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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
LOTR unoffcial read through Appendices

Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 2:52pm

Post #1 of 87 (3994 views)
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LOTR unoffcial read through Appendices Can't Post

Appendix A - Annals of the Kings and Rulers

*Note how Tolkien keeps up the faux realism of his works as presented to the reader: "The section A III, Durin's Folk, was "probably" derived from Gimli the Dwarf....actual extracts from longer annals.....notes within quotation are found in the sources....etc."

He keeps the reader enthralled in the story and you imagine he has discovered a long lost trove of ancient documents from some monastery that was preserved since AElfwine brought them back form his tarrying.

"When Ælfwine woke up, he found himself lying on a beach of Tol Eressëa and a group of Elves pulling up his ship on the shore. He came to Tavrobel, where lived Pengolodh who told him the Ainulindalë,[5] and he was shown the Lammas,[6] the Quenta Silmarillion, the Golden Book,[7] the Narn i Chîn Húrin,[8] and the Annals of Aman and Beleriand.

Ælfwine learned much of this lore. When he returned to England, he translated the Silmarillion, the Annals and the Narn into Old English, giving explanations on the many names.

Descendants of Ælfwine of the present time experienced memories or visions of their ancestors around the fall of Atlantis (cf. Númenor: Inspiration).

[edit] Other versions of the Legendarium"

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ælfwine


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 2:54pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 3:22pm

Post #2 of 87 (3832 views)
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New info for me...Numenor was originally Elenna [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.henneth-annun.net/...es_view.cfm?plid=693

"Elenna ([eˈlenːa]) or Elenna-nórë (Q, pron. [eˌlenːa-ˈnoːre]) also Andor, the "Land of Gift", was the island on which the realm of Númenor was founded.[2]
The name meant 'Starwards',[3] from the fact that the first Men to inhabit that island came to it by following the light of the Star of Eärendil." http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elenna

"And they called that land Elenna, which is Starwards; but also Anadûnë, which is Westernesse, Númenórë in the High Eldarin tongue."

Origin of the name Elena:

A cognate of the Greek Helenē (light, torch, bright).


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 3:27pm)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 8 2017, 5:39pm

Post #3 of 87 (3822 views)
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Always fun to delve into Tolkien's word-hoard [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the authority for linking Tolkien's Quenya root word 'El, Elen' (star) to the Greek name 'Helen' (which seems to be of uncertain origin and meaning)? I didn't see that in the henneth-annun.net page you linked to.

I mostly ask because Tolkien hated it when people made connections based on sound between his languages and real-world places or terms; yet in the very early phases of his language development his own notes acknowledge (occasionally) some such inspirations and connections.



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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 5:55pm

Post #4 of 87 (3816 views)
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He can hate me in the after life I guess.... Authority? It is not linked on henneth-annun [In reply to] Can't Post

I just wanted to find a known primary world name that is similar. Both have the attribute of "bright" i.e. star related. The info came from a simple name search.

Tolkien certainly used primary world languages as the basis for his created ones...Finnish, Anglo-Saxon etc.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 5:56pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 6:12pm

Post #5 of 87 (3810 views)
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Star - Finnish - tahti - Sindarin - tinu - Hindi taara- Estonian taht [In reply to] Can't Post

Gujarati taro - Bangla taraka


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 6:17pm)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 8 2017, 7:29pm

Post #6 of 87 (3800 views)
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OK, I guess [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that Tolkien used linguistic structures and sound patterns for his invented languages that drew on well-known real-world languages. Quenya as you say draws on Finnish, and Sindarin draws on Welsh - by degrees and with interesting variations. Old English exists, and he used it to render Rohirric and a number of associated languages of the North and the early hobbit-folk; he didn't invent any language that drew on Old English, as far as I know.

His Elvish languages' vocabulary is a different matter - he seems to have built root words based partly on real-world inspirations, and partly on sound/poetic associations. His delight was in the aesthetic of a word in of itself and how it could be manipulated according to the phonetic and syntactical rules he'd set up. It was relatively rare for him to take a real word and use it as the basis for one of his invented words. One of the closest examples he admitted to was his root Mor- (black) which, of course, associates closely with Latin Mors, Mortis (death), since we associate dark color with funerary imagery. But death in many ways is really a white concept, evoking the lack of blood, paleness of ghosts, color of bones, etc. - it's going down the wrong path to connect Mordor, Moria, Moriquendi, the Morannon, etc. with death. Contrast this with, for instance, the name of J. K. Rowling's character Voldemort, with its implicit but creative use of the French mort for death.

What I don't see, getting back to our topic, is any connection between El-, elen- (star) and the Greek name Helen, which may (at a guess, according to linguistic authorities) relate to the word for torch or perhaps the moon - neither connotes the sense of brightness and minuteness that characterizes stars in Tolkien's Elvish world.

I admit I'm at a loss for how tinu, one of the three words in Sindarin that denote star in some form (the others, more common, are gil- and el-), can be linked etymologically to the other Indo-European words you listed, all of which are built around a 'tahr-' base.



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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 8 2017, 8:32pm

Post #7 of 87 (3799 views)
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Not all notes have the quotation marks they should. [In reply to] Can't Post

Someone brought this to Hammond and Scull's attention in the past five or ten years. Can't remember the specifics off the top of my head.

There are four lights.

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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 8:38pm

Post #8 of 87 (3798 views)
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Honestly, you think to deeply on this - [In reply to] Can't Post

"What I don't see, getting back to our topic, is any connection between El-, elen- (star) and the Greek name Helen, which may (at a guess, according to linguistic authorities) relate to the word for torch or perhaps the moon - neither connotes the sense of brightness and minuteness that characterizes stars in Tolkien's Elvish world."

**I did not say Tolkien used the Greek Elen as his root but that both words have suggestive meanings --

Elenna - The name meant 'Starwards.
What is the shape of Numenor / Elenna? - Star shaped.

Elen....Welsh....USAGE: Welsh PRONOUNCED: EL-en celestial, fire, light, nature, weather
Elen...Greek

len
image: http://cdn.thinkbabynames.com/img/play.png

Pronunciation of Elen [elen] as a girls' name is of Welsh and Greek origin, and the meaning of Elen is "sun ray". Welsh and Scandinavian form of Helen and hence closely related to the English name Ellen. The Welsh word elen means "nymph" though this is unlikely to be the origin of the name as it is found in early Welsh texts as the equivalent of Helen, the name of the mother of Constantine, Also form of Eleanor.

ASSOCIATED WITH greek, sun (star), scandinavian, nymph (goddess)


Read more at http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Elen#XjZi6EQfC8cllebK.99

"I admit I'm at a loss for how tinu, one of the three words in Sindarin that denote star in some form (the others, more common, are gil- and el-), can be linked etymologically to the other Indo-European words you listed, all of which are built around a 'tahr-' base."

***They all begin with T - I never said they were linked but that have commonality.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 8:39pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 8 2017, 9:09pm

Post #9 of 87 (3793 views)
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Tar [In reply to] Can't Post

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-tar#Finnish

Suffix[edit]
-tar (genitive -tari, partitive -tari)

Forms feminine agent or occupational nouns
kaunis "beautiful" &#8594; kaunitar "beautiful woman"
laulja "singer" &#8594; lauljatar "female singer"

Finnish[edit]
Etymology[edit]
Supposedly clipped from tytär (“daughter”) and then adapted to vowel harmony.

Suffix[edit]
-tar (front vowel harmony variant -tär)

Forms the female counterpart of nouns indicating a person.
kuningas king &#8594; kuningatar queen
näyttelijä actor &#8594; näyttelijätär actress
saksalainen German &#8594; saksatar a German female

Irish Gaelic: refers to the Hill of Tara, or Teamhair na Rí, the seat of the kings of Ireland from neolithic times (c. 5000 BC) to the 6th century or later. With this reference, Tara is taken to mean "Queen".
Wiki

Persian...Tar - to cross over
Egyptian - Tar - road
Sumerian - Tar - cut off / fate
Attar is an ancient Semitic deity whose role, name, and even gender varied by culture. Wiki

Ishtar is a Semitic name of uncertain etymology, possibly derived from a Semitic term meaning "to irrigate".[4] George A. Barton, an early scholar on the subject, suggests that the name stems from "irrigating ditch" and "that which is irrigated by water alone",[5] therefore meaning "she who waters", or "is watered" or "the self-waterer".[5]

Slang definitions & phrases for tar Expand
tar
noun

A sailor

[1676+; fr the tarpaulin garments they made and wore]

Numenor...Sea Kings / sailors

Vedic - Tar - denotes agency in ongoing time.
denotes habitual, professional or expert agency.
https://books.google.com/...t%20word&f=false


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 8 2017, 9:19pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 9 2017, 12:39pm

Post #10 of 87 (3738 views)
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in response to Tolkien Gateway [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
As a literary device, Ælfwine/Eriol actually serves an in-universe explanation about the origin of the legendarium. On the other hand, The Lord of the Rings suggests that Bilbo Baggins is the originator of the narratives, through his Red Book and his Translations from the Elvish which he compiled in Rivendell (which supposedly included Elvish lore including the Ainulindale and the Quenta Silmarillion).


In my opinion that's a pretty big "on the other hand" though: the later transmission scenario as published by the author versus a very arguably older abandoned idea.


