Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Off Topic: The Pollantir:
Would you open the door?
Poll: Would you open the door?
Yes
No
I don't know
View Results (23 votes)
 

Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 9 2018, 5:22pm

Post #1 of 37 (5476 views)
Shortcut
Would you open the door? Can't Post

First, let me say I am not trying to be political here, this is more of a moral/philosophical question. Everybody probably knows that the USA experienced a horrific incident a couple of weeks ago, and as a result the University I work at decided to have an "active shooter" drill. We were all supposed to find a safe place to hide, lock the door & wait out the incident. Later I heard that there were at least 2 places where the students opened the door to let other people in. I was talking to the lady at the front desk (who tragically would probably be the first victim in a real scenario), and I told her that I didn't think I could NOT open the door. Yes I know it could be a risk, and my husband told me it would be a mistake, but it just seems wrong to not let other people in just because the door closed before they got there. Of course, if it ever happened (God forbid!) I may find that I'm too scared to move, much less open the door, so this could be a moot point. Please, I don't want to talk about the related issue, just whether or not you'd open the door, and I can only see three possible answers. But I'd really like to know what anyone else thinks about this.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 9 2018, 7:07pm

Post #2 of 37 (5328 views)
Shortcut
I know that from a safety point of view [In reply to] Can't Post

the door should stay closed - not risk the safety of all those in the room for just one more person - but I wouldn't be able to deny them. I'd open it.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 9 2018, 7:57pm

Post #3 of 37 (5329 views)
Shortcut
Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I survived and they didn't I couldn't live with myself.


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 9 2018, 7:58pm)


Annael
Immortal


Mar 10 2018, 6:35pm

Post #4 of 37 (5235 views)
Shortcut
what he said [In reply to] Can't Post

a related poll--at least, it's what I thought of--is "would you run toward or away from" some trouble. Experience has taught me that I run toward it. If I see bullying, if I see someone mistreating a child or animal, if I see someone behaving suspiciously, I'm in their face before I know it. (One time I saw a neighbor hitting his dog and I have no memory of covering the 100 or so feet between us, I was just THERE.) I have the "fight" instinct. Rationally this could be seen as really stupid, but reason doesn't come into it.

So I'm not even sure I would be hiding.


Meneldor
Valinor


Mar 10 2018, 8:58pm

Post #5 of 37 (5218 views)
Shortcut
Exactly right. [In reply to] Can't Post

Better for a few people to be shot in the face as everyone rushes the shooter than for everyone to be shot in the back running away. Most normal people would have to overcome the natural survival instinct to do that, but doing the right thing is often hard, or else everyone would do it.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 11 2018, 12:46am

Post #6 of 37 (5197 views)
Shortcut
I'd like to think that I would open the door. [In reply to] Can't Post

We never really know unless we are actually faced with a choice like this.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 11 2018, 1:23am

Post #7 of 37 (5203 views)
Shortcut
Agreed with Meneldor & Annael . [In reply to] Can't Post

If a half-dozen people had gone ‘Beorn’ on this monster how many lives might have been saved? Hiding is for the FEW ineffective police or SROs - and the children of course . . .


But as Otaku says “We never really know unless we are actually faced with a choice like this.” Yet those of us that have been in actual combat know that the best defense is an overwhelming offence, in most cases.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 11 2018, 4:20am

Post #8 of 37 (5180 views)
Shortcut
I've always said [In reply to] Can't Post

that if I were 6 feet from any shooter that I'd go for the gun. Chances are good that anyone that close would be shot, so part of me thinks "what have you got to lose?" Now, whether I would actually do that, or freeze in terror, or duck behind something, is another subject. About 20(something) years ago, I studied Ju-Jitsu, and did learn how to disarm someone holding a gun - really not that difficult, if I recall, but I've been out of practice. But for some reason, people are suggesting that you "shout or throw something" at the shooter, which I think is TERRIBLE advice. That's like saying, "hey look, I'm a target!" Dumb, totally DUMB! Yes, I'd like to think if I were close I'd go for the gun, not trying to be macho or anything, that just might be the best way to survive.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 11 2018, 4:34am

