417
Coincidentally, I'm 42.

I've never worried about getting shot (except when I was at a protest once and armed police officers were called in). I’ve seen one gun IRL (not counting those carried by police officers). It was owned by a boyfriend of mine who was being treated for bipolar disorder and who, according to the law, shouldn’t have had it. So much for laws being a simple solution.

It's not the laws. I suspect has something to do with the culture.

~~~~~~~~

I used to be GaladrielTX, but it's springtime and I'm shedding.



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 6:20pm


Views: 386
That's funny.

Way back in the 70s, when I was staying at a nice little hotel in Westminster the night clerk expressed similar concerned astonishment after I returned from a very late evening walk through Soho.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 6:21pm


Views: 399
I'm staying resolutely away from the public-policy debate...

but it is merely that-- a disagreement about policy-- and no reason for anyone to despair of Humanity.


Fight for us! And regain your honor, learn valuable technical skills, and qualify for up to four years' college tuition! What say you?


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 6:23pm


Views: 362
Out of ignorance.

At least I'm guilty of that (okay, there's a straight line for you!). Laziness, too. I just shortened Virginia Tech out of lazy typing habits. I hadn't seen or heard of it referred to by it's complete name.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Tintallë
Gondor

Apr 17 2007, 6:26pm


Views: 496
I'm not so sure it's that simple.

I am absolutely sure that no amount of stress could induce me to go on a killing spree and use a gun on innocent people. That's because of my personal values and ethics, which are as inescapably a part of me as my brown eyes and size 6 feet.

My son owns firearms. He enjoys target shooting. He also has a concealed carry permit. He is alive and well today because he was carrying a weapon when two men attacked him with knives - BIG knives - in a store parking lot. (He was on his way home from checking out a security alarm at his workplace.) He was suddenly struck with fear for his life. His training kicked in and he pullled out his gun. He aimed - he did not shoot - and they ran. He collapsed in a miserable shaking heap afterward and suffered from insomnia and nightmares for weeks, but the experience reinforced his belief that gun ownership is not the evil I had always told him it was.

A gun ban would not prevent a knife attack. Quite possibly my son would have been left bleeding and dying in the parking lot so two thugs could steal about $80 in cash and a couple of sacks of groceries from Wal-Mart. I found myself feeling profoundly thankful that he had been carrying a gun. You would have to know me to know how unbelievable that statement is. Was.

I was once an advocate of banning guns, but now I am not so sure. I doubt whether banning guns is the answer. I do not think it will address the sick, sick American culture that places such a low value on life. Americans are bombarded with violent images all day every day - the newspaper focuses on sensational stories of murder and violence, television dramas and movies are rife with slayings and gunplay, many of the most popular video games are non-stop violence and glorify or at least downplay criminal activity, and a lot of rap and hip hop lyrics describe violent acts. Americans are desensitized to violence. Oh, when someone goes on a killing spree there are lots of pictures of grieving people and newscasters talk in sympathetic, heartfelt tones for a week or two but no one really addresses the cultural/sociological etiology, the root cause of the behavior. I'm sure the students at Virginia Tech will be offered post-traumatic counseling and support in the weeks to come, but where are the efforts at prevention? How do we identify and support individuals before they reach the breaking point?

I will be interested to learn if Cho Seung-hui's friends had any inkling that he was unhappy or stressed and, if so, what they did about it. How is it that a senior English major became a mass murderer? Surely that did not happen overnight.

I would say that the basic problem in America is not the availability of guns but rather the lack of any sense of community and responsibility for others that pervades American society these days. I live in southern California. Gang violence is a big problem. Racism is alive and well - can you imagine your teenager going out with a bunch of his friends to beat a migrant worker to death? It happened here. I live in a "me, me, me" society. Plastic surgery is a big business here because people are so self-obsessed and so preoccupied with outward appearances. We have housing tracts, not communities. I've moved 16 times in my life; when I moved here it was the first time no one - NO ONE - greeted me or showed the slightest interest in a new individual living nearby. People avert their eyes when passing each other on the street; most are startled or uncomfortable when I look them in the eye and say "Good morning!"

My daughter spent an undergraduate year in Adelaide, Australia. She was upset and crying one day on a city street one day and people - total strangers! - attempted to help her - offered to sit with her, talk, buy her a cup of coffee, hold her hand. When I learned about the free hugs campaign I was not surprised that it was started by an Australian. My daughter is back in Adelaide now and will probably stay there because the culture is healthier and more supportive than she has experienced in America.

So, gun control? Maybe. The more I think about it, though, the more I think it is not the answer.

That said, it still made my skin crawl to see my son cleaning his gun the other night. I came very close to throwing up.

Please remember that this is my opinon only. I would hope for it to spark thoughtful debate rather than angry dissent. Thanks.


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 6:26pm


Views: 390
Sometimes I watch those movies about the wild west...

...where walking down the street, one could get caught in cross fire. I ponder what it must have been like to live like that.

Then I realize, in some ways, things aren't so different now. My fairly placid neighborhood has become gang contested turf. The high school down the block was raided to recover guns stolen from a gun store theft. My friend who works for the district attorney's office said they had to relocate two high school kids temporarily to Mexico (with their mother's family) when they their lives were threatened after testifying against gang members. A few years back, one of my students was killed when a stray bullet came through the wall of her house, hitting her as she sat doing homework at her dining room table at 4 in the afternoon. (This was a block from the school where I worked.) Someone ran through the downtown bar district shooting at someone they were arguing with, hitting a bystander and killing them. Those items are just a drop in the bucket for life in the city.

My city has so many wonderful things in it and so many wonderful people in it. But the gang issue is overwhelming us. That said, although we have an old 22 in the house (kept in some box somewhere and unloaded) and I have gone target shooting, there is no way I would feel safer with a working handgun in the house. Now, instead of worrying just about the gang thugs, I have to worry about every damn schmoe on the street who gets ticked off while driving on the freeway (and we've had quite a few highway road rage shootings). We need fewer guns... not more. I don't believe for a moment that the gun lobbies in this country are motivated by freedom and constitution. They are motivated by money and power. Plain and simple. I don't doubt there are people motivated by more altruistic motives but they can not look to the gun lobby for reason. They must find their own reason and accept that we can look at things with a different paradigm than "we all get guns cause we're all free... without guns we're not free". Is there no other way to look at this issue? (And having said that, I absolutely refuse to debate this issue here or anywhere else. I will make no more comments re: gun control in the US.)

When one has a hammer in one's hand, every problem looks like a nail. When one has a gun in one's possession, it's too easy to see it as a solution to a problem. There are too many stressed out idiots walking this earth. I don't trust them to understand how most problems are inappropriate to solve with guns.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 6:27pm


Views: 366
Nope

It's still known as VPI.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 6:30pm


Views: 357
but...

I saw students standing in front of a freestanding 'logo' that was VT. Use google images to search for Virginia Tech... dozens of VT logos come up.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 6:33pm


Views: 413
Well..

