The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Frodo's dream at Crickhollow



peez
The Shire

Apr 9 2009, 6:16am


Views: 1338
Frodo's dream at Crickhollow

"Eventually he fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.
Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder."



-The last two paragraphs of The Conspiracy Unmasked in FoTR

Can anybody elaborate where he was during both of the locations in his dream? For some reason I'm stumped and I was thinking Minas Tirith, Pelargir or the Undying Lands.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 9 2009, 8:02am


Views: 1105
Possibly Mithlond

(the Elvish name for the Grey Havens). At least, the tower and the sea sound like that.

Here is a link to a prior discussion of this dream. No one has any obvious answers, but there's some interesting background.

One of the wonderful things about Tolkien is that it's rarely possible to fully analyze many of his images. They suggest things in your mind, but don't have easy identifications beyond that.





The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price

Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 9 2009, 11:02am


Views: 1082
The first part could be the Old Forest.

What comes to Frodo's mind as he dreams are, I judge, the Black Riders, sniffing for the Ring, but this part of the dream may actually foreshadow the hobbits' adventures in the Old Forest, and their stay in Bombadil's house, where Bombadil tells them to "heed no nightly noises."

I've always thought the second part of the dream takes place in the Tower Hills, where Elendil's palantir is located, the palantir that looks towards Elvenhome in the Undying Lands. That's where Gildor's people had been before they caught up with the hobbits. This part of the dream seems to foreshadow Frodo's own journey to Elvenhome at the end of the tale.

What is the purpose of such vague, prophetic dreams? I've always thought they are there to hint that what happens is a part of a Plan, and that Higher Powers are involved. They don't work well as guides for action -- the Witch-king learned the folly of relying too heavily on prophecies (no man can kill ...), and if Sam had followed his vision in Galadriel's mirror he would have abandoned Frodo. But they do hint that, as Gandalf said, Someone wanted the Ring to come to Frodo, Someone other than Sauron or the Ring, and that should be a comforting thought.


(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 9 2009, 11:10am)


peez
The Shire

Apr 9 2009, 2:06pm


Views: 1025
M

Yeah I figured it was Mithlond, or one of the towers in the Tower Hills, foreshadowing his journey to Valinor. Because Tolkien loved to foreshadow :)


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 9 2009, 3:21pm


Views: 1017
He loved to foreshadow in LotR.

I'm not noticing it as much in The Hobbit.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 9 2009, 3:39pm


Views: 1020
I think his foreshadowing in The Hobbit

was confined to that story, which makes sense because at the time it was written, Tolkien did not intend it to be continued anywhere else.

But I see some foreshadowing in The Hobbit. I don't want to jump ahead in the discussion, but the moment when Bilbo finds the Ring, Tolkien drops a giant hint that Bilbo was at a turning point in his life. There's also the moment at the end of the spider battle that the dwarves begin to look to Bilbo for answers - foreshadowing his leadership at the Lonely Mountain.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 9 2009, 4:59pm


Views: 1016
It's a matter of degree.

After all, Gandalf's pronouncement that Bilbo will be a Burglar is foreshadowing. Balin's comment that they might have to go under the Misty Mountains is foreshadowing. It's there, if you look for it. But I don't think there is as much foreshadowing in The Hobbit as in LotR.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 9 2009, 6:09pm


Views: 1045
Interesting...

There's only one tower that I know if in Mirkwood, and no other towers in spooky forests elsewhere in Middle Earth. From a dreamworker's point of view, that's a sinister development, that our hobbit should find himself elevated in the Necromancer's tower! Yet he isn't on the side of what sniffs for him. At the last minute the sound of the wind in the trees shifts to the sound of the sea, he finds himself free of the sinister woods and with his feet back firmly on the ground, facing another tower that looks out in hope to the west. He wants to climb that tower, but a storm intervenes...

It's a curious thing to study the dream of a fictional character, but when a writer truly taps into something profound inside himself and beyond himself, it works.

As Frodo's dream? It seems to me that it warns that the journey ahead of him would tempt him to a sinister elevation, to in effect become a new Dark Lord--though he would not find safety in such a position. But listening to the call of the sea can ultimately save him, turning his focus back to the West. He will have to get his feet back on the ground again in order to seek a different, better elevation. But he must survive a storm first...

Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!

(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Apr 9 2009, 6:10pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 9 2009, 6:37pm


Views: 1007
I don't think it is a tower in a forest.

I think it is a high window because Bombadil's house is on a hill above the Old Forest. But that's just my take on it; Tolkien certainly leaves it ambiguous.


peez
The Shire

Apr 9 2009, 10:48pm


Views: 1013
RE


In Reply To
As Frodo's dream? It seems to me that it warns that the journey ahead of him would tempt him to a sinister elevation, to in effect become a new Dark Lord--though he would not find safety in such a position. But listening to the call of the sea can ultimately save him, turning his focus back to the West. He will have to get his feet back on the ground again in order to seek a different, better elevation. But he must survive a storm first...



sador
Half-elven

Apr 16 2009, 9:56am


Views: 995
In Appendix A

When discussing the heirlooms of the Northren Kingdom, the palantir in Elostirion is mentioned in a footnote. And in brackets, Tolkien references two places - one is Sam's words to Ted Sandyman in 'The Shadow of the Past', about the elves leaving Middle-Earth, and the other is Frodo's dream at Crickhollow. So I think the second location is the Tower in the Far Downs.

About the first location - it's a matter of guessing, of course; I do not think a clear answer is available, as usual with dreams. But it reminds me of the first night on the flet in Lothlorien.

"In fact I should like to know all about you. Not that it will do you much good" - the Great Goblin


peez
The Shire

Apr 17 2009, 5:06am


Views: 1070
RE

Hey ya, that sounds about right. Awesome catch Sador.