Morwen then ponders the advisability of sending Turin away the foster at Doriath, but she loathes the idea of living on the charity of anyone else, so she delays. This is a decisive point in Turin's life, and we are told that by this action, the first strand of his fate is woven.

Why is this decision, or its timing, so important?

Morgoth then tries to break Hurin by a series of tortures, then offering rewards for his betrayl of Turgon, but he refuses in scorn. Then setting Hurin on the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth, he threatens his family and in his wrath, curses them.
Hurin really shows a high level of physical and psychological tolerance here in defying torture and the very prescence of Morgoth, but does his apparent lack of concern for his family seem strange? Is he simply resigned to the fact that if Morgoth wants to kill them all, he will? Or is he secure in the fact that they will never betray Turgon because of their ignorance? He really is 'Steadfast' here, like an immovable rock, but it seems like he is being a little hard-hearted here. I think its a matter of Hurin's ideas of loyalty; his removal and distance from his human family life, and his intimate involvement with the causes of the Elves have made him an invaulable warrior and confederate. I don't think you can fully have one or the other, to the almost superhuman and heroic extent that Hurin does.


BTW, Hurin being set on a huge mound of decaying bodies...Yech!!! Is Tolkien trying to make us gag? First clinging, severed hands, now a hill of bodies? Almost Biblical in its graphic descriptions of battle and its ultimate aftermath: mass death and decay. But then so are many of the Northern tales. Not for the faint of heart!


After uttering his curse, Hurin and Morgoth engage in a debate as to the efficacy of it. Morgoth promises that his hate would follow Hurin's family wherever they go, but Hurin counters that his permanent incarnate form hinders his reach. Morgoth points to the vast amount of inherent power he possesses, but at the same time discredits the notion of interference from the West. Hurin assuredly states the supremacy of Manwe, but Morgoth boasts of his own position as,'first and mightiest', also claiming creative power over Arda and an intimate linkage of the world to his will.
The first part of this exchange seems to be bluster and intimidation on Morgoth's part, and it gains size as the dialogue continues. He may well be powerful, but by exalting his position as a Vala, then decrying the Valar's power as a whole, seems to be an open faced lie. 'I am a great power, but all the rest of them combined cannot help you!' Yeah....right. He increases his hubris by claiming that he 'made' the world. What do you think? Is there any truth in what he says? In Hurin's counters, is this the influence of the lore he has gained from the Noldo, how well does it serve him?
Hurin goes on to make a bold declaration, unbased on Noldorin lore. He asserts that Morgoth will never win over Men. Even in death they defy him; going somewhere he cannot. Morgoth replies in a nihilistic manner, that there is no escape for Men in Arda nothing beyond it for them. Hurin denies this, but Morgoth asserts that it is true, and says he can prove it.

Interesting in light of the Athrabeth. Hurin holds onto hope here - along with the newer lore (to men) that the Elves have taught him. Perhaps this hope is what gives him the deep resolve he has, to defy Morgoth? If he has hope of something past Arda for Men, then death loses its sting for him, and for everyone; at least, in this early moment of defiance and before the tragedy plays out. So is Hurin like unstained hope, before being beset by hardship and loss?

It is this hope of Hurin's that Morgoth seems to attack most fiercely, I think...he has that desire to have Men be nihilists ans thus be only concerned with the Here and Now; a way for him to control their reactions more, and to tempt with earthly payoffs (that, mind you, he never seems to pay anyway) in light of 'nothing' hereafter.


Where does this inspiration come from? Eru? The Valar? His own people's lore? Is Morgoth lying about what is beyond Arda? He has seen the Timeless Halls and the Void, and they are beyond Arda. Is this what he speaks of as 'Nothing' or something else? Can Morgoth really prove his claims? I think the concepts of "I don't know" and therefore "nothing" may be the same in Morgoth's mind. He sees himself as a world author; and I do not think in his resentment of Eru he cannot get past the 'unknown'. To do so is admitting subservience. So though it may trouble his mind, the answer of 'nothing' is the answer that saves his face and also denies hope to Men. And I think he may want to believe 'nothing' versus 'Eru has hidden it from me.'

The proving of his claim is, *I think*, the destruction of hope maybe? If Hurin, strapped to the chair, is buoyed by hope, is the breaking of that hope the cost that the soul will pay for watching the suffering he will see?

Hey, Rem, you remembered about COH without prodding from Brethil. Cool! :)

Accurate vision plays a big role in Middle-earth, doesn't it? Bombadil, wholly good, could see Frodo while invisible, and the Ring couldn't make him invisible. Gandalf says to himself about Frodo: "He may become like a glass filled with clear light for eyes to see that can." Galadriel tells Frodo that his vision and perception are increased from having worn the One and seen Sauron's Eye. Good people see things clearly, and see more than others do, while bad people distort your perception of reality.

Morwen did not gainsay him; for in Húrin’s company the hopeful ever seemed the more likely.

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Quick answer: I think this pertains to the conversation Morwen & Hurin had about what to do if the war goes badly he impresses on her "but do not delay!" (Fatherly concern here, or some premonition/ help from the Valar??) But here she is, delaying- either because of pride, because of the curse (it doesn't seem like she's assessing the situation & deciding the plans she & Hurin made aren't valid any longer : it's that she can't quite go through with it).

Superlative chapter lead off, Rem: I need to go away & re-read to think about all these interesting questions!!

What are your thoughts so far? Do you consider this view as canon, or simply commentary by Christopher?

Further on in the Introduction, this is said:

"In the tale of Turin... the curse of Morgoth seems to be seen as power unleashed to work evil, seeking out its victims; so...{Morgoth}...himself...fear{ed} that Turin 'would grow to such a power that the curse... would become void, and he would escape the doom that had been designed for him'. And afterwards in Nargothrond Turin concealed his true name, so that when Gwindor revealed it he was angered: 'You have done ill to me...to betray my right name, and call down my doom...from which I would lie hid'. ...Gwindor...had told Turin ...that Morgoth had laid a curse on {him}. But ... {Gwindor} replied...'the doom lies in yourself, not in your name.'

So essential is this complex conception in the story that my father even proposed an alternative title to it:...The Tale of the Curse of Morgoth. And his view of it is seen in these words: 'So ended the tale of Turin the hapless; the worst of the works of Morgoth among Men in the ancient world.'"

And her heart still cheated her with hope unadmitted; her inmost thought foreboded that Húrin was not dead, and she listened for his footfall in the sleepless watches of the night, or would wake thinking that she had heard in the courtyard the neigh of Arroch his horse. Moreover, though she was willing that her son should be fostered in the halls of another, after the manner of that time, she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king. Therefore the voice of Húrin, or the memory of his voice, was denied, and the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven.