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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
'The Fellowship of the Ring' Discussion, Chapter One: A Long-Expected Party
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a.s.
Valinor


Dec 9 2014, 12:55pm

Post #51 of 187 (2120 views)
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about those umbrellas [In reply to] Can't Post



Quote
… the rest of the chapter is spent in dealing with … Hobbits
FF. What do you think of this detailed account of the doing of the Shire?
It’s funny and a bit cartoonish. It represents a return to comic relief after the serious episode about the Ring. I suspect that episode was interpolated in a later draft, and that this section followed directly after Bilbo’s disappearance in the earlier drafts.




Hammond and Scull (LOTR Reader's Companion) say: "A list of presents given by Bilbo with humorous messages existed in the first chapter from its earliest draft; as this progressed, Tolkien changed the details several times" (I realize this doesn't actually say WHERE this list appeared in earlier drafts, what it followed or preceded in other words). They also make reference to a 1954 letter in which Tolkien says:


"...Some of the modernities found among them (I think especially of umbrellas) are probably, I think certainly, a mistake, of the same order as their silly names, and tolerable with them only as a deliberate 'anglicization' to point the contrast between them and other peoples in the most familiar terms...."

a.s.

(the rest of Letter 154 discusses some thoughts about economics in Middle Earth, I think this came up in another post but not sure where so I'm referencing it here for anyone interested. I never stop to think about how they made it work, myself.)

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 9 2014, 3:15pm

Post #52 of 187 (2101 views)
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Ditto on Frodo shock [In reply to] Can't Post

I had the same reaction the 1st time. Why's Bilbo leaving? Who's Frodo? Why should I like him? What's going on?

But I got to like Frodo more than Bilbo by the time he go to Rivendell.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 9 2014, 3:42pm

Post #53 of 187 (2068 views)
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Why's Bilbo leaving? [In reply to] Can't Post

The Ring is wearing on him. He’s been to Rivendell. He wants to have some privacy. He’s welcome at Rivendell. He’s eleventy-one. What better place to retire and finish your memoirs (and escape the SBs).

I don't recall "Frodo shock" - too many years in the past?

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



squire
Half-elven


Dec 9 2014, 4:42pm

Post #54 of 187 (2077 views)
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I can live with the umbrellas more than I can the moth balls. [In reply to] Can't Post

The former could conceivably exist in a culture that is clever with its hands, and in contact with ever cleverer inventors like the dwarves.

The latter are inconceivable without a sophisticated chemicals industry. Any prior method of moth control, such as cedar wood or aromatic herbs, could well have been written in the first place as such customs were still common in 1930s England.

It's always reassuring to read Tolkien's own criticism of his inventions and devices! We say, "oh it's just a translation." He says, it's "...a deliberate 'anglicization' to point the contrast between them and other peoples in the most familiar terms." With Tolkien, it's not about how he writes a gag, it's why.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Darkstone
Immortal


Dec 9 2014, 8:19pm

Post #55 of 187 (2068 views)
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Camphor crystals... [In reply to] Can't Post

...could be used as mothballs, assuming trade with the Middle-earth versions of Sumatra and Borneo. But in the Shire it would probably be more likely used as it is widely used today, as a food sweetener.

******************************************
"Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a wizard coming down along the road and this wizard that was coming down along the road met a nicens little hobbit named Bilbo Baggins."


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Dec 9 2014, 9:19pm

Post #56 of 187 (2056 views)
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Umbrellas [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
could conceivably exist in a culture that is clever with its hands. . . -squire


And the various uses of an umbrella in the proper hands.

1. To keep off the rain. . . (Duh!)
2. A perfect collection receptacle for wayward silver spoons.
3. A vicious whipping type weapon used to teach a ruffian or two the meaning of grief. PiratePirate

“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.”
But, sneaking off in daylight takes much more cunning.



noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 9 2014, 10:05pm

Post #57 of 187 (2063 views)
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off on a tangent: umbrellas [In reply to] Can't Post

Umbrellas seem to have a long history, but only in the orient. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 9 2014, 10:13pm

Post #58 of 187 (2061 views)
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Frodo-shock: sounds like a medical condition! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


cats16
Valinor


Dec 10 2014, 4:11am

Post #59 of 187 (2034 views)
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I'm a bit reminded of... [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo's big joke somewhat reminds me of a line from Fyodor Pavlovich in The Brothers Karamazov (I would have to read the book again to find the quote!). Paraphrased, it more or less reads to mean that he (Pavlovich) cannot be viewed as a 'fool' by the people, because he actively is the fool, thus (in his mind) placing himself above them morally: he embodies the so-called undesirable trait with so much fervor that it almost overwhelms people with its truthfulness.