Guns should be illegal as they are here and in many other countries.

The big problem is that a lot of very poor people, especially in the rural south, are extremely dependent on hunting (rabbits, squirrels, possums, etc.) for their food. If guns were illegal they would literally starve. I know this, because I was one of them when I was a kid.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 6:35pm


Views: 378
and that....

is a reasoned opinion I could discuss with. Not quotes spit back from a political lobby group. Regardless of how we might each come out on the gun control issue, your observations on US culture are spot on.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




(This post was edited by Magpie on Apr 17 2007, 6:35pm)


diedye
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 6:37pm


Views: 370
*cough*nitpick*cough*...

Tongue

That's how it's referred to in the media... so It's stands to reason that people would abbreviate Virginia Tech with VT.

That's my reason for doing, anyway.



Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 17 2007, 6:54pm


Views: 409
A friendly reminder

There's some great debate and points being made by everyone on all sides of this issue. Please just take care to make your own points without disparaging someone else or the points they're making.

Thanks!


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"All we have to decide is what to do with the boards that are given to us"



"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase

TORn Calendar


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 7:06pm


Views: 392
As I stand with one foot firmly planted on each side of the debate,

what I really want to say is what was going through my head this morning. There is *nothing* in this world that is ever going to make us safe. We are always in danger, but we live our lives anyway. I would hate for people to look at this and think we need to do something draconian like have students take off their shoes or some dumb thing before they enter class. People freak out about things like this, and understandably so, and yet a huge percentage of people don't wear their seatbelts. I figure we take reasonable measures to make ourselves safe, but then we put our lives in the hands of God and go on living.

*steps off soapbox*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 7:16pm


Views: 351
Agreed.

Between guns, cars, and alcohol I'd say alcohol was by far the greatest evil.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 17 2007, 7:37pm


Views: 362
Just for general edification,

here is what Snopes has to say on death by donkey vs death by transport-of-your-choice: http://www.snopes.com/...nce/stats/donkey.htm

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 17 2007, 7:39pm


Views: 357
This is the first time

I've wished NewTorn had the 'mod up' feature.

You make some very good points that are worth thinking over, Tint.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Morwen
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 7:53pm


Views: 335
Well said, Aunt Dora

You speak for me.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine


Rivendweller
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 8:01pm


Views: 367
Yet, you wouldn't use a semi-automatic weapon

to shoot your prey would you? There wouldn't be much left of it to feed the family with.

It is a hard and tragic lesson we are seeing here. Lessons we fail to learn from each time... here are some of the 'reasons' for the shooting...


Quote

BLACKSBURG, Va. (CP) — The killer in the bloodiest U.S. gun massacre has been identified as a 23-year-old undergraduate English major at Virginia Tech whose creative writing was so troubling that the university referred him to counselling.
Cho Seung-Hui, a South Korean who had been legally in the United States for 14 years, apparently left a rambling note with a list of grievances.
“You caused me to do this,” he wrote.


The note railed against “rich kids,” “debauchery” and “deceitful charlatans” on campus, according to news reports that also suggested he might have been taking medication for depression.
He was reported to be getting increasingly violent and erratic in the days before the deadly rampage.




Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back....
Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 8:06pm


Views: 363
Nope

Yet, you wouldn't use a semi-automatic weapon to shoot your prey would you? There wouldn't be much left of it to feed the family with.

I used a .22, same caliber as one of the two pistols the Virginia Tech killer used.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 8:18pm


Views: 356
Plus...

...bullets cost money. One shot, one kill or I'd have some explaining to do.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 17 2007, 8:22pm)


Rivendweller
Lorien


Apr 17 2007, 8:29pm


Views: 370
I understand

it is all in the intent of the person in whose hands rest the weapon. Your reasons and those of others are completely and understandably different than those of a killer.

Where does the answer lie? I wish with all my heart I knew.


Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back....
Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.


'esquey
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 8:43pm


Views: 398
Wow. So arming the public with even more guns will prevent gun deaths?

I can't even wrap my head around this.

There's a reason the U.S. is the laughingstock of the world.

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*

(This post was edited by Altaira on Apr 18 2007, 1:28pm)


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 8:48pm


Views: 339
No one is suggesting that everyone should run out a buy a gun.

That's the sort of accusation that makes the gun control faction look silly.

They're simply stating that taking guns from people who aren't going to use them to kill someone anyway doesn't make the world a safer place.

And the US is no more a laughingstock than any other country. Every country has its flaws and stupidities, and flinging nationalistic insults about only makes everyone angry.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/

(This post was edited by RosieLass on Apr 17 2007, 8:49pm)


'esquey
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 8:50pm


Views: 384
It may not make the world safer

But at least I can rest assured that my government didn't give a mad man the constitutional right to bear arms and kill 30 innocent college students.

And if every one of those students was armed with a gun, do you really think it would have resulted in a lower death count? If anything, it may have increased it in the chaos.

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 8:54pm


Views: 358
Well....

...frankly I think the problem is that the mental health system in the US is broken. From recent reports the killer was a very troubled young man who could have benefited from adequate treatment. Unfortunatley the dismantling of American mental health instituitons in the1980s led to heavy dependence on woefully underfunded local community resources. And these seemed to have failed not only the young man in question, but many other recent shooters as well.

As for inner city crime, if you look at it a certain perverse way, gangs are basically urban militias providing protection to their members and families and neighborhoods against other gangs and (to their minds) the oppressive racist police. If ever the police could gain the trust of the residents this attitude might be turned around. But unfortunately many recent events (such as the "50 shot" Bell killing by police in Queens, or the off duty beatings of civilians by drunken police in Chicago) indicate that the mutual mistrust is a sad spiral that is totally out of control.

The first problem could be solved by more government funding. But the second can only be solved by a drastic change of attitude on both sides.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Morwen
Rohan


Apr 17 2007, 9:06pm


Views: 324
Agree about the mental health system

Mentally ill people in the United States don't get the services they need even when they ask for them, and there is still enough of a stigma against mental illness that many are unwilling to seek out services.

The Yahoo news article I read stated that this young man had set a fire in a dorm and stalked women. Both fire-setting and stalking are indicators of violent behavior to come. If this information is true, it's unfortunate but not surprising that no one intervened then.

Link to news article

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine


(This post was edited by Morwen on Apr 17 2007, 9:09pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 9:07pm


Views: 325
Good point!

I thought right after I posted this that anywhere can seem dangerous if it's unfamiliar - and I guess hotel staff tend to worry about tourists because not only do they not necessarily know which places to avoid, but they may look like sitting ducks to the local lowlife who can pick them out pretty easily!

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 9:07pm


Views: 333
The number of deaths is irrelevant.

People spout about lunatics with guns being somehow "worse" because they can kill more people. But one death by a knife or a stick any other non-firearm is still one death too many.

