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mcmojo
Bree
Jun 28 2019, 4:44pm
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Peter Jackson vs Tolkien: Five Things the Films Did Better Than the Books
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You can read my thoughts here.
I would certainly welcome some feedback. I know there are many who disagree that Jackson and company improved upon anything the good professor wrote.
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Jun 28 2019, 5:26pm
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I agree completely about Boromir and Thorin's portrayals: while re-reading LOTR recently, I was struck by how, as you put it, Boromir is treated as the bad guy even when's not being bad. He's treated pretty unfairly - there are glimpses of his heroism, but they're mostly provided by Pippin after the fact: in fact, the relationship between Boromir and Pippin is one that I think should have been expanded upon in both the books and the movies.
Thorin, too, becomes a multi-faceted, compelling character in Peter Jackson's hands. It is true that The Hobbit trilogy tends to get called "The Dwarf" trilogy, rather disparagingly, by critics of the films - but let's face it, Thorin in the movies is simply more interesting than Bilbo! His arc is masterfully crafted. Which is not to say that The Hobbit (the book) suffers from focusing on Bilbo, but the story that Peter Jackson is telling is about Thorin, as seen through Bilbo's eyes. His version of Thorin, thus, simply could not be the somewhat two-dimensional figure from Tolkien's work.
I get the general gist of what you're saying about Bard vs Smaug, and I agree with that - but I felt that the actual execution of the scene made it one of my least-favorite parts of the trilogy.
"We are Kree"
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mcmojo
Bree
Jun 28 2019, 5:31pm
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I'm glad we agree about a few of the items I chose to write about.
I'm going to have to stick with my assessment of Bard vs Smaug. I love that scene completely. I love the way it builds. How it's staged - Smaug raining down fire and death. I love how fearless Bard is. And I love how Smaug, once he spots Bard, decides to do what he does best - talk and brag about himself. It gives Bard a chance to spot his weakness. And as a father, I love the interaction between Bard and his son.
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 28 2019, 6:30pm
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On Helm's Deep, you've set up a bit of a self-fulfilling criticism
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OK, you make some very arguable points. I agree that Sean Bean's Boromir is more sympathetic and warmer than Tolkien's version; I'm not sure a faster-thinking and less insecure Sam was an improvement.
But for Helm's Deep, as I read your piece, you conclude that despite Tolkien's excellent writing Jackson's version is the best filmed battle ever. Huh? So did Tolkien film the battle less skillfully? How can a filmed battle be "done better" than a written battle? I do agree with you, by the way, that the Helm's Deep battle in the films is one of the highlights of the entire series, and is far superior to the Siege and Pellenor battle sequences in the third film. And that's actually a flaw in the adaptation, come to think of it. Tolkien's battle for Minas Tirith is even better than Helm's Deep, as one would expect for the climactic role it plays in the larger story; it's really too bad that Jackson was not able to pull the same trick off in his adaptation.
I think comparisons between the original book and Jackson's (and his team's) adaptations are well worth discussing, but they have to be in comparable terms even allowing for the difference of medium. Plot, character, setting, dialogue, narrative rhythm, and theme are all areas where, I think, we can talk about a film adaptation's choices compared to the original property. But in the areas of sound recording, lighting, camera work, and editing (re the film), not really; ditto for vocabulary, literary style, tone, and references, and authorial voice (re the book).
Thanks for the link!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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mcmojo
Bree
Jun 28 2019, 6:44pm
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As far as Helm's Deep is concerned, I will only add this:
I believe Tolkien created a great blueprint for Jackson. He provided the setting, the geography, and the materials to work with. I think Tolkien's version is solid. It accomplishes exactly what it sets out to. Yet, I have read other battle sequences in literature - both fantasy and historical fiction - that either challenge it or surpass it. Jackson took the material and he created something that to me, is the best ever for the medium. Does that make sense? And I agree, I believe Tolkien's Pellenor battle is even better than his Helm's Deep battle and Jackson was unable to top that, though he did create some spectacular and emotionally poignant moments.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 28 2019, 8:56pm
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…I will agree that Boromir and Thorin are, arguably, both portrayed better in the films than in Tolkien's legendarium, especially Thorin, who is a somewhat less complex character in The Hobbit. Boromir is shown with more humanity during the journey to Moria. Thorin is more well-rounded and less pompous.
