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TIME - August 27
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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 27, 10:53am

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TIME - August 27 Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

August 27, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The Company makes its way north.
(not from the appendices)

..."...Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep [Elrond, Gandalf, Celeborn and Galadriel] would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with their mouth, looking from mind to mind and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro."



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 28, 10:35am

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TIME - August 28 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

August 28, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. Bilbo searches out each Dwarf's cell
(determined from text - referencing Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)

..."Eventually... ...by watching and following the guards and taking what chances he could, he managed to find out where each dwarf was kept. He found all their twelve cells in different parts of the palace, and after a time he got to know his way about very well. What was his surprise one day to overhear some of the guards talking and to learn that there was another dwarf in prison too, in a specially deep dark place. He guessed at once... ...that that was Thorin; and after a while he found that his guess was right."


August 28, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. They overtake Saruman
(from the appendices)

..."...As they came out again into open country at sundown they overtook an old man leaning on a staff, and he was clothed in rags of grey or dirty white, and at his heels went another beggar, slouching and whining.
...'Well Saruman!' said Gandalf. 'Where are you going?'
...'What is that to you?' he answered. 'Will you still order my goings, and are you not content with my ruin?'
...'You know the answers,' said Gandalf: 'no and no. But in any case the time of my labours now draws to an end... ...But will you scorn our help? For we offer it to you.'
...'To me?' said Saruman. 'Nay, pray do not smile at me! I prefer your frowns. And as for the Lady here, I do not trust her: she always hated me, and schemed for your part. I do not doubt that she has brought you this way to have the pleasure of gloating over my poverty...'
...'...Saruman,' said Galadriel, 'we have other errands and other cares that seem to us more urgent than hunting for you. Say rather that you are overtaken by good fortune; for now you have a last chance.'
...'If it be truly the last, I am glad... ...for I shall be spared the trouble of refusing it again. All my hopes are ruined, but I would not share yours...'
...'...Go!' he said. 'I did not spend long study on these matters for naught. You have doomed yourselves, and you know it. And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine. And now, what ship will bear you back across so wide a sea?' he mocked. 'It will be a grey ship, and full of ghosts.' He laughed, but his voice was cracked and hideous..."
......As the wretched pair passed by the company, they came to the hobbits, and Saruman stopped and stared at them; but they looked at him with pity.
...'So you have come to gloat too... ...my urchins?'"

2. Saruman turns towards the Shire.
(from the appendices)

..."Saruman laughed.... '...you hobbit-lordlings, riding along with all those great people, so secure and so pleased with your little selves. You thought you had done very well out of it all, and could now just amble back and have a nice quiet time in the country. Saruman's home could be all wrecked, and he could be turned out, but no one could touch yours. Oh no! Gandalf would look after your affairs... ...But you must go dangling after him, dawdling and talking, and riding round twice as far as you needed. "Well," thought I, "if they're such fools, I will get ahead of them and teach them a lesson. One ill turn deserves another..." ...And it will be pleasant to think of that and set it against my injuries.'"



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CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 28, 3:38pm

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This passage makes me wonder what more ruin for Saruman Gandalf wished for [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially since he offers to help him.


In Reply To
...'Well Saruman!' said Gandalf. 'Where are you going?'
...'What is that to you?' he answered. 'Will you still order my goings, and are you not content with my ruin?'
...'You know the answers,' said Gandalf: 'no and no. But in any case the time of my labours now draws to an end... ...But will you scorn our help? For we offer it to you.'




CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 28, 3:46pm

Post #4 of 60 (1564 views)
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Saruman would thrive today as an internet troll [In reply to] Can't Post

Telling everyone they're wrong, sewing discord and reveling in it, and correcting people to make them look foolish and make the troll feel superior, like pointing out I should have said "sow" instead of "sew." You'd like to think there's redemption for these people who must be as unhappy inside as they try to make the world outside them.