All of this furor over weapons is ignoring the root of the problem, which is what possesses people to need to kill in the first place.

Until you can state that your country has solved that problem, your country has no claim of moral superiority over mine.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 9:15pm


Views: 328
sorry... just can't buy this:


Quote
gangs are basically urban militias providing protection to their members and families and neighborhoods against other gangs and (to their minds) the oppressive racist police.



Perhaps to some slight extent this is true. But gangs exists mainly as a way for people to gain money and power. If one gang has to protect itself against the other than it's because they both want the money and power. People on the north side are just as oppressed by the gang activity as they are by any police action. Those high school kids I spoke of had to be shipped out of town for protection from the gang that robbed and beat them when they agreed to testify against them. We have adults grooming their 2nd graders in the thug life. Initiation into the gangs require the initiate to beat and or shoot people (and there have been numerous innocent, random victims of this sort of activity here.) Dang.... Tell me you live amongst the gangs (as I do) and then I'll be able to calm myself a little.


A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




(This post was edited by Altaira on Apr 18 2007, 1:31pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 9:17pm


Views: 301
But alcohol has been a staple of human existence

for millennia. I know that doesn't necessarily make it safe, but it shows we can coexist successfully with it. Whereas cars are destroying the planet, and they've only been around for 100 years. There are times when I think the ents had it exactly right!

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 17 2007, 9:26pm


Views: 308
Blanket comment: editing of comments about the value of others' comments is imminent {nt}

 


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"All we have to decide is what to do with the boards that are given to us"



"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase

TORn Calendar


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 9:27pm


Views: 323
Like I said...

..."if you look at it a certain perverse way". I do work with inner city kids as well as gang members, and they do tell me they believe the gangs provide them with protection. (Yes, if only from the gang itself.) True, there is money and power as well, but, chillingly, they view themselves as the good guys. And virtually all of them, gang and non-gang, firmly believe the police are out to get them.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 9:32pm


Views: 290
Well...

...as far as cars are concerned we'll eventually either run out of oil or else finally get some common sense. But there will alwyas be alcohol. And i've seen it ruin more lives than i care to think.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Pukel-man
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 9:38pm


Views: 339
One of the unwritten laws of American politics . . .

. . . is that you aren't allowed to solve any problem through comparison with another country. That would imply that America is not the most free and moral society in the world, which is unpatriotic.

One simply cannot say 'Look at these fifty countries with stricter gun laws and miniscule gun crime' and cite them as evidence. America is different. America is special. Americans don't need this kind of thing - they're better, they work harder, they're more pious. In America it's okay to repudiate empirical evidence with half-baked theory, because all empirical evidence is invalid unless it involves America or Americans.

It boggles my mind that an American can look at a graph showing perfect correlation between gun murder and gun ownership across a range of societies and cultures, yet still believe guns make him safer. It boggles my mind that any American can point to their ickle snub-nosed handgun as the only thing standing between freedom and government tyranny, even as they watch their tax money poured into massive armed forces and multi-million dollar military vehicles.

But politics in the US always has been a sort of faith rather than a science, and that's not going to change any time soon.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 9:43pm


Views: 323
I do hope

that moral superiority isn't at issue here. Every country has criminals, every country has racism, and hate crime, and senseless, tragic killings. But America has more gun-deaths than other countries, probably just because America has more guns. I suspect that very few of the people who end up using a gun to kill someone actually imagined that they would ever do so, any more than anyone expects they will ever kill someone with their car. But cars and guns are dangerous, and the more of them there are around, the more of them will cause damage, just through sheer force of the laws of probability. It's not about morality at all.

Several people have mentioned, though, that they feel American society is very fractured, and that this may also be causing more violence to happen, which in turn makes people want to have a gun for self-protection. I don't know enough about that to comment, but I think it's a different issue. Still, it does make me realize just what a difficult question gun control is, and I've learned a lot from all the different viewpoints that have come across in this thread. What's so great about TORn, for me, is that everyone seems to have managed to get their points across (some of them clearly very deeply held) in a way that actually leads to a bit more enlightenment, rather than the mindless confrontation that mostly seems to go on in the media.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 17 2007, 9:59pm


Views: 292
Weapons of mass destruction?

While I agree with your general point that the underlying problems that lead to murder needs to be solved, eliminating the opportunity for mass murder doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I think 33 deaths are worse than one death, and if the killer had only a knife or a stick he almost certainly couldn't have killed 33 people before being overcome. I expect everyone here would concede the general point: is anyone going to defend the right of members of the public to possess nerve gas or nuclear bombs? It's a mater of assigning the appropriate amount of regulation to weapons which are differently dangerous.

Sure, it won't be perfect. But that's true of all laws.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Detail from earliest version of Thror's MapTolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.

Apr. 16-22: Tolkien's patterns, devices and calligraphy.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 10:01pm


Views: 307
Well..

which in turn makes people want to have a gun for self-protection.

The thing is most people aren't going to be able to use a firearm very well, especially in the dark in the middle of the night after just being woke up by a strange noise. And a loaded gun just lying around in the bedroom is a very bad thing. So the best protection IMHO is a starter pistol, preferably a .38. Starter pistols have plugged barrels so no way they can shoot real bullets. But the blanks, especially .38s, make a really big noise and a very bright flash, and any burglar is going to be scared spitless and run away. But if he does manage to get his hands on it first you can run and get a good head start as he's shooting blanks at you.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 10:05pm


Views: 292
It is a moral issue in the sense that...

...I'm beginning to hear echoes of "my country is superior to yours because we don't allow guns," and that's all I'm complaining about.

You're right. Most people have been able to express their points of view in reasonable and thoughtful ways, and I have learned a few things in reading this thread myself.

It's just when someone whips out an "easy" solution (BAN GUNS!!!1!ELEVEN!!) or starts disparaging another country's laws and values--as if their own was perfect--or makes offensive insinuations that Americans think we're so superior and are only getting what we deserve, that I start getting my nose out of joint.

As many in this thread (myself included) have tried to say, if you take away everyone's guns, you still have the same number of angry, violent people with murderous compulsions, and that hasn't really solved the problem.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 10:08pm


Views: 289
Of course.

It's the "let's deal with the underlying problem and stop focusing exclusively on the symptoms" part of the argument that I'm trying to emphasize.

Too many people think that dealing with guns will end the problem, and that they can stop worrying about it when that happens, and it's simply not true.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


'esquey
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 10:10pm


Views: 302
The number of deaths is irrelevant?!?!

Yes the death of one is horrible, but there is no way you can convince me that multiplying that number by 30 is irrelevant. The magnitude of that number is why it's being called a massacre.

And if Cho Seung-Hui had been armed with a knife the damage he would have inflicted would have been much less, and many more kids would have walked out of that classroom unharmed.

