The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room: ***Merry discussion of growth in Return of the King* A New Kind of Courage"***

The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
***Merry discussion of growth in Return of the King* A New Kind of Courage"***

elentari3018
Nargothrond

Mar 1, 4:45am

Views: 8605

**Merry discussion of growth in Return of the King A New Kind of Courage"***

Sorry this is so late. RL really got me in a whirl. Well I'm back.
Hope that this can get discussion going with Merry.
Merrily we roll along!

Merry discussion of growth in Return of the King* A New Kind of Courage

To state that Merry had grown is an understatement. Even in Two Towers, we had seen him deal with the orcs, get through the battle at Isengard and still be able to adapt pretty well with Pippin by his side.

Now things have changed in Return of the King, where we see him sundered by Pippin. For the first time, we do not see them together. How does Merry fare without his best friend? How does he fare without Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli when they chose to go to the Paths of the Dead?

Being Left Behind

One of the most interesting things I love to read about is the fact that Merry was left behind from the Fellowship and he kept on mentioning that he did not want to be left behind.

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”Don’t leave me behind! I have not been of much use yet; but I don’t want to be laid aside, like baggage to be called for when all is over. “

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All the same he had been lonely, and never more so than now at the day’s end. He wondered where in all this strange world PIppin had got to; and what would become of Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli. Then suddenly like a cold touch on his heart he thought of Frodo and Sam. ‘I am forgetting them!’ he said to himself reproachfully. ‘And yet they are more important than all the rest of us. And I came to help them; but now they must be hundreds of miles away, if they are still alive.” He shivered.”

I bring this quote up because it’s the first time Tolkien mentioned the characters thinking about other characters. Sam did so at the beginning of Book 6, Tower of Cirith Ungol, but i like to touch on this passage because Merry’s thoughts are on everyone. We do not have any character being introspective like that. Is that part of his “left behind” feelings that we get a slice of what he is thinking and missing of the other characters. Tolkien usually leaves the narration to the one who is observing the most. Is Tolkien using Merry to observe all the other characters?

We do see him being left behind but fortunately had great company with Theoden and Eowyn. Merry was so glad that the King paid attention to him and gave him a pony that he swore service to the King. Theoden mentioned that he be his esquire and Merry “filled with love for this old man, knelt on one knee, and took his hand and kissed it.” “Receive my service if you will”

We read that Pippin also swore allegiance to Denethor- why do you think Tolkien would see the importance that the hobbits align their interest in this way? How do Pippin and Merry know the importance of aligning their interests with these two great countries?

Discuss a little about Eowyn and Merry’s similarities of being left behind and the ways that we underestimate them. IN what ways have they been “left behind” and how does that affect their motivations to join the war in Gondor?

The ultimate act of courage

One of the climaxes of Return of the King is no doubt the slaying of the Witchking by Merry and Eowyn. It is a great moment where Eowyn stands up to the Nazgul

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“But no living man am I! You look upon a woman.You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.”

And Eowyn did give the last deathly blow and with MErry piercing the Nazgul’s knee and together they fought off one of the deadliest foes of Middle-earth.

This quote illustrates Merry’s change in courage because he had been so fearful up till now.

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Pity filled his heart and great wonder, and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. He clenched hi shand. SHe should not die, so fair, ans so desperate! At least she should not die alone, unaided.”

We often hear about hobbits’ courage slowly being kindled. IN what other instances in the book do we hear this? Would there be another way in which Merry would be motivated to help?
Unlike the movies, we hear Merry say the last words to King Theoden. How powerful was this moving last lines with Theoden and how did it cement the relationship that the hobbits have with Rohan?
Tolkien always writes with purpose. How fitting was it that the sword of the Dunedain which battled the North-kingdom was used to kill the Witchking here after all the years of battle that was done?

Houses of Healing

Merry in the Houses of Healing says some wise things once he is awake. I always find this quote the wisest he’s ever been.

"It is best to love first what you are fitted to love, I suppose: you must start somewhere and have some roots, and the soil of the SHire is deep. Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not. I am glad that I know about them a little." -Merry

What accounts for his change after being healed by Aragorn? What are your thoughts on this quote and what does it mean?

Merry is again left behind as Pippin gets a chance to fight at the Black Gate. He has other ways to shine as he attempts to heal Faramir and Eowyn emotionally. Some may say that he moved the ball forward with getting Faramir more interested and vice versa.

Do you think Tolkien meant for Merry to be there to heal Eowyn and Faramir especially since all three were inflicted with the Black Breath? In what ways did they heal together?

The Scouring of the Shire
The most important way in which we see Merry grow is what he did when he returned to the Shire. It was described that Merry was the real leader in making change happen and to rally the hobbits for the Battle of Bywater.

What ways did Merry help move the hobbits to action? How do you think he could do so instead of Frodo who seemed like he did not want any part to give blows to others? Why was Frodo all right to take the backseat and let Merry take charge?

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“But if there are many of these ruffians, it will certainly mean fighting. You can’t rescue Lotho, or the Shire, just by being shocked and sad, my dear Frodo.”

In what ways was Merry most suitable to organize and rally the hobbits in the stand against Saruman and the ruffians? How has his growth throughout the Quest prepared him for this moment? From his laying out his plans, to rallying the hobbits, to getting the ruffians in a trap and finally fighting off the largest ruffian, we see Merry at his best and bravest.

Later, Merry goes on to the Master of Buckland and also the authors of Herblore of the Shire and known for his Reckoning of Years in which he discusses the relation of the calendars of the Shire and Bree and those of Rivendell, Gondor and Rohan. He also wrote Old Words and Names in the Shire. He represents the Shire in the wider world along with Pippin. Do you think he may have used this Quest to flex his organizing and also leadership skills?

There is a reason why Merry and Pippin went on this Quest and also were the heirs to their respective powerful hobbit families and their wisdom and growth is very evident. What do you think of their influence and power? Is it suitable that since Frodo was too hurt from the Quest to stay that his kinsmen can continue to make sure that the Shirefolk stay relevant in the Fourth Age?

Merry also had strong bonds with Eowyn and Eomer in Rohan, Eowyn frequently sending gifts over to him. We do also hear that Merry and Pippin are buried alongside Aragorn in the future. THerefore, the Shire gets full protection from the King and of course, held in high respect in all of Middle-earth.

The influence of Merry is fairly obvious and we can see even from the beginning in “A Conspiracy Unmasked “ with him helping Frodo organize his departure from the Shire, to helping the Shire rid themselves of Saruman’s ruffians, to healing the Shire with Sam, he is one of the most important and influential hobbits. His growth and maturity is evident from being left behind from the Fellowship and needing to adapt to that, to helping Eowyn slay the Witch-king. He is eventually the Master of Buckland but also author of a lot of books and this goes to show us how “Magnificent” he really is.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo

"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series

"He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. He was a captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."- Siege of Gondor, RotK

(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Mar 1, 4:48am)

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 1, 8:16pm

Views: 8476

flying tackle hug , Elentari!

