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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
In Re to Azog
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 1:44am

Post #126 of 202 (644 views)
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     I'd stick with my original quote. [In reply to]  

Though this does rather confirm dislike seeking an outlet, rather than a problem causing dislike.

Thanks for clarifying.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 2:01am

Post #127 of 202 (642 views)
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     Well if believing so [In reply to]  

allows you to gloss over all the obvious glaring issues surroundig Azog and how he was written and created and altered then good for you. Also good of you to be able draw conclusion about my motivations and reasoning on this so definitively, its like you are inside my head! Unsure

For me I don't dislike Azog just because he is there, I dislike Azog because I think his writing his poor, his character poorly defined and the product of uncertainty and continual change, and because if you are going to resurrect Azog the rather intelligent and quite eloquent orc of the book you shouldn't turn him into a near monosyllabic grunting idiot who kills his subordinates on a whim for not pleasing him- thats not a Tolkien villain its a Bond villian, one of the rubbish ones at that.

I also dislike him as part of the whole 'the hobbit is the story of Thorin Oakenshield' nonsense spouted by PJ which utterly betrays his thinking, in fact the whole quote in my view tells us all we need to know about whats wrong with TH films and PJ's thinking on them-

"Obviously the Hobbit is the story of Throin Oakenshield quest for the Lonely Mountain and Lord of the Rings is the story of Frodo’s journey to try to destroy the ring. But they are nonetheless connected and they feed into each other and are in the same world."

Compare that statement to what Tolkien says in the book it is about-

"This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected."

They are not talking about the same story at all.

One is the story of Throin retaking the Lonely Mountain the other the story of a Baggins having an adventure.
One is only connected to the LotR's through the presence of the Ring (though no more than a useful trinket in the book) and Gollum in both, the other is so tied up with LotR's it makes a mockery of the original story in its attempts to ape LotR's style and tone and squeeze it somehow into the style and tone of TH.

Something Tolkien attempted himself and abandoned because it 'no longer felt like the Hobbit' and that for me is exactly the problem with Pj's films- they don't feel like the hobbit any more.

So no I don't dislike Azog just because of dislike for the sake of it or because no matter what I was always going to hate him- I dislike the character for well thought out reasons, for what they did with him, how he was written and used.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 2:05am

Post #128 of 202 (641 views)
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     I'm a perceptive sort. [In reply to]  

I'm usually fairly sound in the conclusions I draw about motivations and the like.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 2:10am

Post #129 of 202 (638 views)
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     Well thats a relief [In reply to]  

I can just stop having thoughts of my own and go get drunk and you can just tell me what I am thinking and why.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 2:14am

Post #130 of 202 (634 views)
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     Sounds like a lot of effort on my part. [In reply to]  

Let's just stick to you typing and me understanding.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 2:17am

Post #131 of 202 (630 views)
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     Well I can try the first part.... [In reply to]  

.....not to sure how well we are doing on the second bit mind you! Wink

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 2:18am

Post #132 of 202 (628 views)
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     Fear not. [In reply to]  

I'm sure enough for two.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 2:21am

Post #133 of 202 (625 views)
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     I dont doubt it! [In reply to]  

But my bed is calling to me so I will for now bid you a goodnight Spriggan.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 2:23am

Post #134 of 202 (618 views)
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     Nighty night [In reply to]  

To you too.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 15 2015, 4:54am

Post #135 of 202 (609 views)
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     Fair enough. [In reply to]  


In Reply To
We know little of that. Only that whoever Balin means by "our people" are there by the time of the events of TH.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that is the only data the audience have.



We still have a large group of Dwarf refugees from Erebor moving into the Blue Mountains regardless of whether or not there was a previous Dwarf-colony. Someone would have noticed, so my point remains valid.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 15 2015, 5:02am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 15 2015, 9:20am

Post #136 of 202 (610 views)
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     Four things.... [In reply to]  

First, your idea of making Azog the Great Goblin and putting Bolg in charge of the goblins who capture the dwarves really made me smile. I can just hear the howls of 'but that isn't in the book' - but I notice that you do concede the screenwriter's need to change the book to make the story work onscreen.