Yes, the deeper problem is wondering why people kill--but before we get into the psyche of all the demented people in the world, shouldn't the U.S. as a country do all they can to make sure weapons that can kill innocent people should not be legally allowed to be owned by these people?

I'm going to share with you a graph presented to me by a friend:



The HH stands for "House Holds". Link

The number of gun deaths increases exponentially with the number of households with guns. Can't say much more than that.

And by the way, my county? I was born, bred, and continue to live in the United States.

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*


houndrock
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 10:12pm


Views: 286
For one thing

I doubt that the number of deaths is irrelevant to the families who lost their children / brothers / sisters yesterday.

For another, it would be hard for 'esquey to claim moral superiority for her country over the U.S. inasmuch as she *lives* in the U.S. and it's her country too.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Apr 18 2007, 2:52pm)


'esquey
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 10:21pm


Views: 307
In response to your comment about the killer rampaging without a gun


In Reply To
not their guns. Guns are inanimate objects. The point was that there was not a proper response to the situation. If there had been, it's more likely that the *police* would have used their guns to stop they killer.

Also, that the killer wouldn't have gone on a rampage without a gun is pure conjecture. He could have just as easily walked around stabbing people, or driven around in his car and run over people. Crazy people do crazy things. If he hadn't had access to a gun, it is possible, and likely, that he would have chosen another way to kill people.


Yes, the killer would have killed with or without a gun, but what of the death count? Do you really think he would have killed 30 people if he had a knife in his hand? Or if he had run over people one by one? Having to approach an individual in their face with a knife or bulky car would have killed so many less.

Guns are the tool of cowards, and those that support them are blind to this.

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 10:21pm


Views: 301
okay... suffiently calmed

first, because knowing you have some direct knowledge means you don't have some odd romantic or paranoid notion about either gangs or police.

next, because I missed the 'certain perverse way'. (That will teach me to open up a thread I know I will have emotional reactions about)

I worked in an inner city school and I was devoted to those kids. And I grew up in a situation not as depressed and oppressed... but my family was about the only one not on welfare in my neighborhood and school chums weren't allowed sleepovers because other parents thought it was unsafe. So, I don't take well to people having romantic notions about things when they have no clue what it means to live that life.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




RosieLass
Valinor


Apr 17 2007, 10:29pm


Views: 332
I apologize to 'esquey.

I was confused by her comment that at least she could say that her government didn't give the killer the right to carry his gun that he killed people with.

However, I stand by my assertion that any number of violent deaths, by whatever means, is wrong and should be of equal concern to all law-abiding citizens.

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

--Eeyore

http://mallika.vox.com/


'esquey
The Shire


Apr 17 2007, 10:30pm


Views: 352
And regarding my country...


In Reply To
But at least I can rest assured that my government didn't give a mad man the constitutional right to bear arms and kill 30 innocent college students.

And if every one of those students was armed with a gun, do you really think it would have resulted in a lower death count? If anything, it may have increased it in the chaos.


I realize now that you misread this post and inferred that I lived in another country. When I said "at least I can rest assured that my gov't didn't give a mad man the constitutional right to bear arms and kill 30 innocent college students"...I said that with regards to the hypothetical situation of the U.S. banning guns.

If they were to do so--I would rest easy knowing my government did nothing to legally help the killer arm himself.

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 11:06pm


Views: 289
"VT" is correct.

It used to be "VPI," but the university now uses "VT." (That's how the name is abbreviated in documents I've edited for the university.)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 11:08pm


Views: 286
Well

I worked in an inner city school and I was devoted to those kids.

Thanks. I went to high school in South Oak Cliff in Dallas, which wasn't a very nice place. I'll always be grateful to those teachers who cared.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 17 2007, 11:20pm


Views: 275
Guns make it easier to kill people.

Would you concede that point?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Detail from earliest version of Thror's MapTolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.

Apr. 16-22: Tolkien's patterns, devices and calligraphy.


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 11:28pm


Views: 287
Not really.


In Reply To
However, the 2nd Amendment is no only intended for militias. That is a recent interpretation come up with by gun control advocates.


In fact, the idea that this is a "recent interpretation" is spin propagated by opponents of gun control. Back in 1939, the Supreme Court ruled that the "obvious purpose" of the Second Amendment was to "assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness" of the state militias. This (rather obvious!) interpretation is supported by historical analyses of the history of the amendment and its wording, not to mention the history of militias and their role.


Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 17 2007, 11:37pm


Views: 294
I'm still waiting to hear

whether any of the victims were among the several VT Engineering faculty members with whom I am working on a federal grant proposal (due in a couple of weeks). The one VT contact I've heard from said, when I asked if everyone was all right, that he couldn't tell me anything yet "out of respect for family members." I decided it would not be appropriate for me to start phoning or e-mailing people to find out if they were all right, so I'm just holding my breath until my contact is able to give me more information, or until others get in touch. All I know is that the project is going forward, as I was asked to provide an update on the status of each proposal section. So I guess that is reassuring.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 11:51pm


Views: 294
Depends

Firearms are very noisy and with that first shot you've kind of warned everybody in the neighborhood what's going on. Kniives can be very effective in mass murder. Look up the term "running amuck": A lot more than 33 people have been killed at a time that way. People can kill lots more people *without* using guns. Julio Gonzalez killed 87 people with just a dollar's worth of gasoline. Timothy McVeigh killed 168 with fertilizer, and the 9/11 hijackers killed 2973 with 4 planes full of jet fuel. No guns.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 17 2007, 11:57pm


Views: 270
Well

That is indeed considerate. I'll join you in praying for their safety.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 18 2007, 1:02am


Views: 322
I worked with K-2

and, although I was ready to move to a different phase of my life, it was enormously hard to leave the kids... which I needed to do because various governments decided too much money was being wasted by the school systems and my position was eliminated. The last day of school, I put my purse on my shoulder, did my bus duty and walked to my car. I never went back into the building again.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Aerin
Grey Havens


Apr 18 2007, 4:36am


Views: 332
Whew!

I just heard that all the people I've been working with are unharmed, though of course shaken and grieved by the loss of colleagues and students. What a horrific event.


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 6:24am


Views: 347
psst, 'esquey

Nice to see you back on these boards. I remember you liking Linkin Park, you went to see them in concert, right? Just wanted to draw your attention to my thread a few threads down that has a link to the video of their latest single "What I've done" if you haven't seen it yet. It's eerily fitting to the topic on this thread and really good I think. Would love to hear what you think.
Cheers,
linkie

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Apr 18 2007, 6:24am


Views: 294
Thanks for the update.

Glad to hear your companions are well after this horror.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Detail from earliest version of Thror's MapTolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.

Apr. 16-22: Tolkien's patterns, devices and calligraphy.


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 7:47am


Views: 306
Wow!

You speak a lot of sense in your post, but this in particular really caught my eye.