Post #9 of 37 (5178 views)
Shortcut
I'd also like to think [In reply to] Can't Post

that if I actually saw the shooter that I'd try to get the gun away from him, as I mentioned in a post below. And I know that at one H.S. shooting (how much does it suck that there's so many?) that's exactly what happened - the shooter was tackled by some of the kids in the cafeteria, so that day it seems like only 2 people died. But more to the point, judging from the responses there are many who wouldn't follow the "protocol" of keeping the door locked and not coming out until the police give the all-clear. And that makes me wonder if the "protocol" is all that great to begin with. Everything about it feels wrong to me - if there's one shooter in a building with hundreds of people, then most likely whoever is knocking on the door is NOT the shooter. As Darkstone said, if I survived & they didn't, I couldn't live with that.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 11 2018, 7:00am

Post #10 of 37 (5166 views)
Shortcut
I'm the opposite. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be low and running away to safety. I have intervened in one fight but it was more a struggle and it was in the car park of a police station, so I knew help would be on the way quickly. But with a gun involved? I'm gone. I'd rather be alive and helping in the aftermath.


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Mar 11 2018, 7:01am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 11 2018, 4:16pm

Post #11 of 37 (5128 views)
Shortcut
And rightfully so Ataahua [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'd be low and running away to safety.

Contrary to A popular opinion, in today’s ‘somewhat’ sick society there IS a difference between male and female. To expect the average woman to rush and attempt to disarm a crazed male killer with an AR-15 is ludicrous.


Starling
Half-elven


Mar 11 2018, 5:31pm

Post #12 of 37 (5129 views)
Shortcut
Speaking of ludicrous [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't even know how to comment on this thread without 'getting political'.
The cultural differences here are so huge!


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 11 2018, 8:21pm

Post #13 of 37 (5095 views)
Shortcut
I think you and I are on the same page. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 11 2018, 8:39pm

Post #14 of 37 (5102 views)
Shortcut
Well I can understand that, but [In reply to] Can't Post

things are what they are in the USA and probably aren't going to change, so we have these drills. I understand Israel & other countries with active terrorists have similar drills. Sometimes I think that our lone shooters aren't that different from terrorists. I think that terror cells are just very good at recruiting lone shooter types, because it has to take a certain mindset to want to do something like that. The ONLY good thing that came out of Parkland is that the guy was captured alive, and therefore he could be studied, and maybe we can learn something about what sets these people off. Most of them kill themselves or die in a shootout with the police. But I need to stop now before this drifts into the political arena - my question was over the morality of being told to keep the door closed and IMO turn my back on others who are screaming for help. I just don't think I could do that. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 11 2018, 8:49pm

Post #15 of 37 (5102 views)
Shortcut
FWIW, [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say the same about anyone, male or female. But that's our different world views.


In Reply To
To expect the average woman to rush and attempt to disarm a crazed male killer with an AR-15 is ludicrous.



Ethel Duath
Half-elven


Mar 11 2018, 9:27pm

Post #16 of 37 (5091 views)
Shortcut
I have exactly the same reaction--don't know how I get there [In reply to] Can't Post

but there I am.

I hope I would do the same with the door; but I've never been in that level of danger . . .


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 12 2018, 2:19am

Post #17 of 37 (5060 views)
Shortcut
Cultural differences perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The cultural differences here are so huge!

Age and experience for sure. My first instinct is to protect the children AND women. Old school and outdated thinking? I trust not. My choice of words may not have been the most sensible or comprehensible and I offer an apology to those offended, but I am saddened to have lived to see my country go from a morally high standard where this type of atrocity was unheard of to a country creeping its way to becoming irrationally divided with a bald unnecessary hatred. Is it a ‘cultural difference’ for a man to rush to the aid of a woman or child in distress? Of course not. But as I said there ARE differences between men and women, physically and mentally and psychologically. Men are larger, faster and stronger, and thus more suited for the confrontation in question. Women are less confrontational, more empathetic, and usually more spiritually enlightened, and thus more suited to comforting the children and dealing with the aftermath than attempting a physical confrontation with the shooter. (This is NOT intended to put either sex above the other!)
I hope I won’t again be too misunderstood as I’m really not really the insensitive guy my rash words might seem to portray… really!


Starling
Half-elven


Mar 12 2018, 6:21am

Post #18 of 37 (5040 views)
Shortcut
I think [In reply to] Can't Post


But I need to stop now before this drifts into the political arena


the horse has well and truly bolted on that one.



Starling
Half-elven


Mar 12 2018, 6:37am

Post #19 of 37 (5039 views)
Shortcut
My comment about cultural differences [In reply to] Can't Post

was not referencing gender specifically.