In Reply To
..."Saruman laughed.... '...you hobbit-lordlings, riding along with all those great people, so secure and so pleased with your little selves. You thought you had done very well out of it all, and could now just amble back and have a nice quiet time in the country. Saruman's home could be all wrecked, and he could be turned out, but no one could touch yours. Oh no! Gandalf would look after your affairs... ...But you must go dangling after him, dawdling and talking, and riding round twice as far as you needed. "Well," thought I, "if they're such fools, I will get ahead of them and teach them a lesson. One ill turn deserves another..." ...And it will be pleasant to think of that and set it against my injuries.'"




Kimi
Forum Admin / Moderator


Aug 29, 2:16am

Post #5 of 60 (1543 views)
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I don't think he wanted his ruin at all. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he is "not content with [Saruman's] ruin" because he wishes redemption for him, and wants to assist him in gaining that redemption. Coupled with that, Gandalf warned Frodo that Saruman was still capable of "a lit­tle mis­chief in a mean way", and is probably wondering just what mischief he is plotting.


The Passing of Mistress Rose
My historical novels

Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?

- A Room With a View


(This post was edited by Kimi on Aug 29, 2:16am)


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 29, 11:51am

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It's time for some BS! [In reply to] Can't Post

Continuing with the BS of the Company meeting up with Saruman and Wormtongue, let's see more Book Spoiler of what followed… for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

From Many Partings: The Return of the King


...”'So you have come to gloat too... ...my urchins?' he said. 'You don't care what a beggar lacks, do you! For you have all you want, food and fine clothes, and the best weed for your pipes. Oh yes... ...I know where it comes from. You would not give a pipeful to a beggar, would you!'
...'I would, if I had any,' said Frodo.
...'You can have what I have got left,' said Merry... ...he handed to Saruman a leather pouch. 'Take what there is... ...You are welcome to it; it came from the flotsam of Isengard.'
...'Mine, mine, yes and dearly bought!' cried Saruman, clutching at the pouch... '...a beggar must be grateful, if a thief returns him even a morsel of his own. Well, it will serve you right when you come home, if you find things less good in the Southfarthing than you would like. Long may your land be short of leaf!'
...'Thank you!' said Merry. 'In that case I will have my pouch back, which is not yours and has journeyed far with me. Wrap the weed in a rag of your own.'
...'One thief deserves another,' said Saruman, and turned his back on Merry... ...and went away towards the wood.
...'Well, I like that!' said Pippin. 'Thief indeed! What of our claim for waylaying, wounding, and orc-dragging us through Rohan?'
...'Ah!' said Sam. 'And "bought" he said. How, I wonder! And I didn't like the sound of what he said about the Southfarthing. It's time we got back.'
...'I'm sure it is,' said Frodo. 'But we can't go any quicker, if we are to see Bilbo. I am going to Rivendell first, whatever happens.'
...'Yes, I think you had better do that,' said Gandalf... '...alas for Saruman! I fear nothing more can be made of him. He has withered altogether. All the same, I am not sure that Treebeard is right: I fancy he could do some mischief still in a small mean way.'"



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We have been there and back again.


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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 29, 12:14pm

Post #7 of 60 (1498 views)
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Gandalf believed in Saruman for so long [In reply to] Can't Post

Even when he (Gandalf) was wondering to himself why he held back information about his guesses of the Ring and the Shire, he still honoured Saruman as the head. I agree he still had hope for Saruman's redemption. I think just like Frodo felt there was a chance of redemption for Sméagol so Gandalf thought there was a chance for Saruman.
I think, too, that Gandalf knew Saruman wasn't finished with his retaliation... and that his target would be the Shire. That's part of the reason he told the hobbits they were capable of taking care of their own business now and left them on the road to go to Bombadil's. I can imagine the conversations between those two immortals about hobbits ;)



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TIME Google Calendar


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 29, 9:24pm

Post #8 of 60 (1476 views)
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Aha! Thanks for that insight. Makes a lot of sense. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 29, 9:28pm

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OK, so you two have cleared up a line about Gandalf that has long bothered me. [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't work on the surface for Gandalf to say, in effect, "I'm not content with your ruin." The dangers of being too concise! But what he really meant was 1) he knew Saruman could cause more evil in his ruin, and 2) he hoped for redemption as a way out of that ruin, so yeah, he wasn't content to leave him in that state. Makes a lot more sense now. Though I think to Saruman's negative mind, he did think Gandalf just wanted to ruin him, and "redemption" was nonsense or subterfuge for some other fiendish purpose.