Quote
Still, in some of the later writings of Tolkien written after The Lord of the Rings, Ælfwine is still referred and it is hinted that he didn't fully abandon the idea of Ælfwine's translations, since the two frameworks (Red Book and Ælfwine) are not mutually exclusive.


The chronology is not so general as this however: Elfwine was arguably abandoned before the second edition of The Lord of the Rings was published (or if you like, at least vanishes from texts written after the late 1950s "phase" anyway) when the new scenario of transmission of the Silmarillion was imagined and added in publication.

I'm not aware of where "it is hinted" at that Elfwine wasn't "fully" abandoned, unless the writer of this article simply means that he appears in post-Lord of the rings texts... again, he does, but the new scenario really began to rise with The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and the second edition revised Lord of the Rings.

Admittedly in the later scenario there is no "answer" with respect to how Bilbo's text made it from Westron to Old or Modern English, possibly (in part) because "the translator" has decided to use Old English to represent the language of the Rohirrim now, which might muddle up things there.


anuther langwich comment

As already noted by Squire, this type of investigation concerning the Primary World Language meanings of words, names, elements, actually annoyed Tolkien (he responded with the case of "Sauron" as an example).

Admittedly even Tolkien's own letter forgets some of the connections beyond the Old English name that inspired Earendil, but as the matter can get complicated...

... I'll just add that Carl Hostetter used to publish an article in Vinyar Tengwar about the (at least originally intended) Primary World language connections through Indo-European roots and languages and so on (keeping in mind that over the years Tolkien notably expanded the time table between the First Age and real world history).

I'll also add that languages used in the conceit of translation (Old English, Old Norse, Modern English) should not really apply here, as this is very different from any supposed connection between an invented Elvish root, element, word, name, and something in the Primary World...

... and we need to keep in mind (not that you aren't) that there's an in world history of the languages down through the imagined timeline, limiting Tolkien from rather "willy-nilly" invention, so to speak (see below).

For example Tolkien took wholesale the name Moria from the Primary World but the meaning in the real world text had no meaning for him: he liked the sound sequence and found a way to fit it into the already existing (though admittedly changing) linguistic scenario.

Carl Hostetter once posted:


Quote
'I would hasten to point out that there is a very real connection between Tolkien's Eldarin tongues and the Indo-European languages. For instance, the root terH- "pass through, surpass, overcome" that Neil cites from Watkins is clearly related to the Eldarin base TER- 'pierce'. However, I can back such assertions up with phonological argument, with the preponderance of other Eldarin bases that also correspond to IE roots, and with several statements by Tolkien (most notably section 10 of The Lhammas) that show that he intended a relationship between Eldarin and Indo-European. (For the argument, evidence, and ongoing examination of this issue, see my and Pat Wynne's column "Words and Devices" in Vinyar Tengwar.) But Tolkien forcefully protests, esp. in Letters, that he did not  just snatch words wholesale and willy-nilly from various languages and plop them into his invented tongues. By Tolkien's own statements (...)'


Carl Hostetter, posted on Tolklang


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 9 2017, 12:53pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 9 2017, 1:03pm

Post #11 of 87 (3729 views)
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'nuther example [In reply to] Can't Post

It was relatively somewhat late in the scenario that JRRT decided to drop the word Gnomes for the Noldor 'the Wise', but Nóm survives in the 1977 Silmarillion at least.

The editors of VT point out that Nóm must be related to the Elvish base NGOL- 'wise, wisdom' [among others], and 'Tolkien obviously devised these forms to imply a genetic connection with Indo-European gno- 'to know'

Sorry to ramble, just liked that example better Smile


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 9 2017, 4:23pm

Post #12 of 87 (3704 views)
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No arguement regarding what Tolkien said about his invented languages, however, [In reply to] Can't Post

nobody operates in a vacuum unaffected by their previous history. Yes, he derived new words and some similar words with different meanings for his languages, but he did so in the context of his learning and familiarity with other languages as inspiration and sometimes the actual borrowing of the same words, names etc.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 9 2017, 8:08pm

Post #13 of 87 (3692 views)
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Tolkien makes an interesting comment about Dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

"still living" in the southern Blue Mountains and that Cirdan may still be at the havens awaiting the last of the elvenkind. So, anyone in the Wexford area of Ireland or the Pembrokeshire coast -if you see a tall, very old, white haired bearded fellow by a marina, it just may be Cirdan trying to blend in. And if you see some very fair, tall, attractive people showing up for a "cruise" to Cape Clear Island or Hugh Town it just may be a straight road trip!
Also, if you are in Cornwall, near the "Blue Hills Tin Mine" or other mines and you see short, bearded men, they may be dwarves who have blended in to the Cornish.

https://www.google.com/...2!1i849!2i757!4f13.1

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/...s1600/screenshot.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/...avel-irish-roots.jpg Dunbrody Famine Ship, County Wexford...that was just a cover story.

http://www.nwci.ie/...16/1452126636_mw.jpg Ah ha, Cirdan, we have spotted you! (Wexford) Independent party Mick Wallace....once again, a cover identity.
https://www.irishtimes.com/...ox_620_330/image.jpg

Or this guy http://c8.alamy.com/...uy-cotten-DD4K1A.jpg Fisherman, sure!

Cardiff man with dwarven ancestry clearly - http://i1.walesonline.co.uk/...ATES/s810/elyJPG.jpg


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 9 2017, 8:22pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 1:06am

Post #14 of 87 (3653 views)
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It appears that Bilbo is the author of Appendix A...the footnotes indicate as such [In reply to] Can't Post

with JRRT commenting on Bilbo's information.

King Elessar establishes a home in the North and is visited by Peregrine, Meriadoc, and Sam whose daughter is a lady in waiting for Queen Evenstar.

Where was Tom Bombadil during all of this conflict in the North? Dunedain from Cardolan took refuge in his forest. We do not know with certainty where he was at this time but if in the same forest and his house exposed beneath the Downs it seems odd that nothing is mentioned of him. Then again, maybe the reason that the Dunedain could take refuge in the forest is due to Tom....just speculation of course.


squire
Half-elven


Sep 10 2017, 1:29am

Post #15 of 87 (3663 views)
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When beginning the Appendices, go back to the Prologue's "Note on the Shire Records". [In reply to] Can't Post

That's where Tolkien presents his very ornate construction of the "sources" for The Lord of the Rings, including its appendices (which a reader of the Prologue could have had no intimation of, since the first volume of LotR came out a year or so before the last). This part of the Prologue really only makes sense when, finally, the reader encounters the sizable amount of text that follows "Well, I'm back" in the final volume.

We're told that Bilbo's contribution is almost nil. His interest was the ancient Elvish legends of the First Age; Tolkien lays down here, in the three books called "Translations from the Elvish", a new 'source' for The Silmarillion, which at the time of LotR's publication he had high hopes of publishing soon thereafter. Bilbo, it's said in the Prologue, started some notes on LotR's story, but as hinted in the actual narrative, when he passed the project on to Frodo he'd been too strongly drawn to his poetry and had written down very little of the recent epic events. Frodo is thus the main author of the LotR -- or at least of the Red Book's main narrative on which the translator/discoverer (i.e., Tolkien) based his English-language romance.

The appendices are a different matter. The Prologue makes it clear that most of the material was compiled by the hobbits, but not written by them. The narratives and annals are excerpted (by the editor, JRRT) from accounts of Numenor, Gondor, Rohan, the Dwarves, etc., including the languages, alphabets, calendars, and so much more, that the hobbits (starting with Merry and Pippin) had collected in the course of many visits to the other capitals of culture in the new Fourth Age: Rohan, Gondor, Rivendell, and possibly others.

Others... I have always been fascinated by the idea that Pelargir must have had a tremendously valuable archive; it was a Numenorean colony in the Second Age, and was not destroyed when Numenor was. Compared to it, Minas Tirith, not to mention lost Osgiliath, were young cities with copies only of much of Men's ancient history and records of Elven affairs.



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Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 10 2017, 1:33pm

Post #16 of 87 (3596 views)
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Nice summation [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll add (only to go hand in hand with my previous post) that the Note on the Shire Records comes later with the revised second edition, where JRRT not only revises the start to Appendix A, but adds (in Appendix A) another reference to Bilbo's connection with the matter of the Elder Days.

And while I myself love the idea of the Elfwine scenario, another late reason why I think it "must" be rejected is Tolkien's rejection of Quenta Silmarillion as being directly transmitted from Elves of Tol Eressea... rather QS becomes a mostly mannish affair, which fits with the "Bilbo transmission".

It's true that Tolkien (in my opinion) could have retained something of a secondary Elfwine transmission, but not for QS in my opinion... perhaps for linguistic texts or more pure Elvish records (the Awakening of the Quendi)... but these could also be found in Rivendell in any case.

Elfwine's scenario always helped with how Tolkien-as-translaror did so well with Westron and the Elvish scripts, but if we simply borrow "genetic memory" from The Lost Road (add Tolkien's real dreams of the Great Wave) for example, we could possibly employ that as helping translate the found trove of ancient writings.

Or something Smile


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 10 2017, 1:41pm

Post #17 of 87 (3590 views)
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translaror [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Tolkien-as-translaror


A "translaror" is something slightly different from a translator, although admittedly the difference in spelling suggests a typo.

What's the difference? I do not gno.

