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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE

The Grey Pilgrim
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 1:48pm

Post #1 of 337 (9978 views)
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HUGE Announcement from Peter Jackson's facebook page TITLE CHANGE AND DOS EE Can't Post

https://www.facebook.com/PeterJacksonNZ?fref=nf


wow A LOT TO SPECULATE ON...not really sure how I feel about this TABA felt so perfect.

There and Back Again is NOW "Battle of the Five Armies"

and DOS EE is 25 minutes longer with new Howard Shore music!!

HUGE DAY


(This post was edited by The Grey Pilgrim on Apr 24 2014, 1:56pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 1:51pm

Post #2 of 337 (7732 views)
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I wasn't expecting that ... / [In reply to] Can't Post

 



FrogmortonJustice65
Rivendell


Apr 24 2014, 1:54pm

Post #3 of 337 (7642 views)
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mixed feelings about this [In reply to] Can't Post

Let me preface this by saying it won't affect my actual enjoyment of the film (a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, afterall) but I do think I preferred the original title.

Maybe "There and Back Again" isn't perfect (Jackson is right that Bilbo already got "there" in DoS) but naming the film after 1 battle scene, in a film that will have multiple other battles (Laketown, the Necromancer, and other stuff I'm sure) seems odd.

Plus, I liked that "There and Back Again" was thematically linked to LOTR -- via the title of Bilbo's book and via Sam's line in the ROTK EE ("We're going there and back again, just like Mr. Bilbo").

But it is afterall just a name.

 photo cbccab4e-f61e-4be5-aaa1-20e302430c7c.jpg


Arannir
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 1:54pm

Post #4 of 337 (7568 views)
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Good. [In reply to] Can't Post

It always kind of bugged me that the second film had the title Tolkien used for the entire tale. But with the three movie split it really became an issue imho.

Bot5A for movie III and TABA used for the entire set is a very good idea.

Although the battle is only one event of this movie, it is the major event happening and connected to almost all other major plotpoints (kind of sparked - at least in its ultimate shape - by Smaug's death, prescedented by all the politics and finger-pointing, subsequented by the deaths and the journey home etc).


25 minutes is also good news... I do not like extended cuts that go totally nuts on the running time. And the music part is great news for sure.

(PS: Freedom of Opinion - fair enough. But what some people post as replies on Facebook is really poor.)


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 24 2014, 2:03pm)


Thranderz
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 1:55pm

Post #5 of 337 (7557 views)
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WOW [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually sounds good, although I liked the TABA name! Looks like we'll be referring to it as BOFATongue.

As for the additional comment about the DoS EE, that has me very excited! Especially the part about Shore's original music! Cool

I simply walked into Mordor.


book Gandalf
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 1:56pm

Post #6 of 337 (7526 views)
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ok [In reply to] Can't Post

i honestly thought they were going to announce a fourth film when i was reading that!!

im ok with this, it isnt very tolkien, but the title now suits the cgi computer game action fest the hobbit has become, for good or bad, im excited for the huge battle now, but mourning the innocence of the hobbit thats lost.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:07pm

Post #7 of 337 (7462 views)
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I'm 50/50 [In reply to] Can't Post

I really would have preferred they stay with The Hobbit: There and Back Again but this is alright. It still feels Tolkien like. I do like that the Box Set will be called The Hobbit: There and Back Again though.

Loving that DOS is getting 25 mins. That's about what I thought it would get and I'm hoping it has lots of slower moments to make this film flow just a little bit better.



Erufaildon
Bree


Apr 24 2014, 2:08pm

Post #8 of 337 (7471 views)
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Was AUJ EE scored by Shore [In reply to] Can't Post

or not? Since people are excited about the 25min being scored by Shore.


The Grey Pilgrim
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 2:10pm

Post #9 of 337 (7427 views)
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I think all AUJ EE music was from the original recording sessions [In reply to] Can't Post

Taken from the "extended" cues on the special edition soundtrack if I'm not mistaken. I don't think there was any new music recorded for it.


Rohirrim Rider
Rivendell


Apr 24 2014, 2:12pm

Post #10 of 337 (7429 views)
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Howard Shore's involvement is the best news here... And at least the title isn't 'Into The Fire'! [In reply to] Can't Post

As much as I loved AUJ:EE it didn't quite feel like a real EE. The 13 minutes were fine and they added just enough to make it worthwhile, but 25 minutes AND new Howard Shore music? That's a proper Middle-Earth Extended Edition!

As for the title - it loses the Hobbit-ness of There and Back Again but it's perfectly understandable why it doesn't fit. The Battle of the Five Armies puts a bit too much emphasis on one aspect of the story (then again, The Return of the King does a similar thing) but it's not Into the Fire and that's a very good thing. So I'm happy with The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies.