Thank you both.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 29, 9:36pm

Post #10 of 60 (1477 views)
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Any would-be do-gooder or peace-maker will recognize this scene [In reply to] Can't Post

The hobbits try to make peace with Saruman, but all he can do is be spiteful and treacherous in return. For some people, no matter how kind you are to them, you just never get past their wall of negativity.

It's not emotionally satisfying as a reader, but it resonates as real-world behavior in a fantasy world. I like how Tolkien has a variety of endings for characters: 100% perfect for Aragorn, Eowyn, and Faramir; mixed feelings for Frodo and the Elves; and then outright unhappy endings for Saruman and Wormtongue.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 30, 11:32am

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Woe is Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

I think part of his downfall was his jealously of Gandalf... and that he was threatened by Gandalf, too, if he knew of Galadriel's preference for Gandalf to head the White Council.



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 30, 11:42am

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True! [In reply to] Can't Post

We have a family friend who is very Eeyore... always sad, put-upon, negative and doom & gloom. For example, he hates the Christmas Holiday and makes sure everyone knows it every year while he joins us for the party ;) When I was waitressing, I smiled at the people who complained the most figuring I've made their day by giving them something to be indignant about over and over again... whether or not it was legitimate. Yep, there are those people.



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 30, 11:44am

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TIME - August 30 [In reply to] Can't Post

August 30, 2941 (S.R. 1341) (ish)
1. Gandalf rides to a meeting.
(not from the appendices-no text)

...It's been a full month since leaving Bilbo and the Dwarves at the edge of Mirkwood Forest, and Gandalf's thoughts never left them. For days while he was racing south, he was anxious and felt the call to turn back; but his first pledge had been made long before finding Thorin at the Prancing Pony and arranging the Quest. Now he felt sure they weren't in any immediate danger, and so his attention was turned to the task at hand as he kept an ear open for news from the north.



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We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


CuriousG
Half-elven


Aug 30, 4:08pm

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A smile from a waitress [In reply to] Can't Post

Good for you! It doesn't work on everyone, but it does on some like me. I never wake up in the morning and consciously think, "Today I'm going to be grouchy to strangers," but yes, I'm human, it happens. And "a smile from a waitress" or anyone else stops me cold in my tracks and snaps me back to self-awareness (and apologies).

Ugh--that family friend. Yeah, we had one like that too.


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Aug 31, 12:24pm

Post #15 of 60 (1393 views)
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It's time for some BS! [In reply to] Can't Post

Continuing with the BS of the Company meeting up with Saruman and Wormtongue, let's see more Book Spoiler of what followed… for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

From Many Partings: The Return of the King


..."[The Company] went on into northern Dunland, where no man now dwelt, though it was a green and pleasant country… …with golden days and silver nights, and they rode at ease until they reached the Swanfleet river, and found the old ford, east of the falls where it went down suddenly into the lowlands. Far to the west in a haze lay the meres and eyots through which it wound its way to the Greyflood: there countless swans housed in a land of reeds.... So they passed into Eregion, and at last a fair morning dawned, shimmering above gleaming mists; and looking from their camp on a low hill the travellers saw… …in the east the Sun catching three peaks that thrust up into the sky through floating clouds: Caradhras, Celebdil, and Fanuidhol."



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We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 1, 12:40pm

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TIME - September 1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

September 1, 2941 (S.R. 1341)
1. Bilbo finally finds one he sought.
(determined from text - referencing Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas of Middle-earth)

..."...after a week or two of this sneaking sort of life, by watching and following the guards and taking what chances he could, he managed to find out where each dwarf was kept. He found all their twelve cells in different parts of the palace, and after a time he got to know his way about very well."


