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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 4 2017, 10:38pm

Post #26 of 65 (1206 views)
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Why terrible? [In reply to] Can't Post

You admit that you do actually like Jackson's LotR films; and whether or not you care for some individual performances, the casting and costuming--purely in visual terms--works great (the occasional bit of plate armor aside).

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 4 2017, 10:39pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 4 2017, 10:44pm

Post #27 of 65 (1200 views)
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Well if Tolkien critics [In reply to] Can't Post

aren't able to distinguish between the books and the movies, then surely you have to blame the standard of Tolkien criticism, not the films.

It's an unfortunate fact of life in our hypercommercialized world that book publishers will always want to profit as much as they can from tie-ins for works that have been made into movies or serialized on TV. It was hard for years to buy a copy of Pride and Prejudice without Colin Firth smouldering from the cover, and the scene where Elizabeth comes across him dripping wet after his swim is still a lot of people's iconic image of the novel, despite the fact that it's not actually in the novel.

It's true that for a lot of people, films and TV are far more vivid and accessible than books, but what's so surprising about that? Most people throughout history have consumed their stories visually and orally, through plays, songs and storytelling. It's the written book that is the anomaly.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



squire
Half-elven


Mar 4 2017, 10:44pm

Post #28 of 65 (1202 views)
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'Terrible' is a bit much, but we're not talking about the movies [In reply to] Can't Post

If I understand Wizzardly's point, the magazine says it's about "100 years of Tolkien's Middle-earth" but the imagery offered is about the last 15 of those 100 years, and the previous 85 years, if illustrated for a magazine cover, would look quite different from what was produced.

But, as he's admitted several times, from a sales point of view the decision is obviously defensible. The objection is to the "100 years" nonsense, not the movies.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


wizzardly
Rohan


Mar 4 2017, 10:51pm

Post #29 of 65 (1196 views)
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Mainly because... [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Tolkien hated PJ's adaptation, and I feel that he, second only to Tolkien himself , has the most intimate relationship to the writings, and of his father's idea of what would constitute a satisfactory film adaptation. Being that this magazine was supposed to be about the author and the 100 years of his creations existence, it would have made more sense to include images that were either done by Tolkien himself, or that he had personally approved of.

"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time." -Christopher Tolkien


squire
Half-elven


Mar 4 2017, 10:52pm

Post #30 of 65 (1201 views)
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Yes, indeed. My suggestion was that the films lowered the standard of Tolkien criticism. [In reply to] Can't Post

If only in a new way.

In fact, Tolkien criticism, at the academic level, has always been plagued by fannish writing. You will remember we talked about that phenomenon during the Reading Room's Brian Rosebury discussion.

See in particular points 3A to 4A in my linked opening post of that week - near the bottom.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 4 2017, 11:54pm

Post #31 of 65 (1186 views)
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Cover Dress [In reply to] Can't Post

The cover does not just have to attract the attention of the devoted Tolkien reader but also the casual fan of the books, movies, and other related media. This cover does that. At least Tolkien is pictured.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 4 2017, 11:55pm)


wizzardly
Rohan


Mar 5 2017, 3:25am

Post #32 of 65 (1168 views)
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And a beautiul image of Tolkien it is... [In reply to] Can't Post

however, I would be happier with it if it at least included representations of some of the other adaptations, and not just from the one filmmaker. In the 100 years of Middle-earth, there have been many worthwhile efforts in visualizing Tolkien's world, why all the focus on just PJ's?

"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time." -Christopher Tolkien


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 5 2017, 9:24am

Post #33 of 65 (1159 views)
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Because the designer had to produce something.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...eye-catching. A composite of Tolkien's photo with images pulled from illustrations by various artists, cartoon films, Jackson films, stage plays, et al would look a mess and cost a fortune in repro fees. The film stills are much easier to blend into one design.

