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***The Hobbit Read-through: Ch. 2 - Roast Mutton
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cats16
Valinor


May 28, 1:46am

Post #1 of 44 (2728 views)
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***The Hobbit Read-through: Ch. 2 - Roast Mutton Can't Post

Welcome, welcome and thrice welcome! It's my pleasure to kick things off for this week's discussion of Roast Mutton, that being the second chapter of The Hobbit. All are welcome to join--consider this your invitation to de-lurk once and for all!

Now the journey begins in earnest, with our little furry-footed hero sleeping in late. What do you make of Gandalf's kick-in-the-pants to jumpstart Bilbo's adventure? A little cruel, no? I just found myself on the wiki for British recruitment in WWI, and this quote stood out: "The [Parliamentary Recruiting] Committees appointed canvassers who were 'tactful and influential men' not liable for service, many were experienced political agents. Discharged veterans and fathers of serving men proved most effective. A few canvassers threatened rather than cajoled." Sound familiar? What other observations do you make about the start of this particular adventure? Any other books/tales that come to mind?

For the lawyers (and non-lawyers) in the room, do you have any thoughts on Thorin's message on the mantelpiece? Aside from the choice to leave it there in the first place! Do the terms seem fair to you?

I'm struck by this chapter's quick, efficient prose and how it introduces the episodic structure of the rest of the book. What are your thoughts on this style so far? Is it too sparsely-detailed for your liking? It makes me wonder if JRRT could've had success as a screenwriter, given its snappy pace.

And lo and behold, we meet Tom, Bert and William, as well as Tolkien's finest creation (according to DanielLB, if he's lurking about): the Talking Purse. In all seriousness, I find it odd that the dwarves approach the fire in pairs/small groups, especially since Bilbo didn't come back or make owl noises. Why not attack them as a larger unit? Am I missing something?

I'll be the ignorant American and ask the question: is that really a Cockney accent, or is it something else?

Perhaps you feel this is obvious, but what do you think is motivating Bilbo to continue on the journey by the end of this chapter?

There are plenty of other topics to discuss, so I'll leave it at that and open up discussion to the rest of the group. Please ask the obvious questions I neglected to ask, or the astute, perceptive ones I'll wish I had asked!

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




(This post was edited by cats16 on May 28, 1:46am)


noWizardme
Valinor


May 28, 9:04am

Post #2 of 44 (2607 views)
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Mockney trolls [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for introducing this chapter cats16!

The first thing we hear from the trolls is:


Quote
“Blimey, Bert, look what I’ve copped!” said William.
“What is it?” said the others coming up.
“Lumme, if I knows! What are yer?”


For me (British, aged in my 50s) the 'Blimey', 'copped' 'Lumme', and 'yer' are indeed clues to read this in Mockney (a cartoonish cockney accent). I think what Tolkien is doing here isn't to try and reproduce how people from the East End for London speak/spoke. He's calling up a stock character that still existed in children's entertainments in my childhood: the London criminal or gangster who is (fortunately) so stupid that he might be defeated by a group of plucky children.

Similarly, an honest but amusingly uneducated yokel would have been done in a 'Mummerset' accent - a cartoonish version of West Country speech (which I see in the hobbit talk of the opening LOTR chapters). Again it's about quickly conjuring a stock character - whether this is a good idea (given that it works by recruiting class, regional, or racial stereotypes and prejudices) is perhaps more controversial nowadays that it was when Tolkien was writing.

Had Tolkien been an author from the US, I wonder what accent he'd have picked - Chicago gangster, perhaps? Or what is the accent of those dim burglars from the Home Alone film?
I also wonder what kind of challenge the Trolls pose for translators, and how translators responded. I suppose that the options would include rendering them in Mockney still (but in French, Polish, Chinese, Italian whatever); or picking an accent that would have a similar effect int the target language.

I notice, though, that I can do the Trolls exchange above in (probably cartoonish) Australian accents. But I think that if I was supposed to tag them as tropish Australians, they'd say 'Streuth' and one of them would be called Bruce. Maybe that exchange could be read in other accents too?

I see that, once Tolkien has shown the reader how to 'do the voices' for the trolls he (sensibly enough) doesn't keep peppering his dialogue with other examples of perceived Cockney. Apart from the fisticuffs, I think this bit could be a couple of hobbits arguing (in Mummerset voices):


Quote
“You’re a fat fool, William,” said Bert, “as I’ve said afore this evening.”
“And you’re a lout!”
“And I won’t take that from you, Bill Huggins,” says Bert, and puts his fist in William’s eye.


