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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 5 2017, 8:55pm
Post #151 of 174
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Deceptively pastoral and agrarian
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Tolkien does require a lot of industry in the background, doesn't he? Yet the Shire in most people's minds is "good-tilled earth," i.e., small family farms lovingly cultivated by happy, virtuous people. In that sense, he's not an altogether honest author in conjuring up a land that doesn't really exist the way he portrays it. But then again, it's a fairy tale, so he can get away with just about anything he wants.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 5 2017, 11:12pm
Post #152 of 174
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Further, one could speculate that they were traumatized by the destruction of Numenor, even though Tolkien never says so directly, because that gift of land to the Edain backfired worse than inviting the Elves to Aman did and resulted in Papa God wiping out the whole land and most of the Numenorean race, plus bending the world into a sphere. Again, we could expect that wise gods would figure out a way forward, but humans can react to disasters by becoming deliberately isolationist, which they did.
Oh, I place the seed of that even further back to the drowning of Beleriand, especially since the Valar had a direct hand in that, where the (alleged*) Change of the World was brought about by Eru Himself.
* I state alleged because the Change of the World, like the Great Flood of the The Bible makes more sense in the context of Myth than as history or science.
"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall.” -- The Doctor
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 6 2017, 11:31am
Post #153 of 174
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I've always doubted that the Shire could really support its population in the style that we see. I suspect that really there would need to be a lot of stuff being produced in cities or colonies somewhere. But the Shire is a fantasy place, so perhaps we're better off imagining it as magically fertile and productive.
Initially, The Shire is being asset-stripped, a very economic form of destruction.To begin with (as was pointed out last 'official' rad-through) it i almost being treated like a colony of Isengard, to which it exports luxury goods, presumably at advantageous prices. Later I think of the activities of the Europeans in Conrad's Heart of Darkness, or of the worst accusations made against multinationals in extraction industries. But I think it's not important if we can't understand the situation in economic terms. Indeed, we see it all through the eyes of the bemused hobbits, and so perhaps it's better if the new order appears to make no sense!
I think that over time the situation is exacerbated by the corruption, cruelty and incompetence of the ruffians, and of course in the final phase Saruman is no longer concerned by any scheme wider than ruining as much as possible, to spite Frodo and Gandalf.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Sep 6 2017, 11:32am)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 6 2017, 1:58pm
Post #154 of 174
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I wonder where Saruman would have wandered off too if he had not been killed?
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He could not go west....nothing there for him....elves and dwarves.
He could not go east....Rangers would have caught him.
He could possibly turn south but not much in that direction...he would have to avoid Rohan and Gondor.
He could turn north ....but once again, there is nothing there...ice men?
Maybe he would wander to the far East or South and still try to cause problems. But, without his power, he is very vulnerable.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 6 2017, 7:49pm
Post #155 of 174
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Fans vs. impartial literary critics
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I think as fans, despite all the poking around we do, we are ultimately forgiving of any fault. But I suspect a hard-core, impartial literary critic would rip on Tolkien for an unrealistic economy, even if it is a fairy tale.
Good point about the Shire being a tributary to Isengard, itself a tributary to Mordor (though more politically than economically, and of course not as loyally as the Shire/Lotho is). It's never clear to me how the abundant overland commerce & transportation works between the Shire and Isengard, even assuming armed legions protecting caravans of goods. Boromir lost his horse at Tharbad, so how do all these wagons get across? One of those unknown details.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 6 2017, 7:52pm
Post #156 of 174
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Saruman was truly a lost soul, with nowhere to go
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It is odd he didn't try to go east when originally released from Isengard. Gandalf mocks him when they encounter him near Dunland, telling Saruman he's going the wrong way if he's trying to escape Aragorn's realm. But maybe that was just a lie by Saruman, and he was headed the only place where he still had a power base left, and that was the Shire.