It's a stretch to compare it directly to Bilbo, I'm aware. But for me, there is a resemblance in the thought process at work here. "You can't judge me for being an eccentric old hobbit: I'll prove that you can't judge me by being such an eccentric old hobbit that I'll blow your socks right off!" Or something like that.

If this is the only time I compare Fyodor Pavlovich to Bilbo Baggins, I won't bat an eye.



Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




cats16
Valinor


Dec 10 2014, 4:20am

Post #60 of 187 (2069 views)
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Quite passive-aggressive, to me! [In reply to] Can't Post

Giving a bookcase to an individual who doesn't remember to return borrowed books...that's quite a jab, to me. Yet, Tolkien's phrasing makes it all sound more lighthearted than that.

I picture the relatives on the receiving end of these gifts going through a two step process of: 1) 'that @%$#$#$ Bilbo Bagg---', to *wife of said hobbit walks in* 2) 'Well you *do* need something to put all of those books in, Mr. Brandybuck!'

So, while certainly a jab on Bilbo's part, I get the impression that despite the received offense, the gifts were still applicable in the end.



Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




Kerewyn
Rohan


Dec 10 2014, 12:31pm

Post #61 of 187 (2064 views)
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Coming in late-ish with just a small selection of answers... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey all. I’m a movie-firster who is reading LOTR for only the second time in full, during this discussion. (though I have often dipped into parts). So I am still learning much, and doubt I can contribute anything terribly note-worthy. But taking part seems utterly worthwhile Smile

Why choose the Shire as a starting point?
A party is a good way to introduce the story, as an event that brings many characters together, introduces their attitudes, their society, and sets the scene for the first piece of action, Bilbo’s disappearance.

What do you think of the call-backs to the events of The Hobbit?
I read LOTR before reading The Hobbit, so when call-backs occurred, they were as vague to me as a history that I hadn’t yet learnt. But I wonder how more mysterious the ring might seem if I hadn’t read about his finding it, in the Prologue “Concerning Hobbits.” Or perhaps it would seem less important, because I didn’t know its background. Apparently the prologue was added to later editions? (Which means earlier readers of FOTR would be plunged right into the Party chapter, with only TH, or nothing, to inform them?)


Why such an interest in the scenery before the action begins? What are your thought on the Shire itself?
It helps create a familiarity, appeal and fondness, ensuring hobbits are relatable to us. Tolkien’s depiction of an idealised ‘Englishy’ rural lifestyle may have been quite compelling to many of his contemporary readers, even though industrialisation was already destroying an England that once was.
I also think Tolkien just loved family trees and setting up these relationships. Not sure where he was at with the Silmarillion at the time he wrote this, but it’s also packed with family ties. Here, they are made a little more ‘human’, and set up the concepts of family and neighbourhood ‘tribalism’ that are closer to our own lives.

What about his (Frodo’s) childhood in Brandy Hall? Why do you think he was willing to leave his friends? Is this special upbringing necessary to prepare him for his later role as a hero?
I wonder if, as an orphan in Brandy Hall, Frodo had to quickly become independent, drawn into a big group of hobbit children, but receiving no special parenting. In spite of probably enjoying living there to some degree, Bilbo’s adoption may have given him the attention and guidance that was however missing. If he were too pampered earlier on, he may never have felt a sense of ‘apartness’ which would later make a bachelor and adventurer of him. Kinda like the nerdy child who is ignored at school, and learns he doesn’t need to run with the pack.

Why do you think Gandalf made them? Why practise the art? Is it a hobby to relax?
Gandalf is ‘a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor’, and can dial up a spark on his staff when needed. Fire is pretty much a specialty, it seems, and I imagine creating fireworks is the ‘hobby’ side of his study.