(This post was edited by Rohirrim Rider on Apr 24 2014, 2:13pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:12pm

Post #11 of 337 (7380 views)
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Scored by his music... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but the music was not specifically written for the scenes during the editing-process of the EE version.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


Lindele
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 2:14pm

Post #12 of 337 (7397 views)
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Couldn't agree more [In reply to] Can't Post

such good news!


Arannir
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:14pm

Post #13 of 337 (7397 views)
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Agree on RotK... [In reply to] Can't Post

... actually, I think Bot5A encompasses more than RotK ever did (and gives less away).

I always wished the publisher back then had used "The War of the Ring" for books 5 & 6 of LotR.

Might seem strange for non-German speakers, but partly I am glad for this change because I hate the German "There and Back Again" ("Hin und wieder Zurück") and love how the German term for Bot5A ("Die Schlacht der Fünf Heere") sounds. One of the very very very few Tolkien terms that have a better flow in German than in English imho.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 24 2014, 2:17pm)


ghost_matt
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 2:16pm

Post #14 of 337 (7392 views)
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me too! [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought he was about to announce a fourth movie. I like "The Battle of Five Armies" as a title, and it's MUCH better than "Into the Fire", but TABA is still the best title.

WOOHOO on the 25 extra minutes!!! Hopefully that's what we're actually going to get. When AUJ first came out PJ also said the EE would have about 25 more minutes. Of course, they're probably farther along on the EE for DOS.


Faleel
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 2:17pm

Post #15 of 337 (7390 views)
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You [In reply to] Can't Post

You pretty much got it right, though there were some scenes where either Jackson did not like the music (Bilbo talking to Elrond), or he just edited in music from elsewhere in the score (Thranduil and the gems)


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 2:18pm

Post #16 of 337 (7351 views)
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Great news. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Battle of 5 Armies are exact words from Tolkien himself and a catchier title than TABA.And in marketing terms it is better imo.I really liked the title TABA myself and i am glad that it will be used as a title for the whole trilogy at least!

And DOS EE over 25 minutes!!I hope it reaches any magical number between 30-35.I would be delighted.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Skaan
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 2:18pm

Post #17 of 337 (7392 views)
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Does this sound like the start of the first wave of marketing? [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like we might get some vlogs/posters soon. Perhaps we'll get a trailer along with the release of Godzilla?


Arannir
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:21pm

Post #18 of 337 (7361 views)
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While I do not doubt... [In reply to] Can't Post

... PJ & Company's story intentions for the name change for one second, I am sure that some marketing people at WB may be quite happy with this new title.

I just hope they do not start trying to hide big parts of the movie, again. Imho that strategy failed with Smaug who should have been on posters (at least the way he was used on the China and Twitter posters). The battle and other highlights of TBot5A should be used in a similar fashion the Pelennor was used for RotK.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


TheImaginator
Rivendell

Apr 24 2014, 2:26pm

Post #19 of 337 (7328 views)
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Woooaaah [In reply to] Can't Post

Hated the new title at first but within a few minutes I started to really like it :D I would have preferred it to stay "There and Back Again" just because I love how vague and Tolkein it is but "The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies" is a pretty good title too.

I like to see it as the culmination of the entire Hobbit series. Almost every encounter and event in the the trilogy directly affects BO5A (as in the actual battle). The actual title IMO isn't referring to the actual battle, it's just using it to symbolize and embody the massive culmination of events and series of consequences that will be shown in the third film, such as Smaug attacking Laketown, all the death from that and bo5a, the return of Sauron because of the ignorance and naivety of people. It's like one big hangover from AUJ and DOS.


dubulous
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 2:27pm

Post #20 of 337 (7316 views)
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I guess it makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post

I liked There and Back Again but I understand the change since they already got "there" in the last movie, so the title wouldn't have made so much sense.

The Battle of the Five Armies is not a particularly catchy name though. It's a bit of a mouthful.


xxxyyy
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 2:30pm

Post #21 of 337 (7370 views)
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Who cares about the title? Over 25 mins for DOS EE? "Over" is magic word here. [In reply to] Can't Post

The more the better for DOS, expecially in the first part.
Let's hope they reach a nice 30 or 35 minutes, right?
I was hoping for 40 mins, but I admit that was a bit of wishful thinking.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 2:32pm

Post #22 of 337 (7352 views)
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Before you get too excited [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that Jackson overstated the amount of extra material for AUJ. Hopefully that won't be true this time around.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


cats16
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:35pm

Post #23 of 337 (7286 views)
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Big news! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was a little surprised to see this change so late in the game, but, I do appreciate them reflecting on whatever cut of the film they had and knowing that a change needed to be made. I'm sure that wasn't an easy decision--for both PJ and WB. In the end, I'm not kicking and screaming about it. None of the three titles were going to be 'original' in the sense that FOTR/TTT/ROTK were. They all had to be artificially made to feel like they were part of Tolkien's world. This one, however, happens to be a direct phrase from this portion of the book.