Second, I dispute the idea you seem to have of dwarf history and culture being an irrelevance that the film should have discarded. Tolkien didn't think it was and I'd say it's essential to understanding who Bilbo's unexpected visitors are and why their journey matters to them, and increasingly to him. Of course the story is about Bilbo but he doesn't exist in a vacuum. The other characters he encounters on his journey and their stories are woven into his: no main character can't exist in isolation. So if Peter Jackson did say that The Hobbit is the story of Thorin Oakenshield's quest for the Lonely Mountain - you keep quoting this but give no idea of the source of the remark or its context - he isn't wrong. The book does tell the story of Thorin's quest; factor in information from the LotR appendices and the film tells the story of the quest from its beginning and the deeper reason for it - but always, in book and film (here's the critical bit) from Bilbo's point of view. If Peter Jackson did say what you say he said, in those precise words, I'd lay odds he wasn't defining the film and its meaning once and for all - just talking about one aspect of the story. He knows whose story it is - the clue is in the title.

Third, as I'm sure you're perfectly well aware, the Necromancer who became Sauron is Tolkien's plot, not Peter Jackson's, and Bilbo played no part in that storyline in the books either, except.... except that he found a certain ring, which would ultimately determine his life and fate.... So I fail to see how it can fall under the heading of 'poor storytelling' in the film when it is actually Tolkien's story.

Fourth and final. You made sweeping statements about how the final film is a '2-hour glorification of war'. I point out to you that it isn't a war, it's just one battle. Violent, terrifying and ending in grief, not glory - and exactly in the book it begins with an unnecessary squabble between friends over treasure and ends in a life or death struggle against the real enemy fighting for the domination of the North. So you shift your ground completely - now it seems that it isn't the battle you object to at all, it's the fighting in the goblin caves. If you can't answer the points people raise, there's real no point to this, is there?


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 9:47am

Post #137 of 202 (602 views)
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     Morning Dormouse! [In reply to]  

I have never been opposed to adaption- just poor adaption and ill thought out writing- which I believe TH films to be.

I didn't say it was irrelevant- I said all the flashbacks and shifting so much emphasis onto Thorin is unnecessary and irrelevant- I would have book Thorn- old, prideful, lusting for gold from the start and full of grievances.
As in the book much of the relevant history can be conveyed in more effective means than just stopping the plot stone cold dead every so often to give an info dump.

An advantage to my proposal for Bolg is that it means the story no longer requires giving all that history- Azog would not come into it at all- Bolg motivation remains the same to avenge his father and the Great Goblin (which would now be one and the same person) but it saves shed loads of exposition setting it up as it can all be set up in the context of the goblin town scenes from capture onwards. Setting up the character dynamic here would also in my view be a far better use of screen-time than a ten minute cgi comic action sequence.

As to the quote here you go from a press interview-

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/04/no-regrets-peter-jackson-says-goodbye-to-middle-earth.html

The Necromancer is Tolkiens plot of course but as a good writer and natural story teller he had the sense not to include it as a plot but simply as a means to move Gandalf out the way when needed. What happens and what is going on and who the Necromancer is all vague and left to a few brief lines here and there dropping hints.
What PJ does is to bring it right into the main body of the story, and its that decision which puts into direct competition with Bilbo's story which suddenly is a lot less important- after all whats a single dragon compared to the ultimate evil?
So in order to try to make it somehow relevant to Bilbo's story they have to tortuously tie everything into Saurons machinations and his direct plans and influences, which takes up even more time, distracts even further from Bilbo's story as now you need Nazgul tombs, Radagast, Sebastian the hedgehog, the WC and all sorts of other stuff completely unnecessary to telling Bilbo's tale.
Another effect of it to make ME feel much smaller in scope, as now everyone is on one side or the other, no one is acting independently . As Tolkien complained about an earlier adaption attempt why does every bad guy have to be in league with the devil?