I can't be quite as generous, though, with my praise for Samwise or of Bard in the films. I like Sam in the books, including his role in the conspiracy (alongside Merry, Pippin, and Fatty Bolger) to root out Frodo's secrets in order to aid him as much as possible. As much as I liked Sean Astin's Samwise, nearly all of that was lost in the films.
Bard is introduced earlier, making him less of a deus ex machina. I don't even mind that he's given a family, though in my head-canon he doesn't wed and sire Bain until after the events of The Hobbit. I still like book-Bard better, grimness and all. Granted, the decision to make Smaug (huge as he was in the book) even more gigantic did necessitate some changes in how Bard takes on the dragon, starting with upgrading the size of the Black Arrow. I'm still not comfortable with Bard's improvised ballista; it just never worked for me. Dramatically, the scene with the bowman and his son versus Smaug is quite good; it's the mechanics involved that takes me out of the movie; and moving the action into the present was a wise choice.
As for the Battle of the Hornburg, I think I can say that I like both versions more-or-less equally, if not for exactly the same reasons.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Jun 28 2019, 9:05pm
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As soon as I saw your subject line
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I thought, "Boromir". Even just the added scene of him on the slopes of Caradhras, picking up the dropped ring and speaking dreamily to himself, already under the Ring's influence, revealed a great deal about how his heroism is also his weakness.
I'm of two minds about Helm's Deep. It's a masterful battle on screen but I still can't get my head around the wisdom of riding out to certain death "for your people".
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jun 29 2019, 8:47am
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The characterization of Thorin may be the greatest single achievement thus far in Sir Peter Jackson's career. These tentpoles get so often derided for their simple stories and characters, and looking at The Lord of the Rings, you could see some truth in that: Even characters who deliberate between good and evil like Boromir or Gollum, are only given so much time for that internal conflict to develop. Thorin, however, has three movies at his disposal.
While oft-compared to Aragorn, Thorin is much more in the vein of those aforementioned characters, as well as Braveheart's William Wallace, Jackson's Kong and O'Toole's T. E. Lawrence.
We don't see many of those tragic characters in contemporary blockbusters: characters who are one rewrite away from becoming the villains of the piece. Indeed, when we do see complex characters of this sort (I'm thinking Kylo Ren) the script does just that - label them as the villains - and in doing so robbs their story of much of the potency that it could have had.
All of which isn't to say that Thorin hasn't good, sympathetic attributes: he's heroic, honourable. In certain portions of the narrative, he's even allowed to through his own stoicism and crack a smile (I counted four in An Unexpected Journey), show fear (when Smaug rattles the mountain), hesitance and anguish. All of these things help keep the audience engaged in the character even as he becomes antagonistic.
All in all, superb.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jun 29 2019, 4:31pm
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I would disqualify Helm's Deep simply because of the (utterly impossible) presence of the Elves.
To that I would add the absence of the Huorns(!), Theoden's stupidly suicidal charge (NOT as in the book), and Eomer's both impossible AND suicidal charge down an Olympic downhill into pikemen.
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StingingFly
Lorien
Jun 29 2019, 8:31pm
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...and an interesting read.
Movie Boromir is amazing, though they don't include my favorite book moment of his where he stops the Balrog in his tracks with his horn. Only Boromir would pull a stunt like that.
Movie Thorin was also well played and compelling. The book Thorin wasn't as dynamic, but better served the story that was being told. All his pomp and arrogance was nothing in the critical moments. It was the simple courage and acts of kindness (of a hobbit no less) that won the day.
Agree on Helm's Deep being my favorite movie battle. The only caveat being Gimli's "comedy", particularly the not being able to see over the wall. He should have easily been able to pull himself up onto the parapet to see what was going on. Otherwise brilliant.
I can't go with you on Movie Bard and the confrontation with Smaug. Why is he taunting a random villager? How can the improvised ballista launch a metal bolt with enough force to kill a dragon? It just didn't work for me.
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jul 2 2019, 9:37am
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I wouldn’t “kick you out of the Tolkien fan club” for your essay but the only point I agree with is Boromir’s portrayal. I didn’t much care for the deleted scene because it changes the flavor of Boromir’s attendance at the Council of Elrond and the surprise of Isildur’s Bane. Instead of reacting to new news, his speech is now part of a carefully prepared plan and Denethor’s corruption.
I do love Sean Astin’s Portrayal of Samwise but I don’t think it was better than the books’. Sam as written was your basic Edwardian era Batman and had a stolidness about him that the script lacked.
