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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Azog's Original Barrel Ride
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Chen G.
Rohan

May 21, 2:23pm

Post #201 of 255 (2045 views)
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Nothing is verboten, but some things aren't looked favourably upon [In reply to] Can't Post

Belittling acclaimed filmmakers is one of them.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 21, 2:26pm)


Solicitr
Gondor


May 21, 2:31pm

Post #202 of 255 (2041 views)
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Subject [In reply to] Can't Post

Michael Bay is "acclaimed"? Wink


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

May 21, 3:08pm

Post #203 of 255 (2037 views)
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He was obviously referring to PJ. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on May 21, 3:09pm)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 21, 4:31pm

Post #204 of 255 (2031 views)
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Okay, folks, let's stop this sub-thread right here. [In reply to] Can't Post

Before it devolves further.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

May 21, 11:12pm

Post #205 of 255 (1991 views)
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I agree. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

May 25, 11:10pm

Post #206 of 255 (1527 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
PJ's Hobbit is a very intelligent movie.


Maybe, but not consistantly. Gags like smoke coming out of Radagast's ears might play well in a Loony Tune, but not so well in a live-action movie that isn't an outright parody. We also have characters surviving without serious injury falls that should have killed the hardiest Dwarf. Then there is Jackson's fast-and-loose attitude for matters of time and distance, with characters seemingly taking only a couple of days to make journeys that should take weeks (I'm looking at YOU, Legolas and Tauriel).


I think those are rather minor points, but you are free to think differently...


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 26, 1:01am

Post #207 of 255 (1521 views)
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Well, indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think those are rather minor points, but you are free to think differently...


I wouldn't call characters pulling off stunts that would be impossible without teleportation (or at least the power of rapid flight) a minor point, but to each his own.

#FidelityToTolkien


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

May 29, 3:52am

Post #208 of 255 (1257 views)
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Just ask yourself... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I think those are rather minor points, but you are free to think differently...


I wouldn't call characters pulling off stunts that would be impossible without teleportation (or at least the power of rapid flight) a minor point, but to each his own.


...how many in the general audience would care or notice such things. People like Transformers, they don't care about physical plausibility, let alone geographical plausibility (of a fictional land, nonetheless). And Elrond already did this in ROTK when he travelled from Rivendell to Gondor in a relatively short amount of time. Do you take issue with this Elrond thing as well?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29, 2:41pm

Post #209 of 255 (1197 views)
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Ya know? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...how many in the general audience would care or notice such things. People like Transformers, they don't care about physical plausibility, let alone geographical plausibility (of a fictional land, nonetheless). And Elrond already did this in ROTK when he travelled from Rivendell to Gondor in a relatively short amount of time. Do you take issue with this Elrond thing as well?


It doesn't matter to me what the general audience can be expected to know; it's enough that I know and I find it a bit insulting that Peter expects me to just accept this. At least with Elrond, we don't have a clear idea of when he left from Rivendell (for Rohan, not Gondor--though he doesn't seem to have continued on with King Theoden's forces to Gondor).

#FidelityToTolkien


Solicitr
Gondor


May 29, 4:55pm

Post #210 of 255 (1188 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have hoped that any film of Tolkien's work would be aimed at a somewhat higher intellectual plane than Transformers.


Chen G.
Rohan

May 29, 6:12pm

Post #211 of 255 (1180 views)
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There, I agree with ya [In reply to] Can't Post

 


skyofcoffeebeans
Lorien

May 29, 8:55pm

Post #212 of 255 (1163 views)
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Agreed. These aren't the same things at all [In reply to] Can't Post

And I don't care if the general audience doesn't care. It looks dumb.

One doesn't have to reach quite this far to depend the worst parts of these movies. It's ok to like the Hobbit movies and admit that some parts are not that great.


Chen G.
Rohan

May 29, 10:04pm

Post #213 of 255 (1152 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

The key is not losing the forest for the trees.


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

May 30, 1:22am

Post #214 of 255 (1128 views)
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I do ''admit'' that... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And I don't care if the general audience doesn't care. It looks dumb.

One doesn't have to reach quite this far to depend the worst parts of these movies. It's ok to like the Hobbit movies and admit that some parts are not that great.


...yet I see nothing ''dumb'' about this, especially as the same has been done in the earlier trilogy, which is ironically so ''acclaimed'', by, and I quote, ''people who apparently have never seen a decent adaptation or a decent war movie''.

Re the first point: ''Now, there are all kinds of technical and logistical problems in the sequence, such as how Viggo, Orlando, and John got from Dunharrow to Umbar without any horses (unlike the books, all the horses run away and don't come back) but I suppose if Elrond can ride across mountains and hundreds of miles in a day or so, then they can run all the way to the coast in a couple hours. (Or they borrow zombie horses, I guess.) But those are really inconsequential, compared to the big problem at the center. And that is that there are no living Men to be rallied, no villagers, no fisherfolk, no POWs to free from the oars of the Corsairs' dromonds, no local lord to bring his own soldiers to the aid of Gondor — none of the rest of the people whose absence Pippin's companions in Gondor didn't lament after the arrival of allies which didn't happen in the movie. So, since they couldn't handle the politics of Middle-earth, J/B/W were forced to come up with some other solution to the problem. And that was to make the Dead utterly mundane''.


(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on May 30, 1:23am)


Solicitr
Gondor


May 30, 5:08am

Post #215 of 255 (1108 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

There are gradations. As in "dumb" and "dumber."


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

May 30, 9:12am

Post #216 of 255 (1079 views)
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I would argue... [In reply to] Can't Post

that there is a point in which it becomes so ''dumb'' (by this definition, anyway) that there is no point in ''scaling'' it. Does it matter whether a 20 kg weight is dropped from a height of 100 or 200 metres on someone’s head? It will kill him either way.


(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on May 30, 9:13am)


The Dude
Bree

May 30, 11:52am

Post #217 of 255 (1054 views)
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Very odd debating style [In reply to] Can't Post

Last time I looked you were a defender of "The Hobbit" films. Your line of argument here seems to be that "nothing dumb" exists in those films (1) but if it did it would exist in equal measure in the "LotR" trilogy (2), so everyone who prefers the latter over the former must then be a hypocrite (3).

Well, accusation of hypocrisy on their own always form a weak basis to build as the foundation of one’s case; whether it comes to political, cultural, or philosophical arguments. Criticizing the “LotR” films for dumbing down things does not really help the “Hobbit” films in any way. And I would not call solicitr a huge fan of the original trilogy to begin with, so you basically arguing against a strawman here.

The point where we have to agree to disagree, it seems, is you believe that there is no difference whatsoever in the frequency and quality of slapstick/dumb scenes between the original trilogy and “the Hobbit” films, whereas others (solicitr and me included) consider this to be slightly reductive.

PS: Aragorn and the Grey Company never made it to Umbar. Their destination was Pelagir.


skyofcoffeebeans
Lorien

May 30, 8:08pm

Post #218 of 255 (1021 views)
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I would argue that [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no degree of comparison in the absurdity of Legolas defying gravity via falling blocks onscreen vs the offscreen travels of other characters on horseback or on foot. It is an untenable point to make and an absurd basis for a defense of what is almost objectively a very low point, if not the lowest point, in Peter Jackson’s filmography.

We don’t have to love everything about the things we love. It’s ok for there to be flaws. I don’t see you defending your love for Legolas defying gravity, just tearing apart the validity of other people’s opinions of it.


Noria
Gondor

May 31, 12:35pm

Post #219 of 255 (902 views)
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As I said above, [In reply to] Can't Post

In LotR, both book and movie, Legolas is able to walk on top of deep snow without sinking, just one of the things about Elves that defy the laws of nature that we know. Tolkien wrote them that way.

So, why should the laws of gravity, already contravened in the case of snow, apply strictly anywhere else where an Elf is concerned?

With those qualities of Elves lurking in the back of my mind, I had no difficulty accepting Legolas’ stunt with the falling stones. Like most of his feats, it amused me.


Solicitr
Gondor


May 31, 7:47pm

Post #220 of 255 (848 views)
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That being the case [In reply to] Can't Post

then why didn't Thranduil's Elves, or Haldir's force at Helm's Deep, perform each like Marvel superheroes? They would have mopped up the orcs in jig time. But, no, Legolas and Legolas only was, apparently, bitten by a radioactive giant spider.


Paulo Gabriel
Lorien

Jun 1, 4:40am

Post #221 of 255 (794 views)
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Thank you for sparing me the time... [In reply to] Can't Post

to counter more absurdities.


Noria
Gondor

Jun 1, 12:30pm

Post #222 of 255 (727 views)
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LOL - good point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
then why didn't Thranduil's Elves, or Haldir's force at Helm's Deep, perform each like Marvel superheroes? They would have mopped up the orcs in jig time. But, no, Legolas and Legolas only was, apparently, bitten by a radioactive giant spider.


I can't argue with that except - cinema.

But my original point stands.


Chen G.
Rohan

Jun 1, 5:53pm

Post #223 of 255 (697 views)
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That's right: Cinema [In reply to] Can't Post

I kind of like Legolas' superhero moments. I just think they need to be delivered in greater moderation than was the case in The Battle of the Five Armies.

You can have the walking up the crumbling tower moment in isolation (I happen to think its really cool) but when its delivered as the cherry on top of Legolas' bat-riding, tower-leaping, Troll-riding shenanigans, it gets just a bit too much.

But otherwise? I like Legolas having one or two Superhero moments per film: its fun, and it adds a dash of superhero/martial arts into films which are already such an enjoyable cocktail of genres.

Its also nice when occasionally they DON'T go big with him, like when he has what's really just a street brawl with Bolg in The Desolation of Smaug: just one more reason why that film's the best.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jun 1, 5:57pm)


FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien


Jun 1, 7:59pm

Post #224 of 255 (667 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

that the Legolas v. Bolg fight feels grounded in a way that some other fight scenes in the Hobbit trilogy do not. Legolas v. Bolg is kinetic and brutal in a way that recalls Aragorn vs. Lurtz and some other LOTR moments. Same with Thorin v. Azog in TBOFA.

Ranking the Hobbit films is difficult for me. DOS is probably the most exciting from start to finish, and has a very quick tempo and roller-coaster feel. But the first film adapts many great moments from the book very well and I appreciate its emphasis upon Bilbo and the dwarves. I'm inclined to think that TBOFA is the weakest but the last 30 minutes or so are very good, and the final scenes are excellent. And Armitage gives his best performance in this film, I'd say.


Chen G.
Rohan

Jun 1, 8:18pm

Post #225 of 255 (659 views)
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About the same as what I think [In reply to] Can't Post

The Desolation of Smaug is the best "ride" from start to finish. That said, its also a film that genuinely asks "is this quest worth it? Is it a noble idea to begin with? Is it a wise endeavor?" and, right up to the cliffhanger ending, avoids any form of easy answer, which I love.

You couldn't do that with The Lord of the Rings, and indeed very few films of this kind have ever tried to do so, and those that have mostly came across as a strawman.

The Battle of the Five Armies is the weakest in many respects, but because it contains so many of the climactic and truly powerful and poignant moments of the trilogy, I would say that elevates it over the first film.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jun 1, 8:19pm)

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