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squire
Nevle-flah


Jan 21, 9:01pm

Post #26 of 91 (388 views)
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Yes, I only recently saw... [In reply to] Can't Post

...in the History of Middle-earth volume, the text he'd written in the The Lord of the Rings to explain how Gollum could have let Bilbo have the Ring so casually in the original Riddles episode.

If I remember, it was along the lines of, Gandalf telling Frodo in Ch. 2 that the Ring gnaws at you and if you hold it long enough you begin to wish to pass it on to another person for their torment and your relief. This was then going to explain why Bilbo passed the Ring on to Frodo so easily in Chapter 1!

Thus Tolkien's genuine surprise to find his revised Chapter 5 in The Hobbit, which explained things much more consistently but at the cost of reprinting the earlier book - something he'd really not expected when he wrote out the new scene in 1947. As you say, he had to go back to LotR at once and eliminate all the nonsense about freely passing the Ring on...

One has to wonder about an alternative timeline, whereby Tolkien publishes "Fellowship" in 1954 with the original bit still in it about passing the Ring on because it was so painful to possess. Then in the next year (rather than in 1951) Allen & Unwin cheerfully publish the new edition of The Hobbit, with Tolkien's revised Ch. 5 in it, which they'd never consulted with him about inserting into the text. It would be more than a little inconsistent with the new book's more benign angle on Ring ownership!

How quickly would Tolkien have been able to convince his publishers that "Fellowship's" Chapter 2 needed to be revised and the book re-issued? And how rare would the first edition be and how unknown to readers now, much as the first edition Hobbit is!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jan 21, 11:21pm

Post #27 of 91 (378 views)
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Master Plan vs. What You Can Live With [In reply to] Can't Post

In my own experience as a college textbook editor working with college professors, there was just never enough time to get everything we wanted in any master plan. Professors have classes, papers to grade, doctoral students to supervise, families to spend time with, vacations to take, relatives who die, etc, and given time constraints, everything was negotiated. So it could have been something like:

Editor: "Hi Tollers. We really, really, really need the final revisions for Ch 3 from you by 4 pm, 23 March, or we'll miss our place in the publishing queue and have to wait 6 months or more to get back in. They can't fire you, of course, but they can fire me, so this is really important to live with things as is. Please help me on this! I know it's not perfect, but it's the best we can get at this point. PS: if you want to keep the fox, that's fine, but as we agreed, you'll delete the pink dancing elephants. Thanks."


Solicitr
NahoR


Jan 22, 12:26am

Post #28 of 91 (372 views)
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Unwin [In reply to] Can't Post

didn't edit Tolkien at all, except to the extent they felt some of the Appendices were too long and T had to make abridged versions (and the decision to break it up into 3 vols).

But Tolkien, now, that was another matter....

JRRT and GA&U signed the publishing contract in November 1952, under which T was supposed to submit the typescript - of the whole LR - by March 1953. Naturally, he was late. The process then moved to the galley stage, where the printers set up the printing plates for FR and ran off a trial run, which was then sent back to T for proofreading. Of course, T couldn't confine himself to merely correcting typos! As CT remarked, no work of JRRT's was "finished" until it was literally taken out of his hands.

However, T was very careful to make sure that any replacement passages took up exactly the same number of lines as that replaced, otherwise the whole chapter would have to have been reset.

You can run through Hammond & Scull for all these proof-stage changes; the only ones I can recall off-hand are Zirak-zigil for earlier Zirakinbar, and a new passage in 'The Taming of Smeagol' describing the new, much longer path for the great thunderstorm from the Emyn Muil to Helm's Deep, since Frodo's timeline had shifted relative to the action in Rohan and Tolkien hadn't fixed the storm problem before now.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 22, 9:53am

Post #29 of 91 (331 views)
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I think that's the explanation I'm looking for [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Perhaps the idea of readers complaining that they couldn't get into The Lord of the Rings, or didn't like it until they got to Book II, or found the whole beginning too juvenile for words, is a more recent one, postdating Tolkien's thoughts and designs by about two or three generations now. I daresay - follow me closely here - that the vast majority of adults these days who try to read The Lord of the Rings for the first time have not just put down The Hobbit and are now looking about for another book about Bilbo and the hobbits.