In Reply To
When one has a hammer in one's hand, every problem looks like a nail. When one has a gun in one's possession, it's too easy to see it as a solution to a problem. There are too many stressed out idiots walking this earth. I don't trust them to understand how most problems are inappropriate to solve with guns.


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 7:56am


Views: 299
I don't understand

How would allowing people to carry legal guns secretly on a campus have any bearing on someone carrying illegal guns onto a campus? It's ridiculous. Gun control works and there's no two ways about it. The laws in the US are based on a Constitution written when vast tracts of the country were unexplored and unpoliced, meaning people would have to defend themselves. I really can't think of a situation where owning a gun would make any sense in the modern world. If the police do their job properly there's no need for the general populace to own guns. Legally owned guns make it easier for criminals to have access to them, not more difficult, it just leads to more proliferation, and more incidents like this, where a misguided soul who cracks has easy access to guns.

Guns kill people. It's not ok to kill people. So why on earth do people want to own a gun?

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 8:32am


Views: 306
You're right

And I don't want to offend. It's a little difficult to be objective about this, especially when you have very strong opinions on as (as I do). But to just put forth a comparison, it's diffcult to find the exact same statistic, but gun crime in the UK only accounts for 0.5% of all crime, and 66% of murders in US are due to gunshot wounds.

And as for legal vs illegal weapons

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
  • a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
  • a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
  • family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

Massacres and Legally-Held Firearms
Worldwide, the majority of recent shooting massacres have been committed with legally-held weapons.
and a comparison
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Unintentional
USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)
Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)
Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -
Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -
England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)
Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)
* Homicide & attempted homicide by handgun
Data collected by Philip Alpers, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and HELP Network
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

a quote

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."

International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.



"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 18 2007, 12:47pm


Views: 315
It's a subject of which I know

I debated telling this story yesterday.

When I was a kid (early 60's), my dad had a pump pellet gun. Pellet guns are like BB guns. It looked like a rifle and the pellets were propelled by air compressed by pumping. He kept it handy (front porch) to shot at varmints getting at the vegetable garden. It couldn't do much more than give a good smart to the skin - unless of course you shot someone in the eye. I was a good girl. A good student. A first child who never broke rules. And I had a kitten.

My neighbor, perhaps a few years younger than me was a sullen, bully. He wasn't ever physical in his bully tendencies... just unpleasant and argumentative and socially inappropriate. No one liked him and I think he was even banned from our yard at some point. One day, I heard his German Shepard barking and went out to find he was siccing his dog on my kitten. The cat had climbed up the side of the house and the dog was lunging at it and the kid was laughing and egging the dog on. My parents were gone and I didn't know what to do. And there was the gun. I picked it up, I went outside and I pointed it at him and I said, "Get your dog away from my cat." I remember looking past him at his parents who were just standing there watching us. He reined in his dog and went home, I put the gun away and got a ladder and retrieved the cat and waited for my parents to come home. When they did I told my dad and he just said, "Never do that again." It's a testament to the time and the place that I was never reported to the police. I don't know if the kid's parents knew it was a pellet gun or just hoped that, if it were a real rifle that it wasn't loaded. Perhaps they even thought the kid deserved it. I lived in a kind of rough neighborhood and kids weren't coddled.

But I have pondered, and I hope you all ponder, how this might have played out differently if that had been a real, loaded gun, not meant for shooting squirrels but meant to protect the family from who knows what perceived, speculative dangers. I said, "
There are too many stressed out idiots walking this earth. I don't trust them to understand how most problems are inappropriate to solve with guns." and wanted to say I wasn't a stressed out idiot. But I was. I had a problem and I looked around for a solution and the gun was there... so I used it. That has stayed with me for 40 years.

A Magpie's Nest Soundtrack Site has been updated with new lyric information for TTT.




Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 18 2007, 12:52pm


Views: 327
Very well said, Tintalle

I was also once in favor of banning guns, and I also have a son who is a gun collector. Thank God he's never had occasion to use a gun.

When I was a little girl I loved playing with toy guns. I changed my mind on June 6, 1968, when I was 11. I became an advocate for gun control. But I've done a lot of thinking since then. A few years ago I heard a lecture by a Japanese-American man who was in an internment camp here during WWII. He said the first thing that happened was the Japanese-Americans were told to surrender their guns, and being good Americans, they did as they were told.

Like, you, I get queasy when my son brings his latest gun to show us. But I don't necessarily think government bans are the answer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 1:01pm


Views: 298
Thanks for the story

It shows the dangers inherent in any sort of gun (and of course your good morals).

I remember being in the park aged about ten or so. I was shot in the bum by a pellet gun (from a long way away) by a group of kids who I didn't know. It bloody hurt through my jeans I can still remember it. My grandad had a air rifle he used to shoot rabbits with (he rarely hit them) and it was locked away. I was always scared of it and he taught me to respect it.

Guns are there and are made with the sole intention of harming or killing other living things. This is why I hate them, and I can't understand why anyone would want to own one.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 1:38pm


Views: 308
Well, well. . .

That is a good idea.

Pump shotguns would work real well, too. The sound of one being pumped is loud and unmistakeable, especially in a quiet house.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


'esquey
The Shire


Apr 18 2007, 2:05pm


Views: 329
Orr..

the perpetrator could have a gun on him and fire back assuming you were trying to kill him. Again, violence (or pretend violence) does not reduce the chances of deaths.

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*


'esquey
The Shire


Apr 18 2007, 2:06pm


Views: 285
Thanks so much!

I'll certainly have to check it out! I'm excited--this must mean a new CD is on it's way!

*Formerly known as Frodo-esque*


Advising Elf
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 2:56pm


Views: 323
A comment about rights in general. . .

The surest way to lose a right is to abuse it.

Even though it's obvious from my previous posts that I'm against gun control (at least what might be called "draconian" gun control) I agree that this right is abused here in the U.S. Our right to freedom of speech is also abused (e.g. pornography). People are afraid of losing a "right" completely, so they put up with all kinds of abuse of it.

Unfortunately, our Constitution didn't have a Bill of Responsibilities to go along with it's Bill of Rights.

Yahoo!Group with good stuff to download:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LOTRgoodies/


Aerlinn
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 3:00pm


Views: 334
That's

A little offensive in its pontificating tone.

I'm not a 42-year-old American, but a 37-year-old American. And: Here in Connecticut, I have never had any fear of being shot while at work, out shopping, on a bus or train, in a supermarket or just walking down the street. No one I know has or wishes to own a gun. No one I know has been the victim of gun crime. No one I know has been in a situation where their life has been in danger because of the easy availability of guns. I have never seen a gun or held one.

I have a dear friend living in New York City who could say much the same. You're making broad judgements based on flawed and biased information.

I've never been afraid of being bombed in a train station. Can a 42 year-old Brit say the same?

'I cannot read the furry letters,' said Frodo in a quavering voice.
'No,' said Gandalf, 'but I can.'