I agree with Otaku-sempai; my head canon also has Bard establishing his family after Smaug’s death and the rebuilding of Dale. Bard in the films was your typical Hollywood anti-establishment proletarian hero and I’m tired of that agenda being shoved down my throat. Bard in the book is a guardsman; the scion of a once-noble line and your basic paladin or protector type.
Thorin in the films ... just ick. He’s not a dwarf, particularly not a Longbeard, and his actions are thoroughly inconsistent while Thorin in the book is your basic proud gruff patriarch who has been wrongfully dispossessed and is consumed by it. I didn’t like them turning Aragorn into an indecisive hesitant princeling and I loathe them doing it to Thorin.
As far as the Battle of Helms Deep goes, the films did a great job expanding on it and I enjoy the moment but it gives an odd climactic feel while the larger story has a ways to go. I didn’t care for the dwarf-tossing joke nor surfing Legolas. I believe John Rhys-Davies was having a lot of fun with the role and I enjoyed his additions on first viewing but they grate on me during subsequent viewings.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 2 2019, 12:04pm
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I agree with Otaku-sempai; my head canon also has Bard establishing his family after Smaug’s death and the rebuilding of Dale. Bard in the films was your typical Hollywood anti-establishment proletarian hero and I’m tired of that agenda being shoved down my throat.
Well, I think it was important - outside of his ambigious early scenes - to turn Bard into a stereotypically sympathetic hero, because there comes a point in the story where the audience's sympathy has to migrate from Thorin (whom we had by this stage been with through quite a lot of screentime and ordeals) to Bard.
The Bard of the book is very much the aggressor in the negotiations with Thorin. I don't think it would have worked for the screen.
Thorin in the films ... just ick. He’s not a dwarf, particularly not a Longbeard[..] I didn’t like them turning Aragorn into an indecisive hesitant princeling and I loathe them doing it to Thorin.
I enjoyed the traejectory of the character so much that I couldn't care less that his beard was a couple of inches too short. I saw an early makeup test they did for a more "Dwarvish" Thorin, and I don't think it would've worked.
Aragorn's character journey as a reluctant hero (in terms of ascending the throne) is enjoyable enough: I think its a rather straightforward choice, and its certainly not the most interesting of the character arcs in the overall scheme of things.
Thorin is absolutely nothing like that. He only gets the play the hesitant card in the Bree flasbhack. There's also the Goblin King's taunt: "And you're not a king. Which makes you...nobody, really." Otherwise, his traejectory is the inverse of Aragorn: Whereas the latter needs to find the will to ascend the throne, Thorin's failing is his all-consuming desire to do just that: to the point that he's willing to risk the well-being of the people of Laketown, of Kili, and of Bilbo, to do so.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 2 2019, 12:07pm)
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mcmojo
Bree
Jul 2 2019, 12:29pm
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Something has been lost in the reading of my "essay."
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I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that I was very clear about my points. I never said I like Bard or Sam better in the movies. I said I like how very specific moments with their characters were handled in the movies: Sam choosing to follow and go with Frodo, and Bard's killing of Smaug. Outside of those two events, I made no comment or judgment on the film versions vs the book version. (If you really want my take - book Sam is one of my favorite characters in literature.)
I'm okay with people disagreeing with my takes. Everyone has their opinion and that is great. I stand by my take on Thorin, though. I've never cared for the book Thorin as anything other than a mostly personality-less plot device. His "quest" propels the book but he adds no color or life to the story. He is a blank slate for the most part - as are most of the dwarves. I understand book purists taking issue with the film version, but I believe that even though film Thorin is not at all a Tolkien character, he is a much more interesting character than the book version.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 2 2019, 2:00pm
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I don't know about personality-less
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In terms of members of the company that have character in the book, I would say those would be Thorin, Balin, Fili/Kili (who really function as one character) and Bombur. In the films its Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili and Bofur.
I also wouldn't call the films' Thorin non-Tolkien. There's a lot in "Durin's Folk" that gives the reader an understanding of Thorin's frame of mind, and of course his realization reminds me of Tolkien's other tragic figures, such as Boromir, Isildur, Denethor and even Turin.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 2 2019, 2:04pm)
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jul 3 2019, 1:53am
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would have cringed at Bilbo's "home" speech at the end of AUJ. Homes? The Dwarves had homes, in the Blue Mountains. They weren't going to Erebor because they wanted new cribs, they went (in a song PJ liked enough to put in the movie, but not enough to follow)
"To seek the pale enchanted gold"
"To claim our long-forgotten gold"
"To win our harps and gold from him!"
