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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 9 2007, 9:15pm
Post #26 of 55
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I remember reading Wayne Hammond wrote somewhere that the leisurely pacing of Book I is necessary for readers to appreciate the Shire and feel that it is worth saving
One thing I have a problem with in a lot of modern fantasy, which is edited to begin in the middle of the action, is that a lot of the time I don't have any real feel for why I should care whether the hero saves the world or not.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 9 2007, 9:53pm
Post #27 of 55
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The Ring, yes, but also Saruman.
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Through the eyes of the hobbits Saruman hardly appears fair, but we do hear from others how fair he appears and especially how fair he sounds, although Tolkien admits that his words have no magic on the written page. The Ring also appears fair only through the eyes of others -- the readers are well aware of its evil soon after the story begins. Saruman is also the natural compliment of Aragorn because Saruman is the exception to the rule that everything associated with white is good, just as Aragorn is the exception to the rule that everything associated with black is evil.
Through the eyes of the hobbit heroes or the objective narrator, which is how the reader generally sees things, many things appear obvious that are not, in fact, obvious to others. Most people trust Boromir, respect Denethor, listen to Grima, fear Galadriel, distrust Gandalf, ignore the hobbits, and so on. I love the fact that the orcs and Gollum think of themselves as honorable and the elves as evil, rather than thinking of themselves as evil and dishonorable. It's much more realistic. The first person a liar deceives is himself.
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OhioHobbit
Gondor
Mar 10 2007, 2:18am
Post #28 of 55
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I just read Deb's entire account at work today during lunch. Well, a little past lunch. It was fascinating!
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Mar 10 2007, 1:23pm
Post #29 of 55
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Don't know if you read any of the messageboard stuff as well. I was 'Karen' on that board. It was an amazing journey.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 10 2007, 2:14pm
Post #30 of 55
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Through the eyes of the hobbit heroes or the objective narrator, which is how the reader generally sees things, many things appear obvious that are not, in fact, obvious to others. Most people trust Boromir, respect Denethor, listen to Grima, fear Galadriel, distrust Gandalf, ignore the hobbits, and so on.
It's certainly a commonplace in LotR that characters appear differently to those in the know (including the reader) than they do to others. However, I can only think of two - Aragorn and Denethor - who are introduced to the hobbits, and thus to us the readers, in an ambiguous way, so that our initial impression has to be reversed (albeit with hints, as I mentioned before, of what our true impression should be). Mostly we are not fooled at all, but are only told how others are fooled - we already know about Saruman's folly before we meet him, for example, and we have heard from Aragorn about Galadriel's goodness and wisdom before we meet her.
Thinking more about this, I'm not sure where the Ring fits into this scheme - I need to re-read The Shadow of the Past to see whether the Ring's beauty is allowed to mislead us at all before we find out its true nature. Probably not, since we saw its effect on Bilbo before we even know exactly what it was.
(I'm not sure I agree that "most people trust Boromir", by the way. I think he's introduced as much less sympathetic than he's allowed to become in retrospect. But that's a rather different issue.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 10 2007, 7:07pm
Post #31 of 55
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Rohan and Gondor adore Boromir.
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And that includes Faramir. Frodo and Sam do not, for obvious reasons, but they see something others generally do not.
As for ambiguously introduced characters, how about Farmer Maggot, or Bombadil, or Glorfindel, or Eomer, or Treebeard, or Theoden, or Faramir? How about Gandalf the White, as opposed to the Grey? Tolkien indulges in quite a bit of misdirection, I would say.
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OhioHobbit
Gondor
Mar 10 2007, 7:17pm
Post #32 of 55
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I didn't have time to read any of the messaeboard stuff, but I think that I will go back and do that. I stayed up late last night reading Mark-Edmond Howell's (Tolkien Virgin) blog. I couldn't stop till I finished it.
I did a search to see if either of them had reviewed the movies, but I couldn't find anything.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 10 2007, 8:43pm
Post #33 of 55
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only give us their views of Boromir after his death. He's a different character by then, I think - I mean in storytelling terms, not in the internal world of the story itself, where he was clearly held in high esteem during his life. But we don't hear any of this until after Boromir has been revealed to us as a hero by his death.
