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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Movie Tech. Disc. 5 - Building Middle-earth: Props
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Elven
Valinor


Feb 10 2008, 11:46am

Post #26 of 96 (981 views)
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Gondor writing style ... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a picture of the Map which Faramir uses at Henneth Annun to outline what is happening ... a geeky observe is that the hand we usually see pointing to the places is actually Peter Jacksons hand (another hand cameo - the other is a shot of Sams hand as he holds his sword as he faces Shelob ... its Peters hand) ... but onto the map ...


The paper here reminds me of what I call 'butchers paper' or 'fish and chip paper' ... its relatively thin and comes in large sheets ... which is perfect for map drawing! ... but I think they would have maybe used other paper for the film Wink

This map is interesting, as the places which are on the map are all relevant to whats been covered in the film ... a viewer would be familiar with the names .. its not as detailed as other maps, and simplifies the scene ... the writing is large, and the map is very clear to read ... its not coloured and elaborate, its a travelling map, so I dont think it would have to be that ornante ... I also love the way that in many of the shots you can see that te maps have fold marks and creases in them ... as they should if they have been stored by the traveller ...

The font for this map is very clear also







From this collage you can see the list at the bottom which reads Knights of the Riddermark ... this is more Rohan writings and is a little more elegant than the Gondorian writings (IMHO) .. there is also a large page to the left ... the Capitals of the Rohans seem to have that distictive flourish to them and are thickened with either a second line or are bold ... though the rest of the scripting may not be so delicate in places ...




Here we see Gandalf amonst the Archives in Mainas Tirith ... Daniel also did the scripting for the Archive pages ...
This is not the shot I wanted to show, I wanted to show Isuldurs writings about the ring ... as the font has quite an Elvish style to it, moreso than a Gondorian style (IMHO) ... also it has the wording of the ring in the same font as is on the ring ... so Isuldur has copied the scripting from the ring onto the pages of the memoirs ...




Here is the scripting Daniel designed for the Ring ...









and some more Hobbit writings ....
I think Bilbo has a slightly softer touch to his writings ... The strokes and pressure of his pen is more freehand ... and you can tell he likes drawing and decorating his book as well Wink






Shire Map in the Red Book





You can see in Bilbos map of the Lonely Mountain how it has been given an aged treatment, and the creases and folds adds to it ...





A geeky observation ...
If you drag out your Hobbit book and have a look at the writing of Tolkien on his Map of the Lonely Mountain ... now this is just my own interpretation here, but .... you might see that some of the words with extended or high strokes have been added after the word was written ... so he might have embellished the font after the map was drawn ... the strokes are not one piece, but two ....

for example ... the 'H & L' in 'The Desolation of Smaug' ... you can see where the pen line extends from a usual size font ...
The word 'The' in 'The Running River' looks also as if it has had it's H stroke lengthened ...
same with the 'H & L' in 'The Lonely Mountain'
'West Lies Mirkwood The Great There are Spiders' ... the 'L, K, H' are extensions...
and 'Thor's Map' ... the 'H' in Thor ...
and possibly 'Far to The North' ... the extended 'H' ...



We must discuss some Elvish writings maybe soon too Wink

Cheers Elven ..


The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Feb 10 2008, 12:25pm

Post #27 of 96 (978 views)
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Thanks for finding those [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm reminded again of the level of care and love for Tolkien that is embedded so deeply in these movies. Eomer's banishment order is wonderful, and I'm sorry it didn't get into the movies.

When I was corresponding with Daniel during the Map project, I just had to tell him that his work was the turning point for me - when I saw "No Admittance Except on Party Business" and Thror's Map, I relaxed because I knew the movies were in the hands of people who loved Tolkien as much as I do. He responded that that was exactly what he felt when he started working on the movies and saw the sets, costumes and props - he just knew the movies were being made by the right people.

Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.


NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows


Elven
Valinor


Feb 10 2008, 1:09pm

Post #28 of 96 (954 views)
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I sooo agree!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Its one thing I will always kick myself over, and that was not understanding what was going on with the torn map *waves hand over head* ... I have one now, but Im not there, which is my own fault ... but as I see, there is a great connection between Daniel and the fonts and writings, and also the fans and followers of Tolkiens work, he understands the importance of getting it right .... I think Tolkien would have admired it all greatly. I can see Tolkiens love for scribing in the way he did his own calligraphy and maps - his pen drawings and the way he 'had' to express what he was writing about ... I cherish that immensely.