But once turned from there, and assuming he hadn't been killed, it's hard to see where he would go. Back to a life of hungry begging, maybe eventually eating Grima--sidekicks are good to keep around for that reason.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 6 2017, 7:55pm
Post #157 of 174
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Granted, we are just partaking in speculation that Tolkien never had time to actually
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work out nor do I think he had any inclination to do so. But for us fans, it is simply a way to imagine how things in this so real to us world could operate. It is just fun to consider some of the small points.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 6 2017, 7:55pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 7 2017, 1:24am
Post #158 of 174
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Well, here we are, about caught up to the book calendar and at the end of our LOTR read through, not including the Appendices which will be started under a new thread.
Frodo spends his year basically putting his affairs in order and writing. Sam was extremely busy with the supervision of the restoration of the Shire and with the help of Galadriel's gifts - a Mallorn seed and grow dust - the Shire will recover much faster than usual. The Party Tree will be replaced with a magnificent tree (that hopefully will thrive.
Sam, marries and has a child - that was fast! He wasted no time! Merry and Pippin cavort around as Shire lords as they stand out with their increased size and grand dress.
Bilbo passes the Old Took (hmm, I wonder what led to his longevity considering he had no Ring to "unnaturally" extend his life. He seems to have just enjoyed very good longevity genes, as with humans, a tiny few live to advances ages.
The time comes for the journey to The Havens - I think all of us as readers feel this sense of loss too. The reading started and we experienced all of the beauty, wonder, danger with these memorable characters and must say good-bye (once again!).
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 7 2017, 1:32am
Post #159 of 174
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This has been a very enjoyable read through for me -
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it has been many years since I read the books cover to cover. I had forgotten certain details and some were colored by film and artistic presentations.
Being once again captured by Tolkien's writing and being sucked into Middle Earth is always a pleasure. You feel the wet grass and mossy stones under foot, the cool waters and smell fragrances in the air, the warmth of hearth with good food and drink plus the cold and dankness of dark, scary places. The sulfurous smells of Gorgoroth and bad B.O. of orcs.
I hope we discovered some unique things for discussion that may have been missed in other read throughs.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 7 2017, 2:27pm
Post #160 of 174
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replying to "Sam, marries and has a child - that was fast!"
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Well, he was handling Lorien Fertility Dust without using gloves or goggles....
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Sep 7 2017, 2:29pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 7 2017, 2:28pm
Post #161 of 174
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I enjoyed it too - thanks for leading! //
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~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 7 2017, 2:30pm
Post #162 of 174
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Fantasy economics underpins a lot of English fiction
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Look at Jane Austen's world - her characters live in a bubble in which the harsh realities of how their income is really being earned is never examined. It's all very well to have "five hundred a year" or whatever it is, but the reality of where the money comes from is never considered. Without the rapacity commerce of the British Empire there would be no money for the civilized lifestyle of the English shires, but you'd hardly know it if you only had the works of Jane Austen to go by. Tolkien seems to be following the same approach, but it's harder for him to get away with it, because although we know the real-world situation that lies behind Jane Austen's world, Middle-earth is different - it appears to be complete in itself, and there's no room in it for the equivalent of the British Empire.
I think the mismatch comes about partly because Tolkien is deliberately playing with historical periods, with the Shire belonging to a much later period than most of the rest of Middle-earth. He tries to fudge it in the appendices by claiming that his "translation" has transformed the original land of the hobbits into something more familiar to his English readers. But in the end we have to just admit that it's a fantasy - although that does make me wonder if in that case Jane Austen was writing fantasy too...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 7 2017, 2:55pm
Post #165 of 174
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A couple of things stand out for me:
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First, the presence of divine action - very subtle throughout the story.
Second, it was fun keeping track of every instance of Gandalf using magic - innate power. I counted more than I remembered.
Third - seeing where the book source material enters the films at different places and often being said by different characters.
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squire
Half-elven
Sep 7 2017, 5:30pm
Post #166 of 174
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Austen's fiction (and the rest) are built on "unpleasant economics" not "fantasy economics".
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There's nothing fantastic, in the literal meaning of the term, about the aristocratic socioeconomic structures that underlie so much of European art and literature. As you say, the reality of it may not be examined very closely - in fact, it's usually taken for granted by the writers and by their intended audiences - but that's not the same as the problems we encounter when trying to analyze Tolkien's construction of the Shire. He explicitly rules out the presence of a commercial and industrial metropolis and/or empire as the driver and consumer of the idyllic Shire's agricultural production. He only gets away with it because, well, fantasy.