But that's how I read it - or rather, that's how the books were read to me by my mother, when I was about 7 or 8. We listened to The Hobbit, loved it, and soon enough were promised we could hear another book from the same world. I still remember my angry tears when my big brother snidely informed me that the new book would not have Bilbo as its hero, but some new hobbit I didn't know, called Frodo.

In short, in the early 1950s, for all that Tolkien knew he'd written a vastly more important and adult book than The Hobbit, he nevertheless also knew that he had readers out there, some who had grown from children to young adults in the meantime, who did expect "Hobbit II". I believe the Prof realized they would need to be (or would be grateful for being) gently eased, not booted, out of Bilbo's quasi-comic mode and into Frodo and Aragorn's not-at-all-comic mode, just as he had done for himself in the act of writing the book.


That seems a likely explanation. It reminds me that how we interact with Tolkien's books is partly to do with our prior experiences and environment at the time. There's bound to be some influences common to generations, but of course individual circumstances play out too. This is what makes it interesting and refreshing to hear from people who don't normally post. I can learn more about Tolkien's works in various ways, but what I can't do it to read LOTR as it comes out (maybe someone her did that - you'd have to be in your late seventies, I suppose?). Or to come to the books with other things going on it their lives, whether that's via Harry Potter rather than via Narnia, or via the films, video games etc etc.

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 22, 9:58am)


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 22, 10:31am

Post #30 of 91 (329 views)
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Phew - got stuck in the 'reply' box there, just escaped & can now add the rest.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose I came to LOTR in the easiest possible way: I'd read The Hobbit, and the other books you might expect for a child interested in speculative fiction in the 'seventies' (C S Lewis, Alan Garner, Penelope Lively, Ursula LeGuin etc.) So I was looking for something that I might have phrased as "like The Hobbit but more grown up".

For that reason I didn't get squire's full "BIGWIT" problem (Bilbo Is Great, Who Is This?"). It seemed mildly disconcerting to me for Tolkien to shoo Bilbo away and have this Bigwit, Frodo, who takes a while to warm to as a protagonist. But it wasn't too upsetting - indeed, I think I had a bit of a wish as a reader to get out of the Shire and on with the adventure. But I think I can sympathise with squire's feeling of "BIGWIT" because I remember clearly opening my eagerly-awaited Silmarillion as soon as it published and suffering from severe FIGWRATH ("Frodo Is Great, We Require A Tale of Hobbits!"). I didn't manage to read the Silmarillion until I joined the Reading Room and some joker called CuriousG cheekily suggested that I lead the first chapter of a read-through of it. Obviously, I had no idea what I was doing (My questions were things like "Who are all these Valar? Do I have to remember who is married to who and who is responsible for what? Do I need an org chart? Is it significant that they're all paired up but there's no 'Melkorina'?"). I think that was something of a benefit in a way - if there's one thing the Reading Room responds well to on the whole, it's someone asking for explanations. We tend to run at slightly more than one explanation per poster, after which the discussion tends to take care of itself. I suppose though that this experience leaves me a bit baffled when people say they can't lead a discussion because they don't know enough.

After a while of course our Silmarillion read-though got to The Flight Of The Noldor and I was all FIG-ABS! (which means "Feanor Is Great - A Book Saved": whether Feanor does or does not have sexy abs is probably a more specialized discussion than I want to get into here Wink)

Anyway, I'm very pleased to have had squire's explanation for why the early LOTR chapters might be as they are, and so I say TRRIGERR! ("The Reading Room Is Great: Excellent Reading Room!").

Oops, should that have had a Trrigerr warning?

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


Solicitr
NahoR


Jan 22, 2:45pm

Post #31 of 91 (316 views)
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Okay, that's interesting, [In reply to] Can't Post

because I never suffered either BIGWIT nor FIGWRATH.