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Paulo Gabriel
Lorien
Jul 3 2019, 6:23am
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Have you ever read Joan Barger's essays on the LOTR movies?
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 3 2019, 8:43am
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would have cringed at Bilbo's "home" speech at the end of AUJ. Homes? The Dwarves had homes, in the Blue Mountains. They weren't going to Erebor because they wanted new cribs, they went (in a song PJ liked enough to put in the movie, but not enough to follow)
"To seek the pale enchanted gold"
"To claim our long-forgotten gold"
"To win our harps and gold from him!"
The films are infused with a patriotic sensibility. The Dwarves want to reclaim their homeland. Frodo sets out "to save the Shire", his own homeland. Boromir wants to defend "the land of my people". Faramir is willing to give his life to defend his city's "memory".
In the case of the song, the lyrics do suggest the gold as being the motivation, but the sentiment conveyed in the tone of the song and the way the scene plays out speaks more to a yearning for their homeland. Its also said within the previous scene: "They dreamt of a day when the Dwarves of Erebor would reclaim their homeland."
To some degree, you could call the film version ambigious. A lot of this ambiguity is played through characters like Balin or Bard, who seem to be reading Thorin's motivations as more related to the gold. Jackson himself says in the commentary: "That's what always confused me about The Hobbit[..]is it about the Dwarves wanting to reclaim their homeland, or is it really about them wanting the gold; and in a way its both of course."
You could of course say that notions of patriotism in general are an anachronism in Middle Earth, but:
a) its a complex enough of an question for someone like Professor Shippey to write a whole book deliberating about it, so even if its true, anyone who's not a Tolkien scholar could be excused for reading patriotism in the Dwarves' motivations
b) it works for the filmmakers' film, namely because it ties to the commentary on isolationism contained within the films.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 3 2019, 8:56am)
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 3 2019, 2:21pm
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In essence the quest in the book is motivated by greed.
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With maybe a little spite too, as revenge. That’s fine in the book, especially for the comical, helpless, greedy and selfish Dwarves whom we follow through most of the story.
But the Dwarves of LotR, book and movies, are different – nobler and braver if not less greedy and still somewhat selfish. These are also the Dwarves of the Hobbit movies, as they had to be given that TH movies follow the LotR trilogy. It’s one of several problems created by that filming order.
Since greed is not a very appealing attribute or motivation, the film makers went in a different direction. I remember PJ and/or Boyens talking about this problem in some commentary, interview or documentary and explicitly asserting that greed as a motivator was problematical. So their Dwarves are primarily driven by a longing to return to their old home and they are willing to risk the dragon to regain the Arkenstone as the first step in that process. Greed is still a strong theme in these movies but doesn’t really rear its ugly head until DOS and BOTFA, especially after the Dwarves actually see the gold.
In AUJ Balin mentions the home Thorin had made for his people in the Blue Mountains, but for Thorin that’s not enough. It is his duty, his sacred obligation, to try to regain the lost homeland of Erebor.
So Bilbo’s speech, while not entirely accurate, is thematically and generally appropriate for the movies. Love for one’s people and homeland is not exclusively a modern concept.
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kzer_za
Lorien
Jul 3 2019, 3:37pm
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Downplays the treasure-hunt angle of the quest and casts it primarily as a mix of personal vengeance and reclaiming their rightful homeland.
Tolkien reimagined the bumbling buffoonish dwarves of The Hobbit (and the villainous backstabbing dwarves of the early legendarium) in a more competent and heroic mold with LotR. Any version of The Hobbit made after LotR was not going to be able to ignore this.
(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jul 3 2019, 3:44pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 3 2019, 4:01pm
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There's a wonderfully evocative moment in Durin's Folk
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He thought of weapons and armies and alliances, as his great hammer rang in his forge; but the armies were dispersed and the alliances broken and the axes of his people were few; and a great anger without hope burned him as he smote the red iron on the anvil.
This moment is adapted into the prologue of An Unexpected Journey. Once I saw it, I knew exactly what kind of movie (or rather, three movies) I was going to see.
they had to be given that TH movies follow the LotR trilogy. It’s one of several problems created by that filming order.