(I'm also noticing here that Tolkien reports this bit in the present tense - 'puts his fist' - the narrator getting a bit more demotic than usual, maybe, to suit the action and its characters.)

Compare Joel Chandler Harris trying to render the voice of Uncle Remus:


Quote
One day atter Brer Rabbit fool 'im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got 'im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w'at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot 'er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn't hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin' down de road—lippity-clippity, clippity-lippity—dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin' 'long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz 'stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

Uncle Remus: His Songs and His Sayings By Joel Chandler Harris http://www.gutenberg.org/...6/pg2306-images.html


Which is a bit of a battle to read for me at least - perhaps it would be easier for someone with a better expectation of how Harris would expect Uncle Remus to sound.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Valinor


May 28, 9:08am

Post #3 of 44 (2607 views)
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[tangent] -rendering accents [In reply to] Can't Post

Writers have a problem that different accents say vowel sounds differently. So, short of resorting to IPA the writer can't be sure how readers are going to do it (without tricks like Tolkien's 'blimey', 'lumme' etc.).

And at the risk of me being irrelevant:
A bar scene:
Barman: Which beer would you like?
Customer: IPA, please
Barman (using the IPA alphabet): wɪtʃ biə wʊd juː lʌɪk?

(see https://allthingslinguistic.com/...9%AAt%CA%83-bi%C9%99 for this as a 'meme')

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Valinor


May 28, 11:40am

Post #4 of 44 (2594 views)
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Getting Bilbo going [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't get Gandalf as being threatening, myself (did I miss something?). He does create a sense of crisis, which is of course a common tactic to persuade someone to do something that they might not do if they were allowed time for calm reflection. But I think in the end Bilbo has an overwhelming sense of a last chance for an opportunity closing for good - perhaps it's a sort of instant mid-life crisis?

Alternatively, since the narrator tells us that Bilbo can't account for his behaviour, maybe magic was involved?

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Roverandom
The Shire


May 28, 12:51pm

Post #5 of 44 (2586 views)
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More Questions Than Answers [In reply to] Can't Post

This chapter, the beginning of the adventure proper, works well for me as a first step. While the trolls are undoubtedly dangerous, their comic behavior and language should give us a clue that the company will get through without too many scratches. Bilbo is allowed to try and fail, and Gandalf puts all to rights with no more magic than some clever ventriloquism. This episode allows for a little excitement after the long exposition of the first chapter, but it leaves open the possibility for greater tension and danger, as the quest continues. The first step in the stair of rising action.

Several questions are raised in this relatively brief chapter. I don't have an answer for cats16's. The dwarves knew, certainly better than Bilbo, that the situation was potentially dangerous, but they all walked up, one by one, in equally flippant fashion. Even Thorin, who "was not caught unawares" is guilty of underestimating his own danger and willingly steps into a lopsided fight. I will note that the author uses this as yet another opportunity to run through the names of all the dwarves in their regular order, as each pair or trio is captured and bagged.

Beyond that, I wonder how Bilbo got up late but still managed to light fires (presumably to heat water), wash up the dwarves' mess, "turn out the dining room", have one breakfast and begin on a second --- all before Gandalf shows up at half past ten?

Why did the author reveal that Gandalf had returned before proceeding with the passage of trickery that leads to the trolls being turned to stone? Wouldn't it have been more effective to have the argument without giving away the wizard's part in it until the surprise ending?

Lastly (for now), how did these three knuckleheads manage to come by the personal sword of the King of Gondolin, as well as two other magical elven blades?

For just as there has always been a Richard Webster, so too has there been a Black Scout of the North to greet him at the door on the sill of the evening and to guard him through his darkest dreams.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 28, 1:27pm

Post #6 of 44 (2582 views)
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The Blades in the Troll-hoard [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Lastly (for now), how did these three knuckleheads manage to come by the personal sword of the King of Gondolin, as well as two other magical elven blades?