To steal a phrase from gramma. Welcome back, and thanks for leading this discussion with engaging questions and lucid perspectives on Merry.

Being Left Behind:
I appreciate you highlighting this aspect since Merry is the only one of the four hobbits to be left behind, and if you think about it, prior to this their experiences are always shared at least as a duo. Pippin is not only not left behind, he's at the center of the story by being 1) Gandalf's companion and 2) winding up in Minas Tirith at its critical hour in the great war. Where's Merry? Left behind on a pony, and then even after becoming a knight of Rohan, told to stay at home which is not his home. I don't fault Theoden for playing it safe, but Merry is no Fred Bolger who was happy to be left behind.

I'd say Merry wanted to join the action because 1) it's an epic story about heroism, so naturally he wants to show he's heroic too, 2) he's a Brandybuck, and 3) he has deep bonds of family and friendship with Frodo and Pippin.

Introspection:

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‘I am forgetting them!’ he said to himself reproachfully.

One of the things that makes LOTR feel so authentic is the basic emotional honesty present in the characters. I like this rare introspection (as you point out; many novels are far more introspective than LOTR) and it resonates as something that we all easily do: you get caught up in your life and drama and forget people you care about and their drama, until you do a course correction and remember them. Score +1 for empathy.

We read that Pippin also swore allegiance to Denethor- why do you think Tolkien would see the importance that the hobbits align their interest in this way? How do Pippin and Merry know the importance of aligning their interests with these two great countries?
To be honest, I never give either hobbit much credit for fully appreciating what they've gotten themselves into, and I think they're in over their heads. That's not a criticism and in fact amplifies their courage and decision-making. Both of them are thrust into situations for more serious than Shire life's agenda of deciding which pub to drink at that night, and they trust their instincts, which are good, and strive to do the right thing. They do get cheeky later with Frodo and Sam by saying,
"We are knights of the City and of the Mark, as I hope you observe," which shows they're well aware of their new status, but that's otherwise forgotten until the Scouring.

Discuss a little about Eowyn and Merry’s similarities of being left behind and the ways that we underestimate them. In what ways have they been “left behind” and how does that affect their motivations to join the war in Gondor?
One is a man who's too short and too inexperienced in combat, and one is a woman. What might be most underestimated about them are 1) their devotion to Theoden and 2) their courage.

The contrast in their initial courage couldn't be more profound, but we are comparing apples and oranges. Still:

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Yet one stood there still: Dernhelm the young, faithful beyond fear; and he wept, for he had loved his lord as a father. Right through the charge Merry had been borne unharmed behind him, until the Shadow came; and then Windfola had thrown them in his terror, and now ran wild upon the plain. Merry crawled on all fours like a dazed beast, and such a horror was on him that he was blind and sick.

Dernhelm/Eowyn standing, weeping, defying the Witch-king; Merry dazed and terrified. But I would argue that overcoming fear is as courageous as being non-stop brave, and Merry has to crawl out of a pit of crippling fear to be able to do anything. It speaks volumes about his values that rather than slink his way off the battlefield to save his own hide, he resolves to help Eowyn, even if it is a "cowardly" strike from behind. I've seen enough Hollywood TV & movies to know that a real hero confronts his archenemy with a frontal assault. Just watch Reacher if you want a reminder. None of this crawling behind them and stabbing them in the knee!

Could it be that--gasp!--heroism is nuanced and relative rather than absolute? Is Merry as brave as Eowyn because he did his best, what he was capable of given his limitations and the supernatural circumstances? Did Eowyn, the only witness, find him brave or tepid or cowardly? Is there more to bravery than dying like Boromir? Rhetorical questions.

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 1, 8:41pm

Views: 8474

Merry 2.0

We often hear about hobbits’ courage slowly being kindled. In what other instances in the book do we hear this? Would there be another way in which Merry would be motivated to help?
Unlike the movies, we hear Merry say the last words to King Theoden. How powerful was this moving last lines with Theoden and how did it cement the relationship that the hobbits have with Rohan?

Courage being slowly kindled: Frodo in the Barrow, Fred Bolger at Crickhollow, Frodo at Weathertop, Ford of Bruinen, and stabbing the troll in Moria. Merry has never been illustrated as Mr. Courage before unless we think of him maintaining morale in the Old Forest and brushing off the Black Rider at the Brandywine ferry. It is such a nice thought, and fair to say central to human nature: we all like to think we would rise the occasion. I think a key element of the scene is that Merry is alone and the only one who can help Eowyn. There is something about studies of crowds and how they behave when someone calls for help: the bigger the crowd, the more everyone assumes that someone else will do the rescuing. When you're alone like Merry, the choice becomes binary: either he helps Eowyn, or no one does. No Gandalf or Aragorn or Boromir to do the rescuing, just him, doing his best, whatever that is.

The Theoden/Denethor contrast is perhaps no clearer than in Theoden's last words to Merry: full of kindness and understanding and generosity:

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Merry could not speak, but wept anew. ‘Forgive me, lord,’ he said at last, ‘if I broke your command, and yet have done no more in your service than to weep at our parting.’

The old king smiled. ‘Grieve not! It is forgiven. Great heart will not be denied. Live now in blessedness; and when you sit in peace with your pipe, think of me! For never now shall I sit with you in Meduseld, as I promised, or listen to your herb-lore.’

Denethor would have said, "Me, me, me!" Notice how Theoden doesn't mention his pain or suffering, instead blessing Merry and gently teasing him about listening to herb-lore.

So that fuels the emotional burst of Merry later, something that feels remarkably well-earned as you read along:

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‘Good!’ said Merry. ‘Then I would like supper first, and after that a pipe.’ At that his face clouded. ‘No, not a pipe. I don’t think I’ll smoke again.’

‘Why not?’ said Pippin.

‘Well,’ answered Merry slowly. ‘He is dead. It has brought it all back to me. He said he was sorry he had never had a chance of talking herb-lore with me. Almost the last thing he ever said. I shan’t ever be able to smoke again without thinking of him, and that day, Pippin, when he rode up to Isengard and was so polite.’

Tolkien always writes with purpose. How fitting was it that the sword of the Dunedain which battled the North-kingdom was used to kill the Witchking here after all the years of battle that was done?
Tolkien's love of history mirrors my own. It's the difference between saying: "1066, the Normans conquer England," and "The story of England took on a new chapter with the Norman invasion of 1066, with the influx of Norman language and customs colliding with Anglo-Saxon culture, eventually fusing into a combination of the two."

Tolkien seems to delight in the long game of history: Sting was a magic sword from heroic Gondolin, aiding first Bilbo then Frodo and Sam, tying the Noldor-Morgoth First Age struggle of good vs evil to the Third Age's struggle. Frodo's mithril mail coat went back to some unnamed prince, with mithril being the special silver found only in Moria, the greatest of Dwarf realms, and saving Frodo's life in Moria and again in Cirith Ungol when the orcs fought over it. So the Barrow blade fits in with the same stream of storytelling, having a past and having a role to play in the present. I'd say that Tolkien loved exploring unintended consequences and showing that things forgotten and discarded can still be resurrected in history to change the tide, the Ring being only one of them.

