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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
May 10 2020, 4:51am
Post #151 of 255
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LOTR was also full of CGI and physical irrealism.
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Regarding ''The Return of the King'': ''For what would really have happened to Filmamir if he had been brought home in the implausible fashion of the movie, and why it's one of the more miraculous events in a whole three hours of improbables, read:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/20/1069027263353.html?from=storyrhs
and
http://www.neosoft.com/~iaep/pages/protected/jissues/j1805/j1805p289.html
But they had to excise Imrahil and all the other "non-essential" characters of the book, in order to give Viggo and CGI more screentime, so they had to get him home somehow, I guess.''
http://web.archive.org/web/20090614045920/http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/arthedain/promises/promises_kept.html
(This post was edited by Paulo Gabriel on May 10 2020, 4:52am)
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
May 10 2020, 5:12am
Post #152 of 255
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So, bottom line, is it wrong...
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to call them ''The Dead Men of Erech'', like Joan Barger does?
Also, did you really write down manually all those book passages? 
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Chen G.
Gondor
May 10 2020, 11:08am
Post #153 of 255
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Even the most grounded action films occasionally slip into the realm of physical implausibility. In Nolan's The Dark Knight, Bruce really, REALLY shouldn't have survived gliding down unto the roof of a car, which is to say nothing of Rachel. In Apocalypto, Jaguar Paw really shouldn't be capable of sprinting as he does after taking an arrow to the ribs.
Its fine because it happens relativelly infrequently over the course of the films.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on May 10 2020, 11:08am)
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Solicitr
Gondor
May 10 2020, 11:17am
Post #154 of 255
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I've been transcribing a lot of Tolkien lately. 
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Solicitr
Gondor
May 10 2020, 12:59pm
Post #155 of 255
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The Dark Knight is "grounded?" Now, I'm as much a Nolan fan as the next guy, but "realism" is not exactly his hallmark.
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Solicitr
Gondor
May 10 2020, 1:06pm
Post #156 of 255
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Isn't that a bit all-or-nothing, Paulo? I mean, it's valid for example to point out that Dog Food A contains 50% filler but Dog Food B only contains 25%. Across equivalent runtimes, Jackson's LR contains far fewer teetering staircases than TH does.
I do think that that wasn't precisely the Dude's point when he brought it up, though: in comparing two silly and physics-defying scenes he was observing that the Teetering Stair was pulled off with more aplomb and at least the feel of (spurious) realism, the thing had mass and inertia, as opposed to Goblin-Town, which had all the physical heft of a Roadrunner cartoon.
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Chen G.
Gondor
May 10 2020, 11:04pm
Post #157 of 255
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You really don't like things, do you?
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Solicitr
Gondor
May 11 2020, 12:14am
Post #158 of 255
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my idol is H L Mencken.
But I did point out that I AM a Nolan fan. I like just about every picture he's done. But his ouvre leans towards 'magical realism,' not gritty Mean Streets capital-R Realism.
(This post was edited by Solicitr on May 11 2020, 12:16am)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 11 2020, 4:44am
Post #159 of 255
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'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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The Dude
Rivendell
May 11 2020, 2:58pm
Post #160 of 255
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False dichotomies and the scale of plausability.
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Solicitr already summed up what I am about to say:
It is a little bit silly to argue that there exists a clear-cut dichotomy between realistic and unrealistic films, and therefore, if a film contains implausible scenes it must belong to the latter category and that's the end of the discussion. This sort of reminds me of the reductio ad absurdum that LotR is a story about elves and giant eagles and, as such, one cannot complain about any implausible or historically-absurd scenes in the films...because it is just fantasy, right?
There is, of course, in every film a sliding scale of plausibility. And the same goes for real life. If I were to tell you three implausible stories - I recently had a fist-fight with Mike Tyson (1), the Queen of England (2), and I grew wings and flew to the moon (3) - would you consider them all implausible in the same way, or would you not say that one of them is even more implausible that the others?
That is part of the reason why I brought up the staircairs scene in FotR: Is it implausible that a staircase would collapse and descend like that? Sure. But how on earth is that scene as implausible as Thorin's company surfing down into a chasm, at least 600 feet deep, on a wooden framework?
