https://deadline.com/...tOVpljMLeSv9yPRzPQJQ

4.3 billion minutes for September only. Very strong and solid numbers and is the reason the executive of Amazon said in her interview that it is out of the question that the show will continue as planned. And if we believe her that the numbers of ROP overseas iis 4 times bigger than the U.S, that is great news for fans of the series.

P.S. But but but i remember Samba Tv and some notorious youtube channels claiming that noone waches that show and it will be cancelled for sure.

Ratings are unreliable at best. High ratings are released by parties interested in swaying the public to watch their cause. Low ratings are released by parties trying to make the point that the show sucks for their own agenda. Pros and cons offers their respective cherry-picked, unverifiable numbers that only Amazon muckity-mucks really know. The ratings are not zero, and discussion in a vacuum is moot or pointless with no real purpose for analysis other than gossip and rumor. I doubt anyone here has a real basis in truth.

That said, it's easy to see ego and commitment. It will go at least five seasons.

...Ratings matter a lot. Advertisers care about them a great deal, and they're not going to trust Amazon's internal numbers. Nielsen ratings are used by companies to help their marketing teams judge what shows are worth advertising on and whether or not the asking price for advertisement space on those shows is worth it. And if advertisers don't feel a show is worth their effort, then the streaming service is going to feel the same way.

So to act like ratings are just a political football to be carried by one faction or another is to ignore reality. They are important to a lot of people. You might not be one of them, but that doesn't really matter.

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well, Amazon has only barely started showing a few ads during shows like RoP. the few pennies that these ads bring up are absolute peanuts to a subscription service like Amazon's. Amazon's reasons for splurging so much on RoP are quite complex, and seem to be about the Amazon 'brand' in quite a broad sense. If they're hoping to use it to drive Prime subscriber numbers then e.g. viewing figures in non-traditional markets might be more important than say the US. But, of course, a complete flop would be bad from a prestige or most other perspectives.

If no one was watching ROP, it would be cancelled. Regardless of the size of Jeff Bezos's ego.

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Bezos is a long-term fan of Tolkien's LOTR and he has the money (waaaay more than enough) to create ROP as a fan-service for himself. I think his ego is the key point: ROP will go for the full five seasons because Bezos wants to see it.

then I think he should have at least arranged a cameo. I would have. It's still not too late. I think he's a natural to be an orc. No disrespect intended. Thats my body type too. We can't all be statuesque elves after all. ;)

He's also stepped back from running the company and has a board of directors to answer to.

Not to get sidetracked - but this brings up one of my biggest pet peeves about the Jackson films. Celeborn was a huge charisma vacuum in those films.

With the exception of Legolas, I really hated how Jackson depicted Elves in his films. The slow motion, the low register for speaking, the weird ethereal luminescence - all of it were choices I disagree with. Probably the most glaring, head-scratching take of all is something Jackson says in the director's commentary:

As the fellowship is escaping Moria - during the "GIVE THEM A MOMENT FOR PITY'S SAKE!" scene, Jackson recalls giving Orlando Bloom this direction (paraphrased)

"You're an immortal elf who has lived for thousands of years and you are confused by death and by the grief of your companions as its something you're not used to..." or something to that effect.

I almost fell out of my chair at home listening to it.

As the fellowship is escaping Moria - during the "GIVE THEM A MOMENT FOR PITY'S SAKE!" scene, Jackson recalls giving Orlando Bloom this direction (paraphrased)

"You're an immortal elf who has lived for thousands of years and you are confused by death and by the grief of your companions as its something you're not used to..." or something to that effect.

It doesn’t really matter to me if it’s ratings or Jeff Bezos’ ego or both that keeps RoP coming as long as it keeps getting renewed.

I’ve seen speculation that Amazon could make an announcement at New York ComicCon, which starts today. I don’t know why that might be though.

Bezos as Celeborn would be funny, at least the reaction would be.

Whoever is cast as Celeborn needs to be attractive, charismatic and a good actor if he’s going to outclass or even match Halbrand. RoP's casting has been mostly excellent so it seems likely they'll find the right guy.

Martin Csokas wasn’t great but he may be a decent actor who received bad direction.

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...hence his slow speech, but it came across as flat and with zero personality. He certainly does better in the extended edition of FOTR with his chat with Aragorn.

I hadn't heard about him having scenes filmed for TTT. Do you remember any details about them?

I watched it so my critical minutes count in the mix.

Galadriel's character has been obliterated. Well done Amazon.

...I would ask everyone to sit down with a piece of paper and write down exactly what element of the LOTR narrative is effected if Celeborn is dead and stays dead...

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well, other than being something of an example of Tolkien's liking for tales of male partners 'punching above their weight', something he rather modestly considered himself to have done with his wife [see also Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril, Aragorn/Arwen, in various mythological traditions various goddesses/nymphs etc falling for human male heroes]...

really for my money Celeborn's main role in the narrative is that of a character who acts as a complementary wise, stable 'steady eddie'/'straight man' to Galadriel's maybe more 'powerful' but also headstrong potential loose cannon... a role which, of course, in the show Elrond has more or less performed to passably good effect.