Wink


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 1:58pm

Post #18 of 87 (3584 views)
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I believe it involves hormones and surgery! [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh


squire
Half-elven


Sep 10 2017, 2:30pm

Post #19 of 87 (3587 views)
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Ah! So interesting about the change to the 2nd Edition Prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

I acquired a 1st Edition "Fellowship" (only) a few years ago, and have not spent too much time combing it for interesting differences. So I never saw what you've just pointed out: that "A Note on the Shire Records", which I was decoding just now in my previous post, was only added to the Prologue after all three volumes, including the Appendices at the end of the book, had been published and read by Tolkien's audience. That makes more sense than the scenario I had presumed, where (as I noted) the readership of a just-published "Fellowship" could have had no idea what the heck the author/translaror was talking about!

I don't have a first edition "Return of the King", so I can only acknowledge with interest your note about the changes he made to the opening, and the contents of, Appendix A.

As far as the transmission of the Silmarillion goes, within the context of the legendarium, I know that is a very complex matter indeed, which I've never really spent too much time worrying about (unlike several very dedicated Tolkien scholars). The so-called "Translations from the Elvish" in Bilbo's hand is just one piece of the difficult puzzle Tolkien set himself after inadvertently inventing his entirely new Second and Third Ages several decades after writing his legends of the (now called) Elder Days or First Age. I believe another piece is Tolkien's decision at some point to regard his Silmarillion corpus as Mannish transcriptions made in Numenor and/or Gondor, rather than by Elfwine under direct Elvish instruction as originally conceived. Bilbo then, by the time LotR was being wrapped up, would be competing with the Gondorian records if he was actually learning the tales directly from Elrond's folk in Rivendell - unless, of course, even the Elves of Rivendell were influenced (as a HalfElven cultural center) by the more recent Mannish manuscripts!

We see something of this game within the Appendices, as laid out in the "Note on Shire Records", when the editor informs us that Gondor possessed the most authentic copy of the Red Book, more complete than anything that survived via the hobbits' libraries in the Fourth Age Shire. That copy included Bilbo's Silmarillion ("Translations from the Elvish") but it would presumably have been transmitted or edited by the Gondorian scribes and scholars, so that the final text could be reasonably read as both containing Elvish knowledge via Elrond, and Mannish knowledge via Elendil!

Somewhere in there, in other words, is Tolkien working out how to publish The Silmarillion in a form and format that would be (retroactively) consistent with the much later construction of The Lord of the Rings, not to mention the much more LotR-like rewritings of the Great Tales (Hurin, Turin, Tuor, etc.) that we now know Tolkien was trying to write in the 1950s (and which are now available in Unfinished Tales, HoME, and Children of Hurin).

But those texts are really just addenda to the main problem. Christopher Tolkien attempted and then, I believe, decided not to solve the puzzle that his father never completed, so the Sil as published in 1977 has only "Of the Rings of Power" as a link, and no "frame narrative" at all, whether via Elfwine, Bilbo and/or other hobbits, or the Men of Numenor.



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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 3:21pm

Post #20 of 87 (3575 views)
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There is certainly a lot of material to explore, maybe not as films, but as [In reply to] Can't Post

illustrated histories or inclusion in games etc. of the Dunedain history in the North and in Gondor. The appendix A has a lot of material that is not necessarily included in the Silmarillion or other texts that would cause copyright violations etc.

Could films be made about selective portions of history with significant dollops of invented dialogue and characters...yes....would they be successful? I don't see them as films for theatrical release...but maybe more as television serialization ala GOT.

Could some of the significant eras be successful stand alone films....possibly but risky.


noWizardme
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 3:26pm

Post #21 of 87 (3587 views)
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So, by co-incidence, neither JRR or BB could finish their books [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We're told that Bilbo's contribution is almost nil. His interest was the ancient Elvish legends of the First Age; Tolkien lays down here, in the three books called "Translations from the Elvish", a new 'source' for The Silmarillion, which at the time of LotR's publication he had high hopes of publishing soon thereafter. Bilbo, it's said in the Prologue, started some notes on LotR's story, but as hinted in the actual narrative, when he passed the project on to Frodo he'd been too strongly drawn to his poetry and had written down very little of the recent epic events. Frodo is thus the main author of the LotR -- or at least of the Red Book's main narrative on which the translator/discoverer (i.e., Tolkien) based his English-language romance.


Bilbo being unable to finish his book is something of a running gag (or perhaps more). I suppose it dates from before JRRT realised that he too would leave unfinished work for his literary heir?

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 10 2017, 6:56pm

Post #22 of 87 (3559 views)
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You might be right but when he wrote the LOTR he still had hopes of finishing [In reply to] Can't Post

the Silmarillion.

Little tidbits...the corsairs of Umbar were renegade Gondorians of the kin-strife years.
A great column with a large crystal ball was once mounted on a highland in Umbar until thrown down by Sauron.
The northmen....later Rohirrim...were sometime untrustworthy allies.
The in-fighting would make for some terrific Shakespearian plays or inspired movies.
Some of the names remind me of Vedic names - Eldacar was born as Vinitharya........Northmen King Vidugavia.
Others have a Turkic/Iranian sound - Castamir.
"Soghdian mir = sun"
"Tharya is Name of a pious woman" in Arabic and "teary eyed" in Hindi. It is also the name of a dance in Hindi culture,


I have to assume Tolkien had some familiarity, maybe not extensive but at least knowledge of, with the Epic of Gilgamesh or The Bhagavad Gita.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 10 2017, 7:00pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Sep 10 2017, 9:35pm

Post #23 of 87 (3548 views)
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Mannish myth in Rivendell... maybe? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
(...) I don't have a first edition "Return of the King", so I can only acknowledge with interest your note about the changes he made to the opening, and the contents of, Appendix A.


Just a little sample here (Appendix A), but also between the first and second editions, from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil it seems we can have lore reaching Rivendell from the South, and we have a reference to the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim, emphasis on Numenorean.


Anyway, from the First Edition, Appendix A:

"Thus the Red Book contained many annals, genealogies, and traditions of the realms of the South and the North, derived through Bilbo from the books of lore in Rivendell; or through Frodo and Peregrin from the King himself, and from the records of Gondor that he opened to them: such as The Book of the Kings, The Book of the Stewards, and the Akallabeth (that is, The Downfall of Numenor). From Gimli..."

So it's not until the revised edition that Tolkien adds (to Appendix A, in addition to adding the Note on the Shire Records as well of course): "The ancient legends of the First Age, in which Bilbo's chief interest lay, are very briefly referred to, since they concern the ancestry of Elrond and the Numenorean kings and chieftains."


Quote
(...) I believe another piece is Tolkien's decision at some point to regard his Silmarillion corpus as Mannish transcriptions made in Numenor and/or Gondor, rather than by Elfwine under direct Elvish instruction as originally conceived. Bilbo then, by the time LotR was being wrapped up, would be competing with the Gondorian records if he was actually learning the tales directly from Elrond's folk in Rivendell - unless, of course, even the Elves of Rivendell were influenced (as a HalfElven cultural center) by the more recent Mannish manuscripts!

We see something of this game within the Appendices, as laid out in the "Note on Shire Records", when the editor informs us that Gondor possessed the most authentic copy of the Red Book, more complete than anything that survived via the hobbits' libraries in the Fourth Age Shire. That copy included Bilbo's Silmarillion ("Translations from the Elvish") but it would presumably have been transmitted or edited by the Gondorian scribes and scholars, so that the final text could be reasonably read as both containing Elvish knowledge via Elrond, and Mannish knowledge via Elendil!


Yes, and I think we could have mannish accounts in Rivendell from Arnor through Numenor, and that these, like museum jools of antiquity, would yet be copied faithfully by Bilbo, despite the "greater truth" that the Western Elves could possibly provide.

[the following was simply lifted from me trying to persuade William Cloud Hicklin that the "Bilbo transmission" and the "Numenorean transmission" were ultimately one and the same]

Translating ancient materials is one thing, "correcting" them another, the latter being not only unnecessary, but given the arguably "gravity" of the ancientry (and artistry) Bilbo is dealing with, he might be expected not to alter things.

If someone handed me an ancient Greek document to translate, for example, and I knew (or was told) that five things in it were factually inaccurate, would I alter these references? That's very arguably not my job, and likewise not Bilbo's. And it's not like Bilbo need leave out evidences of the Elvish perspective if the fuller legendarium includes (as I think it would) accurately translated texts that are more Elvish in nature -- more accurately describing the world from a Western Elvish perspective...

... or, a different Elven notion even showing up in the Mannish The Drowning of Anadune for example, in which the Western Elves teach the Numenoreans that the world is round before the fall.

[back to responding to Squire]

In short (and not that you said otherwise) I think Bilbo can encounter the mannish element in both Imladris and Gondor, and that certain "more Elvish" accounts like The Awakening of the Quendi (an Elvish "fairytale" mixed with counting lore) likely hails from Rivendell, for instance...

... maybe memorized by Glorfindel or Gildor or someone.

Hmm is "translaror" now something? Wink

Think Dean Sanderson from The Grinder if you've ever seen this (sadly cancelled as of now) sitcom.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 10 2017, 9:48pm)


squire
Half-elven


Sep 11 2017, 3:32am

Post #24 of 87 (3513 views)
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'Leaf by Niggle' suggests it's not a coincidence [In reply to] Can't Post

That was written in the 1940s during his struggle to direct and control The Lord of the Rings, which had spiraled from a 'Hobbit' sequel into ... what?