What is your favourite part of the party?
My favourite part of the party is not so much a certain moment of it, but the touch of humour, gently poking fun at the Shire folk, their love of food and intolerance of anything too different. Eg. “gardeners came by arrangement, and removed in wheel-barrows those that had inadvertently remained behind.”… “and the uneaten food (a very small item).”


Bilbo, the hero of the day, then mounts a chair and makes his speech to those gathered in the tent.

Do you think he ever felt confined and exasperated at the ignorant hobbits and their petty ways?
As a movie-firster, it’s hard to divorce my thoughts from how Ian Holm’s Bilbo introduces hobbit society with a condescending but fond head-shaking tone. I’m looking in this chapter for something that conveys the same … and I think it’s there in his gently snarky labelling of the gifts that are left behind. It’s probable that only Frodo and Gandalf would have heard Bilbo venting his true exasperation.

Do you think Bilbo chose the year that Frodo ‘came of age’, so that he could inherit Bag End legally? Have his plans been put on hold, waiting for this day and the right time?
Seems like a good landmark and the ideal time for everything – Frodo’s inheritance and his disappearance knowing Bag End is in good hands. All very tidy really, and including his own milestone birthday allows him to celebrate and disappear ‘in style’. Good planning. Bilbo says to Gandalf that he feels old and stretched too thin, so likely he has been feeling this way for a while and holding out for Frodo’s coming of age.

The line about feeling ‘stretched too thin’ has always resonated with me, as my grandmother said the same thing in the months before her passing. (side note: we played ‘Into the West’ at her funeral.)



"Then the bells shall ring in gladness at the Mountain King's return... but all shall fail in sadness, and the lake will shine and burn."


a.s.
Valinor


Dec 10 2014, 1:26pm

Post #62 of 187 (2060 views)
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The fireworks had "Elvish runes" [In reply to] Can't Post



In Reply To
Why do you think Gandalf made them? Why practise the art? Is it a hobby to relax?
Gandalf is ‘a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor’, and can dial up a spark on his staff when needed. Fire is pretty much a specialty, it seems, and I imagine creating fireworks is the ‘hobby’ side of his study.







I am pretty sure Gandalf didn't create the fireworks, as they are marked by Elvish runes. Possibly he supervised or directed or designed them and then they were forged in the Rivendell Fireworks Factory (or something).


I also don't think Tolkien ever explicitly states how the wizards staffs "worked" or why they had them, or what they could or could not do with them. I don't think they were needed by Istari to "do magic". I don't think Gandalf, who wore the Ring of Fire, needed his staff in other words, to call up fire.


Of course, why Gandalf chose fireworks as a hobby, I have not a clue! Possibly just in case someone saw an odd fire or two around him, he could always use his "hobby" as an excuse.


Cool


a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




a.s.
Valinor


Dec 10 2014, 1:42pm

Post #63 of 187 (2073 views)
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PS: welcome and [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I have been away quite awhile and am just joining in this book discussion, so I feel odd saying "welcome to the RR". LOL. Seems like a nice bunch here now, and I'm sure someone will do a better job of welcoming newcomers.


But my answer to your post might have been seen as a challenge or correction, and so I don't want it to seem that way. Just an attempt to converse!


I love to read "movie firster" and also "first time reader" responses!


anyhow...did not want to seem rude on my first foray back to the RR myself! Cool


a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 10 2014, 2:15pm

Post #64 of 187 (2058 views)
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Or Frodo-shock could be a hobbit metallica band. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sador
Half-elven


Dec 10 2014, 2:43pm

Post #65 of 187 (2084 views)
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So it begins... [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't know how much I will be able to follow these discussions. I'll try.
Just short answers (hopefully, I'll get to the next post tomorrow):

What do you think of these plot developments?

I like reading them very much - not because I think I would have liked the subsequent book had they been followed (probably less than the existing one), but because I really love the time of literary archaeology, tracing the thought processes of the author.
I really enjoy HoME - although for different reasons than most people who do so.

Could you see the tale being as popular if it included older plot-lines?
Unlikely, but who can tell? Tolkien for sure had his share of not-so-great ideas, but he might have developed some to a really good book.
But if he hadn't got stuck, perhaps the book would have already been published in the 1940s, and received a quite different reception... it would probably have been a different book, too.
Instead of speculating, let's be thankful with what we've got.