Addendum: I would not say that I hate the Hobbit films. If I were to use an adjective to describe my feelings it would be indifferent. I sometimes wonder what is worse...
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Noria
Gondor
May 12 2020, 1:48pm
Post #161 of 255
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I don’t disagree that The Hobbit movies had nothing of the cultural and cinematic impact of the LotR trilogy. How could they? Why should they? That ground was already broken and by the time TH films were made, LotR was a thing of the past, a part of cinematic history. To the non-Tolkien reading public, Tolkien and Middle-earth were no longer new, exciting and trendy. I doubt that it was ever really going to matter what PJ made of The Hobbit as far as the media were concerned. He was no longer the unknown director, the wunderkind from New Zealand and there was much talk of him going back to the same well and so on. So TH trilogy turned out to be a set of very commercially successful movies that a lot of people enjoyed and there is nothing wrong with that.
That is not to say that another lot of people were not genuinely disappointed with TH movies, whether it was because they wanted to see something more like TH book , more like the LotR trilogy or something else.
As for the possibility of a smaller and more literal adaptation of TH, we will have to agree to disagree. I have always been quite convinced that, given the immense popularity of LotR and the huge amount of money that it made, it only makes sense that Warner Brothers must have wanted to duplicate that success. That’s what Hollywood does. The studio put up a ton of money to get these movies made and needed to recoup that and make a profit. The original concept of a bridge film and a single Hobbit movie had been replaced by a plan for two Hobbit movies before del Toro left the project, but I don’t know why or what that Hobbit movie would have been like.
Also, anyone who had seen LotR must have realized that when PJ returned to Middle-earth there would surely be over-the-top action sequences, juvenile humour, extensive use of special effects, characters and scenes devised by the writers, occasionally awkward dialogue and so on. Just like there was in LotR. So no surprises there.
As with LotR, in addition to all the attributes that I love, there are things about TH movies that I don’t care for, choices made by the film makers with which I disagree. But to be honest, some of the changes to LotR bothered me more than the revamped Hobbit. Maybe you found the TH movies interminable and full of noise, but I did not.
But overall, I love the prequels in part because while they are of the same family as LotR, they are their own movies with their own distinct tone. In them, the little book (which is great in itself) became a marvellous and marvel-filled journey back into Middle-earth. While I probably would have enjoyed it, I can’t regret that little movie version of TH that was never to be.
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FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien
May 12 2020, 6:38pm
Post #162 of 255
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I have made peace with the Hobbit films.
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It's true they didn't have the cultural impact of the LOTR films - but the LOTR films were a once in a generation phenom akin to Star Wars 1977 in terms of the cultural impact, so that was to be expected. Although they lack cultural impact, I don't think they are akin to something like the Marvel films which I think will also prove to have a short shelf-life. There is nothing as sublime as Freeman/Serkis' Riddles in the Dark performance, or the Lonely Mountain song, or Armitage's performance in BOTFA in those films. This is my bias as a Tolkien fan, but as flawed as PJ's Hobbit films are, I would rather watch them than 95% of their peers in the fantasy/action/science fiction genre.
There are aspects of TH trilogy that frustrate me, there are aspects I love. It's not as good as PJ's LOTR trilogy, but that comparison was always going to set up TH trilogy to fail. TH film trilogy is also inferior to Tolkien's original work, but it's also a separate experience that takes nothing away from what I love about the book. I anticipate myself rewatching TH much less than LOTR over the years, but, on the whole I'm glad they exist and that we were given an opportunity to revisit Middle Earth on film, even if it should have been through 2 films instead of 3. I hope Amazon takes notes on what worked and what didn't with PJ's TH trilogy.
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Chen G.
Gondor
May 12 2020, 7:11pm
Post #163 of 255
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I don't think they are akin to something like the Marvel films which I think will also prove to have a short shelf-life. There is nothing as sublime as Freeman/Serkis' Riddles in the Dark performance, or the Lonely Mountain song, or Armitage's performance in BOTFA in those films.
This.
I like MCU films only insofar as they're outright comedies. When they're not, the lighthearted, sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek tone isn't something I appreciate in movies.