If I had to guess, I would speculate that the elvish blades were lost during the campaign that brought down Angmar in T.A. 1975. They might have been scavenged from the field of battle only to later fall into the hands of the Trolls.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 28, 3:03pm

Post #7 of 44 (2571 views)
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Good point--I never noticed that accents went away [In reply to] Can't Post

It's like a barrage of cockney at the beginning of their dialogue, then they start talking more normally. Just, as you say, to make the quick establishment that these are stereotypical characters rolled out of the storage bin to play their part. They're big, dumb criminals, so as Rover points out, it won't be hard to overcome them, even if the dwarves themselves are dumb and show up in pairs without making any owl noises back to their companions about what they're finding or revising their tactics, which clearly aren't working.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 28, 3:44pm

Post #8 of 44 (2570 views)
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Roast Mutton, and other tasty titles [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for leading this chapter, Cats. Or should I say, thanks for leading our adventure into a troll-trap where they nearly got squished into jelly, and it's only Ch. 2! Wink

Gandalf and Bilbo: calling him a "bully" goes too far, but there is an abruptness, bossiness, and superior attitude to him throughout the story, and I think that Bilbo was bullied into running out of his house to join the dwarves and their adventure. But there are also three contributing factors in Bilbo:
  1. He's naive in many respects, and thinks "an adventure" is akin to a very long walk in the countryside where you go beyond your usual hiking haunts.
  2. He's impulsive (very out of character for a predictable, respectable Baggins); squealing in fright in Bag End from a panic attack; stealing the Talking Purse; attacking the trolls when Thorin fought them--I won't wear out the list.
  3. He'll always have the volatility of that Took/Baggins dichotomy making him act one way, then the other. The Took wanted an adventure!
Thorin's message: Dwarves can be polite when they want to be, can't they? I have always liked the humor in the letter with the reference to paying for Bilbo's funeral expenses, if needed. Not an encouraging thought for a pampered, domestic aristocrat!

Gandalf (again): his role in the adventure remains ambiguous, but notice that the dwarves' letter gives one 14th of the plunder to Bilbo, as if Gandalf is not #15 and not accounted a regular member. Then when they are traveling, he simply disappears without explanation, "never saying if he was in the adventure or merely keeping them company for awhile." I suppose they can't pin him down because he's a wizard, and wizards are inherently mysterious and unpinnable. But try thinking of this in adult terms, where people on expeditions are assigned roles and duties, and at the very least are expected to stay or go, and it seems very odd. It works in a children's story though, where all the rules are fluid. (But try thinking of this behavior from Gandalf in LOTR after the Fellowship left Rivendell, with him coming & going on a whim, and again, it seems very odd.)


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 28, 3:56pm

Post #9 of 44 (2566 views)
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Uncle Remus [In reply to] Can't Post

If it helps any, I'm an American (though not from the South, where this dialect is supposed to be from), and I find it work to try to decipher what's being said, though I can figure it out if I do try. But it is pretty extreme.

Maybe one advantage an American has with it is the slang replacement of "th" with "d", which is something we hear from people who aren't well-educated (or didn't have parents telling them not to to talk that way). So "wid dat" = "with that," and "de big road" = "the big road," etc. I'm not sure how common that happens across the Commonwealth or Anglophonia, except that if you didn't grow up saying "This is the thing," it's very hard to get that "th" right as an adult. Which is why our cartoons have French waiters say, "Here eez ze table for your deener."


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 28, 3:58pm

Post #10 of 44 (2568 views)
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IPA--ugh [In reply to] Can't Post

Whenever I see an unfamiliar word in Wikipedia and glance at the IPA pronunciation for it, I grumble to myself, "Oh, as if THAT clarifies it all! Now it looks even more exotic and unsayable."


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 28, 4:07pm

Post #11 of 44 (2565 views)
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Tolkien as screenwriter [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I'm struck by this chapter's quick, efficient prose and how it introduces the episodic structure of the rest of the book. What are your thoughts on this style so far? Is it too sparsely-detailed for your liking? It makes me wonder if JRRT could've had success as a screenwriter, given its snappy pace.

Great observation! I'd never thought of this before, but you're on target here, and Wiz points out that Tolkien uses stock characters (& accents) for a more efficient use of time. Notice how the trolls are not a balrog, and we're not debating whether they're demons or a corrupt man or have wings or whatever. Tolkien's approach is: "Look--trolls!" and we follow along with the action and then move on to Elves singing tra-la-la.
It's probably important that there are no deaths until the end of the story. What if Fili & Kili were crushed into jelly before Gandalf saved everyone? It would slow down the story a lot as we might grieve for them (or not, since we can only remember them as the younger, smiling dwarves at this point).