September 1, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The Company makes its way north.
(not from the appendices)

..."They went on into northern Dunland, where no man now dwelt, though it was a green and pleasant country. September came in with golden days and silver nights, and they rode at ease u0ntil they reached the Swanfleet river, and found the old ford, east of the falls where it went down suddenly into the lowlands. Far to the west in a haze lay the meres and eyots through which it wound its way to the Greyflood....
...So they passed into Eregion, and at last a fair morning dawned, shimmering above gleaming mists; and looking from their camp on a low hill the travellers saw away in the east the Sun catching three peaks that thrust up into the sky through floating clouds: Caradhras, Celebdil, and Fanuidhol. They were near to the Gates of Moria."


September 1, 3020 (S.R. 1420)
1. The Shire thrives.
(not from the appendices)

..."Altogether 1420 in the Shire was a marvellous year. Not only was there wonderful sunshine and delicious rain, in due times and perfect measure, but there seemed something more: an air of richness and growth, and a gleam of a beauty beyond that of mortal summers that flicker and pass upon this Middle-earth. All the children born or begotten in that year... ...were fair to see and strong, and most of them had a rich golden hair that had before been rare among hobbits. The fruit was so plentiful that young hobbits very nearly bathed in strawberries and cream; and later they sat on the lawns under the plum-trees and ate, until they had made piles of stones like small pyramids or the heaped skulls of a conqueror... ...And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass." in that year, and there were many, were fair to see and strong, and most of them had a rich golden hair that had before been rare among hobbits. The fruit was so plentiful that young hobbits very nearly bathed in strawberries and cream... ...they sat on the lawns under the plum-trees and ate, until they had make piles of stones like small pyramids or the heaped skulls of a conqueror, and then they moved on. And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass."



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We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 2, 11:43am

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TIME - September 2 [In reply to] Can't Post



Today in Middle-earth

September 2, 1973
Today in Middle-earth... On this day in 1973 we lost our Good Professor. I'd like to offer this in memory and honour of him and his Lúthien.

From Of Beren and Lúthien: The Silmarillion


..."Now Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel went free again and together walked through the woods renewing for a time their joy; and though winter came it hurt them not, for flowers lingered where Lúthien went, and the birds sang beneath the snowclad hills."

From Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad: The Silmarillion


..."It is said that Beren and Lúthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; and they took up again their mortal form in Doriath. Those that saw them were both glad and fearful; and Lúthien went to Menegroth and healed the winter of Thingol with the touch of her hand. But Melian looked in her eyes and read the doom that was written there... ...she knew that a parting beyond the end of the world had come between them, and no grief of loss has been heavier than the grief of Melian the Maia in that hour. Then Beren and Lúthien went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger; and they passed beyond the River Gelion into Ossiriand, and dwelt there in Tol Galen the green isle... ...until all tidings of them ceased. The Eldar afterwards called that country Dor Firn-i-Guinar, and the Land of the Dead that Live; and there was born Dior Aranel the beautiful, who was after known as Dior Eluchíl, which is Thingol's Heir. No mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and none saw Beren or Lúthien leave the world, or marked where at last their bodies lay."



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dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 2, 2:38pm

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I can never forget... [In reply to] Can't Post

Starting my second year of college, and I glanced through the New York Times at the Library the next morning, and saw his obituary...and I made it back to my dorm room, and sat on my bed, and just cried and cried...

We'd lost a best friend we had never met in person, but knew well through his writings, which touched us all deeply.

Thank you, Professor. "And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 3, 10:47am

Post #19 of 60 (1172 views)
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**mods up** // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 3, 10:48am

Post #20 of 60 (1177 views)
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TIME - September 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

September 3, 3001 (S.R. 1401)
1. September in Hobbiton.
(not from the appendices)