Maybe because I came to the books both earlier, in time, and slightly later, in age. I was led to The Hobbit because I had read all of Baum's Oz books and asked the librarian if she had "anything else like that." But since what the library had was a first or early second-edition Hobbit, with no blurb advertising the LR, it was some time before I became aware there was a sequel! Wow! And while I remember being delighted by the very hobbity "eleventy-one," I never had a problem with leaving Bilbo in peaceful retirement and going off with his young cousin.

Sil. I had been expecting for a long time, and even had a touch of inside information as to its contents, and since I loved reading Greek and Norse mythology (and the LR appendices) I didn't mind the 'heigh stile' in the least.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 22, 6:02pm

Post #32 of 91 (304 views)
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It would also be interesting to compare notes with people who saw the (PJ) film before they read the book [In reply to] Can't Post

Our current chapter and the other material getting our heroes from Unexpected Party to Bree was heavily edited by the film makers, so maybe it was a surprise to come several pre-Bree chapters it in the book? I wonder whether people found it a welcome surprise, or whether, instead of BIGWIT or FIGWRATH they felt some Bree Is Great - This Is Too Slow
(maybe I'll not give that one an acronym...)

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jan 22, 6:25pm

Post #33 of 91 (305 views)
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ARU [In reply to] Can't Post

Acronyms are us. Smile

I had a BIGWIT reaction on my first read of LOTR, being slightly irritated that Bilbo was now too old for a quest once we find him in Rivendell, and I was supposed to care about this Frodo guy. But I think I started liking Frodo somewhere around Moria or Lorien, and then started liking the other hobbits in The Two Towers where they had more "stage time," so I got over BIGWIT, but yeah, there was something vaguely disappointing about the initial transition from The Hobbit to LOTR.

It's a good thing the Reading Room dragged you through The Silmarillion, kicking and screaming, because it's like eating your vegetables--it's good for you: SIGFU. That was the first read-through that I led, I think, and it was fun because I learned so much from other people about stuff that I thought I already knew.

As I recall, my initial reaction to The Sil was excitement to find out more about the mysterious world hinted at in LOTR (Gondolin, Luthien, early Sauron), and I wasn't too concerned about leaving hobbits out of the story, but I didn't quite like how Elves could be bad. I think I am Sam-like as in "Three is Company:" it feels good to be around Elves because they're all good people, and better than mortals. Feanor, his sons, Thingol: I didn't like having my bubble burst. But I guess I got over that too, because seeing Elves at their worst made me appreciate them more in LOTR.

I'm not sure about Feanor's abs except via extrapolation: since he was better than everyone at everything, I'm sure he had the best abs in Valinor. The untold story of why he left Valinor was because Melkor's most grievous act was burning down Feanor's favorite gym. The Two Trees were just collateral damage.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 22, 6:48pm

Post #34 of 91 (299 views)
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"SIGFU" had me worried for a moment ;) [In reply to] Can't Post

Like this:

Quote
Oscar: I hate little notes on my pillow. Like this morning. Were all out of cornflakes. F.U. It took me three hours to figure out that F.U. was Felix Unger. Its not your fault, Felix. Its a rotten combination.
(The Odd Couple, 1968 movie)


~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 9:51am

Post #35 of 91 (237 views)
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How do you imagine the countryside in which this chapter takes place? [In reply to] Can't Post

How do you imagine the countryside in which this chapter takes place? Anecdotally, I find that different people imagine things very differently indeed. I find that rather interesting - it's easy for each of us to assume that we are the reference person, and everyone else is interpreting things much as we do. (or perhaps I should write I used to find it easy to assume I was the Reference Person - my own argument must mean that I can't safely speak for a 'we' here!) But I discover that people have wildly different ideas, and I find it interesting to learn about how they think (and, of course, adopt any of their interpretations I fancy!).