Im glad so much attention was given to the calligraphy!
I makes it all the better!!

Cheers entmaiden!


The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 2:40pm

Post #29 of 96 (932 views)
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Such great behind-the-scenes detail! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is wonderful! Fascinating information! Everything was thought out with so much attention to detail. It was that attention to detail that made everything feel so right even if just subconsciously and one is not exactly sure why. But I love knowing why. It is one thing to look at the calligraphy and think, “Isn’t that beautiful”, and quite another to know that Gondorian is straighter and able to be carved into stone, and the Rohan style is more Celtic-looking, and how individual styles were achieved. It is so nice of Daniel to take the time to do this. I feel like I should say so much more.

Great observations on your part about the ragged page edges, the brown ink, the lack of blotches and dirty fingers, and “the last bit in the title Lord of the Rings by Frodo Baggins.”

Thanks, Elven!


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 2:43pm

Post #30 of 96 (944 views)
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The Death Warrant. [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, when I read your quote I hear Dan Hennah’s voice. I think I’ve seen these things too many times, LOL.

I whish that the death warrant could have been included in the theatrical edition. Also, I think that it is perfectly logical that there should be a style of script for Rohan. There were periods of time in history when not only entire populations could not read or write, but even the royalty could not, except for their scribes. It would be reasonable though, that Theoden could read and write.


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 2:45pm

Post #31 of 96 (941 views)
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And one book to rule them all? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was going to say “What’s fimo transfer precious, what is fimo transfer?” But no, I won’t say that. What is fimo transfer?


Elven
Valinor


Feb 10 2008, 3:41pm

Post #32 of 96 (950 views)
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Ah! You made me think about something ... [In reply to] Can't Post

and that was that in the Death Warrant or Banishing Order ... I remember asking if Grima may have written it without Theoden knowing ... but now I see this a bit differently, as Grima 'was once a man of Rohan' ... his writing style would be of a Rohirrim, and he seems educated ... (beyond his sense of dress and hair stylist) ... he has been servant in the Tower of Lore and Wizadry ... I think he did write the Death Warrant ... as he would not have maybe allowed a scribe to write it ... and that the signature is Theodens ... as Theoden can hardly sit on his chair, let alone write something as neat and ordered as that document is ... and the signature is sooo radical ... it is not to say that Theoden cant write ... Im sure he can, because he can read ... (I cant remember where I see him reading over something ... maybe its before Aragorn comes in and says the beacons are lit .... but at the time of the warrant being given to Eowyn he possibly could have done nothing ... Im not even sure he could have dictated something like that either ...

so I guess - this is actually Grimas handwriting?


Thanks for the reply OhioHobbit, you are certainly making me think (movie-wise)!

Cheers Elven


The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Feb 10 2008, 3:58pm

Post #33 of 96 (962 views)
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Great thread, Ohiohobbit and Elven! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you both so much for taking the time to put it all together.

As for Daniel Reeve's amazing work, I should be meeting him briefly next month, as part of my Red Carpet tour of New Zealand -- I plan to take the opportunity to thank him for the TORn map, but I'll also ask him about putting together a book of his LotR work.

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"


Elven
Valinor


Feb 10 2008, 3:59pm

Post #34 of 96 (947 views)
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Fimo transfer ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is liquid clay ... or polymere actually, and its transparent.

Fimo is polymere clay (moulding clay plasticy stuuf) comes in a little brick ... that you mould and can put in the oven and bake ... it hardens like clay ...you can make all sorts of stuff with it ...