But since you bring it up here, I don't find it particularly useful to apply what I would consider to be gender stereotypes to anything.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 12 2018, 3:25pm

Post #20 of 37 (4995 views)
Shortcut
Dunno [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Contrary to A popular opinion, in today’s ‘somewhat’ sick society there IS a difference between male and female. To expect the average woman to rush and attempt to disarm a crazed male killer with an AR-15 is ludicrous.


How about rushing a polar bear?

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=6574


Ciars
Rohan


Mar 12 2018, 7:18pm

Post #21 of 37 (4955 views)
Shortcut
Doors [In reply to] Can't Post

To me this is one of those questions which can’t be answered. It’s also hard to avoid being political in response as my initial reaction would be one of why you would be /are placed in that position to begin with. There’s a myriad of possible causes leading to the need for the question to be posed or indeed dealt with in real life all of which stem from the source, that is how did the situation arise in the first place? Which probably comes down to a failure of either government, health agencies, other authorities in say education, family, social work, stores, individual / society pressures and reaction to, mental health care, which have lead directly or indirectly to the situation arriving in the first place. To me, the question really is how to manage the doors needing to be closed or opened, indeed why the need for drills in the first place. Sadly, in the times we live in there seems to be a react rather than prevent response after events such as that in Parkland which led to drills being held which (apologies) again dangerously verges on a political view. In short, it does come down to the timing and reasoning behind the door action: who closes them, who controls them, and who then opens them.


(This post was edited by Ciars on Mar 12 2018, 7:33pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 13 2018, 3:59am

Post #22 of 37 (4912 views)
Shortcut
Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But as Otaku says “We never really know unless we are actually faced with a choice like this.” Yet those of us that have been in actual combat...



After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.



In Reply To
... know that the best defense is an overwhelming offence, in most cases."


As Tolkien surely learned. Which is why the staggeringly foolish quest of destroying the ring was the best defense against it.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 13 2018, 10:15pm

Post #23 of 37 (4844 views)
Shortcut
Enjoy [In reply to] Can't Post

One post to go. About twelve sentences or twenty-four half sentences (your choice) that desperately need twisting. Indulge yourself. :)


In Reply To
After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.

I’m not at all cognizant of the meaning of this sentence. Should I be insulted?


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 14 2018, 3:01am

Post #24 of 37 (4779 views)
Shortcut
Well! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
One post to go. About twelve sentences or twenty-four half sentences (your choice) that desperately need twisting. Indulge yourself. :)


That you think I am twisting your words is quite puzzling.

That you state that I would enjoy doing so is quite insulting.



In Reply To

In Reply To
After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.

I’m not at all cognizant of the meaning of this sentence.


I am merely agreeing with your agreement with Otaku that only once one has been through an actual crucible of fire, such as, as you yourself suggested, actual combat, does one have true self-knowledge of how one would act in such a situation. Such self-knowledge may be either heartening or disheartening. I was of course using the pronoun "you" as a generality, not in reference to you specifically. Perhaps restating it as "After having been in combat one no longer has to wonder what kind of person one is" would allay your unwarranted suspicions.



In Reply To
Should I be insulted?


I suppose some would find the presumptuous and unsolicited support of one's stated opinion by an ignorant old country boy like myself insulting.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 14 2018, 10:13am

Post #25 of 37 (4730 views)
Shortcut
Confused by sentence construction? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Bracegirdle is only being half-serious, but he also seems to be confused by the odd construction of your sentence.


Quote
After having been in combat that you no longer have to wonder what kind of person you are.


You have to admit, Darkstone, that it doesn't read well as a stand-alone sentence. I think B. was having trouble placing it in its proper context.


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 14 2018, 10:16am)


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 14 2018, 12:57pm

Post #26 of 37 (4879 views)
Shortcut
Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is why I made the gracious assumption that his ungracious assumption that my response to him was malicious was the result of a misunderstanding.


Annael
Immortal


Mar 14 2018, 3:29pm

Post #27 of 37 (4872 views)
Shortcut
I'd just like to offer my experience [In reply to] Can't Post

I was one of the first women ever hired by the Forest Service to be a firefighter. I am neither large nor particularly strong, muscle-wise (I was 125 pounds at the time). But what they found was that while the men were stronger at lifting, all of us were capable of carrying a 40-pound hose or pump up a hill. We let the guys run the chain saws because, dunno why, guys just seem to like making noise!