'One Ring to drool on them all, One Ring to heed them
One Ring to bring them all and remind them all to feed them
In the land of Kitchen where the litter lies.
'

697.08


(This post was edited by Altaira on Apr 18 2007, 4:05pm)


Aerlinn
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 3:12pm


Views: 362
Such as, perhaps

Sweeping statments about the worthlessness and depravity of the entirety of American culture which would always be offensive and inaccurate and are even more so right now in the midst of national mourning? Yes. Indeed.

Maybe I didn't miss TORn so much after all when I couldn't get here.

'I cannot read the furry letters,' said Frodo in a quavering voice.
'No,' said Gandalf, 'but I can.'

'One Ring to drool on them all, One Ring to heed them
One Ring to bring them all and remind them all to feed them
In the land of Kitchen where the litter lies.
'

697.08


(This post was edited by Aerlinn on Apr 18 2007, 3:14pm)


L. Ron Halfelven
Grey Havens


Apr 18 2007, 3:18pm


Views: 333
It missed you even if you didn't miss it!

But I agree with what you say. I'd be in favor of making it board policy to treat national aspersions on par with personal aspersions.


Fight for us! And regain your honor, learn valuable technical skills, and qualify for up to four years' college tuition! What say you?


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 3:24pm


Views: 267
I totally agree with you /nt

 

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


Aragorn'sSexyScar
Rohan

Apr 18 2007, 3:31pm


Views: 769
Yes, but the threat is there!

 
30,000 people were killed by handguns in the US last year.You can correct me if I'm wrongabout the figure.I think about 150 people were killed last year through guns---but nobody in this country can walk into a store and walk out with an object specifically designed to take a life. The fact that guns are so easily available in the US means that any disturbed individual is capable of arming him/herself to the teeth and there isn't much that anyone can do.Wouldn't you like to live in a soceity where that threat is just not at the back of one's mind? Do you really need to have the option of buying one gun per month?!

At work I am often quizzed on what's going on in America because I've travelled the country many times---but not one person has mentioned the Virginia shooting.Not one.There will be another shooting in the future and that's one of the saddest aspects of this tragedy.How many more deaths will it take before people change their attitude about guns?

Well, I never think that I will be blown up when I'm on a train or a bus.That was a reaction to the *wonderful* policies of the US & UK governments .I've went to London in January and never even thought that I would be a victim of terrorrism---or a random shooting.

I want all Americans to be able to live long lives but until the gun laws are stricter then such incidents as happened at Virginia Tech will occur again.


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 3:34pm


Views: 282
Hear, hear!

I haven't finished reading all of the posts, yet, but as far as VT goes, a person that sick and far gone is going to find a way to do what he wants no matter what laws we have in place. It's a horrible, inconceivable tragedy that we will never make sense of, but we shouldn't go off the deep end about it. I can't even imagine what people who are closer to the situation are feeling right now, but even the students there are looking for some semblance of "normalcy," and I think that they are right. I bought a book called September 12th that was written by a classroom of students and it talks about how the sun still came up, etc. after 9/11. We take back some of our power when we don't let senseless violence like this rule how we live our lives.

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 3:39pm


Views: 273
I had a friend who attended years ago

and he has a sweatshirt that says "VT" on it. I don't know if it's new or not, (refering to VPI), but that's what it says.

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 3:41pm


Views: 264
I agree with you on both points, L. Ron. //

 

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 3:43pm


Views: 275
It's nice to hear some good news.

This is going to haunt them for a long time and they are in my thoughts and prayers.

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 18 2007, 3:45pm


Views: 289
Well

First, burglars don’t like noise. If he’s a burglar he’s going to run at the first sound of any loud noise.

Second, burglars will usually not be carrying weapons. They know the difference between burglary and armed robbery. (About 20 years.)

Three, the louder the noise you make the more likely help will come.

Fourth, if a guy is in your house in the middle of the night with a gun out he’s there to hurt you anyway. If he thinks you’re alert and armed he’s going to back off.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Owlyross
Rohan


Apr 18 2007, 3:45pm


Views: 301
157 people died in bomb blasts in Iraq today

with more than 90 injured. I don't know if this puts yesterday's news in perspective.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 6:49pm


Views: 334
The sad thing about this situation

is that the fellow didn't have to look far to find the way to murder.It was handed over to him without question over a counter, probably at a two for one discount. And it seems that this was a fellow for whom all the warning signs were blinking furiously. Stricter gun laws, say requiring a mental health check, may have disqualified him from pruchasing a gun.
That's the gist of what we are mostly debating, the relative ease of pruchasing handguns and the consequences of that.
It is a horrible tragedy, but inconceivable and senseless I would dispute. Stuff like this happens all too frequently and it makes pefect sense to the mind of the murderers. From the information in the papers about the killer it is only too obvious that this was not a normal guy who inexplicably went off the deep end. His mental disturbance was noticed and a big concern to those around him. Unfortunately they couldn't prevent him from going out and buying two handguns.
Can you say some more about how that book suggests taking back power over our lives after violent crime? I don't think noticing the sun coming up is enough. I think trying to understand and address the causes of violence is important in dealing with it. And building strong sense of community with others is essential to our mental health and peaceful coexistence.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 7:53pm


Views: 310
In response...

I agree that it is too easy to get handguns. My point was that he sounds disturbed enough that he would have found a way to wreak this havoc no matter what. Yes, it could have and should have been made harder, but I think he would have found a way anyway.

I also understand that there were warning signs all over the place, but hindsight is 20/20. I am trying not to judge because I wasn't in their shoes. My hope is that the people involved did the best they could with the information they had. I have to believe that.

Lastly, the book is called September 12th, We Knew Everything Would be All Right. It is a book written and illustrated by a class of first-graders in Kennett, Missouri in response to 9/11. It is a children's book that I bought because I have three children of my own, (well, two at that time!). It begins, "On September 11, 2001, many bad things happened." It goes on to say, "September 12th was a new day. We knew everything would be all right. Because...the sun came up and the birds started to sing again. We came to school the same way. We knew everything would be all right when we saw our teacher smiling at the door. We said the pledge like always. We sang the National Antehm very loudly." Other quotes: "On September 12th, our parents still tucked us in our warm, safe beds... Our parents talked to us about the bad things that had happened the day before... We knew everything would be all right because the stars and moon came out and America went to sleep. And the next morening the sun came up again..."

I am not someone who actually knows anyone involved with the tragedy at Virginia Tech. I don't pretend to know how they feel or what they are going through. I am dealing with this as a person on the outside. I do know that I have a job to do as a parent to help myself and my children understand that tragedy isn't a way of life; it is a part of life that we have to work through. I will tuck them in tonight with hugs and kisses and the sun will come up again tomorrow. Sometimes the sun coming up is enough. Maybe it's just the perspective of a parent with young children, but that's how I feel. Otherwise I don't know how we would get through the day with all of the horrible things that are happening in the world.