I suppose the prof himself was quite fond of having more than one character sharing certain key similarities in the story [the obvious example being the multiple 'lost heirs, possibly in exile' through Aragorn, Bard, arguably Thorin].

Two seasons in, the lack of Celeborn [outside of a single spoken sentence] is becoming something of a glaring omission in RoP. If nothing else it's really odd that Galadriel's short 'autobiography' at the beginning of the first episode didn't mention him even once.

Given the huge weight of Galadriel in the narrative to date; his character, if it actually remerges with that name, will need a substantial backstory flashback with Galadriel, his death and journey to the present.

Not to get sidetracked - but this brings up one of my biggest pet peeves about the Jackson films. Celeborn was a huge charisma vacuum in those films.

With the exception of Legolas, I really hated how Jackson depicted Elves in his films. The slow motion, the low register for speaking, the weird ethereal luminescence - all of it were choices I disagree with. Probably the most glaring, head-scratching take of all is something Jackson says in the director's commentary:

As the fellowship is escaping Moria - during the "GIVE THEM A MOMENT FOR PITY'S SAKE!" scene, Jackson recalls giving Orlando Bloom this direction (paraphrased)

"You're an immortal elf who has lived for thousands of years and you are confused by death and by the grief of your companions as its something you're not used to..." or something to that effect.

I almost fell out of my chair at home listening to it.

Perhaps Celeborn is going to get the Glorfindel treatment? Something along the lines of slain at some point in the First Age (the Nirnaeth or one of the sackings of Doriath) and then re-embodied and sent back, perhaps with some kind of message from Valinor for Galadriel?

I've also hit the limits of speculation, I reckon!

Perhaps Celeborn is going to get the Glorfindel treatment? Something along the lines of slain at some point in the First Age (the Nirnaeth or one of the sackings of Doriath) and then re-embodied and sent back, perhaps with some kind of message from Valinor for Galadriel?

I've also hit the limits of speculation, I reckon!

...the fates of the Children or the Halls of Mandos...

It was to the Halls of Mandos that the spirits of Elves were gathered to await their respective afterlives, and so Mandos was given its name of the Halls of Awaiting.
After brief respite in the Halls, the immortal Elves would be re-embodied, and return from the Halls to their kin in Aman.

Is your missing wizard the other Blue? I’m choosing to believe that the Dark Wizard is one of the two Blues until I’m shown otherwise. I hope we meet the other one.

The idea of the slain Celeborn returning a la Glorfindel is intriguing. On the one hand, it would account for Celeborn’s centuries long absence – he could hardly help being tardy if he was dead. On the other, IIRC neither the fates of the Children or the Halls of Mandos have been mentioned in RoP (nor in Jackson’s movies), so some setup would be required. I would think that the idea also precludes Glorfindel’s returning in same way, about which I am indifferent.

I wonder which Celeborn will appear: the Sinda whom Galadriel met in Doriath or the Teler born in Valinor. His ancestry probably will be as important to RoP’s story as Gil-galad’s, as in not at all. That is, we don’t need more unless we see a flashback of Galadriel and Celeborn’s meeting or life together.

It will be interesting to see how the Galadriel/Arondir relationship develops. It will surely be platonic but no doubt there will be people shipping them anyway.

Arondir needed rescuing from his berserker despair and a reason to keep going; he also needs a story. I’m happy that the writers didn’t immediately sweep Bronwyn under the rug, though she may be forgotten next season. I really liked Bronwyn.

Galafriel’s mention of her husband is like Elendil’s first season allusion to his son Anarion: a tiny strand laid down and waiting for its time to be woven into the whole. It looks like Anarion’s time will come next season. Maybe we’ll get some casting news in a year or so.

Given the context of 2024, I believe the creatives are right to emphasise the undying nature of Elves and Mans desire for immortality, that Sauron will pray on; but not to go any further. However to return to the central point. Celeborn will need to be shown to have entered the Tibetan Bardo and after an age return with a message of the Valar.

My own view would be that it would be most suitable for us to see Celeborn deep in the past with Galadriel and then only as an end game with that message, the message being more important than his return. Otherwise you have to start explaining more and more to the audience about the nature of Elven rebirth, leave it totemic and bitter sweet.

If it's going to go the way of reincarnation, then the purpose is paramount - a message, for example, as you say. Although Tolkien didn't provide much information, his re-working of Glorfindel indicates that he wasn't sent back just to say hello to some old mates - there was a task or tasks to perform. Speculating further, perhaps Celeborn will impart that a realm in Lórien must established, as a bulwark against Sauron in the centuries to come; or that she will be tested with a(nother) great temptation at some point... and so on.