You are certainly right that there's suspense and uncertainty when various characters first appear on the scene - but that's not quite the same as what I'm trying to pinpoint. I'm looking for characters who are actually described in misleading terms, rather than who are simply unknowns until the advancement of the plot makes clear who they are, or which side they're on. Gandalf the White appearing as an old man comes close to my definition, but we don't see him clearly. Essentially, we simply don't know who he is until he reveals himself. The difference with Aragorn and Denethor, as I see it, is that we are given a clear initial description that implies something of the person's character, but that turns out to be misleading. Of course, Strider's heart of gold beneath his "rascally" exterior is soon revealed (even if Sam takes a bit of convincing), so it's not really a big deal. Denethor's underlying character unfolds in a much more subtle way.
One odd thing that always strikes me in the description of Denethor is the comparison to Aragorn:
Then the old man looked up. Pippin saw his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose between the dark deep eyes; and he was reminded not so much of Boromir as of Aragorn.
This description seems strikingly different to me from the initial one of Aragorn, with his "pale stern face" and "keen grey eyes", and yet we are invited to make the connection. I'm not sure why.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Morwen
Rohan
Mar 10 2007, 8:56pm
Post #34 of 55
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I think Tolkien is trying to connect Aragorn with Gondor, and with the line of kings. Pippin knows that Denethor and Boromir are related, obviously, but he still thinks of Aragorn as the Ranger from the North. He has only very recently realized that Aragorn is the hereditary king of Gondor, and of the same race as Denethor. Aragorn's eyes were gray instead of dark, but perhaps he and Denethor shared something in their facial shape or bone structure that marked them both as descendents of the Numenoreans. When Pippin makes that connection it surprises him.
I wish you could have been there
When she opened up the door
And looked me in the face
Like she never did before
I felt about as welcome
As a Wal-Mart Superstore--John Prine
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 10 2007, 9:33pm
Post #35 of 55
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It's perhaps Pippin's very recent realization of who Aragorn is that causes him to make this connection.
It reminds me of another similar comparison - Sam says Faramir reminds him of Gandalf. And back in Rivendell, Frodo said Aragorn reminded him of Gandalf.
Now as Pippin looks at Denethor a little more, he too is reminded of Gandalf:
[Denethor] turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two...
But soon the superficial appearance gives way to a greater insight:
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled.
I've always found these "likenesses" fascinating. Aragorn, Faramir and Denethor all have an air that reminds one of the hobbits of Gandalf. But only with Denethor do we see that the resemblance is misleading...
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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a.s.
Valinor
Mar 10 2007, 10:16pm
Post #36 of 55
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I don't think I can come up with any examples of what you are pointing out: a character who is "described" ambiguously like Strider. I'm not sure Tolkien did this to build suspense, per se, but just to fulfill the prophetic folk-saying: "All that is gold does not glitter".
All of the Rangers could be included here, those dark secretive men whom the hobbits in Bree deride without knowing their worth. What's their first description to us, in Bree? I think it's something dark and suspicious, too.
Gandalf's initial description masks some of his power (we might think he is just a magician) but isn't ambiguously bad/good.
But while Aragorn may be the only example of a character whom Tolkien deliberately describes in a misleading way to the readers, at the beginning and end of the book both Frodo and Sam belie their former descriptions. Sam, the former servant and stay-at-home body is now Mayor and generally regarded by the Shire as the hero; Frodo, the former master and as much a hero as Sam, is now regarded as pretty much a nobody.
Tolkien does this a lot, with most of his major characters: Denethor and Boromir and even Saruman are lovely to look at but deficient. Gandalf is deceptively a little old man. Galadriel can look like "just" a lovely elf-maiden.
That doesn't illustrate your point, I know. I can't think of another character (except the Rangers as a group) introduced to us readers in misleading terms except, as you say, Aragorn.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Everybody's wondering what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worried 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
No one knows for certain, and so it's all the same to me:
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
~~~~Iris DeMent
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 11 2007, 12:17am
Post #37 of 55
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The difference with Aragorn and Denethor, as I see it, is that we are given a clear initial description that implies something of the person's character, but that turns out to be misleading...
One odd thing that always strikes me in the description of Denethor is the comparison to Aragorn ... This description seems strikingly different to me from the initial one of Aragorn, with his "pale stern face" and "keen grey eyes", and yet we are invited to make the connection. I'm not sure why.