For Tolkien's countryside my belief so far is that I think that some people imagine specific places they know; others imagine something more generic (drawn presumably from a sort of internal mood board of what they've seen either in real life or in pictures, films etc.). Other people perhaps have the feeling that there might have been a valley somewhere, and a hollow tree - but they've been concentrating on other aspects of the writing. Which is fine of course: I don't see that there can be a definitive 'right' answer, or a need for competitiveness about who imagines things best! So please do feel it's OK to say whatever it is you personally imagine.

As I said in the starter post, I don't see Tolkien writing long descriptive passages - so our different imaginations are free to be recruited in their different ways. In a way, this subthread would be a sort of companion to the one a while ago in which we discussed what we thought Goldberry looked like. I got the impression that some of us could easily brief an artist or cast an actor, or find a picture that's what they imagine. Others of us might easily cast a singer, because Goldberry to them was a lot about how she sounded. And others had other impressions, or no coherent impression at all.
As a separate point, but perhaps one that is related - do we know what Tolkien imagined? Specific places? Mood board of generic countryside? Something else? Or perhaps we don't know from Tolkien himself, but have some guesses. But perhaps there are people very familiar with any studies that have been done.

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 23, 9:59am)


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 9:57am

Post #36 of 91 (234 views)
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That was a *big* BIGWIT, if you didn't warm to Frodo until Moria or Lorien [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I had a BIGWIT* reaction on my first read of LOTR, being slightly irritated that Bilbo was now too old for a quest once we find him in Rivendell, and I was supposed to care about this Frodo guy. But I think I started liking Frodo somewhere around Moria or Lorien, and then started liking the other hobbits in The Two Towers where they had more "stage time," so I got over BIGWIT, but yeah, there was something vaguely disappointing about the initial transition from The Hobbit to LOTR.

[*BIGWIT - "Bilbo Is Great Who Is This" - a negative reaction to finding out that Bilbo won't be major character of the story. It's also an acronym we've just made up for fun, so is of no importance whatsoever]


~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 2:55pm

Post #37 of 91 (208 views)
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Yes, and I only began to like him then because Gollum did, precious.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 3:09pm

Post #38 of 91 (212 views)
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While Tolkien was probably thinking of Oxfordshire [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking of something more generic on my first read. I grew up in a desert countryside (tumbleweeds and scrub brushes), and before that, we lived in suburban southern California, which means lawns, driveways, shrubs, a few trees: in short, no countryside. So I had no personal reference point, but having watched plenty of movies and TVs, it wasn't hard to picture a green country, rolling hills, thickets, and woods. My general imagery also came from the feeling that the Shire was a geographically mild and gentle place: I could only imagine rolling hills, no cliffs or deep canyons there. And patches of medium-sized trees, reasonably spaced apart, no towering trees nor dense woods. The Shire seemed to me to be a place of "all things in moderation." Rather generic overall, but pleasant, not bland.


Solicitr
NahoR


Jan 23, 3:49pm

Post #39 of 91 (207 views)
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Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

definitely envisioned the Shire as a "well-ordered countryside;' combined with his likening of Hobbiton to "a Warwickshire village about [1897]" I see it as much like rural west-central England, broadly Staffs-Warks-Northants-Leics-Oxon-Bucks. A gently rolling country of fields bounded by low stone walls and (unpaved) lanes, little spinneys and copses with the occasional stand big enough to be called a "wood," and bubbling brooks with once and a while a "river" one could easily toss a rock across.


Solicitr
NahoR


Jan 23, 4:07pm

Post #40 of 91 (204 views)
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Subject [In reply to] Can't Post



The one disjunct is that while England has a maritime climate- there is no point in Great Britain more than 50 miles from the sea - the Shire is well inland (225 miles from Hobbiton to the Grey Havens) and shielded by the Blue Mountains.


(This post was edited by Solicitr on Jan 23, 4:08pm)


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 5:41pm

Post #41 of 91 (197 views)
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And, ultimately perhaps, the beginning is also to do with the end [In reply to] Can't Post

When Tolkien was first drafting our current chapter, I don't think he knew that the war would end up with the Scouring of the Shire, the Battle of Bywater and the deaths of Wormtongue and Saruman at Bag End. But of course he did know that once he had a complete first draft and was thinking through revisions, improvements and cuts.