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 1, 9:13pm

Views: 8470

from Healing to Scouring

There are times when I feel like Tolkien is less a novel writer and more of someone writing down personal observations in his diary; you cited one:

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Merry in the Houses of Healing says some wise things once he is awake. I always find this quote the wisest he’s ever been.

"It is best to love first what you are fitted to love, I suppose: you must start somewhere and have some roots, and the soil of the Shire is deep. Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not. I am glad that I know about them a little." -Merry

I like the balance here, and it stands in positive contrast to the end of Voltaire's Candide.

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The Ending of Candide
“The end of Candide is for me incontrovertible proof of genius of the first order; the stamp of the master is in that laconic conclusion, as stupid as life itself.” -Gustave Flaubert

I’ll never be able to sum that up as well as Flaubert. The famous ending is, after all of the calamities, misfortunes, tortures and pains endured by Candide and his friends Pangloss, [etc], that the only solace is productive work and that excessive philosophizing is just a path to superfluous misery.

“We must cultivate our garden,” says Candide, dismissing another of Pangloss’ arguments that everything has turned out for the best in this best of all possible worlds. By this point in the story, Pangloss has renounced his optimism but has decided to keep arguing for it anyway, because that’s what philosophers do.

It’s nice to see the roots of literary and theatrical absurdism creep out from a satiric epic.

LOTR is a heroic epic vs a satiric epic, so of course they'd differ, and Candide's ending is humorous for me, but I much prefer Tolkien remaining optimistic and looking at both high and low as Merry does.

Merry's philosophical musing also sets the stage for the Scouring, when he tells Frodo he won't save the Shire by being shocked and sad. But a couple observations:

1. Merry makes that rather biting comment without malice, and Frodo takes no offense. Why is that? Shouldn't they have a good 2025 Reality TV shouting match over who's right and who's the spawn of the devil? No. Why again? Because of profound affection and mutual respect between them that transcends political and tactical differences. They're on the same side, and they both want to save the Shire from Sharkey. And while Merry obviously plans and wins the battles, I like to think that Frodo helps preserve the Shire's inherent gentle, peaceful nature by defending the surrendered ruffians from abuse by the hobbits in their battle rage.

2. Merry's planning and tactics go all the way back to Crickhollow and his plans for their exit from the Shire. I love Pippin as much as Merry while acknowledging their different strengths: Pippin has irrepressible optimism, while Merry is the planner and organizer, so even with all their shared and parallel experiences, it still falls to Merry's natural strengths to lead the resistance. And it says a lot that pride and egos never get in the way. Merry gives orders and rallies the masses, and the rest obey. (And having a magic horn didn't hurt.)

3. I think all of LOTR is a testament to committee or teamwork. Committee has a negative connotation while team is positive, but for me they're the same, and neither is perfect. But overall, solidarity and teamwork save Middle-earth in the War of the Ring, from Gandalf fighting the Balrog in Moria to everyone at Helm's Deep and the Pelennor Fields to Frodo & Sam fighting to stay alive to reach Mt Doom, and then the hobbits go home and again need a team to save the Shire rather than a singular hero. It's a lot more heartwarming than the singular hero doing all the heavy lifting while surrounded by weak, wounded, needy victims. Everyone has a part to play, thus inclusion vs solitary ego. It's a matter of taste, of course.

Merry also had strong bonds with Eowyn and Eomer in Rohan, Eowyn frequently sending gifts over to him. We do also hear that Merry and Pippin are buried alongside Aragorn in the future. Therefore, the Shire gets full protection from the King and of course, held in high respect in all of Middle-earth.
I know as a reader that not everything can be stuffed into the narrative, but this ending in The Tale of Years is worth quoting since it's rather touching as it wraps things up:

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1484: In the spring of the year a message came from Rohan to Buckland that King Éomer wished to see Master Holdwine once again. Meriadoc was then old (102) but still hale. He took counsel with his friend the Thain, and soon after they handed over their goods and offices to their sons and rode away over the Sarn Ford, and they were not seen again in the Shire. It was heard after that Master Meriadoc came to Edoras and was with King Éomer before he died in that autumn. Then he and Thain Peregrin went to Gondor and passed what short years were left to them in that realm, until they died and were laid in Rath Dínen among the great of Gondor.

1541: In this year on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great king.

Eomer and Merry spend very little time together in the main text, but clearly a bond was forged between them as Eomer appreciated Merry for saving his sister and being so devoted to Theoden. This is karma at its finest, that Merry is invited by the King of Rohan for a sentimental reunion before they both die, and then Merry & Pippin are buried with honor in Gondor by Strider, a continuation of bonds forged back in Bree, and like the Ring, Sting, and Barrow-blade, continuing on through history to their fulfillment.

elentari3018
Nargothrond

Mar 2, 3:19am

Views: 8413

yes great points!

And thanks for missing me- i miss myself too on the boards haha. Between sickness and travels February was a doozy.... :p

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To be honest, I never give either hobbit much credit for fully appreciating what they've gotten themselves into, and I think they're in over their heads. That's not a criticism and in fact amplifies their courage and decision-making.

I agree that they are over their heads when the decided to join Frodo to whichever they think the Quest would lead them. We see M&P frazzled during the "Breaking of the Fellowship" when they want to even stop Frodo from going to Mordor. But that is the point of the Quest, not to have a pitstop at GOndor.

I reread and find more things to appreciate about Merry and Pippin. Merry for his level-headedness and what i've mentioned in his being "left behind" and still having the courage to do what is right. PIppin-he is always in the limelight from Two Towers Palantir to being a Knight of Gondor- Tolkien did use him for a lot of main and key scenes. Even at the close of Book 5, we see PIppin, the one losing hope yet also seeing the eagle as he loses consciousness after striking the troll to save Beregond.

Anyways, more about Merry and introspection- it is mentioned about 3x how much he missed Pippin and his "unquenchable cheerfulness" so that separation had a huge toll on Merry.

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Could it be that--gasp!--heroism is nuanced and relative rather than absolute? Is Merry as brave as Eowyn because he did his best, what he was capable of given his limitations and the supernatural circumstances? Did Eowyn, the only witness, find him brave or tepid or cowardly? Is there more to bravery than dying like Boromir? Rhetorical questions.

I like how Tolkien shows heroism in different lights in all his characters. A lot of people critique Frodo for not being brave enough to toss the Ring into the FIre. But as letter 246 pointed out and defended Frodo as being the vessel to bring the Ring to Mount Doom and no one really could destroy it at the end but the credit for him is that he could resist till that end. That bravery and endurance cannot be taken lightly.
It's like Merry's heroism at the Pelennor fields and also his courage to be brave to stay behind had grown him and made him to the hobbit he is when he returns to the Shire.

elentari3018
Nargothrond

Mar 2, 3:36am

Views: 8415

It's a nice balance

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And while Merry obviously plans and wins the battles, I like to think that Frodo helps preserve the Shire's inherent gentle, peaceful nature by defending the surrendered ruffians from abuse by the hobbits in their battle rage.