Do you see The Lord of the Rings as a sequel to The Hobbit?
Yes, of course. The challange is to read The Hobbit and remember that it is not by any means a prequel to The Lord of the Rings.

What parallels and/or contrasts to The Hobbit do you find in the first chapter?
For one thing, we get to see hobbits and the Shire.
In The Hobbit, we assume that Bilbo is both a prototype (when he is fussy and contemptible) and an exception (when the Tookish part takes over); but here we actually get to see a few examples of the spieces, and can make up our minds for ourselves. Also, we get to know the land - something we did not in The Hobbit.
Identifying with both the simple, rural folk of Middle-earth and with the land itself, is critical for our with the book. We do not want Sauron to be defeated merely because the author wants us to root for Gandalf - but because we care. And we couldn't care that much for just an individual hero of a strange, alien race.

And parallels - well, Darkstone has listed them ably.


Darkstone
Immortal


Dec 10 2014, 3:11pm

Post #66 of 187 (2052 views)
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Welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice thoughts! Looking forward to your future participation!

It helps create a familiarity, appeal and fondness, ensuring hobbits are relatable to us. Tolkien’s depiction of an idealised ‘Englishy’ rural lifestyle may have been quite compelling to many of his contemporary readers, even though industrialisation was already destroying an England that once was.

Yes. As a result I've heard it claimed that only English readers could fully appreciate LOTR.


As a movie-firster, it’s hard to divorce my thoughts from how Ian Holm’s Bilbo introduces hobbit society with a condescending but fond head-shaking tone.

That can be a problem, and not just the Jackson films. My image of Gandalf will always be from the 1977 Rankin-Bass production The Hobbit, along with John Huston's magnificent voice. (And for me Richard Boone remains the best Smaug.) Indeed, it's just about impossibe to divorce one's conceptualizations from the many movies, illustrations, radio plays, etc, produced over the years, so don't worry about it.Smile


The line about feeling ‘stretched too thin’ has always resonated with me, as my grandmother said the same thing in the months before her passing.

My sympathies.


(side note: we played ‘Into the West’ at her funeral.)

How sweet!Smile

******************************************
"Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a wizard coming down along the road and this wizard that was coming down along the road met a nicens little hobbit named Bilbo Baggins."


noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 10 2014, 6:06pm

Post #67 of 187 (2037 views)
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"Any dwarves will do" - dwarves, songs, Checkov's Gun, a hidden pony, a will - various thoughts on Bilbo's escape plan [In reply to] Can't Post

"Any dwarves will do" - has me humming a tune from Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat Smile

More seriously ....
I agree we don't need to worry about those dwarves (unless imagining something about them is fun, of course). I don't myself agree with Checkov's gun theory:


Quote
"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."
Anton Chekhov (From S. Shchukin, Memoirs. 1911.), quoted, and used to name a "trope" in
http://tvtropes.org/...php/Main/ChekhovsGun


As that reference goes on to explain sometimes a little detail will turn out to be important later - at other times it never does & perhaps was only added to give a sense of verisimilitude: of "I could tell you more if I only had the time" Personally I think the dwarves are not a Checkov's Gun (if you see what I mean...)

I think that Bilbo is consciously re-creating some of his departure from Bag End on his 'other adventure' - so yes, dwarves are definitely needed. Doesn't Bilbo make it over to Erebor and Dale (I think that's what he tells Frodo when they meet later) - maybe the dwarves are headed the same way and so entirely logical travelling companions for that reason as well?

I was going to suggest an inconsistency between (on the one hand) Bilbo saying to Gandalf that he is leaving everything to Frodo 'except a few oddments' and (on the other hand) the dwarves 'having been busy' and agreeing that 'everything is packed and labelled'. But I have it now - they have been working on Bilbo's joke presents!

There is, in any case a contrast between Bilbo's departure now and him running out of the house without his handkerchief to join Thorin many years ago. In LOTR, travellers toil across realistic-seeming landscapes, often in bad weather: we often hear in some detail about their packing. So I like to think that Bilbo had a reasonable amount of baggage - a big pack or a pony maybe. But he might want to collect that from somewhere away from the party scene - he's trying to escape in secret of course.