I suppose to really be a screenwriter, Tolkien would need to master the technique of Star Trek redshirts getting killed along the way to increase the sense of peril for the main characters who nevertheless are never in any real peril.


noWizardme
Valinor


May 28, 4:14pm

Post #12 of 44 (2556 views)
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Try drinking some IPA first? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Valinor


May 28, 4:24pm

Post #13 of 44 (2561 views)
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Kill the monsters, break down the door, get the treasure... [In reply to] Can't Post

There’s got to be a good role playing game in that...Wink

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 28, 4:41pm

Post #14 of 44 (2553 views)
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That's the problem with Tolkien--he stole all his story ideas from video games and RPGs. There's nothing new here. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


InTheChair
Lorien

May 28, 5:35pm

Post #15 of 44 (2552 views)
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how did these three knuckleheads manage to come by the personal sword of the King of Gondolin, as well as two other magical elven blades? [In reply to] Can't Post

It does take some work to figure out any possibility.

Someone, unless Tuor, and Elf, must have thought it worth while to haul Turgons sword out of the ruin of his tower (unless he kept it elsewhere), carry it Across the Crissaegirim (spelling?) and all the way down to the havens. (Egalmoth?)

From there someone (probably an Elf) might have taken it, and Orcrist by sea, either to Balar, and then on, or directly to Lindon, where it might have ended up in the hands of Gil-Galad, or else one of his captains. (Who?)

After this there are many times through the second and third ages, where the swords might have been lost in battle, stolen, forgotten (unlikely), traded for Rings, given in gift, or in some other way eloped from home.

Evil creatures as a rule detest touching revered elven items, so it's a bit strange that these trolls didn't mind them. Either they must not have know, or else have been too stupid to mind, or else to stupid to be truly evil. Did the Trolls know they had the swords? Did they have the swords? Or did they just happen to be in the cave where the Trolls chose to reside?

History of Sting is not given I think. It also may come from Gondolin, or it might have been made in Rivendell third age, or anything in between. It does glow like the other making you suspect it is of similar make and the same age.

Then Gandalf and Thorin, and Bilbo lay their hands on them, and decide to keep them. Even Elrond who by descent might claim ownership rights, at least to Glamdring, doesn't seem to bother too much.

In the end even the Dwarves decide to give up one of the swords to bury it with Thorin. That could be tradition of course, but tend to suggest that maybe the swords weren't all that valuable after all. At least not to Dwarves.

One wonders how many other Elven swords from the old days were around to be found in the wilds of Eriador in those days?


It might be worth noting that the Elves, if they buried their people at all, didn't seem to have the same tradition as Dwarves and Men of burying their weapons with them. At least not unless it could be done in some orderly fashion.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on May 28, 5:42pm)


sevilodorf
Grey Havens


May 28, 5:52pm

Post #16 of 44 (2545 views)
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Bilbo just can't make up his mind and various observations [In reply to] Can't Post

Really relieved they left but a trifle disappointed.

Then he puts it all aside and tidies up and eats and prepares to eat again... then as he says... He could never remember how he found himself outside...Gandalf's got a bit of Saruman's trickery of the voice, in my opinion.

And it makes perfect sense that his neighbors and relatives presume him dead - he walked/ran away leaving his second breakfast on the table and all the washing up left to do. Though what they actually thought had happened to him would make another wonderful story. Perhaps the Took side of his family tried to hush things up but couldn't overcome the legal machinations of the Sackville-Bagginses. Are they considered his legal heirs as Otho is the son of the nearest relative of Bungo?

Bilbo also constantly goes back and forth during the journey... when it's pony rides in the May sunshine he's happy and when it's raining he's grouchy. Doesn't want to be a burglar but decides to pick a pocket anyway.

Considering these dwarves endured some hard times after Erebor they seem almost as "hobbity" toward the wear and tear of camping out as Bilbo. Also they do a lot of fighting amongst themselves -- is Thorin's authority as certain as he would like?

Tom, Bert and Bill -- Mockney Trolls -- the accent is deliberate just as a Southern dialect would be used in American writing of that time period to show lack of education or quick sketch a character. (Anyone read Dick Francis -- publishing beginning in 60's -- he tends to use characters with blatant accents as stereotypes as well)

The trolls -- how time gets away from you when you're having fun arguing -- should have just tossed all those bags into the house and argued in there.

Dwarish magic or Gandalf? the laying of the spells on the troll's horde?