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 18 2007, 8:07pm


Views: 335
Applause!

My point, and maybe partly yours too, is that we get so panicked by horrible stuff like this that we can ruin our lives worrying about threats that are statistically unlikely. I read an article in Psychology Today many years ago about a study that was done on how people perceive danger compared to how big the danger really is. It struck me that the same mom who might go running after a schoolbus to get her son's lunch back because the apple might have Alar on it (remember that?) might also not bother to fasten her seatbelt.

The morning after Columbine, which happened not too far from where I live, I had to send my two kids off to high school. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. But I reminded myself that the biggest danger they were in was during the drive there, and I'd trained myself not to freak out over that. Like I said, you fasten your seatbelt and drive carefully, and head out to school. What else can you do, except cower at home?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 8:23pm


Views: 314
I was thinking about that as I watched the news today and

it was the third or fourth story. There is no easy answer. I guess it just feels more "real" to people when it happens closer to home.

Kinda OT, but I was also thinking about Iraq and Afghanistan when Imus was the top news story all over the U.S. last week. Yes, it was news and hopefully started some productive discussion, but the top story? We seem to have difficulty keeping our eye on the ball sometimes, imho.

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 8:32pm


Views: 295
I am like you, on the outside looking in

Thank goodness!
I wasn't judging the responses of those around him, just commenting on how they were probably hamstrung in their ability to prevent that specific violence by the gun laws present there.
I agree that's it's important to reassure our kids and ourselves that violence doesn't rule our world, mostly, but I don't see reassurance as enough of a response, especially when the violence strikes close to home.
I also agree that if we dwell on all the possible dangers out there we become incapable of living our lives. Sometimes blinkers help, as long as they're not fixed on.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 8:32pm


Views: 310
That's where I'm coming from.

I often tell my mom that I could easily become agoraphobic if I allowed myself to give in to all of the horrible things that can and do happen in the world. I can get everything I "need" on the Internet and never leave my house! I'm a certified teacher, for that matter, and my kids wouldn't have to leave, either!

That, however, is not the way I want to live my life or have my children live theirs. I want to live life smart, not scared. I feel that I owe it to my kids to be real, but not to terrify them. My mother, (a very wise woman), always said that as a parent she wanted to give us roots and wings. I think the roots are the easy part; the wings are much more difficult.

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 8:47pm


Views: 298
That's part of the reason I qualified my response.

If we were somehow directly involved, I would handle it differently, probably including professional counseling for my kids. As it stands, my goal now is to reassure them, (well, just my oldest, really), that they are safe.

I think somewhere in this post AE and/or Darkstone made the point that the quickest way to lose a right is to abuse it. AE also wrote that it's too bad we didn't have a Bill of Responsibility to go along with our Bill of Rights, and I think that sentiment is well put. I would definitely support tougher gun laws, but not necessarily eliminating the right to own a gun. Please understand that this is coming from someone who abhors guns and won't let my children play at someone's house if they own one. It's just that for me, particularly after the Patriot Act, I'm leary of making too many changes to our Constitutional rights. We have already given up more than most people are aware of.

I don't have an answer. I do have prayer, though, and my thoughts and prayers are with all people dealing with loss in their lives, regardless of the cause.

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 18 2007, 8:52pm


Views: 303
The Prince of Pompadoodle

The immortal Walt Kelly said it best:

THE PRINCE OF POMPADOODLE

The Prince of Pompadoodle
Lived behind a castle wall,
Behind a moat, behind a guard
Of twenty soldiers tall.

The Prince of Pompadoodle
Was the safest man alive.
Each day he wrote how long he'd lived
And multiplied by five.

The Prince of Pompadoodle
Would survive, he did decide,
Five times as long as he had been
Alive before he died.

The Prince of Pompadoodle
Called in the castle sage
For his advice in this pursuit
Of long and fulsome age.

The Prince of Pompadoodle
Heard in horror from this friend
That somewhere in the palace
Was a cur who'd seek his end!

The Prince of Pompadoodle
Scarce could credit a belief
His years might soon be sneaked away
By some ungrateful thief.

The Prince of Pompadoodle
Sent his every friend away
And sat alone, safe, locked alive,
To count another day.

The Prince of Pompadoodle
May hoard each empty hour,
But none can know; no word comes from
The silent stony tower.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 8:54pm


Views: 298
Yes and no

Honestly I think it's in how close to home the violence strikes. The closer the more frightening it is. Many, many people die everyday from one thing or another; it's not the numbers that matter so much as the way they die and how directly you and your country are involved.
The tragedy of the war in Iraq is so immense and so politically fused that I wouldn't even want to begin a discussion on it here. But the tragedy in Virginia I can discuss because it affects me a little more personally: a Canadian was killed, my kids are either in university or will be soon and I have worked with the mentally ill and know a little of the alienationa and mental pain they live with.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 8:59pm


Views: 305
I like that expression - roots and wings

yes, a very wise mother indeed.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 18 2007, 9:05pm


Views: 324
One way to get guns out of the hands of teenagers....

....is to bring them home from Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, etc.

I met a Balrog on the stair
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 9:18pm


Views: 280
Perfect!

That was new to me. Thank you!

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 18 2007, 9:20pm


Views: 289
Totally OT,

but did you draw your avatar? I think you had a different one before, but it was similar. I like the style...

(Formerly Lossefalme3, just in case you're wondering)*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Aragorn threw back his cloak. The elven-sheath glittered as he grasped it, and the bright blade of Andúril shone like a sudden flame as he swept it out. 'Elendil!' he cried. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son of Gondor. Here is the Sword that was Broken and is forged again! Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!' TTT, Book III, Chapter 2
And Éomer answered: 'Since the day when you rose before me out of the green grass of the downs I have loved you, and that love shall not fail.' RotK, Book VI, Chapter 5




linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 18 2007, 9:57pm


Views: 281
No, can't claim it as mine

It's from a Japanese program that I used a long time ago, one of those you just choose all the features to make a composite that best fits you. Don't have the link or name anymore unfortunately.It was something like tinypic.com.
and yes, this is the same avatar I've always used. Probably could use a freshening up, my hair's much longer now.
I've thought about doing a self-portrait in a woodblock or linocut to use on the web but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


Shadowfaxfan
Rivendell


Apr 19 2007, 5:15am


Views: 261
I am glad the people you

were concerned about are okay.


Look for your friends, but do not trust to hope,
it has forsaken these lands. Eomer to Aragorn~TT~Film

(This post was edited by Shadowfaxfan on Apr 19 2007, 5:16am)


DownfallenWest
The Shire


Apr 19 2007, 3:44pm


Views: 270
Not so sure.

About that, that is. I live in a country where speech is indeed somewhat regulated by the state. Off the top of my head, I can cite only a couple of examples: It's illegal to flip someone the bird whilst driving. It's illegal to display (or even possess at home?) Nazi propaganda, give the Hitler salute, say "heil Hitler", or do any number of things associated with Naziism. I think it's also illegal to "ridicule a religion or religious belief", to some extent or another, but I'm not totally sure about this.