It isn't just the filming order. Even if the filmmakers started with The Hobbit, the prospect of making The Lord of the Rings and making a unified series out of the two pieces was there from the beginning.\
If you had a filmmaker who was going to do just The Hobbit (a-la Rankin/Bass), or rather if The Hobbit was being adapted before The Lord of the Rings books ever came out - that could have made for an adaptation that was more "faithful" to the tone of The Hobbit book.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 3 2019, 4:11pm)
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jul 3 2019, 10:45pm
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Disagree — motivation was revenge more than greed
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I felt it was pretty clear in the book that the Dwarves had a near-genetic lust for gold but their central motivation was to revenge themselves on Smaug for his predations and to reclaim their homes. Greed and pride were the reasons Thorin kept his mission secret from Thranduil and the men of Laketown but reason for the mission was to revenge themselves on Smaug (which was also Gandalf’s reason for helping them).
(This post was edited by Omnigeek on Jul 3 2019, 10:46pm)
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 4 2019, 12:05pm
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Though Book Thorin’s heart may have burned and the Dwarves obviously would have wanted revenge against Smaug, what they actually did was hire a burglar simply to steal some of the treasure back. There seems to have been no plan beyond regaining some of the gold. Was annoying the dragon their idea of revenge?
The quest in the book does not actually make any sense because of that lack of a coherent plan either to deal with the dragon or remove the treasure. That doesn’t hurt the children’s book but wouldn’t work in a larger movie.
Chen, we don’t know what Jackson and Walsh intended for The Hobbit. Their one-film adaptation might have been more literally faithful to the book - small, sweet and funny - or maybe they would have created something closer to LotR with all its gravitas. I’d love to know. But at least they would have been free of the constraints imposed by having their Hobbit following their wildly successful LotR.
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jul 4 2019, 1:20pm
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IIRC, hiring the burglar was Gandalf’s idea:
“You asked me to find the fourteenth man for your expedition, and I chose Mr. Baggins. Just let any one say I chose the wrong man or the wrong house, and you can stop at thirteen and”
“warriors are busy fighting one another in distant lands, and in this neighbourhood heroes are scarce, or simply lot to be found. Swords in these parts are mostly blunt, and axes are used for trees, and shields as cradles or dish-covers; and dragons are comfortably far-off (and therefore legendary). That is why I settled on burglary-especially when I remembered the existence of a Side-door”
As it stands, it was a good idea because with their limited numbers, the only way they could have done something was to find a way to sneak in and do it stealthily.
The dwarves’ descriptions of the Great Hall and the Mountain before Smaug told me what they really wanted was to reclaim their home. Even when Thorin recites the tale of Smaug’s predations to Bilbo and says they have not forgotten their stolen treasure, he says
“And even now, when I will allow we have a good bit laid by and are not so badly off"-here Thorin stroked the gold chain round his neck-"we still mean to get it back, and to bring our curses home to Smaug-if we can.”
To me, the gold was always the kind of excuse or rationalization that guys give themselves when they don’t want to admit they are motivated by sentiment.
“They debated long on what was to be done, but they could think of no way of getting rid of Smaug -- which had always been a weak point in their plans, as Bilbo felt inclined to point out.
When the dwarves are perplexed about what to do, they grumble and Bilbo responds,
“Did you expect me to trot back with the whole hoard of Thror on my back?”
Indeed, that very point is probably why I have always felt their real objective was revenge and to somehow deal with Smaug. There was just no way they could cart away Thror’s treasure with just 13 or 14 bodies.
Indeed, Smaug’s discussion with Bilbo brings up this point and Bilbo responds,
“I tell you," he said, in an effort to remain loyal to his friends and to keep his end up, "that gold was only an afterthought with us. We came over hill and under hill, by wave and wind, for Revenge.”
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 4 2019, 8:40pm
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I remain unconvinced so we'll have to agree to disagree.
How were 13 Dwarves and a Hobbit going to exact revenge on Smaug exactly? By stealing a bit of his treasure? Unless it was their plan to make him so mad that he'd leave the mountain and attack Laketown, where someone there might do the job for them. That's what happened so maybe the Dwarves were smarter than they seemed.
Really the entire thing makes very little sense which doesn't matter in the context of the book.
Certainly PJ and Co. thought there was an issue to be resolved for their movies.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 4 2019, 8:51pm
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That when Tolkien started writing The Hobbit he certainly had in mind that the company would slay the dragon. So revenge was certainly on his mind as a motive for the Dwarves.