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
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cats16
Valinor


May 28, 7:32pm

Post #17 of 44 (2527 views)
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American trolls [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd say Edward G Robinson's tough guy Chicago gangster voice is the American equivalent of what Tolkien was going for. Nowadays one might go for an Italian New York accent from a Scorsese movie.

Interesting! I hadn't heard of Mummerset by name, but know what you mean when you describe it.

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




cats16
Valinor


May 28, 7:38pm

Post #18 of 44 (2530 views)
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Time [In reply to] Can't Post

What's equally as impressive as Bilbo's speedy clean-up is that ~10 minute mile he ran (probably even a little more than a mile). In high school gym class I could run a mile in 8ish minutes, at my best--and I wasn't a hobbit with hobbit-sized legs!

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




cats16
Valinor


May 29, 12:08am

Post #19 of 44 (2486 views)
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Nearly-dead nephews [In reply to] Can't Post

Funny you mention death, since Fili and Kili have already been nearly-drowned on account of the spooked pony (I tend to forget that this happens in the story). And the dwarves were nearly suffocated by the Trolls' sacks. Suffocation and drowning are topics in and of themselves!

Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29, 2:09am

Post #20 of 44 (2474 views)
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Of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

They were LARPing!

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


noWizardme
Valinor


May 29, 11:17am

Post #21 of 44 (2424 views)
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Unreliable wizards [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose that at least Gandalf has a reasonable excuse for going off this time - he says he expected their route to become dangerous decided to scout ahead. There's a bit of irony, I thought, in the danger coming upon the rest of the party while he's off looking for other dangers elsewhere.

It must be tough being a mentor/parent character in children's fiction - always getting put out of the picture on one pretext or another so that the hero has to solve problems themselves. Smile

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 29, 11:34am

Post #22 of 44 (2422 views)
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And yet, Reliable Rangers [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trying to think of a single time that Aragorn went off on a side mission either when first accompanying the 4 hobbits to Rivendell or anytime after. And I couldn’t. The Fellowship broke up, of course, but he always stuck with whatever comrades he had at hand. Yet he is the surrogate mentor/protector when Gandalf is running around who knows where (probably off shopping in Diagon Alley or playing badminton with Eru).

The only thing I could think of was when he climbed Amon Hen searching for Frodo, which meant Boromir had to face the Orcs without him and thus die. (Though I think if Aragorn had been there, we’d have 2 dead warriors instead of one.)


noWizardme
Valinor


May 29, 11:37am

Post #23 of 44 (2422 views)
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"what do you think is motivating Bilbo to continue on the journey by the end of this chapter? " [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a good question, and doesn't seem at all obvious to me. That doesn't seem to be very clear - the chapter ends with getting the Loot and with Gandalf and what he has been doing; we don't get an insight into Bilbo's thoughts.

I suppose that, as a child I would just not have wondered - of course Bilbo will carry on with the adventure because I can see there's chapters to go still. It wouldn't have occurred to me to look for an explanation as to why Bilbo doesn't decide to go home.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29, 1:22pm

Post #24 of 44 (2416 views)
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The Dwarves come to investigate. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Several questions are raised in this relatively brief chapter. I don't have an answer for cats16's. The dwarves knew, certainly better than Bilbo, that the situation was potentially dangerous, but they all walked up, one by one, in equally flippant fashion. Even Thorin, who "was not caught unawares" is guilty of underestimating his own danger and willingly steps into a lopsided fight. I will note that the author uses this as yet another opportunity to run through the names of all the dwarves in their regular order, as each pair or trio is captured and bagged.


This isn't too bothersome at first considering the Dwarves do not yet know the nature of the trouble. However, this behavior becomes down-right reckless by the time that half of the company is missing! Also since Tolkien does not seem to have equipped the company with much in the way of weapons; even Thorin has to content himself with a burning branch snatched from the Trolls' fire.

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29, 1:27pm

Post #25 of 44 (2409 views)
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A Timely Warning [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I suppose that at least Gandalf has a reasonable excuse for going off this time - he says he expected their route to become dangerous decided to scout ahead. There's a bit of irony, I thought, in the danger coming upon the rest of the party while he's off looking for other dangers elsewhere.


At least Gandalf managed to meet up with a pair of Elves from Rivendell who were able to warn him of exactly what danger to look for. In the context of Tolkien's greater legendarium, can we speculate that Elrond's with a number of his folk were away on other business and so had not managed to deal with the trouble yet themselves?

"I may be on the side of the angels, but do not think for one second that I am one of them." - Sherlock

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