Pornography OTOH, FWICT, is perhaps just as un-restricted here as in the US. Certainly nudity and sex are more prevalant on TV and "in the media" here than in the US. Don't know how the rate of sexual crimes (rape, child pr0n, etc.) compare between the two countries, but I'd be mighty surprised if it's higher here. I don't consider pr0nography to be any more an abuse of "free speech" than a book about people killing each other is.

Do I have a point? I thought I did when I began to post, but......eh, I'm about as pro-free-speech as one could be. I find it ironic that I now live--gladly--in a place where my speech is relatively more restricted than where I grew up, but that it doesn't bother me--that I don't feel torn about it.

What would Samwise do?


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 19 2007, 4:16pm


Views: 252
oh.... lovely

you are missed.


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


elvenhobbit
Rohan

Apr 19 2007, 8:09pm


Views: 250
I've seen the news and...

I'm disgusted at this - what I can only describle as sickening act of horrific consequence...and my heart and thoughts are with the families of those killed.

-e_H-

Elven by name, Hobbit by nature

'Road lead ever on and on
down from the door where it began
now far ahead the road has gone
down from where all began' -FOTR-

and through all the world has changed
the ages come and go with time
and yet those remain unchanged
unto they journey westward
over the sea...


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 20 2007, 10:52am


Views: 260
My only response: Prayers and heart-felt sympathy to Virginia Tech Students, Families, and Staff and

a prayer for peace in Iraq and for all the pains suffered throughout the world. That's all.


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 20 2007, 3:23pm


Views: 229
Hear, hear, gramma

And, very well said, indeed. Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"All we have to decide is what to do with the boards that are given to us"



"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase

TORn Calendar


Rivendweller
Lorien


Apr 20 2007, 3:51pm


Views: 247
The film " Bobby" captures so much of todays grief, then and now...

I watched " Bobby " last night with my daughter. We were both crying at the end.She, because of the state of the world today and these horrific events, me - because we did not listen then and we still are not listening now.

I quote for those who may be interested, portions of Robert F. Kennedy's speeches that remain true today..they bear repeating I feel.

"But we have to make an effort in the United States, we have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond, or go beyond these rather difficult times.

My favorite poem, my favorite poet was Aeschylus. And he once wrote:

"Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget
falls drop by drop upon the heart,
until, in our own despair,
against our will,comes wisdom
through the awful grace of God."

What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness, but is love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country,..."



This portion from a history blog:

"Kennedy was in the middle of his final, ill-fated campaign and prepared to go into the most dangerous part of Indianapolis. Just before heading to the event, his press secretary got the word that King had been shot dead by a white man.

Immediately, staff members scrambled to cancel the event. Ghettos were sure to explode in violence across Indianapolis and America. But when Kennedy chose to ignore the warnings, the Indianapolis Chief of Police weighed in.

His men could not provide protection. It was simply too dangerous.

So Bobby Kennedy went in alone that night to deliver the greatest speech of his life.

He told that broken crowd of Americans how it was not the time to embrace violence but rather to live the very values for which Martin Luther King had died.

Later that evening, riots did break out in over a thousand cities and towns across America. Parts of New York, Los Angeles and Chicago burned long into the early morning. Countless other cities and towns were engulfed in violence and rage. But that night, Indianapolis went to sleep in peace.

It was the story of how one man made a difference.

It is a reminder of how one person can still
bend history.

It is a challenge sent through the ages of how we can still save a dying world."



And finally...his words regarding Viet Nam ring as true as ever concerning Irag:

"I do not want--as I believe most Americans do not want--to sell out American interests, to simply withdraw, to raise the white flag of surrender. That would be unacceptable to us as a country and as a people. But I am concerned--as I believe most Americans are concerned--that the course we are following at the present time is deeply wrong. I am concerned--as I believe most Americans are concerned--that we are acting as if no other nations existed, against the judgment and desires of neutrals and our historic allies alike. I am concerned--as I believe most Americans are concerned--that our present course will not bring victory; will not bring peace; will not stop the bloodshed; and will not advance the interests of the United States or the cause of peace in the world. I am concerned that, at the end of it all, there will only be more Americans killed; more of our treasure spilled out; and because of the bitterness and hatred on every side of this war, more hundreds of thousands of [civilians] slaughtered; so they may say, as Tacitus said of Rome: "They made a desert, and called it peace." . . .






Whether because Frodo was so worn by his long pains, wound of knife, and venomous sting, and sorrow, fear, and homeless wandering, or because some gift of final strength was given to him, Sam lifted Frodo with no more difficulty than if he were carrying a hobbit child pig-a-back....
Frodo opened his eyes and drew a breath....'Thank you, Sam,' he said in a cracked whisper. 'How far is there to go?' --RotK, "Mount Doom"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Formerly A'amel from days gone by.


linkin-artelf
Lorien


Apr 20 2007, 9:47pm


Views: 235
Mods way up.

As they said in the special features, Robert kennedy's assassination was like pulling the rug out from under a generation. Sadly, the world is still standing on cold cement.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
"I walk along the shore and I gaze
At the light that radiates down
Will it travel forth to you
Far across this shimmering sea?"
formerly linkinparkelf


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Apr 21 2007, 11:34am


Views: 210
This, this is what is needed

 for healing our poor world.
That kind of courage to speak up and tell the deeper truth of things.
I haven't seen 'Bobby' yet, and I wonder if any of it will be seen in the theatres outhere in India, but at least thanks to you, dear Rivendweller, I have been given a taste of what is in it, what has been in the life of Bobby Kennedy - whom I confess I have never known much about, as a young French person not very aware yet at the time of all the terrible things going on in the world, nor of the heroes that were there among us human beings, putting their life on the line to bring some more wisdom and peace into our lives.
Thank you deeply for sharing these beautiful words of truth.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Apr 21 2007, 11:45am


Views: 213
*tearing* This is wonderful... thank you //

 


sample sample
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!

"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."


TORn's Observations Lists


Lossefalme
Gondor


Apr 21 2007, 1:25pm


Views: 205
Wow. Thank you so much. His words are as true today as they were then. //

 

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Join us every Thursday in the Movie Discussion Forum for GOLD Nuggets, an exploration of the Geeky Observation Lists maintained by our very own grammaboodawg.



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 21 2007, 6:31pm


Views: 110
Thanks, Gramma.

As usual, you see the essential. Bless you.

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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Apr 21 2007, 6:35pm


Views: 126
Thank you, Rivendweller.

I will never forget June 5, 1968. I was eleven. I went to bed a little kid and woke up with the beginnings of being an adult stirring in me. It was such a sad time. I too found the movie very profoundly moving. And timely.

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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~