Smaug’s dream of a small warrior prefigures the original ending in which Bilbo gets to carry out the deed.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 4 2019, 8:53pm)
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Jul 4 2019, 10:11pm
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No biggie but one thing they can do with one “burglar” is scout the area and look for opportunities to slay the dragon. Basically the same skill set for a burglar as a scout. As Bilbo told Thorin and company, if they wanted to take the treasure, they should have taken 500 burglars, not one. Having noted Smaug’s weak point, they could have driven a spear through his heart when he slept again (if he hadn’t rushed out to incinerate Laketown). Theft is the one scenario that absolutely makes no sense.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 10 2019, 3:24am
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How were 13 Dwarves and a Hobbit going to exact revenge on Smaug exactly? By stealing a bit of his treasure? Unless it was their plan to make him so mad that he'd leave the mountain and attack Laketown, where someone there might do the job for them. That's what happened so maybe the Dwarves were smarter than they seemed.
Really the entire thing makes very little sense which doesn't matter in the context of the book.
Certainly PJ and Co. thought there was an issue to be resolved for their movies.
In my own head-canon, Thorin's hope was to reclaim enough treasure to finance an army large enough to retake Erebor from Smaug. I don't think he would have had a real hope of the company being able to slay the dragon.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
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Noria
Gondor
Jul 10 2019, 11:40pm
Post #28 of 56
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All of the above rationales would work.
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But they are head canon, not in TH book itself. Nothing wrong with that.
The book, a fairy-tale bedtime story for kids set in a kind of proto-Middle-earth, doesn't need a rational explanation of what the Dwarves were trying to accomplish.
The Hobbit movies, set as they are firmly in the world of Lord of the Rings, have to make more sense.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 11 2019, 3:15pm
Post #29 of 56
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I need to remind myself that we are discussing the films and not the books.
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We do see Thorin's companions displaying some confidence that Gandalf would be able to deal with the dragon. Similarly, it is the wizard's intention here to remain with the company all the way to Erebor, which is not the case in the book. It might be that Thorin hopes to come upon Smaug in his sleep (if the beast still lives and hasn't moved his hoard elsewhere) and discover a way to slay him before he awakens. Perhaps he thinks that Gandalf would be able to place a spell of sleep upon Smaug that would keep him from waking.
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." - DRWolf (after John C. Maxwell)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 11 2019, 8:38pm
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The films do give the impression
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That the Dwarves look to Gandalf to help them sort Smaug out. Namely, because that is the cause he joins Thorin for, and because of Kili’s line: “Gandalf would have killed hundreds of dragons in his time.”
In the second film, when Gandalf warns them not to enter the mountain without him, I took it that he indeed intends to be there should all hell break loose. And of course, in movie language, that Gandalf warns them off of something invariably mean that they would do it, and that he wouldn’t be there.
Neat little bit of setup, that.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 11 2019, 8:42pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jul 12 2019, 6:08am
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What if Tolkien didn't want Boromir to be too sympathetic?
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Supposing that to be the case, didn't the film fail?
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jul 12 2019, 6:10am
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Which book does Tom Shippey devote to the subject of patriotism in Tolkien's work?
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You could of course say that notions of patriotism in general are an anachronism in Middle-earth, but:
a) It's a complex enough question for someone like Professor Shippey to write a whole book deliberating about it, so even if its true, anyone who's not a Tolkien scholar could be excused for reading patriotism in the Dwarves' motivations.
Could you elaborate on that point?
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jul 12 2019, 6:14am
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Which written battles do you prefer to Tolkien?
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Do you perhaps have a list of your five or ten favorite battles in literature?
And what about film? You identify Peter Jackson's Battle of Helm's Deep as the greatest of filmed battles. What rounds out your top five or top ten?
For myself, I thought the movie battle of Helm's Deep was all right, if way too long for the movie but in my mind it will always be colored by some smart-alecs in the audience who started humming the theme from Chariots of Fire when they saw the orc running with the torch.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 12 2019, 9:07am
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Which book does Tom Shippey devote to the subject of patriotism in Tolkien's work? Could you elaborate on that point?
I was saying that its a subject that would require an entire book from a Tolkien expert to come to grips with, so one could forgive the filmmakers if they got it wrong.
Patriotism and nationality are 19th-century concepts, and yet they're subtly but evidentally present in Sir Peter Jackson's vision of Middle Earth: from Boromir wanting to defend his "people", to Faramir willing to lay down his life for his city, to Thorin wanting to liberate "Dwarf lands" from Smaug.
In many ways, its a core theme of The Hobbit trilogy, because - of course - it plays into the whole arguments for and against isolationism that's going on.