"Aragorn had a Roman nose and a craggy face?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Tolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.
Mar. 5-11: Tolkien's "Visions, Myths and Legends".
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 11 2007, 1:19am
Post #38 of 55
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I'm not sure I buy your premise.
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I would appreciate quotes of the descriptions of Aragorn and Denethor you consider misleading.
I'm not sure it is anything about Denethor's physical description that reminds him of Aragorn, but rather the "air of Numenor" Faramir mentions when he reminds Sam of Gandalf. Aragorn may or may not have a long curved nose, but he certainly has the air of Numenor, and so do Denethor and Faramir, while Boromir does not. And there is nothing misleading about the comparison of Denethor and Aragorn, unless the reader assumes, wrongly, that Numenoreans cannot break under pressure.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 11 2007, 1:23am
Post #39 of 55
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See my comment above about the "air of Numenor" which Aragorn, Faramir, and Denethor have in common.
And Saruman also reminds people of Gandalf, much more so than the others in fact, so if it is misleading in Denethor's case, it is also doubly misleading in Saruman's case.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 11 2007, 4:54am
Post #40 of 55
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the conceit that the Red Book was written by Bilbo and Frodo, then we have to realize that all characters are introduced to us by way of the knowlege that they either had at the time, or thought it important to include later when they were recording their experiences.
Aragorn appears ambiguous and possibly sinister to the Hobbits at first meeting. Not only is he a complete unknown to them in terms of character, he's also a Man, one of the first they've ever had dealings with, and a rough-looking one at that. To hobbits fresh from the domestic comforts and respectability of the Shire, he would seem even more than ordinarily intimidating. They have to take him on trust, following Frodo's instinct.
From this point in the story, the hobbits begin to meet more and more folk, of all kinds. And they begin to learn to evaluate and discern character based on a new set of criteria from that which they were used to (never had any adventures or did anything unexpected). Frodo clearly began with a head start in this area, probably absorbed from Bilbo, who had much wider experience than any other hobbit with matters outside their borders. But by the end of the story, even Pippin has learned to discern something of the character of others, not just in the face, but also in their speech and presence (the air of Numenor).
Many characters the hobbits are told about prior to meeting, and so we begin the acquaintance with a certain understanding. For instance, by the time we meet Galadriel, we've already spent time in the house of Elrond and met various other Elves, so while her Elvishness would be a basis for mistrust and fear for other peoples, it was not for the hobbits. We are aware of Saruman's treachery long before we meet him, because the hobbits heard the tale from Gandalf.
Boromir has some things in his advantage, being the official Council delegate from Gondor, but his introduction is clouded by several things. First, he appears as a rival of sorts to Aragorn. As the hobbits by this time are fast friends with Strider, that's going to be viewed with suspicion. Also, I think Frodo as the Ringbearer can feel Boromir's attraction for the Ring, even before it becomes apparent in word or action. I think his underlying unease comes through in Boromir's description. I know I never trusted him at all in the book, even later when I realized more fully who he was and that he did have some nobility in his nature. I actually got a better feel for him in the movie than the book.
Denethor, however, the hobbits have heard very little about in advance. They know he's the Steward of Gondor, and Gondor is fighting Mordor (this is good). Pippin finds out just before meeting him that he's Boromir's father (this is mostly good, since Boromir died in saving him). Pippin has learned enough of Men to distinguish the "air of Numenor" about Denethor (this also seems good). Against that, we have some hints from Gandalf that he's of a different sort from Theoden, and that Pippin should guard his tongue. But at the time when they arrive in Minas Tirith, I think even Gandalf is unsure of just how far Denethor's breakdown has progressed. We, the readers, find out along with Pippin and Gandalf.
I think that the ambiguous characters are simply those of whom the hobbits could have no prior knowledge. So they and we have to learn about them as events progress. This is very common in life, where we often meet people without any prior knowledge of their character, and then form conclusions, but I think it is not quite as common in literature, where I think that the author's bias for or against a character often creeps in before events demonstrate their nature.