One final random thought - why has Bilbo made out a will and why is it this document which is produced to settle the Sackville-Bagginses claim to Bag End? Has Bilbo declared himself legally dead? Is that symbolic - or have I just shot myself with Checkov's Gun*? A will seems odd though. Bilbo wants to transfer Bag End and its contents legally to Frodo (and to do so very carefully when he knows there is a family dispute) - but a will would be a strange legal tool with which to do this, I believe: wouldn't it be open to the attack that Bilbo cannot be proved to be dead and that therefore the will is not yet in effect? I'd have thought that Bilbo might do better to write and sign a witnessed document to the effect that he is giving Bag End etc. to Frodo as a gift.

Any lawyers here willing to ponder this (pro bono, of course Wink )

*
"Bang, bang, bang, bang, goes off Checkov's Gun,
So run NoWiz, run NoWiz, run, run, run!"
...darn it, the earworms are getting worse....

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


Dec 10 2014, 6:17pm

Post #68 of 187 (2048 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Bilbo is consciously re-creating some of his departure from Bag End on his 'other adventure' - so yes, dwarves are definitely needed. Doesn't Bilbo make it over to Erebor and Dale (I think that's what he tells Frodo when they meet later) - maybe the dwarves are headed the same way and so entirely logical travelling companions for that reason as well?

`I got here [Rivendell] without much adventure,' he said, `and after a rest I went on with the dwarves to Dale: my last journey.'
-Many Meetings

******************************************
"Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a wizard coming down along the road and this wizard that was coming down along the road met a nicens little hobbit named Bilbo Baggins."


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 10 2014, 7:14pm

Post #69 of 187 (2041 views)
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I saw it as a bit sharp, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hobbits are pack-rats by nature. Though shocked and possibly incensed by the sudden disappearance, that did not feel it wrong to indulge in more food at the Party. I'm sure they put up a show of offence, then expressed some sentiment such as,' Well....we'd better not waste it.' I think Lobelia's reaction as written, gives us the most offended reaction: "..but she took them anyway' (Or some such phrase).

On the whole, I think it comes across more humourously than aught else (as intended), but upon closer scrutiny, more malice can be detected

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 10 2014, 7:27pm

Post #70 of 187 (2064 views)
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Most excellent points!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

...The challenge is to read The Hobbit and remember that it is not by any means a prequel to The Lord of the Rings.

Yes! This! I think that many have been exposed to LotR first, (perhaps through the films) and expected more of the same from The Hobbit. On the other hand, if one has read The Hobbit, it is so different from LotR that I don't believe it the best preparation for reading LotR. The styles are so different, and there are plenty of people who love one, but not the other.

This I why I differ from some people I know who suggest that one must first read The Hobbit, LotR, or The Silmarillion before the others. The arguments I hear from some is that TH is 'the first book' or 'written first' so it must be read first. Others say that since TH is a 'prequel', the main work, i.e. Lotr, should be read first. Yet others say that the Sil deals with the First Age, and to get a complete historical picture, one must start there. Everyone is different, and the 'best reading order' will be different for each of them.

In The Hobbit, we assume that Bilbo is both a prototype... and an exception...; but here we actually get to see a few examples of the species, and can make up our minds for ourselves. Also, we get to know the land - something we did not in The Hobbit....

As stated earlier, I am amazed that once I read TH, I did not enquire too much into Bilbo's antecedents. I suppose we were whisked off and away so quickly that we never thought to ask what hobbits were like. This chapter fills out the picture of the Shire (Not named until now I think?) nicely. It gave me my first impression of hobbits and the most information outside author's notes and letters.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


squire
Half-elven


Dec 10 2014, 7:41pm

Post #71 of 187 (2052 views)
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I thought of the incongruity of the will also [In reply to] Can't Post

It came to me for the first time, during this discussion which is my fourth or fifth LotR discussion in the Reading Room. Never abandon ship, is the moral; there's always another detail in Tolkien.

The best I can do is speculate that the Shire had the equivalent of a living will, or a transfer-of-property custom that was so modeled on the example of a will, that hobbits used the term for both documents.