I remember reading History of Middle-earth and seeing his continually revised outlines of what was left to write. Again and again he'd project just a few more chapters, leading to a big battle and the Ring's destruction, and then, presto, Book III happens and then Book IV happens, and .. will it ever end? Niggle, of course, has to die and go to heaven to see his completed work; and all he "leaves" behind on Earth is that one perfect painting of a single leaf.

Sure, it's a general allegory for any artist confronted by blocks, obstacles, and self-criticism, but we can still ask ourselves if LotR really represents just one perfect leaf (or, considering another recent thread, one magnum opus) produced by an author who had had ambitions to write a tree's worth of such stories??

And that doesn't even include his feelings about The Silmarillion, which was effectively on hold pending his completion of The Hobbit's sequel, and which he desperately wanted to finish so it could be published simultaneously with LotR. He nearly blew up his relationship with his long-suffering publisher, who continually and probably correctly judged the Sil to be neither finished nor marketable, and in the end he had to crawl back to them and beg them to just put LotR into print.

I have long thought that Bilbo's dilatory treatment of what became "Frodo's book" was Tolkien writing himself into his own book just as he had done when he first wrote The Hobbit itself. In such a reading, "Bilbo" and "Frodo" are two different aspects of Tolkien's feelings about writing stories.



squire online:
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noWizardme
Valinor


Sep 11 2017, 11:35am

Post #25 of 87 (3486 views)
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Yes, that makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

I was imagining JRR's problems with finishing the Silmarillion as being the real-life counterpart to Bilbo's problems with finishing his book. That may be applicable now, but, as people had been saying, we think JRR probably didn't yet anticipate that finishing the Silmarillion would elude him. So any parallel must have been un-intentional on JRR's part (I used the word 'co-incidence', which I now see isn't quite right).

But I agree - it works better to see Bilbo's writerly problems as being a sort of commentary upon JRRs issues while LOTR was in progress. Far from getting peace and quiet to finish his book, Bilbo finds himself in the midst of a great supply of new and exciting material, both for his First-age translations and his third-age chronicle. There's a parallel there with JRR's experience, perhaps - in the process of writing LOTR he 'discovered' a lot of new things about Middle-earth, which the tidy-minded, editorial side of his personality would then want to tie in satisfactorily to his existing conception.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 11 2017, 2:29pm

Post #26 of 87 (2824 views)
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Did Sauron practice biological warfare? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Great Plagues that ravaged both Gondor and it enemies could either have natural origins or could be some result of Sauron. The cost to Gondor was of far more benefit since his losses could be more easily replaced.

An arguement against the idea is that the plagues were not regular occurrences. This suggests episodic natural events.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 11 2017, 2:30pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 11 2017, 2:52pm

Post #27 of 87 (2821 views)
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The Great Plague [In reply to] Can't Post

Honestly? I have always assumed that Sauron had a hand in the Great Plague of 1636-37 (Third Age). The Plague did hit Harad (and possibly parts of Rhûn) very hard, and that might argue against his involvement--especially since Umbar was not under Gondor's control at that time. It might very well have been a natural event. On the other hand, the effects of the Plague on the South and East might have been the result of unintended consequences.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 11 2017, 2:52pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 11 2017, 2:54pm

Post #28 of 87 (2810 views)
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Another way to look at it is a remnant evil of the original marring by Morgoth [In reply to] Can't Post

than entered into nature and turns up periodically. Orcs may not have been affected at all.

But, maybe Sauron had a hand - it is not answered directly but hinted at: "...Sauron could wait, and it may well be that the opening of Mordor was what he chiefly desired."

But, why not use them more often?

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Great_Plague


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 11 2017, 3:00pm)


enanito
Lorien

Sep 11 2017, 5:59pm

Post #29 of 87 (2792 views)
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Wow, that worked awesome... but I don't think I'll try it again [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But, why not use them more often?

That is the same thought I've had with these plagues - if they were of evil origin, why in the world wouldn't they be used time after time after time, until either fully eradicating them or at least more fully decimating them?

This isn't unique, it seems a fairly common literary occurrence where the Evil Guy does something once that works out well for him, but then for mysterious (or unexplained, or poorly justified) reasons somehow determines that he won't try that same tack again. If I'm the bad dude, I definitely kick people when they're down, and shoot them a couple of extra times to make sure they're really dead.

So perhaps it's best for Tolkien to leave it a bit vague as to what exactly is the cause of these plagues.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 11 2017, 6:07pm

Post #30 of 87 (2789 views)
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Real world example [In reply to] Can't Post

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/.../8/9/01-0536_article

Biological Warfare at the 1346 Siege of Caffa
On This Page

Origin of the 14th-Century Pandemic Historical Background to the Siege of Caffa Gabriele de’ Mussi The Narrative of Gabriele De’ Mussi

Mark Wheelis
Author affiliation: *University of California, Davis, California USA

"Known 14th-century sources are of little help; they refer repeatedly to an eastern origin..."

Sauron did not want everyone dead, he desired adoring slaves and tribute.

We know rats existed - Scouring of the Shire - "Then you'll learn a thing or two, you little rat-folk."


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 11 2017, 6:15pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 11 2017, 9:11pm

Post #31 of 87 (2762 views)
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Why not use that tactic more often? [In reply to] Can't Post

That made me think of the First Age, and the Battle of Sudden Flame, when Morgoth released fire onto the northern plains that only the mountains could withstand. However, he never used that tactic again, including in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, when Fingon's and Maedhros's forces were lured back onto those same plains.

To me it seems an author's decision that a tactic can have shock value once, but if repeated too often, it becomes a yawner. Pretty much like orc-attacks. Yes, they're awful, but also predictable, and in that sense, not upseting like a plague or burst of fire.

Plague appears to have been used before as a weapon: Hurin's daughter Lalaith is killed by a pestilence from Angband, but again, that only seems to happen once.

Individual dragons invading cities? Only twice: Nargothrond and Erebor.

Airborne assault by a fleet of dragons? Only once, in Morgoth's last stand, somehow beaten down by Earendil.

We could probably come up with more examples. Tolkien might have gotten tired of his Southrons and Easterlings attacking Gondor, so he came up with the Wainriders as a semi-new menace. They attacked only once, just as there was only one Kin-Strife. He seems to think there's dramatic impact in the "only once" effect vs. the "and then for the 42nd time, the Orcs attacked Gondor." I think that gives Gondor's decline a more linear feel as well as a more inexorable one, as one unique calamity after another beats the kingdom down.


noWizardme
Valinor


Sep 12 2017, 9:17am

Post #32 of 87 (2718 views)
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It probably makes no military sense [In reply to] Can't Post

When I think of real-life terror weapons that have been used seldom, the reasons are that they didn't work very well, or caused problems for the user as well as the enemy, or were deemed too risky (because they would invite retaliation). It's not clear to me which of those factors apply to Sauron (or Morgoth).

Tolkien offers a very 'zoomed-out' account of history here, and maybe it seems appropriate that war would progress technologically (though a lot of other aspects of life don't, or indeed go into decline). And of course - as already said - there's the story value of some new dastardly plan each time.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 12 2017, 1:12pm

Post #33 of 87 (2702 views)
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Compications [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When I think of real-life terror weapons that have been used seldom, the reasons are that they didn't work very well, or caused problems for the user as well as the enemy, or were deemed too risky (because they would invite retaliation). It's not clear to me which of those factors apply to Sauron (or Morgoth).


In the case of the Great Plague of TA 1636-37, it created problems for Sauron as well as his enemies by seriously affecting his own allies in Harad (and possibly the Easterlings as well).

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


squire
Half-elven


Sep 12 2017, 1:27pm

Post #34 of 87 (2708 views)
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zoomed-out history, and the value of story [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Tolkien's method here is to be deliberately evocative of Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire', with its vast sweep of moral decadence in the metropolis and barbarians constantly rattling at the gates, over a thousand year period. Incidents recur in Gibbon, as he was reporting the facts as he found them (dressed up to make a great story, to be sure); if a wave of horsemen appeared at the edge of empire more than once, then let us hear the tale again. Tolkien, of course, is not bound by inconvenient facts and can trim wherever needed in the interest of economy or invention.

Plagues play a role in Gibbon's story, I believe - or if they don't, we nevertheless cannot ignore the role the Black Death played in later medieval history. But plagues, as we and Tolkien agree, tend to devastate indiscriminately. In real life, therefore, they are hard to pin on the agency of some fiendish Eastern potentate intent on crippling Christendom. In Tolkien's story, of course, it's the nature of Fate to be manipulable by the Powers. And Sauron - well, as the phrase goes, who knows what he can do?

So every aspect of Gondor's decline, it is hinted in a more-than-Gibbonian way, is in fact part of a master plan or at least driven by a hostile master will.

In the end, this is Story in historical clothing, not History in Gibbon's classically-inspired narrative clothing.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
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Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 12 2017, 2:55pm

Post #35 of 87 (2702 views)
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By the time period of the LOTRs Gondor was basically on its knees [In reply to] Can't Post

and very reminiscent of Constantinople under seige. Slowly, the area under its control shrank and it was ready to fall with one great siege. Fortunately, Gondor still had friends to help turn the tide whereas Byzantium was more cut off and attempts to turn back the Turks were defeated and or too late.

https://www.quora.com/...-less-important-city

The Gates of Vienna may be more similar to Minas Tirith in that the Habsburg Dynasty still had enough strength and allies to turn the tide.