It's the content of the magazine which celebrates 100 years of Middle-earth and as I haven't seen it, I can't judge how well it does the job. The cover is simply intended to alert potential readers to its existence. Photo of Tolkien for the 'book' people, film stills that will be instantly recognisable to anyone walking past the newsstand..... And I'd say it's doing that job extremely well; for starters, we have a whole thread here discussing it - and I wouldn't mind betting that a lot of people here will at least look out for it now and most likely buy it. Job done. Designer and magazine very satisfied.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 5 2017, 1:48pm

Post #34 of 65 (1146 views)
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Wasted Space [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's the content of the magazine which celebrates 100 years of Middle-earth and as I haven't seen it, I can't judge how well it does the job.


I think I provided a pretty fair summary of the issue a few posts back. However, there is perhaps too much wasted space, not just ads, but in the form of two-page spreads at the start of the three sections and blown-up bits of random map-art that could have been filled with more meaningful content. At least some of the photos and movie stills are captioned.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


wizzardly
Rohan


Mar 5 2017, 3:06pm

Post #35 of 65 (1136 views)
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It is eye catching, I will say that... [In reply to] Can't Post

and I will likely take a look next time I'm in the grocery store, but I don't think I will be purchasing it. First of all, $11 is way too much for information that I already have in my possession and in far worthier publications, and secondly, it clearly isn't targeted to admirers of Tolkien such as myself. However, I will say that I am glad to see they at least printed "Middle-earth" correctly, and the movie stills they chose are all from the decent PJ adaptation, and doesn't include any of his most egregious deviations, such as Arwen at the Ford.

"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time." -Christopher Tolkien


Dunadan of North Arnor
The Shire

Mar 8 2017, 12:45am

Post #36 of 65 (1060 views)
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I was rather impressed! [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't always judge a magazine by its cover!

You can easily scissor the cover off, and be left with a wonderful frontispiece of Ronald & Edith in their garden, and the rest of the magazine is truly a tribute to the man and his work, with next to zero ads.

The commentary is not always 100% accurate, but pretty close, and I'm not particularly fond of a minor contributor in the midst of the magazine, but its generally worthy of respect IMO.

I bought 2 copies, costing me over $30 Canadian dollars, but since I have all of David Day in my collection, this is I think a relatively worthwile acquisition.

The 2nd copy will be a gift to my brother, a Tolkien fan, but not before being passed thru my mother. Not a Tolkien fan, but an avid reader of topical, historical, stuff, which is exactly who this magazine is marketed to after all, and I'm sure she'll enjoy it. The photographs provided are an excellent montage, and I think it relays the life of Tolkien rather well.

I've seen worse!


FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 8 2017, 8:26am

Post #37 of 65 (1029 views)
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Ian McKellen tweeted a link [In reply to] Can't Post

to one of the stories: http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/how-j-r-r-tolkien-redefined-fantasy-stories/

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Mar 10 2017, 5:00pm

Post #38 of 65 (972 views)
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Yes, I bought it! Learned some things, too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to find this thread - though too bad it got derailed by complainers. I haven't read all of it, just kind of skimmed through it. I found the photo of Tolkien's gravestone inscribed with Beren and Luthien really touching! But I'm a little boggled as to why they're saying "100 years of Tolkien," when the books aren't that old yet? I assume Tolkien would be 100 years old if he were still alive? Even so, he didn't start writing until later.


Another thing I remember reading is that, when Peter Jackson was talking to the Weinstein brothers about producing LoTR, they were insisting that one of the hobbits had to be killed off!!!Shocked Now how on earth would THAT have worked? And which one? Maybe Frodo dying with Gollum? Kill off Sam - no, who would carry the ring for Frodo if that happened? Have Merry die saving Eowyn? Um, I haven't read RoTK in a long time, but doesn't he help save the Shire upon his return (something PJ's movies skipped entirely)? That leaves Pippin, em, no, don't kill him off either! I can only IMAGINE how some of the Hobbit haters would have reacted to such a thing, LOL!

I'd say I've entered my second childhood, but I never left the first!