But when we were on an actual fire, where we often worked 18-hour days and sometimes round the clock, another difference asserted itself. The guys wore out after 8 or 12 hours, while the women just kept going and going. Which makes sense when you think that women have to endure childbirth, which is rarely over quickly!

As for being confrontative, as noted, I'm hardwired that way, always have been. My protective instinct is pretty strong towards those who can't defend themselves: children, animals, people behind counters who take lots of abuse for things they are not responsible for . . .

So I read your words and go "nope, don't relate to that idea of who I'm supposed to be AT ALL."


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 14 2018, 4:36pm

Post #28 of 37 (4863 views)
Shortcut
Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

A man’s greater muscle mass can constrict blood flow and thus lessen muscle endurance.

Also after 8 or so hours of intense exercise a man’s testosterone levels tend to plummet, leading to fatigue. A woman does not have to worry about such fatigue because her testosterone levels tend to remain constant (or even increase) during exercise.

So science confirms your experience.


Annael
Immortal


Mar 14 2018, 5:19pm

Post #29 of 37 (4856 views)
Shortcut
but what about the noise thing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously. The revving cars, the subwoofers, the fireworks . . . what is up with that?


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Mar 14 2018, 5:21pm

Post #30 of 37 (4854 views)
Shortcut
I think we can put an end to this sub-thread here. [In reply to] Can't Post

We're going down a rabbit-hole of assumptions and judgement. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, please do it on private messages.


Annael
Immortal


Mar 14 2018, 8:03pm

Post #31 of 37 (4844 views)
Shortcut
another anecdote [In reply to] Can't Post

In college, I woke up once to find a stranger trying to crawl on top of me.

I hit him so hard I knocked him to the floor. I then chased him out of the dormitory screaming like a banshee. If he had not outrun me I don't know what I might have done to him.

Yeah, that "fight" response pumps you up!


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Mar 14 2018, 8:40pm

Post #32 of 37 (4832 views)
Shortcut
Agreed Ataahua [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think we can put an end to this sub-thread here. We're going down a rabbit-hole of assumptions and judgement.

And divisive misunderstanding.


Altaira
Superuser


Mar 16 2018, 4:54am

Post #33 of 37 (4666 views)
Shortcut
My answer is "other" [In reply to] Can't Post

Based on my instincts and past experiences, if I were in that room, I would be the one holding the door open so people could get in. I wouldn't close the door until the danger was so close that I was certain that not doing so could result in putting everyone who was already safe inside in mortal danger. After the door was closed, I would concentrate on listening to where the threat was. If gunfire was literally right outside, I probably wouldn't re-open the door as my first loyalty would be to protect the people that were already safe. If the gunfire, yelling, or whatever stopped, then suddenly someone begged to get in, I would also be hesitant in case it was the person that was the threat. I'd interrogate them, look to the others in the room as to whether they felt safe letting that person in, then open the door and hope for the best based on my and their instincts.

As for fight or flight, my instincts are governed by the need to protect. If I feel I can preempt confrontation or injury, I've been known to confront an aggressor. If someone has already been injured, my instinct is to protect them rather than go after an aggressor, even if it means they get away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 16 2018, 5:50pm

Post #34 of 37 (4620 views)
Shortcut
And hungry coyotes [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.journalnow.com/...f3-b7134ae7f50b.html


Attalus
Lorien


Mar 20 2018, 5:16am

Post #35 of 37 (4315 views)
Shortcut
Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Once the door is closed, I would be blocking it and not letting anybody in till the police got there. No matter what noises came from the other side of the door.


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Mar 28 2018, 5:46pm

Post #36 of 37 (3959 views)
Shortcut
We were firmly told in training never to open the door [In reply to] Can't Post

because the pleading voice on the other side could be the shooter. I don't know what I'd do in real life. I hope to God I never have to find out.

Edit: if it were just me in the room it would be different than if I had a roomful of students to protect, I think. But of course I've never been tested. I do tend to follow the rules, so when the the school sheriffs tell me in training "this is what you must do" I tend to respect their expertise.


(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Mar 28 2018, 5:50pm)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Apr 30 2018, 2:42pm

Post #37 of 37 (3641 views)
Shortcut
you said it [In reply to] Can't Post

 

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.