Silverlode
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream:
The genius and the plan thus inspired
Depart me and I, entering a room,
Find myself on the threshold, stand still
And wonder what I came to do there.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Mar 11 2007, 8:02am
Post #42 of 55
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unless the later transcribers had any additional sources of knowledge of the people the hobbits met on their travels, I think it's safe to say that matters of personal impression and description came from the hobbits themselves. I imagine corruptions or additions by later hands would likely have more to do with "big picture" issues, such as political history, geography or language/cultural references, or with stylistic/translation changes. If later contributors had decided to embellish the descriptive language, I suspect it would be to add detail. The fact that most physical descriptions in the story are so scanty leads me to suspect that the translator(s) are dependent on a limited amount of information in the primary (hobbit authored) documents, and not adding any of their own.
Silverlode
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream:
The genius and the plan thus inspired
Depart me and I, entering a room,
Find myself on the threshold, stand still
And wonder what I came to do there.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 11 2007, 8:19am
Post #43 of 55
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for personal description? Did JRRT ever go so far in his thinking as to imagine that as an excuse for his own style? (And I wonder about Gandalf's unhelpful description of Frodo to Butterbur.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tolkien Illustrated! Jan. 29-May 20: Visit the Reading Room to discuss art by John Howe, Alan Lee, Ted Nasmith and others, including Tolkien himself.
Mar. 5-11: Tolkien's "Visions, Myths and Legends".
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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Mar 11 2007, 9:39am
Post #44 of 55
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I don't know if they have a distaste so much as possibly a disinterest. Maybe it's simply evidence of how much hobbits really do love good tilled earth and all things that grow - a society that holds gardeners in great honor, after all. I imagine that in the Shire, they rarely need (or bother) to describe each other, as they're likely to have known everyone who lives near all their lives, and would be related to half of them. Their interests lie elsewhere; mostly in their gardens and their four meals a day. Or maybe it's just that the Big Folk all tend to look alike to them.
They certainly seem to be much more precise in their descriptions of the topography and flora of their travels than anything else. When it comes to people or other creatures, such as balrogs, we get only the vaguest of descriptions, laced with "seeming", similes and metaphors for things that come entirely out of their experience, but when it comes to trees and flowers, the description is not only precise, but positively loving. This might be one reason they have such an affinity with the Elves; they also seem much more interested in the growing things around them than in those that seem more fleeting, such as the affairs of Men.
I don't think the Professor ever bothered to excuse his style; he seems to have considered himself a hobbit (I think we see a lot of him in Bilbo), or at least have modeled the Shire after the English countryside of his youth and so the hobbits' tastes and preferences reflect his own.
Gandalf's description is singularly unhelpful, the most detailed part being the cleft in Frodo's chin, so I think the key was the name of Underhill, from a Shire hobbit - and Baggins, when Frodo let that slip.
Silverlode
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream:
The genius and the plan thus inspired
Depart me and I, entering a room,
Find myself on the threshold, stand still
And wonder what I came to do there.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 11 2007, 9:50am
Post #45 of 55
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Gandalf's description of Frodo
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Do you take that to be inaccurate then? I've always assumed that that is what he really would look like, from the point of view of a Man of Bree. Of course he looks different to his fellow-hobbits, especially to Sam, who is indignant at this description - but then, Sam is the one who has no experience outside the Shire and so no sense of the "otherness" of hobbits.
As for hobbits having a distaste for personal description, perhaps it's due to the very fact that on their travels they start to understand that physical, personal details are interpreted differently in different cultures, and so they turn to giving their impressions - the "air of Numenor" and so on - instead.
(I do sense that Tolkien is essentially telling the story from the point of view of the hobbits. But he also wanted to indulge other sides of his storytelling craft, such as the Anglo-Saxon-inspired language of the battles of the Rohirrim, which he was able to account for by those later scribal additions. Still, I think the characters are meant to appear to us essentially as they do to the hobbits. And I doubt if Tolkien felt the need of this as an "excuse" for his own style - based on what he says in On Fairy Stories, I tend to think that the lack of anything but the most generalized physical description is a deliberate effect, meant to allow the reader to imagine the physical details in the way that works best for them. Whether this is because the hobbits themselves figured this out - as I suggest above - or whether it's just Tolkien's own technique, I wouldn't like to say!)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 11 2007, 10:03am
Post #46 of 55
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are common enough, as you say. And I think you're right that Aragorn's initial appearance is really to illustrate the "all that is gold does not glitter" rhyme that is attached to him.