"News Flash: the genre's called Fantasy. It's meant to be unrealistic, you myopic manatee!" (as ranted by JRRT against George RR Martin in the fabulous Rap Battle video).
One can, of course, debate whether Austen's fiction is "fantasy", in that it scants considerations of economics that even her embubbled characters might, in real life, have paid more attention to. That's the privilege of any author of fiction - no book or other work of art can possibly contain the entirety of life, and what makes it art is the choices made - but I feel that to use the term in direct equation to Tolkien's type of "fantasy" is abusing our critical vocabulary.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Ettelewen
Rohan
Sep 7 2017, 6:24pm
Post #167 of 174
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Granted I only lurked, but I really enjoyed the informal approach this time through. Thanks!
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 7 2017, 7:48pm
Post #168 of 174
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... you wouldn't let me get away with my argument! ;)
I wasn't being serious, of course, when I said Jane Austen was "fantasy", just pointing out that there's not as big a gap between "realism" and "fantasy" as might at first appear. Even in novels set in the real world, many details of the real world itself may remain outside the story. I agree though that Tolkien's world appears to be too fully described to leave room for the kind of economic underpinnings that the Shire would need in order to exist as it does. Still, I'm not sure Tolkien "explicitly rules out" such things, as you claim. I'm always a bit uncomfortable with the way some readers want to build up everything in his stories into a fully integrated world, without taking into account the many gaps in the knowledge of the hobbit sources of the stories. Of course there isn't room in the story for the kind of "commercial and industrial metropolis and/or empire" that you feel would be necessary to explain the hobbits' way of life (although even pre-industrial revolution there were relatively prosperous periods in England, at least for the kinds of middle-class folk that we mostly meet in the Shire). But there is enough vagueness, I think, to encourage the reader not to care about such things in the first place (just as we don't care to question whether Mr Darcy's fortune comes from child labour or the slave trade).
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Sep 7 2017, 8:03pm
Post #170 of 174
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I always associated Sharkey, not with any Irish name, but with the huge and fierce hunting fish that, when it shows up, makes short work of all the lesser fishes of the sea I would guess that's exactly what Tolkien wanted you to think, just as he wants you to think of the properties of cotton and the cotton-wool dressing called "gamgee" when you read the surnames Cotton and Gamgee (although Tolkien explains in the Appendices that the names have nothing to do with those substances really). So many of his names (Proudfoot, Baggins etc.) are real surnames that also contain images that work for us modern readers even if their original owners would not have understood them in the same way. Indeed it's not clear how the idea of sharks would have any resonance for orcs who presumably know nothing of the sea. But it has a resonance for us, as Tolkien well knew!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 7 2017, 8:21pm
Post #171 of 174
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This goes back to elements being a bit off if he wanted to create a mythology for England.
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Cotton of course is not a crop of England as it is a warm weather plant. I think more of wool, leather, flax etc. The same for tobacco being a new world product. So, we have these anachronisms. They were important for his Shire world to represent the ideal English county / village life that he so cherished even if it was reflected a 17-19 th century version in a world set in an otherwise earlier age.
It is more of a two part mythology...ancient and early modern.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Sep 7 2017, 8:21pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Sep 9 2017, 7:02am
Post #172 of 174
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Thanks for leading us through Middle-earth again, Eru! //
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 10 2017, 9:06pm
Post #173 of 174
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"A district of well-ordered business".
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I think squire is right - even if when reading just the book, one could "get away" with your argument.
But once you read Concerning Hobbits in the Prologue, it falls down:
...in that pleasant corner of the world they plied their well-ordered business of living, and they heeded less and less the world outside where dark things moved, until they came to think that peace and plenty were the rule in Middle-earth and the right of all sensible folk.
That is nothing like Impreial England; in fact, it seems to strike nearer home.
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sador
Half-elven
Sep 10 2017, 9:08pm
Post #174 of 174
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My participation has been erratic, and often I have only read your posts long after discussion about them was over; but it was both illuminating and greatly enjoyable.
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