When i reread Scouring, and hear that about Merry and Frodo's difference, i do wonder what kind of toll the Quest had on Frodo for him to feel less of an inclination to fight. But fight they had to since their land is clearly being invaded.
"There you are, Frodo! I knew we should have to fight Well they started the killing."
"You won't rescue Lotho, or the SHire, just by being shocked and sad, my dear Frodo."

And Merry responds by saying they have to raise the Shire.
We do see Frodo saying that Merry go make the arrangements as well.
Where did Merry's prowess with organizing come from or we see that throughout the book that he is practical and a thinker ? Frodo i believe, is also capable but he took the backseat with helping, i feel. You do make a good point that we do need someone to keep hobbits' rage limited so that innocents do not get hurt too which was Frodo's role.

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t still falls to Merry's natural strengths to lead the resistance. And it says a lot that pride and egos never get in the way. Merry gives orders and rallies the masses, and the rest obey. (And having a magic horn didn't hurt.)

I tried to find if Tolkien had a opinion between his hobbits Frodo and Merry but found nothing in the letters but i would like to comment that The Scouring did kind of foreshadow what kind of role Frodo would have post-Quest as well. He went back to his civilian life and did not want to do anything too public. He did serve as Mayor temporarily but his main role was to keep the Shiriffs back to proper numbers.
Tolkien really contrasted Frodo against Merry, Pippin and Sam post Quest in terms of showing that Frodo would not be able to continue to be in Middle-earth while the other hobbits will still have their influence and roles left for a long while.

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I think all of LOTR is a testament to committee or teamwork. Committee has a negative connotation while team is positive, but for me they're the same, and neither is perfect.

This is one main reason why i love this story so much!

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"It is best to love first what you are fitted to love, I suppose: you must start somewhere and have some roots, and the soil of the Shire is deep. Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not. I am glad that I know about them a little." -Merry

Merry waxing philosophical at this point is so funny to me because he just came out of the Black Breath, is hungry but managed to anger Aragorn with not remembering where is pipeweed is but also have two cents of wisdom. It is an interesting and memorable moment for me.
I actually do not really understand completely what he means by this quote and how he even think of saying it. Did Tolkien want to make this point and therefore gave it to one of his main characters to say? (Like Faramir and the great wave dream?)

noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 2, 11:12am

Views: 8373

Candide-ly

In Reply To

I haven't read Candide (I am trying to work through Paradise Lost, but have stalled). I did reflect that a lot of what one sees at present (and perhaps in any age) is the opposite opinion to Pangloss: that everything is doomed, or already spoiled: that 'resistance is useless'. Or that everthing needs to be burned down (or is going to be anyway) in the hope that something better will emerge, or that the speaker might be able to profit individually from the chaos they are causing or are witnessing.

And, yes, this is about Tolkien, because these points of view turn up repeatedly in LOTR and Gandalf (speaking I imagine for Tolkien) gives them pretty short shrift: 'Such counsels will make the Enemy's victory certain indeed' he tells Denethor. And we probably all remember without me quoting it, his rather kinder reaction to Frodo wishing he didn't live 'in such times'. I think I could probably find a dozed or more further apposite quotes. But so, probably could most other Reading Room regulars, so let's not list them unless somebody asks.
That in turn reminded me of something I really enjoyed in Brian Rosebury's book, Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon. In order to avoid a quotation of unfair length, I'll have to pick up part way through Dr Rosebury's discussion of why many readers who enjoy LOTR find The Silmarillion lacks the things they enjoyed in LOTR or TH:

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According to this view, having accomplished The Lord of the Rings (for which The Hobbit is also an apprentice-piece), Tolkien proved incapable in his last years of bringing his mature mastery to bear upon transforming the recalcitrant material of 'The Silmarillion' into a comparably effective narrative.

There is some truth in this view; certainly at its weakest The Silmarillion (especially if we have The Lord of the Rings freshly in mind) reads like preliminary notes towards a much fuller narrative, written up in an exhausting 'high style' which proceeds in stilted paragraphs, linked by the formulaic conjunctions, ‘And … Now…', and 'For …'. To find the strengths of The Silmarillion one must look to quite different qualities from those of The Lord of the Rings. And we should start by recognising that it is fundamentally different in mode and temper from that work: while The Lord of the Rings is a comedy, of which the keynote is joy enriched by regret, The Silmarillion is tragic, not to say bitter, in spirit. Its atmosphere comes as a shock to anyone who supposed (as it was natural to do before 1977) that Tolkien's entire literary career had been guided by the opinion, expressed in the essay 'On Fairy Stories', that ‘Tragedy is the true form of drama, its highest function; but the opposite is true of Fairy-story?'' This assertion, written just as the early chapters of The Lord of the Rings were unfolding, can now be seen to represent a turning-point in Tolkien's reflection on his own creativity. The Hobbit, written in the early 1930s as a children's adventure story, had certainly culminated in what Tolkien in the essay calls 'eucatastrophe', a happy ending, against the odds, which has emotional intensity and moral fittingness. The passage in 'On Fairy Stories' thus signals Tolkien's intention to take The Hobbit, in this respect, as the prototype for The Lord of the Rings - not the tragic
'Silmarillion', which he had hitherto regarded as his serious work for adults.

It is true that The Silmarillion is as Augustinian in its theology as The Lord of the Rings - indeed the theology is fully explicit, as it is not in the latter work. But whereas in The Lord of the Rings the emphasis is ultimately upon the goodness of the created world, in The Silmarillion it falls upon the ubiquity of sin, the readiness with which created beings are deluded and corrupted, the tenacious power of pride, cupidity, and resentment, and the depths of cruelty and blasphemy to which they lead.

Tolkien, a Cultural Phenomenon, by Brain Rosebury, Palgrave Macmillan, 2003

Now of course 'the ubiquity of sin, the readiness with which created beings are deluded and corrupted, the tenacious power of pride, cupidity, and resentment, and the depths of cruelty and blasphemy to which they lead' are very present in LOTR and they provide the 'in such times' circumstances of the adventures. And, perhaps unusually in the Fantasy genre, Tolkien has much to say about 'the readiness with which created beings are deluded and corrupted' applying to people who are far too sure of their own righteousness.

But the hobbits - Merry Pippin and Sam especially (as Frodo is too busy with his internal/external struggle with the Ring) provide an important theme of the 'goodness of the created world'. At least to me. I htink they are ust as important, though different to the characters Merry is admiring as more conventionally heroic.
And a further (intended, I think) irony is that Merry , when he gives that little speech in praise of those unsung heroes of whom hobbits are blissfuly unaware, has recently become one of the most conventionally heroic people in Middle-earth..

