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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 10:34am
Post #51 of 101
(668 views)
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'Is this a fundamentally Catholic work?', asked Pippin, staring out of it with wonder.
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'I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves. 'It is a fair work, and the writing is good, for it was made by a superbly talented author. It is a work by someone who felt he was fundamentally a Catholic, if that is what you mean. Devotion to self-sacrifice and public duty, honest faith in a higher world to come, and a belief that one's fate is the hands of a caring entity - those are there. And also the beauty of the countryside, and the pleasure of fine ale and a pipe with friends. The tale has all those; for he put the thought of all that he loved into what he made...' The elf broke off in a fit of sneezing. 'I do beg your forgiveness,' he continued. 'I seem to be developing an allegory..."
(And I beg forgiveness from Squire for nicking a list of Catholic - but not uniquely Catholic - virtues from his earlier post in this thread.  )
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Lissuin
Valinor
Jun 8 2014, 11:03am
Post #52 of 101
(649 views)
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This from the man who said, "I think I'd also become "old and wary enough to detect [allegory's] presence": and the sense of thumping allegory has put me off C S Lewis ever since...."
(still L-ingOL )
Cheers
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 12:36pm
Post #53 of 101
(637 views)
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Where's the like button when you need one? ;) //
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“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau
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EomundDaughter
Lorien
Jun 8 2014, 1:13pm
Post #54 of 101
(647 views)
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We really missed the opportunity
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when Tolkien, the most popular author in history, was still alive and with us to record/film interviews with him about his books.
So many questions would be answered.....
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 2:08pm
Post #55 of 101
(630 views)
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What's scarier is that my autocorrect has got so inured to my Tolkien typing that autocorrects Tolkien terms INTO what I'm writing :) //
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~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 8 2014, 2:35pm
Post #56 of 101
(625 views)
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He said : " is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work'...
I fail to see how he could have been clearer?
I'm no preacher or a politician…
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DaughterofLaketown
Gondor
Jun 8 2014, 2:53pm
Post #58 of 101
(645 views)
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Tolkien would not have lied. He must have just been somewhat confused as to what he himself intended.
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 3:40pm
Post #60 of 101
(624 views)
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'And no one can talk to a horse...'
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As NoWizardMe points out in his excellent and fully-thought-out post, Tolkien's reassuringly clear expression "of course" must modify "fundamentally" as much as it does "religious and Catholic". And "fundamentally" ("at the bottom, beginning, underneath") invites the reader to understand what Tolkien says next in the same letter - with equal clarity:
I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion',...in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put... For as a matter of fact, I have consciously planned very little; and should chiefly be grateful for having been brought up ... in a Faith that has ... taught me all the little that I know." - (JRRT, Letter 142, 1953) If we must conduct a war of Tolkien 'quotes for clarity', I doubt the author will be helping us as much as we should like. But I find his 'fundamentally a religious and Catholic work' remark to be no more clear than this comment from the same period:
Certainly [The Lord of the Rings] has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion'....It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'....I am in any case myself a Christian; but the 'Third Age' was not a Christian world. - JRRT, Letter 165, 1955 (italics in the original).
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2014, 3:46pm
Post #61 of 101
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The word 'rite' in the way you are spelling it, does not have the meaning that you ascribe to it (unless you are punning). The word that you want is 'right'.
Go on about your business. Nothing to see here.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 8 2014, 3:48pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 3:53pm
Post #62 of 101
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I'm not sure I can help you then, SaulComposer
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You present that it is paradoxical that Tolkien has said both:
1) "I have a cordial dislike of allegory", and;
2) "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work"
The paradox works only if there is no other way that The Lord of the Rings could be a fundamentally religious and Catholic work except by being an allegory.
That doesn't work at all for me, because it requires one to insist upon using particular meanings and interpretations of "allegory" and "fundamentally" to preserve your paradox, and to be immune to any reasoning or evidence from the text showing those meanings are not actually the ones intended.
In fact, I don't think that LOTR is an allegory as Tolkien defines in in the context of his allegory quote, and I don't think it has to be an allegory to be a "fundamentally religious and Catholic work" in Tolkien's mind (this would appear to be the majority position here). I have explained my reasoning for both points, referencing Tolkien himself, and can help no further if your only reaction is that "you fail to see how he could have been clearer". Nor can I see how I could be any clearer.