Appendix A really shows how far the mighty had fallen. To think that Sauron was actually captured and made a prisoner! How did that happen? I think it was possibly intentional...rot from inside....which is exactly what he accomplished....at the cost of his fair outer body.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 12 2017, 3:06pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 13 2017, 8:37pm

Post #36 of 87 (2666 views)
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Thorongil, Thorongil, where art though Thorongil? [In reply to] Can't Post

The appendix really explains the antipathy of Denethor toward this mystery man who showed up, gained favor and then disappeared.

He was seen as a tool of Gandalf even then to usurp his place.

Denethor never got on with Gandalf - I assume he was under more sway from Saruman.

Sindarin - Eagle of the Star
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thorongil

Thorondor, Eagle Lord...the Lord of the Eagles.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 13 2017, 8:45pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 13 2017, 8:56pm

Post #37 of 87 (2657 views)
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Thor - thunder [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Thor

In Native American mythology the great Thunderbird combines the two aspects.


enanito
Lorien

Sep 14 2017, 8:12pm

Post #38 of 87 (2608 views)
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Denethor the White [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, a bit of a play on words, with Saruman previously the White, Gandalf becoming the White, and "White" signifying pure intentions.

Being a long-time "Team Gandalf" member, by the time I bothered reading the Appendices I had already decided Denethor was a too-proud man given to evil tendencies. Not saying it was necessarily supported in-text, but those were my thoughts.

But I believe the Appendices actually show Denethor in a better light than I had cast him. The descriptions of him are quite favorable, akin to Thorongil in every way except a distrust of Gandalf. And that, although my earlier self would disagree, isn't necessarily a sin! Just because Denethor didn't get along with Mithrandir, doesn't mean he then must have gotten along with Saruman, or unknowingly been under his sway.

I think Denethor was just a proud Gondorean who wanted to chart his own course for the future of his own people, and didn't exactly want any outside influences. Of course a subtle person like Saruman could try and take advantage of that, but I don't read any evidence of success until after Denethor's wife had died and the Steward went down a road he had previously avoided.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 14 2017, 8:17pm

Post #39 of 87 (2605 views)
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Jealousy was a also a part of his make up. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 15 2017, 3:08am

Post #40 of 87 (2578 views)
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The story of Aragorn and Arwen [In reply to] Can't Post

Love at first sight.....

It does make you wonder why Arwen, after 2,700 years had not met a nice Elf lord. It seems elven romance temperature is set at -20 degrees. She must have been sought after by many a potential mate. Poor Elrond, his wife left- but time is soooo different for them.

Try to imagine having been alive the last 3000 years.....you would have witnessed the Pyramids being built, the Greek city states, the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire....the "Dark" Ages, the Renaissance etc etc.

Elrond, of course will lose his daughter for untold number years until the world is ended and then maybe some hope for reunion but that is not a given.

After a brief time with Aragorn, at least it feels that way for Arwen, he has the option of dying by his choice - which he does before he gets too old and feeble. She does the same thing, but chooses to die out in the open and away from Aragorn. They both choose places dear to them....but still odd they are not together. The thought of her mortal body lying open in the silent woods of Lorien is a bit disturbing.


noWizardme
Valinor


Sep 15 2017, 9:41am

Post #41 of 87 (2556 views)
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Denethor and Saruman do make quite a pair [In reply to] Can't Post

Both of them are very able people - and very aware of it. They lack the humility that Gandalf or Aragorn (or, especially Sam or Frodo) are able to muster.

In different ways, they are both done down by Pride - the inability to see that the future is 'meant' to include them surrendering their authority.

I think they are both very interesting characters - there's an element of tragedy in them both; being driven to destruction by a character flaw, rather than just being bad, end of story.

At an earlier time, some of us discussed a further pairing - that each of these characters has a counterpart. Gandalf is the obvious counterpart to Saruman. Theoden - who rises above personal tragedy instead of sinking into despair, and who does his duty rather than rejecting it - is Denethor's

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Sep 15 2017, 9:43am)


noWizardme
Valinor


Sep 15 2017, 11:12am

Post #42 of 87 (2556 views)
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a bit disturbing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
After a brief time with Aragorn, at least it feels that way for Arwen, he has the option of dying by his choice - which he does before he gets too old and feeble. She does the same thing, but chooses to die out in the open and away from Aragorn. They both choose places dear to them....but still odd they are not together. The thought of her mortal body lying open in the silent woods of Lorien is a bit disturbing.


I think the whole Tale is a bit disturbing - but mostly because of the shift in style. We're used to reading about Aragorn in the style of the LOTR text - detailed, and like a modern romance or novel with all that consideration of character and personality. Now we're presented with Aragorn and Arwen in a style more like the Silmarillion - they're a King and Queen from long ago. If this tale were fan fiction, I can imagine people complaining that the author had got Aragorn all wrong: he's stern and remote and uncaring, where's the compassion that we see in the LOTR main text character?

The reason (I think) is that, in keeping with it now being a history or traditional tale, the story is told true to emotion and a moral point, at the expense of rendering character or factual detail. The 'point' of it is that Arwen does in the end have to pay a price that is hard to bear - and no easier for knowing all along that love would one day need to confront necessity. The ending is deliberately bleak for that reason, I think; it doesn't have to be 'historically' likely that a much loved medieval queen-mother would be really allowed to wander off on her own, die in an unnaturally quiet wood, and be left to rot.

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


squire
Half-elven


Sep 15 2017, 12:08pm

Post #43 of 87 (2557 views)
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Queer and disturbing! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that the image is distasteful on a gut level, but as NoWiz has already noted, it seems to be about symbolism, not necessarily a documented reality.

On the other hand, I've noted before that this particular symbolism was, evidently, very very important to Tolkien for some reason.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 15 2017, 1:48pm

Post #44 of 87 (2536 views)
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I imagine more like a "Snow White" scene....she lies upon a fragrant [In reply to] Can't Post

patch of grass and flowers, gives up her life, and little forest creatures cover her remains with stones and branches.

Or, more realistically....she goes off with a small retinue that actually prepare a moss and flower death bed and then she is covered upon the hill.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 15 2017, 4:28pm

Post #45 of 87 (2516 views)
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I wonder if the tale of Snow White could have played some part in his thinking [In reply to] Can't Post

https://dettoldisney.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/sw9.jpg

http://sensesofcinema.com/.../Tree-of-Life-12.jpg

The book says she went alone....so I imagine while she dwelt over the winter she made her private preparations.....maybe an enclosed tomb.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 15 2017, 4:37pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 15 2017, 8:52pm

Post #46 of 87 (2488 views)
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Lewis and Tolkien both hated aspects of Disney art [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.atlasobscura.com/...arnia-hobbit-dwarves

"The Tolkien Companion notes that he found Snow White lovely, but otherwise wasn’t pleased with the dwarves. To both Tolkien and Lewis, it seemed, Disney’s dwarves were a gross simplification of a concept they held as precious. “I think it grated on them that he was commercializing something that they considered almost sacrosanct,” says Trish Lambert, a Tolkien scholar and author of the essay, Snow White and Bilbo Baggins: Divergences and Convergences Between Disney and Tolkien. “Here you have a brash, American entrepreneur who had the audacity to go in and make money off of fairy tales.”

"Years later, in a 1964 letter to a Miss J.L. Curry at Stanford University, likely spurred on by the controversy surrounding Disney’s treatment of Mary Poppins, Tolkien further laid bare his true feelings on Disney’s work. He described Disney’s talent as “hopelessly corrupted,” writing, “Though in most of the ‘pictures’ proceeding from his studios there are admirable or charming passages, the effect of all of them is to me disgusting. Some have given me nausea…” He goes on to call Disney a “cheat,” noting that while he too had a profit motive behind his work, he wouldn’t stoop to working with Disney."

However, he may indeed have been influenced by the ORIGINAL tale - https://books.google.com/...0tolkien&f=false


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 15 2017, 8:58pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Sep 15 2017, 11:07pm

Post #47 of 87 (2475 views)
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Is there fan fiction that uses Tolkien's Silmarillion style? [In reply to] Can't Post

Or is it all written in the more modern idiom of LOTR?

There are four lights.

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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 16 2017, 10:13pm

Post #48 of 87 (2399 views)
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The Rohirrim were a rough and ready bunch - was Helm guilty of murder? [In reply to] Can't Post

Helm Hammerhand (now we know where that name comes from) struck Freca, a man of mixed Dunlending and Rohirrim ancestry who came with men and a demand/proposal to have his son Wulf marry Helm's daughter. After some words, Helm speaks to him in private and then smites him....which kills Freca. I guess the King is the Law.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Helm


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 16 2017, 10:15pm)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 18 2017, 12:28am

Post #49 of 87 (2356 views)
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We learn that Theoden was 1/2 Gondorian......Thengel married Morwen [In reply to] Can't Post

"Morwen was a woman of Belfalas, of the Prince of Dol Amroth's kin, though her family later moved to the flowery vales of Lossarnach.