The fimo transfer clay goes over a picture ...and then you place the picture onto a fimo tile face down and bake it. When its cooked you peel the paper off and underneath the transparent clay has taken the image and it looks like a tile ... the only thing to remember is that with pictures they will transfer backwards if you dont reverse them first ... so I make a copy on the computer ... reverse it and print it out and use that Wink


though as I said ... I have little luck, as the paper and the ink from the printer is vital to it working, and I never seem to be able to have the right paper when I want to do these things at 1am in the morning Crazy Laugh ... or I run out of trnsparent clay ... or I drop it on the way to the oven ... or I forget about it and it burns Shocked Evil Tongue ... its all good fun though! Cool

Hope that makes some sense Crazy

Cheers Elven


The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Elven
Valinor


Feb 10 2008, 4:07pm

Post #35 of 96 (949 views)
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Oh wow Lily!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thats wonderful!! I hope, Im sure actually, you'll have an amazing time.
Daniel is also doing one of the Red Carpet Tours - a sketching tour - later in the year ... this would be so awesome to do, Im soooo jealous LOL - in the nicest possible way!! Cool

Please thank him from all of us if you get a chance!! .Wink

Im really enjoying having the chance in these threads to look over all the calligraphy ... its not often discussed so Im grabbing this opportunity with both hands Smile

There's more of Daniels emails to come, so please come back and have a read Lily

Cheers
Elven


The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 10 2008, 4:34pm

Post #36 of 96 (959 views)
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A few accidents too much [In reply to] Can't Post

Elven, you should go to bed early and try all this at 1 pm - somehow I get the feeling it would be better for the outcome! Tongue

But thanks for the explanation, I hadn't ever heard of Fimo, either!

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Peredhil lover
Valinor

Feb 10 2008, 4:38pm

Post #37 of 96 (927 views)
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Wow! [In reply to] Can't Post

You're a lucky girl! Oh yes, when you get to meet him, please tell him what a wonderful work he did - not only for the TORn map, but for the whole movie trilogy. And if you could convince him about the book, that would be great! Smile

I do not suffer from LotR obsession - I enjoy every minute of it.


Lily Fairbairn
Half-elven


Feb 10 2008, 4:54pm

Post #38 of 96 (934 views)
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The sketching tour [In reply to] Can't Post

We'd already signed up for the regular tour when they organized the sketching tour, or I would have been tempted.

I'm having to mostly lurk these days, but I will be sure to watch for the calligraphy messages. Thanks!

* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?

A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 6:09pm

Post #39 of 96 (926 views)
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That makes sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

The nest time I go to the art store I am going to see if they have that.

Thanks, Elven.


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 6:10pm

Post #40 of 96 (923 views)
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LOL! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 6:13pm

Post #41 of 96 (930 views)
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WOW from me too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, thank Daniel for all of us. And please do have a good time, because since I can’t go, I plan to live vicariously through you.Wink


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 6:15pm

Post #42 of 96 (924 views)
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That is all perfectly logical. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ainu Laire
Tol Eressea


Feb 10 2008, 6:41pm

Post #43 of 96 (951 views)
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Daniel Reeve... [In reply to] Can't Post

First off, thank you to OhioHobbit and Elven for this absolutely amazing thread! Daniel Reeve is absolutely amazing, and I hope he publishes a book one day with his work; I already have Alan Lee's sketchbook, and would be thrilled to see a book with his work.

I met him at ORC 2006. He actually brought the Red Book of Westmarch, Isildur's letter, and other great goodies. He was also selling personalized Birthday Invitations there, and I scrapped up a few dozen dollars to buy myself one- it is now framed and one of my most prized possessions.




And the actual invite. I erased my last name on photoshop. And yes, I had to have "Laire" there as well :D




Finally, if you want to see about half of the 100 or so pictures I took at Daniel's panel, I wrote up about it in 2006 in my LJ. Not all of the pictures turned out that great, unfortunately.

My LJ
My art site
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 10 2008, 6:48pm

Post #44 of 96 (940 views)
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Now *that* is wicked. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had to smile: When I read "111th birthday" I heard Bilbo's voice at his party. :)

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Elven
Valinor


Feb 10 2008, 7:03pm

Post #45 of 96 (940 views)
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Oh gosh!! [In reply to] Can't Post

That is marvelous!! A real invitation!!! WOW!! I haven't seen one before!! Thankyou so much for posting your pics of it! .. and Daniel scribing with a quill ... sends me back to a past life in a monestary somewhere in Tuscany ... LOL!! Laugh ...

What a treasure to have an invitation to Bilbos Party. Totally Cool!

Thanks so much Ainu Laire!

Cheers
Elven


The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.


Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!