I'm afraid your paradox is of your own artificial construction, rather than anything which sheds light upon Tolkien and his works. So it is not something I'm particularly interested to discuss further , especially as it seems you are obdurately going to stick to the particular and peculiar definitions which make your paradox work, and without which it immediately resolves. I'm not sure what you are looking for from this discussion. If you want to resolve your paradox, we have shown you how to; but it appears that you prefer the paradox to the resolution,and only become frustrated by our attempts to help you solve it.
Such artificial paradoxes are easy enough to construct and defend the same methods you have used. We might as well have an amusing one. How about insisting that Gandalf's famous parting remark to the Fellowship - "fly, you fools!" -clearly indicates that the Fellowship can fly, and therefore is inconsistent with the fact that they get to Mordor merely by walking and boating?
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 8 2014, 4:21pm
Post #63 of 101
(618 views)
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Tolkien said something very clear, in fact its crystal clear, and I believe him. Based on that, if we apply his statement to what he actually did, then there is a paradox. I just don't get it? the man can't make a mistake? is he not human?
He said one thing, and did another, wow the world stopped its rotating course on its axis?
Why can't the man be treated like the human he was, brilliant but prone to human error? intelligent but imperfect?
I'm no preacher or a politician…
(This post was edited by SaulComposer on Jun 8 2014, 4:22pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 4:58pm
Post #64 of 101
(608 views)
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Then you've answered your own question. Congratulations.
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SaulComposer's question:
I found this quote from one of Tolkien's letters, where he writes the following:
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism"....
Source: Letters, no. 142.
There was all this talk in here and other Tolkien related sites pushing the notion that Tolkien disliked allegory, but this letter proves clearly otherwise, so what is going on, what is the truth about this matter?
SaulComposer's answer, 63 posts later:
He said one thing, and did another
Not a the only possible answer, and probably the least interesting one, but if that is the answer that satisfies you, then I'm glad to have been of service.
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Terazed
Bree
Jun 8 2014, 7:26pm
Post #65 of 101
(615 views)
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One sense of "fundamentally" means "at base or core". Tolkien might be saying that his story is a tree which has religious and catholic roots: I don't myself see that this logically must mean that it would have visible religious or Catholic leaves and flowers. That might explain the conundrum. The rest of the quote is worth examining too "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism"....
Source: Letters, no. 142. (my emphasis) Which seems a bit odd - wait; the story is so religious that it contains no religion? I note that in another letter (#131 to Milton Waldman, in which Tolkien tries to summarise his writings) he explains why the Arthurian world was not the kind of thing he wanted to write. The reasons include: "For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion.
For reasons which I will not elaborate [darn!! - nWm], that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the 'real' world."
Perhaps a quote from someone else who ran into this conundrum in his own work might be helpful.
One might say that where Religion becomes artificial, it is reserved for Art to save the spirit of religion by recognizing the figurative value of the mythic symbols which the former would have us believe in their literal sense, and revealing their deep and hidden truth through an ideal presentation.
Obviously it was written be a different person (Wagner) with different ideas about religion but it does cut to the chase on how one could present a fundamentally religious work without allegory. The idea is that one would take the fundamental meanings found in religion and strip them completely from their associated symbols and present them in an idealized form. The result is a work where you explore the fundamental meaning of Christ dying on the cross for our sins or what it means to receive the sacrament of communion without the traditional allegorical symbols under which they can get lost. It takes it out of the conscious realm and puts it into the realm of feeling and the subconscious. In other words it focuses on feelings that religion creates in the religious person that go beyond the words and symbols and without getting bogged down by those words and symbols. What is eucatastrophy? It is a feeling that you get in the heart. It is not a dry definition in a dictionary.
It is a hard concept to wrap your mind around and I am not sure I am making it clear.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 7:51pm
Post #66 of 101
(574 views)
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Crystal clear, to me at least. Thanks!
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The idea is that one would take the fundamental meanings found in religion and strip them completely from their associated symbols and present them in an idealized form.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2014, 8:43pm
Post #67 of 101
(598 views)
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So (to switch composers randomly because I don't know much Wagner) you can listen to "Fingal's Cave" and get an impression of a cave. Or possibly an impression of something else entirely, according to your own experience and mind. It's beside the point to ask which precise bars or notes represent the cave, or which bits of the cave they represent. Or to ask how they come they don't represent the woods behind your Granny's house, when it seems perfectly clear to you that they do this perfectly.