Morwen was dark-haired and considerably taller than most of the Rohirrim, owing to her High-Númenórean heritage. The descendants of Thengel, including their grandson Éomer, were said to have inherited many of her characteristics, including his size.[2][3]"

Therefore, Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn had high Numenorean blood lines and were somewhat related to Denethor. Denethor
In T.A. 2976 had married Finduilas, daughter of Prince Adrahil of Dol Amroth. We don't know exactly Morwen't relationship - cousin, niece, sister etc. but we can conclude that Boromir, Faramir and Theoden. Eomer and Eowyn were likely cousins of one degree or another.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Morwen_Steelsheen


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 18 2017, 12:31am)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 19 2017, 1:06am

Post #50 of 87 (2290 views)
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Dain as the slayer of Azog vs Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

JRR Tolkien mad a decision to have Dain Ironfoot as the one who gets vengeance on Azog. I wonder what led him that story line vs investing Thorin with the task of familial revenge,

We also learn more about the 7th ring of the Dwarves and how how immune the Dwarves were to its control other than inciting gold fever. It also seems to have the power to replicate or lead to more gold if gold is present. It took gold to produce more gold.
Was the film's "dragon gold mental effects" based on this ring?

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Seven_Rings


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 19 2017, 1:31am

Post #51 of 87 (2876 views)
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We also learn of the other Dwarf lines - that they exist - but are not really mentioned [In reply to] Can't Post

apart from Durin's line. These other kingdoms one must assume were based in the various mountain ranges....but they are not specified. They came together for the Battle of Azanulzibar.

"(Firebeards and Broadbeams from the Blue Mountains, and others from the far East of Middle-earth)"

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Battle_of_Azanulbizar

I wonder about the far east kingdoms and their location to the Easterlings etc.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 19 2017, 1:40am)


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 19 2017, 2:52am

Post #52 of 87 (2866 views)
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The Seven Houses [In reply to] Can't Post

"Longbeards, Firebeards, Broadbeams, Ironfists, Stonefoots, Blacklocks, and Stiffbeards."....

http://tolkiengateway.net/...attle_of_Azanulbizar


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 19 2017, 3:25am

Post #53 of 87 (2863 views)
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The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
"Longbeards, Firebeards, Broadbeams, Ironfists, Stonefoots, Blacklocks, and Stiffbeards."....


Yes, and presumably the Firebeards and Broadbeams made up the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost in the Ered Luin who migrated to Khazad-dûm after their cities were flooded at the end of the First Age. Appendix A tells us that others of those Houses remained primarily in the southern Blue Mountains where they still had working mines. Tolkien's early versions of his tales of the First Age placed the Longbeards in the Blue Mountains long before the rise and fall of Erebor, but he seems to have abandoned that idea in the end.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 19 2017, 6:39pm

Post #54 of 87 (2803 views)
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Some closing Appendix A tidbits [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter Jackson used more of the material in the Hobbit films than maybe many people realized...he just used the info differently - with different characters and times.

For example, Thrain is hunted by the emissaries of Sauron...wolves...orcs...evil birds. This was to recover his ring.
However, it makes sense for PJ to have the same scenario for Thorin. Sauron would not want an heir to Durin's line to live. Another potential foe in the future to get rid of now.

Gandalf and Thorin meet up in Bree...."A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-Earth." Wink, wink

A few sentences about the concurrent battles in the North during the War of the Ring as Sauron assaulted Erebor and Dale with the result of both King Dain and King Brand falling in battle.

We learn of Dis and other female dwarves....indicated to represent about 30% of the population - which has adverse effects on population growth and I assume jealousy. Another reason for dwarves to be grumpy.

Gimli becomes Lord of the Glittering Caves and worked in Gondor and Rohan, even Mithril gates for Minas Tirith. Break that Grond!

Legolas and other kin actually lived in Ithilien - which was Faramir's territory - and it became the fairest land.

After Elessar dies, Legolas departs over the Sea....possibly with Gimli.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 22 2017, 2:26am

Post #55 of 87 (2686 views)
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Appendix B - Tale of Years etc. [In reply to] Can't Post

If I recall correctly, are the Istari sent with instructions not to oppose Sauron with power due to the ongoing punishment of mankind via Numenor and the elves from the kinslaying? In effect, the Valar are saying, we will send some help but are leaving Middle Earth to its "fate"? I am trying to recall, without looking up, why they left Sauron to run free.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 22 2017, 2:43am

Post #56 of 87 (2681 views)
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The War of Wrath? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that the prohibition to take direct action had as much to do with the Change of the World and the Fall of Númenor as it had to do with the War of Wrath and the destruction of Beleriand. The Fall of Morgoth and the resulting cataclysm was brought about directly through the actions of the Valar. Eru was behind the Change of the World and the removal of Aman from Arda.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 22 2017, 3:56am

Post #57 of 87 (2671 views)
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I was thinking of the disobedience of both men and elves [In reply to] Can't Post

Elves for following Feanor and the Numenoreans for sailing West as leading the Valar to limit help and the power of the Istari.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 22 2017, 3:57am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 22 2017, 4:52am

Post #58 of 87 (2666 views)
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Not a punishment. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I was thinking of the disobedience of both men and elves

Elves for following Feanor and the Numenoreans for sailing West as leading the Valar to limit help and the power of the Istari.


I see. No, the limiting of the power of the Istari was not a punishment to Men nor to the Noldor. The Valar deemed the potential cost of opposing Sauron power against power as too high. The loss of Bereriand as a result of the Great Battle had been very painful to the Valar. Think of the myth of the Biblical Flood and God's promise to not repeat it (at least in the same manner).

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 22 2017, 1:53pm

Post #59 of 87 (2640 views)
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True, but Sauron was comparitively a pip squeak [In reply to] Can't Post

"When the Númenórean King Ar-Pharazôn attacked Valinor, the Valar relinquished their dominion over Arda and called upon Eru for help. Eru responded by creating an enormous rift between Númenor and the Blessed Realm,...."

Their relinquished dominion may also have been key. Though why Sauron was allowed to run free is another matter.

When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.

http://tolkiengateway.net/...hanging_of_the_World


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 22 2017, 1:54pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 22 2017, 3:27pm

Post #60 of 87 (2627 views)
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Subtopic: Aragorn and the Woodland Realm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.


It might have been that late. However, my own suspicion is that Aragorn first visited the Woodland Realm long before that, fairly soon after he first left Imladris in his twentieth year. (TA 2951)--possibly even before he first met and befriended Gandalf (in 2956). Even if Gandalf did make the introductions, this could have happened any time after that first meeting. Again, I expect that Aragorn's first visit to the Thranduil's Halls took place before the time of his journeys and errantries (2957-80).

I would guess, though, that the Elvenking would have been unaware of Aragorn while the Heir of Isildur was being fostered as Estel by Elrond. I'm not sure that Elrond would have shared that secret even with Gandalf; although the wizard might have known of the tradition of the first sons of the chieftains of the Dúnedain being fostered for a time in Rivendell.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 22 2017, 3:55pm

Post #61 of 87 (2622 views)
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I think he would have to be introduced by someone, either Elrond or Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think he would go wandering in Mirkwood and risk getting captured and thrown in a prison cell.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 22 2017, 4:21pm

Post #62 of 87 (2610 views)
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Maybe, maybe not. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't think he would go wandering in Mirkwood and risk getting captured and thrown in a prison cell.


I don't see the young Aragorn as refusing to give an account of himself, though he might have been using a 'traveling name' at the time. We know that he traveled under several names during his great journeys and errantries, notably as Thorongil[/i[ in Gondor.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 22 2017, 6:09pm

Post #63 of 87 (2603 views)
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Some more tidbits [In reply to] Can't Post

Initially, Shadowfax did not allow Gandalf to ride him and Gandalf had to chase after him for a day or two before Shadowfax allowed him to ride.

Both Erebor and Dale eventually came "under the crown and protection of the King of the West." I am a bit surprised that Erebor would become a vassal state of Gondor...though not surprised that Dale was incorporated.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 22 2017, 6:26pm

Post #64 of 87 (2597 views)
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Gandalf and Shadowfax; the North in the Fourth Age [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Initially, Shadowfax did not allow Gandalf to ride him and Gandalf had to chase after him for a day or two before Shadowfax allowed him to ride.


Yep!


In Reply To
Both Erebor and Dale eventually came "under the crown and protection of the King of the West." I am a bit surprised that Erebor would become a vassal state of Gondor...though not surprised that Dale was incorporated.


"Then Bard II, Brand's son, became King in Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dáin's son, became King under the Mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of King Elessar; and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship with Gondor; and they were under the crown and the protection of the King of the West."

I was vaguely aware of all this, though I had not given it much thought. I wonder if Esgaroth remained independent.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 22 2017, 6:34pm

Post #65 of 87 (2592 views)
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I would think Esgaroth was linked to Dale. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe not though....

"Esgaroth appears to be a city-state, always independent of Dale, and a republic with no king (the only real republic shown in Middle-earth). The people had always elected from among the old and wise the Master of Lake-town and did "not [endure] the rule of mere fighting men". Wiki

More like Singapore or Hong Kong...Monaco etc.

"The town was wrecked by the dragon, but afterwards it was rebuilt in a different location using some of the treasure that Smaug had stolen, though the town's Master ran off with some of the gold. Part of the town's population followed Bard to resettle the Kingdom of Dale."

Wiki


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 22 2017, 6:37pm)


InTheChair
Lorien

Sep 23 2017, 7:37pm

Post #66 of 87 (2475 views)
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Not sure. Elrond isn't depicted as the travelling type in LotRs or the Hobbit. [In reply to] Can't Post

When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.