Regards the battle I am not talking about whether it ends in grief or if it is a war or a battle- I call it a war because Gandalf elevates it to a world shaking fight for all of ME even threatening the Shire (still dont know how that works) my problem is in how its done. Its full of exciting violent action,it doesnt down play the fighting as unpleasant and a bad thing, it revels in the good guys killing, tries to make them look as cool and heroic as possible, goes into slow mo ect
Its the sort of violence often seen in video games where the act itself is presented as being cool and exciting.

To quote PJ again - from the same interview as abovean din reply to the question 'I feel like you upped the cool factor with this battle.'-

'What’s the next cool thing that the elf is going to do? So when he shows up in these films, we were like, “Oh we’re going to have to do [something cool] again.”

The very idea of making the final film contain a very long battle of this nature, full of 'cool' violence could not be more opposite of how Tolkien handles it in the book.

Now thats not to say I think you can just knock Bilbo out in a film and just tell the audience what happened afterwards, but I think the battle's key points should have been presented with an awful lot less gloss and without a sense of the makers trying to get the audience to go 'hey look how amazing this violence looks'. The violence should not be presented as entertaining spectacle.

And I havent shifted my ground at all- I have objected consistently to the way the violence is portrayed in the films from Goblin town onwards. I was making this complaint when AUJ came out. I thought then I still do now that its completely inappropriate for TH.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Feb 15 2015, 9:55am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 9:53am

Post #138 of 202 (590 views)
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     I don't even think we know that, do we? [In reply to]  

All we actually know is that the refugees leave Erebor at the time of Smaug's attack and then, by the time of the events of TH some have settled in the Blue Mountains.

In between, we must have wandering in the wilderness and Moria - precise dates unknown.

So we don't know if the refugees went to the Blue Mountains before Moria. We don't know if they stuck together. We don't know how many left for Moria, if they did. We don't know how many returned or arrived after Moria (not many suggests the film). We don't know where or for how long they did their wilderness wandering.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 9:58am

Post #139 of 202 (588 views)
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     Why would the refugees go to Moria- [In reply to]  

why would you take your women, your children and your old to a place with a Balrog in it? That makes no sense at all? (Mind you the battle at Moria as presented makes no sense anyway)

Nor does it seem to make much sense to me that the refugees would just wander about ME when they have kin and friends and fellow dwarves established in two peaceful realms they can go to.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Feb 15 2015, 9:58am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 10:15am

Post #140 of 202 (582 views)
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     I don't think I suggested that they took women and children to battle [In reply to]  

I'm not sure how we got there.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 10:23am

Post #141 of 202 (580 views)
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     So where did all the refugees go then? [In reply to]  

If not to the Blue Mountians as in the book? Or are you proposing that the old, the infirm, the women and the children just wandered about with Thorin and co doing odd jobs for years on end first?

I don't understand where you think the refugees went after leaving Erebor.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 10:43am

Post #142 of 202 (570 views)
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     Oh. I'm saying we don't know for certain. [In reply to]  

Just as, if the books didn't mention where they went and when, we wouldn't know in that medium. The films don't specify any of the points in my post above on dates, numbers, order of events etc.

Actually, much the same is true in the books between Smaug's attack and Moria.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Feb 15 2015, 10:54am)


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 10:52am

Post #143 of 202 (568 views)
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     It might not stop to give specifics but common sense [In reply to]  

must come into it.

They are refugees, there are a lot of them, there are going to be old, sick, women and children and there are two perfectly viable dwarf kingdoms to go to, one of which we find out later is where they are.
I dont think we need to be told specifically, its rather obvious that given the choice between going to kin and friends in other dwarf places, or leading your people pointlessly about for years on end traveling the roads you are going to pick going to your kin. Why wouldn't you?