The Middle Earth films are, if nothing else, earnst.
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Solicitr
Gondor
May 12 2020, 7:59pm
Post #164 of 255
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is why the best of them all isn't even MCU: Deadpool
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 13 2020, 3:44am
Post #165 of 255
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Black Panther was a cultural phenomenom in a different way
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Otherwise I agree with you about the Marvel films.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Noria
Gondor
May 13 2020, 2:11pm
Post #166 of 255
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Frogmorton, I mostly agree with you.
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I’m glad that you are able to enjoy TH movies though unlike you, I expect to watch them as often as I do LotR going forward. For me, even more so with The Hobbit than LotR, the book is the book, the movies are the movies and I can appreciate both.
More generally, as for the MCU movies, in my world there is a place for well-executed films that are simply entertaining and not intended to be anything else, and also for well-made and acted movies that have something more serious to convey in a straightforward way. Not every human being, even if intelligent, is an intellectual or desires to be, and not every film needs to be an esoteric piece of art. I have always disliked James Bond but don’t deny that they are good entertainment for those who do appreciate them.
On my own, I never would have gone to see a MCU movie but my husband (despite his three univerity degrees) had a nostalgic interest from his days of reading Marvel comics as a child. So we saw Ironman and somewhat to my surprise, I enjoyed it as I have most of the MCU films that I’ve seen since. The pyrotechnics become old but there are human stories being told there too. With the conclusion of whatever phase ended with Endgame, I think I am done though.
I agree with Voronwe that Black Panther was as much a cultural phenomenon as a movie, a little like the vastly superior LotR. But my favourite may actually be Dr. Strange with Benedict Cumberbatch, because it was, well, so strange. I also rather liked the crazy energy of Thor: Ragnarok, directed by the new wunderkind from New Zealand, Taika Waititi, who also memorably voiced a minor character. Time will tell if the MCU movie have a “shelf life” of any duration.
Has every well regarded actor working today been in a MCU movie yet, as has been predicted in the media?  A number of LotR/Hobbit actors have appeared, including Cate Blanchett, Martin Freeman, Benedict Cumberbatch, Andy Serkis, Evangeline Lilly, Hugo Weaving, Lee Pace and Karl Urban, to name a few,
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 13 2020, 3:34pm
Post #167 of 255
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Jackson's 'Hobbit' as Its Own Thing
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I do like the Hobbit films, but I also have some trouble separating them from the book. Even looking at them as a stand-alone trilogy, my enjoyment is hindered somewhat by the kind of lazy shortcuts common in action films as well as the cartoon physics displayed in sequences such as the escape from Goblin-town. I never like it when a filmmaker disrespects the intelligence of the viewer.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 13 2020, 3:35pm)
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Solicitr
Gondor
May 13 2020, 4:40pm
Post #168 of 255
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I never like it when a filmmaker disrespects the intelligence of the viewer.
Exactly. I don't like being treated like I'm stupid.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 14 2020, 3:18am
Post #169 of 255
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Jackson's Hobbit films just aren't what I would have done with the book, with the exception of the Good Morning and (for the most part) Riddles scenes (and the fact that Martin Freeman is definitely "MY" Bilbo. I think a single film, very faithful to the book (more so than the LOTR films) with only slight allusions to the Dol Guldur plotline, could have been an extraordinary masterpiece, at least in my eyes. Instead we go three films that have many scenes that I love (including the single best "invented" scene in the six films, the Feast of Starlight), but much that I just roll my eyes at (the cheesy parts of the Tauriel-Kili love story as much as cartoon physics that you reference).
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
May 14 2020, 10:12pm
Post #170 of 255
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but my husband (despite his three univerity degrees)
...but I always pictured you as a guy. 
Guess this habit will have to change.
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
May 15 2020, 12:24pm
Post #171 of 255
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PJ's Hobbit is a very intelligent movie. So is LOTR.
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Noria
Gondor
May 15 2020, 2:07pm
Post #172 of 255
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I could be a guy and still have a husband.