Aragorn need not have been familiar with Thranduil at all, except to know his name and that he was king of the woodland elves, and known Legolas only after the Counsil of Elrond. Aragorns own words are only that he delivered Gollum to the woodland elves, for so we had agreed.

Doesn't say who we are, most likely he and Gandalf, which probably meant Gandalf set it up with the woodland elves, and Gollum could have been given to the border guards.

On the other hand it's entirely possible they were aquainted. Lots of appeal for fan-fic writers there.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 23 2017, 8:01pm

Post #67 of 87 (2471 views)
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One thing to keep in perspective is that due to their long lives [In reply to] Can't Post

if Elrond visited Thranduil 200 years ago is is like last year.
I am sure the elven lords are familiar with each other from past meetings even if they are in human terms long ago. They also seem to remember quite a bit of their lives despite their longevity.

Aragorn would have to have had some familiarity with the realm of Thranduil before delivering Gollum. Either when going off with Elrohir and Elladan who were active companions of the Rangers or with Gandalf who probably arranged things.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 24 2017, 12:42am

Post #68 of 87 (2456 views)
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Did Aragorn already know Thranduil and/or Legolas? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When did Aragorn first become familiar with Thranduil (and Legolas)? Aragorn brings Gollum to Thranduil for safe keeping. I assume Gandalf introduced them at some time during their 8 year hunt.

Aragorn need not have been familiar with Thranduil at all, except to know his name and that he was king of the woodland elves, and known Legolas only after the Counsil of Elrond. Aragorns own words are only that he delivered Gollum to the woodland elves, for so we had agreed.

Doesn't say who we are, most likely he and Gandalf, which probably meant Gandalf set it up with the woodland elves, and Gollum could have been given to the border guards.

On the other hand it's entirely possible they were aquainted. Lots of appeal for fan-fic writers there.


I think you are right in stating that there is no solid evidence that Aragorn was already acquainted with Legolas before the Council of Elrond, or with Thranduil at all. It does seem more likely than not, though, that Aragorn's travels might have taken him to the Elvenking's court, especially since we do know that he found and captured Gollum and brought him to the Woodland Realm.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 24 2017, 2:50pm

Post #69 of 87 (2373 views)
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I don't have any comments on Appendix C or D [In reply to] Can't Post

If anyone would like to discuss aspects of the family tree or calendar systems please feel free to do so.


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 24 2017, 4:40pm

Post #70 of 87 (2362 views)
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Or E....F [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 24 2017, 7:49pm

Post #71 of 87 (2338 views)
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Mid-year's Day on the Shire Calendar [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If anyone would like to discuss aspects of the family tree or calendar systems please feel free to do so.


From Tolkien's description, Mid-year's Day in the Shire Reckoning should roughly translate to June 21 on our Gregorian calendar.


Quote
It appears...that Mid-year's Day was intended to correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice.


However, by my reckoning that would place our own New Year's Day on the Shire date of January 11, while Tolkien estimated: "our New Year's Day corresponded more or less to the Shire January 9." My figures do better support Tolkien's assertion that "the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days", so perhaps his math was just a little bit off.

* * * * * *

The Shire Reckoning brings up an issue concerning Thorin's father Thráin II. Gandalf said to Thorin: "And Thrain your father went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday, and has never been seen by you since". The problem with that is that under the Shire Reckoning the date of April 21 always falls on a Friday (and the Revised Reckoning goes back well before Thráin's disappearance). So either Gandalf misspoke or he was maybe referring to the Reckoning of Durin's Folk which might have placed Thráin's departure on a Thursday. This is a mystery that probably has no resolution.

* * * * * *

We know from Appendix B that the Shire-folk counted September 29, T.A. 2021 (S.R. 1421) as the End of the Third Age. The Shire Reckoning continued its counting of the years unchanged. Under King Elessar's New Reckoning the beginning of the year fell on March 25, commemorating the fall of Sauron. The Fourth Age Year 1 began on the date of March 25, 2021, old style. In the reckoning of the Shire, the Fourth Age was considered to have begun on 2 Yule 1422.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


sador
Half-elven


Sep 25 2017, 4:23am

Post #72 of 87 (2294 views)
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According to The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond remembered "the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of the bright River Running".

This seems to imply he did travel East in Thror's time, and also later.


sador
Half-elven


Sep 25 2017, 4:32am

Post #73 of 87 (2291 views)
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The Gates of Vienna [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that is an interesting comparison - Theoden as Jan (or John) Sobieski!

I did read Henryk Sinkiewicz's trilogy at around the same time I first read Tolkien (which was indeed long ago), but the Polish nobility Sinkiewicz described do seem pretty similar to the Rohirrim - in fact, more than the historical Saxons.

Thank you!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 25 2017, 5:44am

Post #74 of 87 (2282 views)
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Visiting the In-laws? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Elrond remembered "the ruin of the town of Dale and its merry bells, and the burned banks of the bright River Running".

This seems to imply he did travel East in Thror's time, and also later.


Perhaps Elrond made a side-trip on his way to visit with Celeborn and Galadriel (accompanying his daughter Arwen?). He might have even been on Council business.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Eruonen
Valinor


Sep 27 2017, 3:19pm

Post #75 of 87 (2183 views)
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Comment on E and F - re Westron [In reply to] Can't Post

Oddly enough, we do not really have any examples of Westron, the common language of Middle Earth (apart maybe from some place names). It is easy to think of it as English (which Tolkien states it has been completely translated into....). The emphasis on languages concerns Elven - Quenya, Sindarin and some Dwarvish runes and a little bit of Black Speech.

I assume Tolkien did not want to muddy the waters by detailing a "mannish" language that did not really have any "real" roots in this world (probably something in his mind like archaic Germanic / Gothic etc.)


Murlo
Rivendell


Sep 30 2017, 8:11pm

Post #76 of 87 (2490 views)
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Comparison of Calendars in Appendix D [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If anyone would like to discuss aspects of the ... calendar systems please feel free to do so.


I'm new to these forums, but I'd like to contribute some of my insights since I've become familiar with Appendix D over the past couple of years :)

Tolkien only directly compared the Shire Calendar with "real-world" years once, in the following passage from Appendix D:


Quote
It appears, however, that Mid-year’s Day was intended to correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice. In that case the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days, and our New Year’s Day corresponded more or less to the Shire January 9.


All other calendars in Appendix D are only compared with the Shire Calendar:


  • Rivendell New Year’s Day "corresponded more or less with Shire April 6".

  • "March 25" of the Shire Calendar, "the date of the downfall of Barad-dûr" in the Third Age 3019, "was, however, March 25 in both Kings' and Stewards' Reckoning." This became New Year's Day in the New Reckoning calendar of King Elessar's Reunited Kingdom.

  • The New Reckoning's Yavannië 30 "corresponded with former September 22", Frodo's birthday. Since Shire "March 25" was equivalent with "March 25 in both Kings' and Stewards' Reckoning" at that time, then "former September 22" must be a reference to the Shire Calendar; because if the New Reckoning New Year's Day was equivalent with Stewards' Reckoning "March 25" as well, then the New Reckoning Yavannië 30 and Shire "September 22" would be equivalent with Stewards' Reckoning "September 23".




Murlo
Rivendell


Sep 30 2017, 8:48pm

Post #77 of 87 (2485 views)
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Shire vs. Gregorian calendar and Mid-year's Day vs. the Summer Solstice [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
so perhaps his math was just a little bit off


While it's true that June 21st is the most common date of the summer solstice in modern times, I think Tolkien may have been referencing the solstice of the ancient past, and around 6000 years ago (the "gap" he gave in his letter #211 between modern times and the story) the summer solstice would have commonly fallen on a June 23rd in the (proleptic) Gregorian calendar. Maybe even up until ancient Roman times, at least according to this graph: http://www.thetropicalevents.com/...s/eSS_Gregorian1.png

So that could explain why he stated "our New Year's Day corresponded more or less to the Shire January 9", since that would put the Shire Mid-year's Day "more or less" on Gregorian June 23rd, and Shire New Year's Day "more or less" on Gregorian December 23rd.

I also think Tolkien was vague with these comparisons because he had in mind the differences in the leap-year rules between the Shire and our Gregorian calendars.

So maybe he said "more or less to the Shire January 9" because he knew every 400 years that date would shift by 1 day; and if the Shire Calendar had "millennial adjustments" like the Gondor calendars, then it would shift back 2 days the other way every 1000 years.

This also explains the other vague statement that "the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days", because depending on where the Shire Calendar starts in the Gregorian calendar (December 21, 22, or 23), and considering that all Shire months have 30 days, whereas the Gregorian calendar months have anywhere from 28 - 31 days, a Shire month could be in advance of the corresponding Gregorian month by anywhere from 7 - 12 days.

So I'm inclined to give Tolkien more credit than he even gave to himself when he said "I am not skilled in these matters, and may have made many errors" in Appendix D ;)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 30 2017, 8:57pm

Post #78 of 87 (2480 views)
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The Shire's Mid-year's Day and the Gregorian calendar [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien only directly compared the Shire Calendar with "real-world" years once, in the following passage from Appendix D:

Quote
It appears, however, that Mid-year’s Day was intended to correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice. In that case the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days, and our New Year’s Day corresponded more or less to the Shire January 9.