Russell Crowe for Beorn

Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"


Urambo Tauro
Rivendell


Feb 10 2008, 8:57pm

Post #46 of 96 (926 views)
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Re: Movie Tech. #5 - Props [In reply to] Can't Post

This is probably my favourite of the Movie Tech threads: the props.

So much care is put into these, and the levels of detail can make your head spin.
I'm particularly fascinated by the swords and calligraphy (and various rings, too).

Having handled many of the United Cutlery replicas, I find myself highly impressed by their accuracy. But, looking back at pictures and video of the original props, I see details here and there that were just too fine to replicate.

Peter Lyon has visited a couple of other forums I frequent, and has shed light on various aspects of making the swords. For example, Narsil/Andúril has a small hollow in the cross-guard near the blade. At one point, a stone was intended to be set there. There are Sun-rays etched on Andúril's blade, and are arranged so that this hollow is at the center. The plan was to have a golden-yellow stone (possibly citrine or topaz) there, representing the sun. For various reasons, this concept was later dropped, but the hollow is still there!

The calligraphy throughout the film is all legible. None (that I am aware of) is nonsense. You can read the walls of the Chamber of Mazarbul or Gilraen's grave-stone. You can read the runes on Glamdring or the pages of the Book of Saruman. It's all discernable.

Have you seen the Nine Rings of Men? They look quite different from the rings the Nazgûl wear. Somewhere along the way, the Nine rings "wither" into thinner rings exhibiting details that are more overtly evil. The "Kings" on the sides of the rings become skeletons, and the stone becomes a red Eye.


And there's so much more...


(This post was edited by Urambo Tauro on Feb 10 2008, 8:59pm)


Arwen's daughter
Half-elven


Feb 10 2008, 9:34pm

Post #47 of 96 (924 views)
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When props are successful no one ever notices them [In reply to] Can't Post

What a fantastic thread this is. We could spend a lifetime looking at all of the props used in the movie! I love that they chose to make every single prop rather than risk someone in the audience owning those glasses or that chandelier, etc. I wonder, though, if they had any idea what they'd done when they decided that.

Let's face it, most of us never looked past the characters on our first viewing. I know I may have noticed a detail here or there, but I always catch something new in images and viewings. The sheer number of props and details astounds me, and moreso realizing that some things that were made probably never made it on film.

By the way, the LOTR costume site has some images of props, mostly pieces that have been on display alongside the costumes. You can find them Here.

And if I could have any piece from the movies, I'd probably swipe either one of the banners from the battles or anything from the Rivendell set. The furniture and props there are excellent. I guess, though, that I'm drawn to the textiles. Or maybe one of the pipes the Hobbits and Gandalf used.... or.... I could keep going naming favorite props.

Thanks, OhioHobbit, for bringing us these great discussions!



My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
February's Screencap of the Day Schedule


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 10 2008, 10:04pm

Post #48 of 96 (915 views)
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That is amazing! [In reply to] Can't Post

An invitation to Bilbo’s party – that is remarkable on so many different levels. And then there is the picture of Daniel Reeve creating it. It is all just magical. Thank you so much for sharing it.


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 11 2008, 12:11am

Post #49 of 96 (917 views)
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And there’s so much more... [In reply to] Can't Post

The hardest thing in doing any of this movie technical discussion is trying to decide what and how much to include. There is just so very much and so much is going to get left out. It just boggles the mind. I never realized just how huge it all is.

You have some fascinating information that I never heard before. They talked so much about the hollow on Narsil, but they never explained why it was there. If it is so difficult to do then why design it that way? Now I know. Personally, I think I like the hollow more than I would have liked a stone.

I am going to have to check out the nine rings. That is so cool.

Thanks for the link. Those translations are terrific!


OhioHobbit
Gondor

Feb 11 2008, 12:13am

Post #50 of 96 (927 views)
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A lifetime looking at all of the props [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you imagine wandering through where ever these things are stored? I think something that would be really neat would be to see pictures of all the props that were never seen in the movies. I wonder if among all of the props there are some things that will never see the light of day again. I have a vision of the last scene in Raiders of the Lost Arc.

Thanks for posting the link. There are some great pictures of props there. I felt like a kid in a candy store. By the way, next week’s discussion in on costumes.

The prop that you would choose - it isn’t easy, is it?

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