I like what you say about Frodo and Sam, and indeed I'd thought about that when I was working through my thoughts about Aragorn and Denethor. I think really I was pushing a bit too far, trying to make a parallel between the descriptions of Aragorn and Denethor (my thought was along the lines of Denethor being the personification of the original version of the aphorism: "All that glitters is not gold"). I liked the idea, because in a way Denethor is Aragorn's foil. But there are so many pairs of characters that can be compared and contrasted (Gandalf, Frodo and Faramir can also be paralleled in various ways with Aragorn, for example), that it's perhaps dangerous to make too much of any one case.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 11 2007, 1:07pm
Post #47 of 55
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As Frodo drew near he threw back his hood, showing a shaggy head of dark hair flecked with grey, and in a pale stern face a pair of keen grey eyes.
and later
"Well, I have rather a rascally look, have I not?" said Strider with a curl of his lip and a queer gleam in his eye.
compared to:
Then the old man looked up. Pippin saw his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose between the dark deep eyes
and later
Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older.
That is, we get a physical description through the eyes of a hobbit in which we can observe clues to the "real" character (Aragorn's initial description is quite attractive, Denethor's much less so), and yet the hobbits are initially misled. Yet they soon start to see beyond the physical:
Frodo caught his glance and looked away. "No," he said slowly. "I don't agree. I think, I think you are not really as you choose to look."
Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled.
Perhaps I should admit at this point that I'm not sure I buy my own argument that there really is a pattern here. ;-) I was more or less thinking out loud - there are so many resonances in LotR, and this is just one that struck me. I'm not trying to "prove" anything, just to analyse a possible pattern that interested me. Any excuse to talk about LotR! ;-)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Half-elven
Mar 12 2007, 3:48am
Post #49 of 55
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Sorry, I still don't see these as misleading.
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Strider calling himself rascally makes me trust him more, not less. You have quoted the description of Denethor out of context; immediately after we hear about him looking like a great wizard we also perceive, through Pippin, that of course Gandalf is older, wiser, and greater despite his looks. Indeed the very fact that Denethor is challenging Gandalf made me distrust him from the first time we met him.
I don't see these introductions as any more misleading than the others I mentioned earlier in this thread. It seems to me you are trying too hard to draw a parallel between the introductions of Aragorn and Denethor, or to distinguish their introductions from all others in the book. I see a greater parallel between the introductions of Aragorn and Faramir, who both are initially set up as ominous and threatening. Indeed of the two Faramir is the more threatening, since he quite literally takes the hobbits captive and threatens them with death.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Mar 12 2007, 9:27am
Post #50 of 55
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You're certainly right, I'm sure, that Aragorn calling himself "rascally" makes us trust him more. It's obviously an assumed persona that we see through pretty quickly. The distinction I'm trying to make, between this and other introductions (such as Faramir's) is that although we, the readers, see through the deception immediately, the hobbits don't do so until a little later. This is what I think is fairly rare in LotR - that the reader is allowed to see something before the hobbits do. Usually we are as unsure as the hobbits are, and have to revise our opinions later, along with them. I'm not sure if this effect of "misled hobbit/in-the-know reader" is as rare as I claim, I just can't think of many examples.
The only one that seems to come close, for me, is Denethor's introduction. It's true that Pippin (and we) have had some warning about him, but still Pippin at least is at first awed by Denethor's "kingly, beautiful, and powerful" persona. I'm suggesting (on very flimsy evidence!) that the description that came before this, (Denethor's long curved nose and deep dark eyes) may have allowed the reader to form a different impression from Pippin's. For me, the initial description already suggests a hidden weakness of pride, just as Aragorn's initial description (the shaggy head, the keen grey eyes) seems to suggest a hidden heart of gold.
Unlike in the case of Aragorn, however, Pippin sees beyond Denethor's assumed persona immediately. And also unlike Aragorn, Denethor remains enigmatic and ambiguous, poised between good and evil, for a long time (although we are allowed to doubt Strider again briefly, through Sam, after the attack on Weathertop).
(I just re-read the introduction of Faramir, and I can't see anything resembling the physical description we get of Aragorn and Denethor that would allow us to form an impression independent of what the hobbits think. The Men remind them of Boromir, but that's still a fairly ambiguous piece of information, especially in terms of Frodo and Sam who don't know the end of Boromir's story.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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