Yes, and we seem to have a slight contradiction here. If our New Year's Day roughly corresponds with the Shire-date of January 9 then the Mid-year's Day of the Shire Reckoning would similarly correspond with our June 23. That does not seem to "correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice."

My personal observation is that if we assume that the Shire's Mid-year's Day can be equated to our June 21 then that better fits Tolkien's assertion that "the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days," That would also place our own New Year's Day on the Shire-date of January 11 rather than January 9.

It seems as though either: 1) Tolkien's statement concerning the summer solstice was not literally accurate; or 2) Tolkien's math was off. Thoughts?

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 30 2017, 9:00pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 30 2017, 9:06pm

Post #79 of 87 (2469 views)
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Cross-post! [In reply to] Can't Post

I see I was responding to your last post at the same time you were replying to my previous post. Cool

I think I would want some confirmation about the summer solstice dates of 6000 years ago before I could fully embrace your premise, but well done just the same. However, even if we accept that the summer solstice of 6000 years ago would have fallen on our June 23, that would still move the Shire dates away from the estimate of being on average ten days in advance of our own.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 30 2017, 9:10pm)


Murlo
Rivendell


Sep 30 2017, 9:21pm

Post #80 of 87 (2458 views)
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Yep, cross-post :) [In reply to] Can't Post


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I see I was responding to your last post at the same time you were replying to my previous post. Cool


I figured Wink


In Reply To
I think I would want some confirmation about the summer solstice dates of 6000 years ago before I could fully embrace your premise, but well done just the same.


Thanks! I agree another source for the solstices would be helpful. This blog post by Aaron Chong has some dates for the solstice around 6000 years ago that seem to agree with June 23, but another source would also be welcome.


Murlo
Rivendell


Sep 30 2017, 9:23pm

Post #81 of 87 (2456 views)
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The 3 Calendars of Gondor [In reply to] Can't Post

The calendar of Gondor went through 3 variations throughout its history:

  1. Kings' Reckoning: The Kings' Reckoning was established in Númenor and was "used in Númenor, and in Arnor and Gondor until the end of the kings". That would make this calendar the one that was in use for the longest period of time in Middle-earth; except for maybe the Calendar of Imladris, but Tolkien never stated when that calendar was established (although I bet it was during the First Age). The Kings' Reckoning was in use probably throughout the entire history of Númenor, for over 3000 years during the Second Age, and up to the Third Age (T.A.) 2059 in Gondor.

  2. Stewards' Reckoning: The Stewards' Reckoning was established in the time of Mardil, the first Ruling Steward of Gondor, and replaced the Kings' Reckoning in T.A. 2060. It was only a minor modification of the Kings' Reckoning that added a "Spring-day" (Tuilérë) and an "Autumn-day" (Yáviérë) and shortened the two 31-day months in summer to 30 days each. Could these new Tuilérë and Yáviérë days have been in honor (or a reflection) of the holidays of Númenor for Erukyermë and Eruhantalë?

  3. New Reckoning: As mentioned in my previous post, The New Reckoning was introduced by King Elessar (a.k.a Aragorn) and started its reckoning from the day the One Ring was destroyed, T.A. 3019 'March' (Súlimë) 25, which became its New Year's Day (Yestarë). So the start of each month was shifted back by about a week to align the calendar with this new Yestarë. It also removed the Stewards' "Spring-day" and "Autumn-day" and moved the Mid-year's Day (Loëndë) to autumn, along with 2 Middle-days, which immediately followed its month of Yavannië.




Quote
But in honour of Frodo Yavannië 30, which corresponded with former September 22, his birthday, was made a festival, and the leap-year was provided for by doubling this feast, called Cormarë or Ringday.


In other words, Yavannië 30 of the New Reckoning calendar falls on Frodo's birthday, Shire 'September' 22, except in leap-years when Yavannië 30 falls on 'September' 21 due to the Shire Calendar's leap-day in summer (Overlithe). So the New Reckoning calendar adds its leap-day, Cormarë (Ringday), between Yavannië 30 and its Middle-days. This way Yavannië 30 is a festival in every year, but in leap-years Cormarë falls on Frodo's actual birthday, and his birthday celebrations are doubled!

What's not clear to me from this quote: was Cormarë just the name of the New Reckoning's leap-day? Or was the festival that took place on Yavannië 30 also called Cormarë? Maybe both?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 30 2017, 9:30pm

Post #82 of 87 (2455 views)
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Assuming our June 21 for the Summer Solstice [In reply to] Can't Post

I did the math for this a while back as it relates to the Shire Reckoning and converting Shire-dates to our Gregorian calendar.

If June 23 corresponded to Midyear's Day then the average difference between Shire dates and ours would be eight days.

If June 22 corresponded to Midyear's Day then the average difference between Shire dates and our own would be nine days.

If June 20 corresponded to Midyear's Day then the average difference between Shire dates and ours would be eleven days.

Only if our June 21 corresponds to the hobbits' Midyear's Day does the Shire dates average in advance of ours by ten days. So the professor's calculation of 9 Afteryule to equate to our January 1 is incorrect. It is 11 Afteryule that should correspond to our New Year's Day. Also, under this assumption, the Shire date 2 Yule corresponds well with the winter solstice as the first day of the year in Shire Reckoning.

What I find compelling is that if we do assume that our June 21 conforms with Midsummer's Day in Shire Reckoning then we meet almost all of Tolkien's conditions -- and the only one we don't is where we can apply his own qualification: "I am not skilled in these matters, and may have made many errors..."

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Murlo
Rivendell


Oct 1 2017, 3:31pm

Post #83 of 87 (2379 views)
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"some ten days" is too vague [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that if we want to observe the Shire Calendar in modern times, then reckoning from December 21st so that June 21st falls on Mid-year's Day (or Overlithe) makes the most sense.

Even if Tolkien's statements were meant in the context of the summer solstice of the ancient past, I think reckoning from December 21st fits the seasons in modern times the way it was "originally" intended in those ancient times.

I'm still not convinced Tolkien made a calculation mistake in these statements, because without knowing the correct context and actually seeing his math, "some ten days" is vague enough that it can be interpreted in different ways.

For example, let's look at just the 1st day of the month in the Shire vs. Gregorian calendars for different possible Mid-year's Day alignments.

  • If Mid-year's Day corresponded with June 21 then Shire months would start 8-11 days in advance of the corresponding Gregorian month.

  • If Mid-year's Day corresponded with June 22 then Shire months would start 7-10 days in advance of the corresponding Gregorian month.

  • If Mid-year's Day corresponded with June 23 then Shire months would start 6-9 days in advance of the corresponding Gregorian month.



So without crunching any numbers or averages on these lists, if I just looked at these figures and wanted to sum them all up in one line (recall he may have been thinking of the shifting dates over millennia), I might think stating "Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some ten days" would cover it.

I haven't done the averages for all Shire dates vs. all Gregorian dates in each calendar, so I'll accept your results for now, and I can also see that as a valid interpretation of "some ten days" as well.

So even if he didn't make a mistake in calculations, I think Tolkien's vagueness with these statements was at least an error of phrasing or language ;)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 1 2017, 3:47pm

Post #84 of 87 (2375 views)
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Fair enough. [In reply to] Can't Post

J.R.R. Tolkien's figures are certainly vague enough to provide some wiggle room in our interpretations. I equate our June 21 with the Shire's Midyear's Day (with the exception of leap years) because I find it the most convenient interpretation. If your mileage varies, I'm fine with that! Cool

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor


Murlo
Rivendell


Oct 1 2017, 4:23pm

Post #85 of 87 (2367 views)
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interpretation varies for modern vs. ancient times [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I equate our June 21 with the Shire's Midyear's Day (with the exception of leap years) because I find it the most convenient interpretation. If your mileage varies, I'm fine with that! Cool


And just to reiterate, I agree that your interpretation makes the most sense in modern times Cool


Murlo
Rivendell


Oct 1 2017, 10:00pm

Post #86 of 87 (2341 views)
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Aragorn and the Kings' Reckoning [In reply to] Can't Post


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The New Reckoning's Yavannië 30 "corresponded with former September 22", Frodo's birthday. Since Shire "March 25" was equivalent with "March 25 in both Kings' and Stewards' Reckoning" at that time, then "former September 22" must be a reference to the Shire Calendar; because if the New Reckoning New Year's Day was equivalent with Stewards' Reckoning "March 25" as well, then the New Reckoning Yavannië 30 and Shire "September 22" would be equivalent with Stewards' Reckoning "September 23".


I overlooked another possibility when I made this comparison: the "former September 22" could have also been a reference to the Kings' Reckoning "September 22", which would have fallen on the same day as Shire "September 22" if "March 25" fell on the same day in both calendars.

If "former September 22" is a reference to the Kings' Reckoning, then I wonder if that implies that Aragorn and the Dúnedain of the North never adopted the Stewards' Reckoning and continued observing the Kings' Reckoning throughout the Third Age.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 1 2017, 10:24pm

Post #87 of 87 (2335 views)
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That might make sense. [In reply to] Can't Post


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If "former September 22" is a reference to the Kings' Reckoning, then I wonder if that implies that Aragorn and the Dúnedain of the North never adopted the Stewards' Reckoning and continued observing the Kings' Reckoning throughout the Third Age.


I could see that. There is no reason to assume that the Dúnedain of the North would have adopted the Stewards' Reckoning of Gondor.

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor

 
 

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