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 11:00am

Post #144 of 202 (568 views)
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     Again these things aren't in the films. [In reply to]  

As established dwarf kingdoms?

But, as it goes, the book doesn't follow your logic, as a counter example.

We aren't told where the refugees from Erebor went, other than those who escaped last and went to the Iron Hills. Thror and company instead go South for long and homeless wandering.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 11:10am

Post #145 of 202 (568 views)
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     But in the film [In reply to]  

we are shown the refugees leaving and there are a lot of them. They must have gone somewhere. And the logical and sensible place to go is either of the drwarf kingdoms- we know those kingdoms exist in the films becuase Dwalin mentions one of them and Dain is head of the other.

So again it comes down to are you proposing that all the refugees we saw in the film just wandered with Thorin and co?

If not then they must have gone to live somewhere and as Dwalin inform sus they end up in the Blue Mountains surely the obvious thing to conclude is the refuge went there. As Dwalin references 'our people' meaning the people of Erebor.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 11:55am

Post #146 of 202 (555 views)
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     Just as we are in the book. [In reply to]  

Where we are also told that lots of refugees left.

I'm proposing that we don't know, just as in the book. I'm also suggesting that, therefore we must allow for reasonable options and that Tolkien's own option is a reasonable one.

We don't know if the refugees stuck together or if, as in the book, some went to the Iron Hills, some went wandering with Thorin and some went elsewhere (where we do not know).

Certainly Thorin didn't settle in the Blue Mountains until after Moria and after two separate bouts of wandering and blacksmithing. His portion of the refugees, in the book, certainly didn't head for any dwarven area for many decades (as you suggest is common sense).

Just as in the book, surely we must allow that the settlement in Ered Luin may have been after Moria - with what people remained for Thorin - which gives us no conflict with Balin's line by the time of TH.

I'm not sure that we can say Tolkien's own version of events is against common sense.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 12:13pm

Post #147 of 202 (555 views)
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     You are forgetting film Dwalins words again [In reply to]  

Thorin might not have settled there till after Moria but its much more likely his people were there before- we know in the films the people of Erebor went there because Dwalin references them as 'our people' and its seems ridiculous to think that having just had their backsides whipped by Smaug and having lost their land and their possessions that the first thing they think to do is go take on a Balrog and reclaim Moria, refugees in tow.
It's ludicrous to think they took the women, children and sick with them to Moria.
Those people must have gone somewhere before Moria.

And as Dwalin refrences the Blue Mountains, says their people are settled and doing well there its not much of a leap to assume the bulk of Erebors refugees made their way to the Blue Mountains in the films.

After which the mad insane completely stupid ill-explained makes no sense at all plan to retake Moria took place.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 12:25pm

Post #148 of 202 (545 views)
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     Not at all. [In reply to]  

"Our people" being settled in the Blue Mountains by the time of TH would fit just as easily with the book version - those left after Moria.

There is nothing unreasonable in that.

PS I don't think they did take women and children to Moria - I'm not sure why that keeps suggesting itself?


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Feb 15 2015, 12:32pm

Post #149 of 202 (544 views)
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     It keep raising as an issue [In reply to]  

because if they didn't go to Moria they must have gone somewhere else- and that somewhere seems to be the Blue Mountains in the films. Simple.

The refugees not going there till after Moria doesn't make sense, as where were they whilst the battle was going on? Just still wandering about? Just waiting about somewhere in the hope the dwarves somehow defeat a Balrog?

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Feb 15 2015, 12:37pm

Post #150 of 202 (542 views)
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     Why not just as in the book? [In reply to]  

Some to the Iron Hills, some to Dunland, some elsewhere, presumably a diaspora in groups of different sizes.

Why should Tolkien be happy that they went to a number of places but we don't allow that as an option?

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