You can make arguments as to whether or not these concepts are indeed present in Tolkien's writings. Its not a simple subject with clear-cut answers.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 12 2019, 9:07am)
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mcmojo
Bree
Jul 12 2019, 12:57pm
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I've gone back and forth on that. I am fairly confident Tolkien didn't want a completely sympathetic character but he did want Boromir to end up as a hero, so I am okay with the changes the filmmakers made. It's not like the film presents an entirely sympathetic character either. He's just a bit more likeable.
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mcmojo
Bree
Jul 12 2019, 1:04pm
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I don't have a list. Sorry. Here are a few examples, though:
I think both Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson have some mind-blowing battles in their books.
I think Tolkien's Pelennor Fields' battle was better.
For films:
Gladiator has some good battles.
The Director's Cut of King Arthur had some well-staged battles.
Braveheart.
The Last of the Mohicans.
Zulu.
300.
Kingdom of Heaven.
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kzer_za
Lorien
Jul 12 2019, 3:13pm
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Remains the one to beat for modern literary battles, IMO.
For Tolkien's own battles, Helms Deep isn't as good as the Pelennor or Nirnaeth. I've always found HD difficult to follow every time I reread the book actually. There is also a case to be made for the Lost Tales version of Gondolin, which is very impressive if you can get past the stuffy prose and anachronistic (within the legendarium) elements.
(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jul 12 2019, 3:18pm)
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 12 2019, 4:53pm
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Battles as action and battles as drama
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For films:
Gladiator has some good battles.
The Director's Cut of King Arthur had some well-staged battles.
Braveheart.
The Last of the Mohicans.
Zulu.
300.
Kingdom of Heaven.
The Battle of Stirling in Braveheart remains, for my money, the best. The patient build-up to every step in the battle, the humour, the unbridled bloodlust craze that the characters tap into on the battlefield, the rousing, guttural cry Wallace gives at the end - its a sensation.
However, the same film also contains the battle of Falkirk which - while not as visceral, is much more operatic: its a stage for drama, rather than a battle, per se.
I feel like the same is true of the comparison of Pelennor fields and Helm's Deep. The former is more impressive as an action sequence, the latter - much, much better as a stage for drama. The same could be said for the Battle of the Five Armies, actually.
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jul 12 2019, 10:27pm
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"Patriotism and nationality are 19th-century concepts"
Again, ???????
----------------------------------
Victor Hugo's account of Waterloo may be the best in prose.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 12 2019, 10:28pm
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People's loyalties laid with their soverign, town or religion - not with their "nation" (such a concept did not exist) or the country such a nation would have occupied. Those are modern concepts.
Not so with the characters in the films and - it could be argued - in the books, as well.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 12 2019, 10:39pm)
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jul 13 2019, 12:47am
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suggest you read more medieval history. Or even 17th-18th century.
For that matter, read Shakespeare.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jul 13 2019, 1:26am)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jul 13 2019, 6:38am
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"Nationalism has been a recurring facet of civilizations since ancient times ..."
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"...though the modern sense of national political autonomy and self-determination was formalized in the late 18th century."
(Per Wikipedia.)
The split between you and solicitr may be mostly about definitions.
Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jul 13 2019, 6:38am
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Has anyone checked to see how Tolkien uses the word "nation"? //
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Treachery, treachery I fear; treachery of that miserable creature.
But so it must be. Let us remember that a traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 13 2019, 8:29am
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suggest you read more medieval history. Or even 17th-18th century.
For that matter, read Shakespeare.
Applying for a PhD. I assure you, I know.
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kzer_za
Lorien
Jul 13 2019, 1:26pm
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Tolkien says at one point, presumably with a bit of joking exaggeration, that he would like to execute anyone who used the word "state" in its modern sense.
He also was skeptical to say the least of the whole idea of the Great Britain and especially as a commonwealth/empire (the readings of LotR as nostalgia for the declining British empire are mistaken). On the other hand, he was very much an old-school English loyalist to the point of being bitter about 1066 and wary about French influence in English cooking!
(This post was edited by kzer_za on Jul 13 2019, 1:36pm)
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Thor 'n' Oakenshield
Rohan
Jul 13 2019, 3:11pm
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Robert Jordan had fantastic battle scenes
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I may not like the Wheel of Time series in general, but the battles that typically concluded each of his books were always incredible and almost worth reading the seven-hundred preceding pages to get to. In particular, the battle at the end of book two was truly epic.