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 10 2017, 7:03pm

Post #39 of 65 (967 views)
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I think the 100 years.... [In reply to] Can't Post

..relates to the writing of the early stories that would develop into The Silmarillion, when Tolkien was still in the army but unfit for service at the front, and was posted to various camps in England. The published books were much later but the ideas that became the background to them were taking shape around 100 years ago. It's not his personal centenary - if Tolkien were still alive he'd be about 125.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 10 2017, 7:55pm

Post #40 of 65 (961 views)
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100 Years of Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been 100 years since J.R.R. Tolkien wrote the first story/poem that began his development of Middle-earth. The magazine is as much a celebration of Middle-earth itself as it is a remembrance of Tolkien.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 10 2017, 7:55pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Mar 11 2017, 8:36pm

Post #41 of 65 (939 views)
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Lee cover and Jacksonian images [In reply to] Can't Post

I almost bought it just for the reproduction of Lee's cover, which "might" [?] be larger here than it will be reproduced on the actual book [maybe?].

And while I understand why the Jacksonian images are being employed there... well let me put it this way: I think [?] I disagree with wizzardly about the first three films, as I find all six fairly...

... well, yucky. To get technical Wink


wizzardly
Rohan


Mar 11 2017, 10:40pm

Post #42 of 65 (926 views)
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PJ's LotR is certainly not without its faults... [In reply to] Can't Post

don't get me wrong, but if they had to go the mainstream pop-culture route, it is by far the lesser of two evils. I would have preferred Lee art with possibly an artists reproduction of the Tolkien photo (done by Lee himself ideally) so as to blend in with the rest of the images.

"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time." -Christopher Tolkien


Elthir
Grey Havens

Mar 12 2017, 1:28pm

Post #43 of 65 (912 views)
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lesser evils [In reply to] Can't Post

Blech... same cooks, same soup. Certain side dishes may be more obviously un-Tolkienian in films 4,5,6...

... but sometimes evil is more evil when it's less obvious Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Mar 12 2017, 1:30pm)


priell3
Lorien


Mar 12 2017, 8:24pm

Post #44 of 65 (887 views)
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I just bought a copy... [In reply to] Can't Post

...looking forward to reading it this evening.

MikeP


wizzardly
Rohan


Mar 12 2017, 8:37pm

Post #45 of 65 (881 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, subtle evil is often the most heinous of all, and as this was supposed to be a sort of commemorative publication in recognition of Tolkien and 100 years of Middle-earth; showcasing his photograph with images from a film which his own son, editor and literary executor had this to say about:

"The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialization has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: to turn my head away."

...somehow seems a bit disrespectful and not at all an appropriate tribute.

Now, that being said, I had a chance today to take a look at this publication and I will say, that it does include some beautiful photographs of Tolkien, some of which I have never seen before, and some very nice ones of important locations in and around Oxford that were of importance in his life. As to be expected from the cover, it is very PJcentric, but didn't include much from the Hobbit at all which I was happy to see.

"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time." -Christopher Tolkien


Silmaril
Rohan


Mar 13 2017, 7:44am

Post #46 of 65 (852 views)
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Beauty and seriousness... [In reply to] Can't Post

I see a lot of that in the LOTR movie.


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 13 2017, 1:56pm

Post #47 of 65 (826 views)
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Yes, so did I.... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Elthir
Grey Havens

Mar 15 2017, 2:42pm

Post #48 of 65 (795 views)
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great expectations [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, respect for Christopher Tolkien's opinion of the films would have been nice, but I wouldn't expect Newsweek to bend over backwards here [even if they were aware of CJRT's opinion]. Newsweek wants to sell paper here, after all.

That said, I can imagine a cover that utilizes various images from various sources and time periods, and yet is not a mess (or at least, it seems a possible thing to me)... which I agree, would at least seem to speak better to the 100 years idea in my opinion. Unfortunately Newsweek didn't hire me for the cover here, probably in part because they don't know I exist...

... although I do exist! At least in my reality.

You can see me, can't you?


(This post was edited by Elthir on Mar 15 2017, 2:50pm)


Meneldor
Valinor


Mar 15 2017, 6:10pm

Post #49 of 65 (767 views)
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Did you guys hear something? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought I heard something. I'm probably just imagining things.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 15 2017, 7:16pm

Post #50 of 65 (756 views)
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Nothing to see here. [In reply to] Can't Post

Move along! Move along!

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

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