I'm thinking that, to be properly shocked and concerned about what has happened to the Shire during our quartet's absence we need to see it as it was before the War of the Ring. This is something that readers of The Hobbit haven't yet done - if I recall, Bilbo's country isn't even named, and The Hobbit moves from Bag End to Roast Mutton pretty sharply, with minimal description of what it's like. So it seems to me that (although it wasn't what he initially intended) Tolkien gets a pay-off at the end by showing us the Shire's people and its countryside in more detail. It probably also enhances the wildness of the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs.

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 7:20pm

Post #42 of 91 (202 views)
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Oxfordshire(-ish) countryside [In reply to] Can't Post

Oxfordshire(-ish) countryside is certainly what I imagine, prsonally. But then I live there, so it is the landscape I know best.

What does that look like? Well, something like this (link to Photobucket slideshow) - all these were taken a day's march from Oxford Professors who would freeze your blood if you didn't know the answer to their tutorial questions.
(that is, they're all less than 20 miles from Tolkien's old house in North Oxford)

But I'm certainly not saying that's the 'correct' answer and in a way it's a bit of a boring one. I remember being interested, watching some of the documentaries that came with my PJ film discs to hear that PJ and others of the team had imagined it all happening in New Zealand. And that, as they showed us, seemed to work just fine.

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 7:28pm

Post #43 of 91 (195 views)
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maritime climate [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a lovely photo.

In Reply To
The one disjunct is that while England has a maritime climate- there is no point in Great Britain more than 50 miles from the sea - the Shire is well inland (225 miles from Hobbiton to the Grey Havens) and shielded by the Blue Mountains.



I'd not thought about that! I wonder what kind of climate it ought therefore to have - something much colder and drier, perhaps? I suppose it's another way in which the Shire wouldn't really work (Shockedalmost as if it's a fantasy place Shocked). Similarly it's an odd place economically - the Bagginses and the like seem to have the consumer goods that suggest extensive trade links or a reasonable -sized empire. And yet the Shire is pretty small and self-contained. Nor is the climate really suitable for growing smoking tobacco or 'Old Winyards' (which I assume is something red and strong of the kind that the British historically imported from Bordeaux or Portugal to make damp British winter evenings a little more cheery).

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


Solicitr
NahoR


Jan 23, 7:41pm

Post #44 of 91 (198 views)
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Such [In reply to] Can't Post

a shame this forum has no "like" button. This post would get one if it had.


Otaku-sempai
Latrommi


Jan 23, 9:13pm

Post #45 of 91 (187 views)
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The Shire: Weather, Water and Climate [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That's a lovely photo.

In Reply To
The one disjunct is that while England has a maritime climate- there is no point in Great Britain more than 50 miles from the sea - the Shire is well inland (225 miles from Hobbiton to the Grey Havens) and shielded by the Blue Mountains.



I'd not thought about that! I wonder what kind of climate it ought therefore to have - something much colder and drier, perhaps? I suppose it's another way in which the Shire wouldn't really work (Shockedalmost as if it's a fantasy place Shocked). Similarly it's an odd place economically - the Bagginses and the like seem to have the consumer goods that suggest extensive trade links or a reasonable -sized empire. And yet the Shire is pretty small and self-contained. Nor is the climate really suitable for growing smoking tobacco or 'Old Winyards' (which I assume is something red and strong of the kind that the British historically imported from Bordeaux or Portugal to make damp British winter evenings a little more cheery).


Yeah, assuming south-westerly winds, the Shire shouldn't get very much precipitation due to its location east of the Blue Mountains, but that should apply to all of the former kingdom of Arthedain. One might expect the region to be fairly arid. The main sources for water in the Shire would have included the Brandywine River and run-off from the North Moors, the South Downs and the White Downs. Maybe the region also benefited from natural artesian wells? The Shire, and the Northfarthing in particular, was near to Lake Nenuial (the source of the Brandywine).