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 2, 11:21am

Views: 8375

Merry, one of the most conventionally heroic people in Middle-earth

I thought I might back up that claim with a quote from Mark T Hooker's A Tolkien Mathomium, in which he is looking at the word mathom in Tolkien (from Mathum, a precious or valuable gift, with specific social connotations). I think that explains better than I can otherwise how post-WK Merry is percieved:

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In his article entitled "The Social Context of Warfare in Anglo-Saxon England," Dr. Richard Underwood explains the significance of mathums, which in his modern text are referred to as gifts.

[Warriors were rewarded for their service with gifts, particularly of weapons and armour, and, after long service, with grants of land. These warriors were in no way mercenaries, however; the relationship between lord and his warband was long term and was considered to be honourable for both parties. Personal prestige was considered extremely important. The value of gifts given by the lord therefore lay not only in their monetary worth but also in the prestige they brought. Gift Giving was both public and formal, and reflected well on both the lord, who demonstrated his ability to provide gifts and the warrior who earned them.

In return for their lord's generosity the warriors accepted a number of social obligations. The most important of which was the duty to fight in the warband and, if their lord was killed, to avenge him or die in the attempt.”

…’The reason that Eomer is prepared to shower gifts (mathums) on Merry is that Merry had fulfilled the social obligation placed on him by entering into King Theoden's service (R.59; V.2), and by the previous bestowal of mathums of war gear (R.90;
3). When all the other King's men had been killed or carried away by their terrified steeds, Merry had indeed come forward fight with Eowyn as she stood between the Nazgûl and his prey, prepared to avenge Theoden's death, or die in the attempt 142-143; V.6). Merry's steadfastness in the fulfillment of his duty to the King had increased his honor and prestige beyond Eomer's ability to bestow a gift worthy of it.

The narrator concludes Tolkien's exposition on the tradition Gift Giving in this scene, with the explanation that "Merry took the horn, for it could not be refused" (R.316; VI.6). The gift not merely a kindness, but a traditionalized obligation that bound the bestower to present it and the recipient to take it.

Mark T Hooker, A Tolkien Mathomium, Llyfrawr, 2006

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Mar 2, 11:22am)

noWizardme
Gondolin

Mar 2, 2:13pm

Views: 8354

One more: about being a "hero" rather than "a mere instrument of good."

Tolkien on Frodo after his return to the Shire:

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“Slowly he fades 'out of the picture' saying and doing less and less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being ‘wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden’ (III 268) it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. ‘Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.’ That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a ‘hero’, not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it.”

— The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien Letter #246

I think this distinction about being a "hero" sometimes and "a mere instrument of good" at others is one we might apply to Merry. He is both.

Merry the hero attacks the Witch King despite his terror, because it is the right thing to do for his lord, Theoden, and for Dernhelm/Eowyn.

Merry the instrument of good is carried off by the orc raid, thus enabling Frodo and Sam to escape. This distinction is lost in the PJ movie in which M&P heroically realise Frodo is trying to leave and deliberately act as a decoy to distract the uruks. I thought it worked fine as cinema, but something is lost.

My point is that book M&P have no idea whether they are helping Frodo or anything and anybody else, or whether they have royally messed up the proper unfolding of events.

Similarly, M&P wash up in Fangorn after their orcish adventures. Movie M&P trick Treebeard (who is a comical old fool, for movie purposes) into witnessing for himself the damage being done by Saruman. And this provokes the movie Ents into war. Book M&P have no such agenda, and it is arguable that their value is to act as the focus and sounding-board that allows Treebeard to come the conclusion he's nearly reached anyway. My guess is that very astute book-Treebeard would certainly have noticed being manipulated or prodded in a particular direction, and goodness knows whether that would have worked. But M&P are an "instrument of good" anyway: of course for our heroic heroes to survive Helm's Deep, the Ents and huorns have to attack at just the right time, not whenever Treebeard gets around to realising that he must do something.

This business of unintended consequences of action is recurring in LOTR. I suspect it is to do with Tolkine's worldview.

What I don't think happens is that there is a growth from a "a mere instrument of good" to a "hero". That was what most likely I was expecting when I first read LOTR - that Frodo would have 'grown' during his adventures to the point where he could do in Mordor what he couldn't do at his own fireside - cast the Ring into the fire.

But the situation is complicated by the character growth that our hobbit characters do all show.