Weak, I know. But there's nothing about Bilbo being declared legally dead less than a day after his disappearance; as we know from The Hobbit, such a proceeding would take about a year. (In that book Bilbo returns on June 22 to find his possessions being auctioned off and the S-B's preparing to move in, as he is the "late Bilbo Baggins". I think I read somewhere that that was supposed to be one year after he left with the dwarves. Interestingly, The Hobbit says it took many years for him to get himself declared alive again - oddly, far longer than it took to knock him off, so to speak.)

So "I demand to see the will" is absurd; what Lobelia means is "I demand to see legal proof that Bilbo has transferred Bag End to you as new owner." But as with several other bloopers in this chapter, one wonders if this scene was once written differently, with Bilbo properly killed off or something??



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 10 2014, 7:44pm

Post #72 of 187 (2049 views)
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Wonderful thoughts! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Bilbo is consciously re-creating some of his departure from Bag End on his 'other adventure' - so yes, dwarves are definitely needed. Doesn't Bilbo make it over to Erebor and Dale (I think that's what he tells Frodo when they meet later) - maybe the dwarves are headed the same way and so entirely logical travelling companions for that reason as well?

SPOILERS!!!!!!ShockedTongue(Jumping ahead a few chapters, eh????Wink) Yes, I think he did go to Erebor and Dale, I have that same
recollection. Great thoughts in comparing Bilbo's two adventures. Bilbo himself seems to recognise the similarities:

'On the road with Dwarves again!' (Horrible paraphrasing, mineCrazy)

Perhaps he was trying to recreate the excitement and distraction of his first adventure so that he could take his mind off the Ring? Maybe he thought that the wandering would fill the emptiness he had inside.

My question though, (Jumping ahead, I know) is how Bilbo got to Rivendell? Unless the animosity between Elf and Dwarf had changed much, it would be quite out of the ordinary for the dwarves to be allowed into Rivendell, (I got the impression that the Dwarves present for The Council of Elrond were an exception. I could be wrong, and we have that chapter ahead of us to discuss it.) or for them to be willing to take him there. Maybe they accompanied him out of friendship?

I was going to suggest an inconsistency between (on the one hand) Bilbo saying to Gandalf that he is leaving everything to Frodo 'except a few oddments' and (on the other hand) the dwarves 'having been busy' and agreeing that 'everything is packed and labelled'. But I have it now - they have been working on Bilbo's joke presents!

Ah! I never thought of that! I wonder if they appreciated the jokes?


One final random thought - why has Bilbo made out a will and why is it this document which is produced to settle the Sackville-Bagginses claim to Bag End?'

Perhaps he had decided never to return and his conversation with Gandalf, "I don't think I'll ever return", was a statement, more for us than Gandalf. If so, he could be proclaiming himself dead. Isn't that what his neighbors thought after his first adventure?

Another thought, It could be a veiled jibe toward the Shire Hobbits or an extra precaution he has taken.

'So you thought I was dead last time I left, eh?? I'll leave a will and make it official this time so that you don't get up another auction!'

or

'Silly hobbits! They will think I'm dead, so I'd better put it all in writing so that Dear Frodo doesn't have to deal with a scene such I had upon my return.'


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 10 2014, 7:46pm

Post #73 of 187 (2035 views)
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Yes, I thought so... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I begin to wonder who accompanied him to Rivendell?

(Skips ahead more than a few chapters)

Isn't Rivendell hidden? Would Dwarves go ear it, or even be allowed? Maybe wood-elves from Thranduil helped him?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


cats16
Valinor


Dec 10 2014, 8:03pm

Post #74 of 187 (2052 views)
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Perhaps... [In reply to] Can't Post

My thought would be either Elves such as Gildor who are heading West, or even Elves leaving Rivendell itself. I don't know of how often groups left for the Havens, but if Frodo came across some, I suppose Bilbo could have.

Doesn't Gildor make some reference to Bilbo on the road? Or am I imagining that one?

*remembers FOTR is sitting two feet from my current position* Hold on, opening the book now. Cool



Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




(This post was edited by cats16 on Dec 10 2014, 8:06pm)


noWizardme
Valinor


Dec 10 2014, 8:04pm

Post #75 of 187 (2028 views)
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"On the road [ with dwarves] again.... " You're doing this earworm thing on purpose :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

..."on the road again" Canned Heat (or Willie Nelson, if you prefer).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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