~~~~~~
"… ever let your aim be to come at truth, not to conquer your opponent. So you never shall be at a loss in losing the argument, and gaining a new discovery.”
Arthur Martine
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien
Jun 9 2014, 2:11am
Post #68 of 101
(563 views)
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here's why we are at an impasse
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You insist that because Tolkien said LOTR is "fundamentally Catholic/Christian" that it must be an allegory, despite evidence (previously explained in this thread) to the contrary that Tolkien did not want LOTR to be considered an allegory.
People in this thread aren't disputing that Tolkien was influenced and inspired by religious themes. They disagree that the existence of religious themes in LOTR makes it an allegory. Nobody is saying Tolkien wanted LOTR to be a Godless, secular book, although earlier you did say: "Some people might have a major problem with Tolkien's Works been of a Religious inspired origin, and that's why I suspect they insist that Tolkien rejected Allegory."
An allegory is a very specific device. Not every piece of art with religious implications is an allegory. This might sound like semantics but it is an important distinction; a distinction that does not deny the influence of religion on Tolkien, however. Nor should it detract from your enjoyment.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 9 2014, 2:38am
Post #69 of 101
(545 views)
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(From the "Old Boards", where we could "moderate" (rate) posts up (positive) or down (negative, Admins please note possible problem).)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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Terazed
Bree
Jun 9 2014, 2:39am
Post #70 of 101
(537 views)
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So (to switch composers randomly because I don't know much Wagner) you can listen to "Fingal's Cave" and get an impression of a cave. Or possibly an impression of something else entirely, according to your own experience and mind. It's beside the point to ask which precise bars or notes represent the cave, or which bits of the cave they represent. Or to ask how they come they don't represent the woods behind your Granny's house, when it seems perfectly clear to you that they do this perfectly.
Yes that is correct. A composer, and an author as well, can take the concept of a cave and distill it down to an essence. That essence would be the feelings of excitement, wonder, awe, perhaps a little fear that one might feel while exploring a cave along with the illusions and dreams that go along with being in a poorly lit space. You are right it would be incorrect to talk about what note or phrase represents what. It is about feeling the emotions in themselves without intermediaries or preconceived notions.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 9 2014, 2:52am
Post #71 of 101
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tolkien stated he disliked allegory...
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tolkien stated he disliked allegory....
...but
in letter #3.14 (to othaniel c. marsh) he stated his favorite dinosaur was the allegorasaurus.
i cannot -- for all the stars in varda's heavens -- resolve those two statements.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 9 2014, 9:10am
Post #72 of 101
(539 views)
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He was also not fond of French food
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Robbing his family of the bliss of crepes, cheese fondue, and chocolate mousse. Surely he relented on that one too?
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SaulComposer
Rohan
Jun 9 2014, 3:31pm
Post #73 of 101
(515 views)
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You insist that because Tolkien said LOTR is "fundamentally Catholic/Christian" that it must be an allegory, despite evidence (previously explained in this thread) to the contrary that Tolkien did not want LOTR to be considered an allegory.
People in this thread aren't disputing that Tolkien was influenced and inspired by religious themes. They disagree that the existence of religious themes in LOTR makes it an allegory. Nobody is saying Tolkien wanted LOTR to be a Godless, secular book, although earlier you did say: "Some people might have a major problem with Tolkien's Works been of a Religious inspired origin, and that's why I suspect they insist that Tolkien rejected Allegory."
An allegory is a very specific device. Not every piece of art with religious implications is an allegory. This might sound like semantics but it is an important distinction; a distinction that does not deny the influence of religion on Tolkien, however. Nor should it detract from your enjoyment.
And I have provided ample evidence both by reason and quotation from Wikipedia that has a more elaborative definition of that word. We are in disagreement because you refuse to accept that definition of wikipedia and I do. And this disagreement has broader implications to every word, do we consider every word definite and distinct or prone to multiple meanings depending on context.
Yes Apple means a specific fruit, but 'The Big Apple' doesn't mean a big fruit it's a universal slang of New York City...
I'm no preacher or a politician…
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Jun 9 2014, 5:42pm
Post #74 of 101
(502 views)
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“Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake.” - Henry David Thoreau
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 9 2014, 5:54pm
Post #75 of 101
(515 views)
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[ scene -- tolkien breakfast table, on a cursed saturday morning ]
"crepes!!! who said they wanted crepes?!!!!! it's cram --- or nothing!!!!"
sometimes it's best not to know too much about those we admire.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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I agree - very helpful!
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