I think we see both aspects in the part of Merry's story we're considering now. He is heroic to attack the witch king. But he is arguably also an instrument of good in ways he could not know - his attack is with a weapon that has a power he does not know about. It is unclear whether being wounded with the barrow-blade is what kills the WK, or whether it undoes the undeathly spell on him so that he may now be killed by Eowyn and a conventional weapon (my reading is the second one). Either way his blow turns the battle between the WK and Eowyn.

~~~~~~
"I am not made for querulous pests." Frodo 'Spooner' Baggins.

elentari3018
Nargothrond

Mar 3, 12:25am

Views: 8331

Glad for this distinction

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My point is that book M&P have no idea whether they are helping Frodo or anything and anybody else, or whether they have royally messed up the proper unfolding of events.

For book-verse, we see Merry and PIppin want to prevent Frodo from deciding Mordor, which totally goes against the point of the Quest even.
I think movie-verse in which we see M&P distract the Uruks from Frodo does work cinematically as you've mentioned but it is lost that Merry and Pippin just accidentally were captured thinking that they were the hobbits to have the Ring .

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He is heroic to attack the witch king. But he is arguably also an instrument of good in ways he could not know - his attack is with a weapon that has a power he does not know about.

I feel like all hobbits have unexpected consequences of their heroic action. Did Frodo know what will really happen if he tosses the Ring into the fire of Mount Doom?
Does Sam really think he could take the Ring from Frodo and fulfill the Quest if Frodo had died?
Merry out of pity helped Eowyn because he did not want her to die alone, unaided, so he did not know how hewing the kneecap of the WK would do anything.
Did PIppin know to save Faramir's life and that would be an act of heroism?
Which goes to your point about unintended consequences of our hobbit heroes and i think this is what is so endearing and this is the reason why we come back to the story. It's not like Batman or any superhero out there who knows his or her role and everyone knows that he is the hero. The untended hero has more power to speak to the audience and most people do not intend ot be the hero but instead are thrust into it at the moment.

I love how you mention letter 246 because it's my favorite letter ever because it gives light to how Tolkien thought of Frodo and indeed what kind of hero was Frodo? A mere instrument to have to carry the most evil trinket of Middle-earth, Frodo really was left with nothing post-Quest and it's so sad for me as the reader and as him being my favorite character. Tolkien also mentioned Frodo was a "vessel" only to do what he could do therefore he did not fail, which was little solace to me when i read Lotr for the first few times and seeing my hero not having the peace he deserves really made me upset.

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This business of unintended consequences of action is recurring in LOTR. I suspect it is to do with Tolkine's worldview.

His writing of LotR really have a lot of his undertones of what he thought of life in general and several characters even get his words and advice straight out from him.

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 3, 3:02am

Views: 8321

A couple points

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Which goes to your point about unintended consequences of our hobbit heroes and i think this is what is so endearing and this is the reason why we come back to the story. It's not like Batman or any superhero out there who knows his or her role and everyone knows that he is the hero. The untended hero has more power to speak to the audience and most people do not intend to be the hero but instead are thrust into it at the moment.

Indeed, yes! While I enjoy the Marvel movies, I know what a superhero is for and what they're supposed to do, and I really watch not for story or character but to see some cool, well-choreographed fight scenes. And we can't have endless hobbit hero stories or that would become a boring trope. But there is something compelling about Frodo and Friends rising to the occasion not with superpowers but with grit.

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A mere instrument to have to carry the most evil trinket of Middle-earth, Frodo really was left with nothing post-Quest and it's so sad for me as the reader and as him being my favorite character. Tolkien also mentioned Frodo was a "vessel" only to do what he could do therefore he did not fail, which was little solace to me when i read Lotr for the first few times and seeing my hero not having the peace he deserves really made me upset.

A hearty nod of agreement! I was pretty devastated on my original read of LOTR, because I was young and heroes were always rewarded: parades, princesses, castles, treasures, etc, and Frodo got none of the above, just some one-way trip to somewhere off the map instead of fame and fortune. I'm glad we have public access to Letter 246 since it assuages my reader disappointment with Frodo's fate to know that Frodo's creator had deep sympathy for him and wasn't just trying to be ironic and surprise readers with an unexpected fate. Rather, he had deep philosophical and theological reasons for what happened to Frodo, and it all fits together better.

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 4, 1:44am

Views: 8159

Being Left Behind

This is really interesting! I hadn't actually thought of this idea so specifically, although I did feel sorry for him.

In fact, there are a lot of significant "left behind" occurrences in the books: Frodo is left by Bilbo, Bilbo (although he knew it was far beyond him at that point) was left behind by Frodo and the Fellowship, Fatty Bolger is left behind by his companions (although he probably wasn't all that sorry), Faramir was left behind by Boromir on the quest to Rivendell, and the entire remainder of the Fellowship other than Boromir was left behind by Frodo and Sam. Faramir, Eowyn and Merry were left behind when the Gondorian forces left for the black gate, and of course everybody everywhere was trying to leave Gollum behind once a bunch of people had quit trying to find him and make use of him.

But Merry seems to be a special case. Gotta think about it.

More later!

(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 4, 1:44am)

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 4, 2:12am

Views: 8152

Thanks for expanding on that

So many examples, and something we've never discussed here in depth. Kudos to Elentari too for broaching it.

sevilodorf
Dor-Lomin

Mar 4, 2:59am

Views: 8142

Bill was left behind at the Gates of Moria

and a side track.... synonyms for left behind.....

abandoned, deserted, forsaken, lagged behind, outpaced, stranded, relinquished, forgotten, or outstripped,

The connotations inherent in each synonym can be powerful.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)

elentari3018
Nargothrond

Mar 6, 1:47am

Views: 4972

Great additional examples!

I do think Merry's left behind is significant because we hear him verbalize in several instances how being left behind felt like especially without the "unquenchable cheerfulness of PIppin.
in the same way Eowyn is left behind, i see how Eowyn and Merry bond over that fact. Even post-Quest, we can deduce in the Houses of Healing they can speak about how they feel about being left behind and how that fact shaped their actions. (hey that's a good fanfic to write ;)
Merry shows fortitude during the time ARagorn left him and also when Pippin leaves him for the Black Gate.
Also, to have to not know the fate of his kinsmen during the time that Aragorn and co went for a last stand at the Black Gate must've worn on him as well.

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 6, 5:50pm

Views: 4695

Ah, yes, poor Bill!

That broke my heart; but at least he ended up being OK.
Every one of those words carry as much baggage as Bill did, with the possible exception of outstripped.

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 6, 10:08pm

Views: 4677

Issues of abandonment

Seriously, those synonyms show no mercy. Merry was stoic in comparison, but depending on your circumstances, being left behind can carve a hole in your heart. And there's a reason why psychologists talk about issues of abandonment.

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 6, 10:52pm

Views: 4674

" . . . can carve a hole in your heart"

That really says it all.

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 8, 11:30pm

Views: 4283

So glad you're back! Some thoughts on "left behind" and on Denethor versus Theoden.

" . . . characters thinking about other characters."

Is that part of his “left behind” feelings that we get a slice of what he is thinking and missing of the other characters?
Yes, I think that's exactly it. That's what we do when we're cut off from those we are close to. It's a loss, so of course we think about what we lost. And they are relationships, and we don't want them to end so we keep them going by thinking about those people. And if they are in danger, then we worry about them helplessly, wishing we could do something. Poor Merry is stuck with all of those.

We read that Pippin also swore allegiance to Denethor- why do you think Tolkien would see the importance that the hobbits align their interest in this way? How do Pippin and Merry know the importance of aligning their interests with these two great countries?