#FidelityToTolkien

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 23, 9:20pm)


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 9:15pm

Post #46 of 91 (189 views)
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It's amazing how well NZ worked [In reply to] Can't Post

considering Tolkien was loosely thinking of Europe for Middle-earth, not NZ. Yet I don't think the UK has any river gorge like the Argonath that could be dressed up the way that one in NZ is, correct? My point being that if someone reshot LOTR all in the UK, I think we'd be disappointed given the comparison. Other things really stick with me, like Edoras: it would be hard to find a competing location.

But then Rohan, for me, could have been anywhere: the Great Plains of the US, the Russian steppe, Mongolia. Grasslands are a dime a dozen.

It might have been cool to shoot Mt Doom around active volcanoes in Hawaii. And for Mordor in general, anywhere that there's been a lot of strip mining would probably do.

In sum, my imagination pulls on different places I've seen to fill in the blanks in the descriptions. Some are fuzzier than others.


CuriousG
Nevle-flah


Jan 23, 9:16pm

Post #47 of 91 (178 views)
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That final photo with the cloudy sky is a keeper. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


uncle Iorlas
Neirol


Jan 23, 11:26pm

Post #48 of 91 (174 views)
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Lovely photos all round [In reply to] Can't Post

And I'm oddly pleased to see a bunch of Tolkienists discussi g the landscape itself, given the author sweated it so hard.

I suppose my idea of the Shire has drawn heavily on my native northeast US, but for whatever reason, our fields and the Oxford fields shown above don't look so different (as opposed to Andean or Thai fields which can seem like another planet). Because they were laid out by the same blokes, I suppose?

I always feel bad for knowing too little about plants to really absorb all the information he offers. I have at least tried to pick up on some of the baroque landscape vocabulary.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 24, 2:44pm

Post #49 of 91 (139 views)
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baroque landscape vocabulary [In reply to] Can't Post

If it's any consolation, a lot of Tolkien's nature vocabulary is also obscure to me, a sample British English speaker (though not, of course the 'reference' one, who presumably is kept in some vault under the Oxford English Dictionary offices).

Perhaps using somewhat archaic terms helps give the Middle-earth of LOTR some of it's medieval flavour, but without using a style that is very different to much Twentieth Century writing? Or perhaps some of this vocabulary was more part of everyday speech to Tolkien's immediate audience than it is to readers now? The second issue does cause trouble elsewhere (we periodically get queries from someone who doesn't happen to know that 'fly' can be a past tense of 'to flee' and so wonders whether such and such a character can really be traveling through the air.). Yet another possibility is that Tolkien was a poet, and I think he's very alert to the sonic possibilities of his word choices, and had a gargantuan vocabulary from which to choose the right word for sound and rhythm as well as meaning and style.

Or maybe all of those.

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.


noWizardme
Nevle-flah


Jan 24, 3:01pm

Post #50 of 91 (141 views)
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Thanks - that's the River Thames from Eynsham Toll Bridge [In reply to] Can't Post

Or, to be more exact from the top deck of a bus passing over the bridge. I was lucky that both the clouds and the bus were moving slowly enough that I could capture the moment I'd seen.

I suppose that rivers like this (yes, you could probably chuck a rock across!) are in my imagination when I think about, say, The Brandywine. There even used to be a ferry worked with ropes nearby at Bablock Hythe (some pictures of that on this website - you'll need to scroll down past the maps). I don't think that runs now, which was a shame when I walked there once, and found I was on the opposite bank to the pub. The Brandywine must be a more formidable river though - people swim across and up and down the Thames at Eynsham in the autumn, and I imagine that what a child can swim, a horse can swim. (This being relevant because Merry says he doesn't think the Black Riders can reach Crickhollow by swimming the Brandywine. But that's another chapter).

Anyway, it seems plausible to me that most of Tolkien's landscapes are composites of real-life experience and imagination, rather than usually being a direct lift of something from real life.

~~~~~~
"Yes, I am half-elven. No, it does not mean that 'I have one pointy ear' "
Sven Elven, proprietor of the Rivendell convenience store.

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