But as it happens, I am a woman who first read and fell in love with LotR and The Hobbit just over fifty years ago, so an old woman
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Solicitr
Gondor
May 15 2020, 2:32pm
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PJ's LR treats the audience' intelligence with such respect, he doesn't think they can handle Saruman's actual motivations and plots - that would be too complicated for our little monkey brains - and reduces him to a mere minion of Sauron. It treats us with such respect that we can't handle Rohan having as many as three settlements, and since Dunharrow has been erased we're supposed to swallow Theoden evacuating his civilian population towards the Fords and Isengard. We are also supposed to buy that the Steward of Gondor is such a dribbling idiot that he refuses to light his long-prepared and expensively-maintained war-beacons or call for (sworn) aid. After Entmoot has found no reason to march, Treebeard does a volte-face through a silly and illogical trick by Pippin (added to the beacons, that's twice the young Took overcomes ally-stupidity to bring in allies)*. Since the audience can't be expected to swallow mercy, morality or the implications of an incarnate Ainu, Gandalf stops Legolas shooting Saruman simply because "we need information" (not that this "information" was anything anyone with the brains Eru gave a rabbit wouldn't have known anyway). Aragorn looks into the Palantir- not to challenge Sauron, or draw him out, or goad him into a premature attack (already ruined by another dumb scene) or even to gather intelligence, but apparently for no reason save to get his bling broken. Yeah, the Dark Lord's response to the re-appearance of the Heir of Elendil and his Sword after three thousand years is to diss his girlfriend.**
We are then supposed to swallow Elrond traveling 900 miles in 48 hours, and this as a consequence of the biggest insult of them all, the "Arwen is dying" blather and the "vision of my kid"- PJ is addicted to instantaneous changes of mind based on the most trivial of "revelations." Apparently Arwen is just as dumb as Treebeard- she seriously never considered that getting married carried with it significant odds of childbearing? Really?
And that's even before the Osgiliation, and Faramir's inexplicable reversal of position based on his sudden discovery that Frodo (a) has serious sanity issues and (b) will likely hand over the Ring to the first Evil Minion he comes across.
Yes- a very great deal of PJ's monkeying with the plot was precisely to dumb it down , on the apparent assumption that his audience rode the short bus to the theater. He insulted me and he insulted every one of you.
_____________________________
*Actually, this is principally due to the paint-by-numbers screenwriting dictum, "our heroes must overcome obstacles at every turn." Ergo, Treebeard, Denethor and Faramir are all recast as stumbling blocks who need to be made to "see the light" by a Principal Cast Member. To that list add Elrond and Theoden.
**About whom Sauron would have known nothing anyway- but then, everybody's knowing about everything (except when PJ's plot requires they don't) is another area where he assumes we all left our thinking caps at home.
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Noria
Gondor
May 15 2020, 2:35pm
Post #174 of 255
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If not for the heavy overshadowing effect of the LotR movies, I have no doubt that a wonderful, more literal adaptation of TH could have been made, maybe even by Peter Jackson. I would have wanted the White Council though.
I also agree about the Feast of Starlight scene and the subsequent romance. My objection to the latter is more about how Tauriel, who started out as a rebel against Thranduil¡¯s isolationism, became only about the romance with Kili.
As for the physics of TH movies, I can¡¯t recall his name but do you or anyone else remember the long vanished poster who was a physicist or an engineer? He wrote several very interesting posts demonstrating in considerable detail that that the Dwarves fall into the chasm in Goblintown, as well as some other controversial bits of action in TH movies, were actually within the realm of the possible.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 15 2020, 3:12pm
Post #175 of 255
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PJ's Hobbit is a very intelligent movie.
Maybe, but not consistantly. Gags like smoke coming out of Radagast's ears might play well in a Loony Tune, but not so well in a live-action movie that isn't an outright parody. We also have characters surviving without serious injury falls that should have killed the hardiest Dwarf. Then there is Jackson's fast-and-loose attitude for matters of time and distance, with characters seemingly taking only a couple of days to make journeys that should take weeks (I'm looking at YOU, Legolas and Tauriel).
To Noria: Yeah, maybe the Goblin-town stunts were survivable, but they were about as narratively plausible as Indiana Jones' survival of an atomic bomb by sheltering in a refrigerator.
#FidelityToTolkien
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 15 2020, 3:17pm)
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