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I"m not sure that there is much point to introducing Glorfindel into the show now that it's actually past the War of the Elves and Sauron (or Adar, in this case). I suppose he can still perform a role in the Councils of the Wise and in the Last Alliance of Men and Elves. In the History of Middle-earth, though, he doesn't have much to do in the Third Age until the fall of Arthedain.

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Agreed. If it's going to go the way of reincarnation, then the purpose is paramount - a message, for example, as you say. Although Tolkien didn't provide much information, his re-working of Glorfindel indicates that he wasn't sent back just to say hello to some old mates - there was a task or tasks to perform. Speculating further, perhaps Celeborn will impart that a realm in Lórien must established, as a bulwark against Sauron in the centuries to come; or that she will be tested with a(nother) great temptation at some point... and so on.

Hi OS I know you were responding to Felagund but I came back to read his response to me.

Neither of us is suggesting Glorfindel should be reintroduced into ROP but simply suggesting using the professor's final thoughts on Glorfindel be applied to the logic of Celeborns return.

I just wish the seasons appeared yearly rather than biennially. It’s a long time to wait but also, I’m not getting any younger.

Perhaps Celeborn is going to get the Glorfindel treatment? Something along the lines of slain at some point in the First Age (the Nirnaeth or one of the sackings of Doriath) and then re-embodied and sent back, perhaps with some kind of message from Valinor for Galadriel?

I've also hit the limits of speculation, I reckon!

The Eldar have a different concept of Time than mortals. When I first read LOTR I was very confused about Celeborn staying behind in Middle-earth when Galadriel left at the end of the Third Age. But what's an odd century or six when you have all of eternity (or at least until the End of Arda)?

But Celeborn said: ‘Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!’

The only hint we get is in Ceeborn's words to Aragorn when they part:

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For whatever reason, Celeborn is doomed to remain in Middle-earth when Galadriel sails west, even though he quickly "wearies" of his lordship and goes to Rivendell for his remaining years.

As for why Tolkien made that literary choice, it is to set up the ending of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

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My point is not that he made that choice but why he wrote it that way. Arwen dies in an empty Lothlorien, wherever Celeborn is.

What fascinates me about the professor is that every main character Bilbo and Frodo's story meets has deceased spouses Elrond, Thranduil, (Dwarven wives are not mentioned) and then Elrond, Treebeard, Theoden, and Denethor.

Unions are only used where there is a specific dynamic Beren, Tuor, Turin, Aragorn and Faramir the latter of which was uncharacteristic and well written in the books.

It exists in the shire but only to reflect the zeitgeist of cosy domesticity in the English Countryside.

For me, the most undeveloped union is Thingol and Melian and the character of the former which suffered from the shifting and evolution of the story. One of the most nuanced characters was the mother figure of Turin. If the story of Hurin had been fully developed as he envisioned it; as the central story of the late First Age, I suspect she would have become more and more important in driving the narrative's emotion.

One could argue this has nothing to do with the ROP. And yet the writers are aware of it in the form of Durin and Disa which is a very worthwhile extrapolation and use of the dynamic.

'Still, I think it was very sad when Master Elrond left Rivendell and the Lady left Lórien,' said Elanor. 'What happened to Celeborn? Is he very sad?'

'I expect so, dear. Elves are sad; and that's what makes them so beautiful, and why we can't see much of them. He lives in his own land as he always has done,' said Sam. 'Lórien is his land, and he loves trees.'

'No one else in the world hasn't got a Mallorn like we have, have they?' said Merry. 'Only us and Lord Celeborn.'

'So I believe,' said Sam. Secretly it was one of the greatest prides of his life. 'Well, Celeborn lives among the trees, and he is happy in his Elvish way, I don't doubt. They can afford to wait, Elves can. His time is not come yet. The Lady came to his land and now she is gone; and he has the land still. When he tires of it he can leave it. So with Legolas, he came with his people and they live in the land across the river, Ithilien if you can say that, and they've made it very lovely, according to Mr. Pippin. But he'll go to Sea one day, I don't doubt. But not while Gimli's still alive.'

I've wondered the same - even though I see the literary function that Voronwë points out re: 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'.

I take a fraction of bittersweet comfort from the abandoned 'Epilogue' to LotR, where Sam and his eldest child Elanor speak of Celeborn and the Elves (HoMe IX):

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Sam's explanation of Celeborn's situation, despite him having (temporarily) lost his treasure, is such a lovely Hobbitish way of putting something so complex, so clearly.

Whereas the LOTR took 12 years to write were published and are the author's final thoughts on the matter. It may have scholastic interest and Christopher believed he was authorised to do so, but I could never see JRRT wanting me to read his early drafts.

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I would think that as a teacher of English language and literature, these would be a good example for the evolution and freedom of thought, the writing process, and development of story. Surely as a professor he would not hide his process to the detriment of learning.