"It is my duty to fight" - Mulan
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Solicitr
Gondor
Jul 13 2019, 6:46pm
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Is, or was, not quite the same thing as "nation-state." Certainly Germany and Italy were nations long before they ever were states! Nationalist sentiment well predates Westphalia; even Crusaders wore color-coded crosses by nationality, and the Teutonic Order was expressly just for Germans. And English patriotism also goes a very long way back, at least to the time of Henry IV if not Edward III (the use of English by the upper classes and in literature dates from this period, and was very much a function of the war with France). Shakepeare, himself writing long before the 19th century, has John of Gaunt launch as flagwaving an encomium to England ("this sceptr'd isle") as any WW1-era John Bull; and if the real Henry V never cried "Harry, England and St George!", it certainly seemed appropriate enough to a 1590s audience. In fact that play is stuffed to the gills with patriotic sentiments- not very surprising for the years just after the Armada.
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Chen G.
Gondor
Jul 13 2019, 8:11pm
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There are vestiges of nationalistic sentiment in the Middle Ages
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But its not the fully-formed concept of modern times. At any rate, it should be anachronistic to Middle Earth and yet, even if it is, it doesn't feel too off of the mark.
Tolkien was, after all, a 20th century writer, and he could not escape the trappings of his time entirely.
The filmmakers, working in the 21th century, certainly can't, and their films are deeply informed by such concepts, as well as by anchiliary concepts such as globalism and isolationism. It informs other films in their catalogue: look at the commentary on treatment of immigrants in the script to Mortal Engines, or - given that some of the films were co-written by Guillermo Del Toro - the commentary on racism in The Shape of Water.
Those themes - chiefly, the commentary on isolationism - aren't foreign to The Lord of the Rings, either: look at Theoden, refusing to call for Gondor's aid and later contemplating: "Why should we ride to the aid of those who did not come to ours." Perhaps the most straightforward expression of the theme is in the exchange between Treebeard and Merry: "This is not our war" - "but you're part of this world!"
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Jul 13 2019, 8:16pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 16 2019, 2:46pm
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And going farther back in history
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Ancient Egyptians thought of themselves as a nation-state and believed they should be united under their native ruler, not some foreigner. The ancient Greeks had a sense of being a nation ("we are Greeks; everyone else is a barbarian") even though they were in autonomous city-states. I don't know Chinese history well, but they seemed to have the nation-state idea down early too.
And I remember sitting in a university class in the 1980s when a poli sci professor (that's my major) told us modern nationalism all started with the Treaty of Westphalia, and I thought, so what about the preceding 4000 years of history?" It does come down to splitting hairs about definitions which are purely academic.
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CMackintosh
Rivendell
Oct 19 2019, 8:08am
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and given to other characters - the best example was during the siege of Gondor when Pippin asks Gandalf about dying and gets Frodo's vision of the Blessed Realm given to him as Gandalf's experience dying after fighting the Balrog.
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Saruman
Bree
Oct 29 2019, 8:56pm
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Good article, and I agree with most of it (and my list of what PJ did better would be much longer, actually), but am I the only one who likes book Boromir better than film Boromir? Maybe it's because I'm not high on Sean Bean like the rest of the world. He's alright, but he didn't bring Boromir to life for me. I saw the films before I read the books, but I found my love for Boromir when I read the books.
Movie Boromir is, by far, more disrespectful than book Boromir. Take the scene when Boromir sees Aragorn in Rivendell, picks up the shards of Narsil (A FAMILY HEIRLOOM), drops the blade, and doesn't even care enough to pick it up. Completely disrespectful and immediately paints Boromir in a bad light. Book Boromir is certainly full of pride, probably more than movie Boromir, but book Boromir would have picked up the hilt, instead of muttering "no more than a broken heirloom." I think many of you completely forget a lot of moments that book Boromir had that showed his morality. I don't remember the exact quote, so I may be paraphrasing, but before the Fellowship sets out of Rivendell Boromir blows his horn, much to Elrond's dismay. He replies that "though thereafter we will walk in the shadows, I will not go forth as a thief in the night." People will take that action as they will -- overly pompous, or what not -- but I see it as a reflection of Boromir's conviction and moral high ground.
There are more reasons, that perhaps I'll get into later. But for me, Book Boromir is way better than movie Boromir.
"I have seen it..."
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Saruman
Bree
Oct 30 2019, 6:38pm
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Not sure if you're asking me what chapter that scene is in, but I'm almost positive it's in "The Ring Goes South," right before the Fellowship set out from Rivendell.
"I have seen it..."
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