These are a great couple of questions, involving both the strategic and the personal, and the strategic involves both author's strategy and what might be called in-book strategy.

Pippin and Denethor and then Merry and Theoden are kind of on opposite sides of a mirror, or maybe even between two mirrors reflecting each other.
The biggest contrast of course is between Denethor and Theoden, and I always thought it was interesting that the more ingenuous, less leader-ish Hobbit--or perhaps at least the less "tough" hobbit--is paired with a hard and unsympathetic ruler who was very difficult to please and quite touchy. And Merry, who could likely handle Denethor much better is paired with a kindly and sympathetic king that would seem more suitable to be matched up with Pippin.

But Pippin's innocence and "softer" personality may have been exactly what was needed to touch Denethor's heart; and it seems to have done just that: "A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter’s evening, passed over the old man’s face." That's a phrase I'll never forget.

It seems to me that Merry's pairing with Theoden, unlike Pippin's situation, isn't about the king, but about Eowyn and the Lord of the Nazgul. We don't see a lot of interaction between Theoden and Merry, but there is quite a bit more with Eowyn, and a short but a very definitive one with Mr. N.

When Tolkien chose Merry for the encounter at Pelennor Field, it was necessary for him to be with Rohan in the battle, so that explains, I think, one reason why Tolkien arranged the hobbits in this way. And I do think there are independently good and maybe compelling reasons for the Pippin and Denethor combination, not only from the authors point of view, but from Gandolf's point of view, and not just because of the Palantir danger to Pippin and therefore to the cause itself.

But as far as the hobbits knowing any strategic importance about aligning their interests with these two countries, I don't think they had any idea really. I think it was very personal on both counts.

(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 8, 11:31pm)

Lissuin
Doriath

Mar 9, 1:18am

Views: 4265

"Don't leave me behind!"

The call to patriotism is strong in the young. Great causes stir the hearts of many young ones in every Age in every realm. Tolkien would have witnessed first hand how that call resounded in his generation of the First World War, and I think here it has found its way into his stories and characters. Young English gentlemen of Oxford were not the only ones who answered. And some who did not meet proper age or medical requirements would find a way to slip through to join their friends and relatives, refusing to be left behind to mind fields and factories in imagined ignominy. A recently arrived 16-yr old Norwegian boy signed on to the 2nd Minnesota Regiment and fought for the Union for two years alongside other local immigrants, rising from private to corporal. Those young men were granted citizenship for their service, if they survived. Women, too, slipped through the "Men Only" mandates, as in these documented cases of the American Civil War. https://www.archives.gov/...654687146.1741478375

Adventure and honor and comradeship are alluring calls for those seeking to prove themselves and to find where they belong. The orcs and Witch Kings and Black Breaths of the Pelennor Fields of every Age are the unimagined price.

”Don’t leave me behind!" is Merry speaking for the left behind of every culture in every Age of humankind.

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 9, 5:13pm

Views: 4103

Wasn't Denethor too hostile towards talent and strength to like Merry?

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The biggest contrast of course is between Denethor and Theoden, and I always thought it was interesting that the more ingenuous, less leader-ish Hobbit--or perhaps at least the less "tough" hobbit--is paired with a hard and unsympathetic ruler who was very difficult to please and quite touchy. And Merry, who could likely handle Denethor much better is paired with a kindly and sympathetic king that would seem more suitable to be matched up with Pippin.

Good point! And it made me think that aside from Boromir, anyone who might rival Denethor in talent or strong spirit was labelled by him as a threat and enemy, notably Gandalf and Faramir, who wanted to be on Denethor's side and help him without the tension. So Merry, being stronger of spirit and a little smarter than Pippin, might have triggered Denethor's prickly personality more than Pippin, whom Denethor never saw as a threat or competitor and more as a pet.

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 12, 5:09pm

Views: 4033

Yes, I agree with that.

Denethor saw rivals everywhere, and although I don't think he would've seen Merry as much of a rival, but I think he probably would have been annoyed and put off by a greater level of confidence and insight.

I expect Pippin's innocence appealed to him.

(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 12, 5:10pm)

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 12, 8:50pm

Views: 3976

Eowyn and Merry

Discuss a little about Eowyn and Merry’s similarities of being left behind and the ways that we underestimate them. In what ways have they been “left behind” and how does that affect their motivations to join the war in Gondor?

There is a lot of heartbreak here; more on Eowyn's side than on Merry's, but still deeply affecting and serious for both. Although in another sense, at least some of Eowyn's abilities were recognized and appreciated, while with Merry, it didn't seem to be recognized very much at all, although Theoden acknowledges that Merry has courage: But, but, lord," Merry stammered, "I offered you my sword. I do not want to be parted from you like this, Theoden King. And as all my friends have gone to battle, I should be ashamed to stay behind." "But we ride on horses tall and swift," said Theoden; "and great though your heart be, you cannot ride on such beasts." And: (Merry) “And I would not have it said of me in song only that I was always left behind!’
‘I received you for your safe-keeping [emphasis mine],’ answered Théoden; ‘and also to do as I might bid. None of my Riders can bear you as burden. If the battle were before my gates, maybe your deeds would be remembered by the minstrels; but it is a hundred leagues and two to Mundburg where Denethor is lord. I will say no more.’

They are both very similar and their response to being told, or at least to feeling as if the powers that be thought they weren't much good at fighting, or at least that those abilities were not noticed or appreciated. Eowyn protests that she is a shieldmaiden, not a dry-nurse, and Théoden: ‘And in such a battle as we think to make on the fields of Gondor what would you do, Master Meriadoc, sword-thain though you be, and greater of heart than of stature?’
‘As for that, who can tell?’ answered Merry.” He’s ready to do what he can. Little did they all know!

As far as in what ways they have been left behind:

Eowyn:
Once more trapped by duty.

Very personally left behind by her uncle and brother.

Even more personally, left,in more ways than one, by the man she loved.

And in the end, although she longed for death, left by Theoden to a place she could not follow.

Merry:
Constrained by his oath to Theoden.

Left on purpose or simply because of circumstances by absolutely everybody.

elentari3018
Nargothrond

Mar 13, 2:48am

Views: 3803

Great points!

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But Pippin's innocence and "softer" personality may have been exactly what was needed to touch Denethor's heart; and it seems to have done just that: "A pale smile, like a gleam of cold sun on a winter’s evening, passed over the old man’s face." That's a phrase I'll never forget.

It's an interesting point about pairing Pippin and Denethor versus Merry and THeoden. I wonder if Tolkien focused on these differences of character as part of his writing process to make the conflict different.
We see PIppin go to Minas Tirith for no other reason than to keep out of mischief but we see the most growth for him in here as well. From swearing allegiance to Denethor, befriending Beregond, going against Denethor's wishes and saving Faramir and then fighting at the Black Gate, he really proved himself to know what to do in these dark times.
Merry's road was dark, but he had a nice King to guide him halfway and then Eowyn making sure that he is NOT left behind and to make a difference in the war. Theoden was with him when he was feeling the most lonely without Pippin therefore Theoden's death hit Merry hard when it happened.

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But as far as the hobbits knowing any strategic importance about aligning their interests with these two countries, I don't think they had any idea really. I think it was very personal on both counts.

Yes, i think they are personal decisions as well and just part of their hobbity nature to help.

elentari3018
Nargothrond

Mar 13, 2:49am

Views: 3802

Such an interesting link about women soldiers!

Thanks for that. And yes, i'm sure Tolkien also witnessed first hand how many were left behind.

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 14, 12:55am

Views: 25875

Did Merry really want to fight, or just not be left alone?

That to me is the contrast with Eowyn, who wanted both. But I can't escape the feeling that Merry had no idea what a real battle was like, and if he had been allowed more of an observer status, he would have reacted emotionally similar to Sam and the Southron in Ithilien:

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It was Sam’s first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man’s name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace

But I think since Merry was thrust into battle, and worse, a duel between Eowyn, his protector, and a supernatural being on a supernatural beast, he just rose the occasion as best he could. Overall I think he didn't want to be left behind in a land of strangers, even though it promised relative safety.

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 14, 1:05am

Views: 25818

Hobbits as pupil-heroes

Reading your reflection on M&P made me think of their overall timeline in Rohan: captives of the Orcs where they effected their own escape (with some luck), then under the protection of superior beings again as they had been all along: Gandalf-Theoden, then Theoden-Eowyn for Merry and Gandalf for Pippin. Each rises to the occasion to be a hero in the fight for Minas Tirith, acting with bravery and good instincts, then Merry falls under the purview of Faramir/the Warden of Healing, and Pippin is a grunt in the army, with Aragorn and Gandalf at the apex. Then they literally under the shadow of Gandalf all the way to the borders of the Shire, and after that on their own.

As we're wondering how much of what Tolkien was deliberate and how much just made a good story, I wonder how deliberate this construct was in his mind, and if he ever considered altering it? Clearly Sam and Frodo are on their own after crossing the Anduin/Rubicon, and maybe that was the contrast he sought? Or maybe it was just organic to the story, but it sure does stand out.

Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator

Mar 22, 12:21am

Views: 20537

Great questions

about dear Merry. I agree, we do see a rare amount of introspection from him. He's quite self-aware, and also quite insightful about those he cares for.

Some belated thoughts on a couple of questions:

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We read that Pippin also swore allegiance to Denethor- why do you think Tolkien would see the importance that the hobbits align their interest in this way? How do Pippin and Merry know the importance of aligning their interests with these two great countries?

I do think it's relevant that Merry and Pippin are "hobbit nobility", with hereditary estates and titles. This swearing service in a formal way has a ceremonial element that's just a little closer to their experience than to that of most hobbits.

What particularly strikes me is that Pippin's oath comes in part out of a feeling of a debt owed to Boromir, whom he respected even before he owed him his life, and perhaps a spark of pride at his treatment by Denethor, while Merry's urge comes from a surge of affection for Theoden. "Filled with love for this old man", as you quote.

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Discuss a little about Eowyn and Merry’s similarities of being left behind and the ways that we underestimate them. IN what ways have they been “left behind” and how does that affect their motivations to join the war in Gondor?

Eowyn has felt left behind/left out for a very long time. Gandalf to Eomer:
"My friend, you had horses, and deed of arms, and the free fields; but she, being born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on."

Merry's experience is more recent, but there's a similar "not good enough", whether because of size or gender. Perhaps a difference is that Eowyn believes (for good reason) she is "good enough" as a warrior to be included in this war. Merry knows he's no warrior, but wants to do his part anyway, for the sake of those he loves (which now includes Theoden). And, as Theoden says, "Great heart will not be denied."

The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View

CuriousG
Gondolin

Mar 22, 9:03pm

Views: 15872

Hobbit nobles, and Princess Diana

One thing I learned watching The Crown was that Maggie Thatcher was a fish out of water when invited to Windsor Castle, feeling awkward in nearly every setting, and of course no one bothered to give her a crash course in etiquette so she'd fit in. They made the contrast with Diana, daughter of an earl and, while not super-rich, still a traveler in aristocratic circles, so she knew the society rules when she met Charles.

That's my context for Sam (Maggie Thatcher) and M&P (Diana), with the latter perhaps unlikely to have knights sworn to their fathers, but still familiar somehow with the concept, and love Sam though we do, we can't really expect him to know the rules to navigate the situation as well.

In Reply To

uncle Iorlas
Nargothrond

Mar 26, 9:32pm

Views: 12414

the great of the small and the small of the great

In Reply To

Each rises to the occasion to be a hero in the fight for Minas Tirith, acting with bravery and good instincts, then Merry falls under the purview of Faramir/the Warden of Healing, and Pippin is a grunt in the army, with Aragorn and Gandalf at the apex.

I think it should be noted here that Pippin, whether or not he does some grunting (I’m sure Aragorn and Gandalf do some grunting as well), is present at the Morannon as a dignitary. As with Gimli and Legolas, he is here to bear witness for, do honor to, and represent his people. And (as I am sure Gandalf has never forgotten for half a second) he is exactly the right person for this job, the heir apparent of the right and proper Thain of the Shire. He has been treated this way consistently by everyone in Gondor (save perhaps Bergil) since the moment he showed up on Shadowfax’ back. It’s a standout example of Tolkien’s ability to refrain from stating central facts that he even tells us that everyone in Minas Tirith is calling Pip ernil i pheriannath strictly in terms of the youth's flatfooted discomfort with the fact, never mentioning that they are exactly literally correct.

I would not have said Pippin has a soft personality. Even his feckless youthful tendency to blunder into trouble is an old folkloric heroic trope; he does after all usually acquit himself admirably when the trouble comes. He has that key trait of a born royal in Tolkien’s world, that he inspires the people around him; when everyone else is sleepwalking along under Denethor’s orders, for example, Pippin is the one who breaks out of that blind obedience and even manages to talk some of the servants into a degree of rebellion, to say nothing of Beregond.

It makes the two younger hobbits an interesting pair that they are inexactly matched; they are more or less the heirs to the two most important families in the Shire, but one is to be the Thain and the Brandybucks aren’t exactly of the Shire at all, but a neighboring enclave of less lineage. Pippin is young and subject to lapses of judgment, whereas Merry is of all the hobbits the most likely to have made a plan B and plan C; he is the elder and far the more sensible, but it seems written in the wind nevertheless that Pippin has the more lordly destiny, marked by that charismatic spark. Come the scouring, Pippin talks back to the big men with a speech or two, but it’s Merry who lays the plans.

We must remember that in Tolkien’s world, and nowhere more conspicuously than in the acts of the hobbits, humility is a paramount virtue, indeed a weapon in its own right. This somewhat cuts against the author’s delight in the iconography of noble descent and kingly glory, and that friction reaches its most energetically focused creative effect in the hobbits. Which is the greater of these two young hobbit heroes? I could debate it with myself all day. Pippin is unmistakably born for glory, in the measure of his people—and Merry embodies the signal virtue of that people, their humility, right down to the marrow of his bones, and so he ends up performing a deed of martial glory unequaled by anybody in the pages of this book except Eowyn, right beside him. Just as no one wise or powerful could ever have borne the Ring, which seduces power with power, so no man of might could hinder the lord of the Nazgûl; his end could only have been brought about by someone not a man at all. And in the event he faced two such: a pair of heroes with the courage and resolve to pit themselves against a demon way out of their weight class, both of whom were explicitly instructed by the mighty military men to stay home and leave heroic deeds to the less humble. When in fact, in a sort of miniature of the destruction of Sauron himself, the mighty men are automatically disqualified from ever being able to vanquish the mighty villain.

It’s become more and more apparent to me in recent years, as I read this book to younger and younger children, how delicately and deliberately constructed the drumroll of Merry’s fretting about being useless, insignificant, and left behind really is. By the time Book V has begun, the author has unmistakably determined what deed Merry is on his way to do.

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 27, 1:08am

Views: 10592

"breaks out of that blind obedience"

Yes, oh yes.

You've put Pippin in an entirely new light for me. Although I noticed this, I never gave it the weight it (he) deserved.

" . . . Tolkien’s ability to refrain from stating central facts." I had noticed this. It's one of the key reasons why his writing is so effective. Oddly, this kind of thing makes the reader work harder, to try to figure out what is meant by what is not quite said. But instead of repelling or exhausting, it pulls us in.

(This post was edited by Ethel Duath on Mar 27, 1:08am)

Ethel Duath
Gondolin

Mar 27, 1:13am

Views: 10568

And, "Mods way, way up" (for those who remember that).//