..."...it was understood that something quite exceptional was being planned for that autumn. Bilbo was going to be eleventy-one, 111, a rather curious number, and a very respectable age for a hobbit... ...and Frodo was going to be thirty-three, 33, an important number: the date of his 'coming of age'.
...Tongues began to wag in Hobbiton and Bywater; and rumour of the coming event travelled all over the Shire. The history and character of Mr. Bilbo Baggins became once again the chief topic of conversation; and the older folk suddenly found their reminiscences in welcome demand.
...No one had a more attentive audience than old Ham Gamgee, commonly known as the Gaffer.... ...he spoke with some authority, for he had tended the garden at Bag End for forty years, and had helped old Holman in the same job before that. Now that he was himself growing old and stiff in the joints, the job was mainly carried on by his youngest son, Sam Gamgee. Both father and son were on very friendly terms with Bilbo and Frodo. They lived on the Hill itself, in Number 3 Bagshot Row just below Bag End.
...'A very nice well-spoken gentlehobbit is Mr. Bilbo, as I've always said,' the Gaffer declared. With perfect truth: for Bilbo was very polite to him, calling him 'Master Hamfast', and consulting him constantly upon the growing of vegetables—in the matter of 'roots', especially potatoes, the Gaffer was recognized as the leading authority by all in the neighbourhood (including himself).
...'But what about this Frodo that lives with him?' asked Old Noakes of Bywater. 'Baggins is his name, but he's more than half a Brandybuck... ...left an orphan and stranded, as you might say, among those queer Bucklanders. Being brought up anyhow in Brandy Hall. A regular warren, by all accounts. Old Master Gorbadoc never had fewer than a couple of hundred relations in the place. Mr. Bilbo never did a kinder deed than when he brought the lad back to live among decent folk...
...'...they do things proper at Bag End. [says the Gaffer] Our Sam says that everyone's going to be invited to the party, and there's going to be presents, mark you, presents for all--this very month as is.'"



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We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 4, 9:41am

Post #21 of 60 (1145 views)
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TIME - September 4 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

September 4, 3001 (S.R. 1401)
1. Party rumours start.
(not from the appendices)

..."...a rumour (probably started by the knowledgeable Sam) was spread about that there were going to be fireworks--fireworks, what is more, such as had not been seen in the Shire for nigh on a century, not indeed since the Old Took died."



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We have been there and back again.


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CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 4, 1:33pm

Post #22 of 60 (1128 views)
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Magic genie wish [In reply to] Can't Post

One of them would have been to attend Bilbo's birthday party!


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 5, 11:45am

Post #23 of 60 (1040 views)
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It's time for some BS! [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a Book Spoiler that gives you a glimpse of what you'll find in Appendix B and the Chronology of the Westlands. This is where I find the subjects of my TIME installments and a treasure trove of Tolkien's world… for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

Appendix B: The Tale of Years: The Third Age: The Return of the King

Year

2463
The White Council is formed. About this time Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol. Thráin the Dwarf is imprisoned in Dol Guldur; the last of the Seven Rings is taken from him.

2850
Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron. who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thráin and receives the key of Erebor. Thráin dies in Dol Guldur.

2851
The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.

2939
Saruman discovers that Sauron's servants are searching the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and that Sauron therefore has learned of Isildur's end. He is alarmed, but says nothing to the Council.

2941
Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of Five Armies in Dale. Death of Thorin II. Bard of Esgaroth slays Smaug. Dáin of the Iron Hills becomes King under the Mountain (Dáin II).

2942
Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor. 2944 Bard rebuilds Dale and becomes King. Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief of the Ring.



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CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 5, 1:26pm

Post #24 of 60 (1033 views)
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This is something I'd love to see on screen [In reply to] Can't Post

So much packed into this. How was Gandalf disguised? Did he come face to face with Sauron, or peek at him from behind a corner? How did he learn of Sauron's plans? How was he able to meet privately with Thrain? If Gandalf could get in and out (again), why couldn't he take Thrain with him?


In Reply To

2850
Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron. who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thráin and receives the key of Erebor. Thráin dies in Dol Guldur.




grammaboodawg
Immortal


Sep 6, 2:14am

Post #25 of 60 (979 views)
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Ohhhh. Me too! :D [In reply to] Can't Post

GREAT QUESTIONS that need answering... or at least put on the BIG screen!



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