Hoping for a vlog in the next couple of weeks! It's been awhile!!


cats16
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:36pm

Post #24 of 337 (7268 views)
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I believe he said 25 minutes that time as well, correct? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


The Grey Pilgrim
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 2:38pm

Post #25 of 337 (7264 views)
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Yeah he said 25 minutes for AUJ back in December 2012 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it was at Buttnumbathon with Harry Knowles, and we only got 13 minutes Frown But this estimate seems like it'll be more accurate as it was given a lot later in the game where they're probably pretty much done with the EE. Perhaps that is why PJ and Co waited so long to announce DOS EE length because of what happened last time.


davidjUK
Bree


Apr 24 2014, 2:39pm

Post #26 of 337 (3663 views)
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There and Back Again [In reply to] Can't Post

About 10 minutes ago when I first read the news, I was a bit disappointed that "There and Back Again" was not going to be used. But I think "The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies" is a good title and sounds more exciting. I trust Peter with these stories, so I'm sure the this is the right decision. Can't wait for December!

As for the EE, I'm excited we get some new original score from Howard! Hopefully they have put the Dol Guldur sequences as they were meant to be, and new music has had to be done for it.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 2:40pm

Post #27 of 337 (3604 views)
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And the fact that HS is scoring new music means they must have it pretty much firmed up by now... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 2:40pm

Post #28 of 337 (3580 views)
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I think so too. [In reply to] Can't Post

But let's not forget one crucial difference between the 2 movies.AUJ TE did not "scream" expansion,but for us,being Middle Earth lovers, any extra minute is like a small treasure.A large expansion though was not really necessary.On the contrary,DOS TE "screams" expansion and i believe PJ is aware of that.This is the main reason i think we will have our precious 25-35 minutes of an extended DOS cut.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Apr 24 2014, 2:43pm)


cats16
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:42pm

Post #29 of 337 (3568 views)
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For sure. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would guess that the number is still *slightly* yet to be determined, just because they still have choices to make about whether to include a scene in the DOS EE or the BoFA TE. Especially given Jackson's tendency to be editing at the last minute.

But I agree that he probably has a good idea this time around what's in and out of the EE.


Annatar598
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 2:43pm

Post #30 of 337 (3570 views)
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That was before DOS was fully put together [In reply to] Can't Post

Though. I'm pretty sure it'll be a different editorial thing this time round.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 2:45pm

Post #31 of 337 (3834 views)
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The Final Sell-out [In reply to] Can't Post

The Studios have got what they wanted all along and my sorrow deepens. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



cats16
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:46pm

Post #32 of 337 (3544 views)
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Oh, definitely! [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you.

I simply mean that we shouldn't hold him firmly to 25 minutes, as he may choose a particular scene (say it's 6 minutes) at the last minute for the BoFA TE, instead of the DOS EE. Of course, since the EE comes out a month before the third film, this won't be happening quite so much at the last minute, compared to AUJ/DOS.


Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell


Apr 24 2014, 2:48pm

Post #33 of 337 (3584 views)
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Final cut?! [In reply to] Can't Post

In terms of the usual timelines for LOTR and The Hobbit, is it normal for them to have the rough final cut in place at this time? Too early? Too late?

Based on interviews and what not it seems like there will be no additional filming, just the usual ADR and other things like that. So with about 8 months until release, is that about the right time for them to be editing the final cut?

"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 2:51pm

Post #34 of 337 (3737 views)
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How is a sellout? [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't the new title taken from the exact same words Tolkien used in his book?If there was another title, like the rumour we had heard a week ago "Into the Fire" i would totally understand you.Right now,i fail to comprehend your objection.And that is why i would like to see why you feel that way.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"

(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Apr 24 2014, 2:53pm)


cats16
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:54pm

Post #35 of 337 (3534 views)
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Where does it say *final* cut? [In reply to] Can't Post

The only mentioning of 'cut' talks about PJ having a cut ready to show studio heads. He never says anything about a final cut.


Arannir
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 2:55pm

Post #36 of 337 (3551 views)
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What exactly did they want all along? [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 2:56pm

Post #37 of 337 (3661 views)
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KS is known for being dramatic about these films in general. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thinks it "destroys" Tolkien or something... Any piece of Hobbit movie news that isn't something like it being canceled will deepen KS's sorrow.



wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 3:03pm

Post #38 of 337 (3485 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

As you said, it is just a name and I'm sure we'll get used to it soon. I was rather fond of There and Back Again, though, and I hope the phrase is said at some point in the film to make more of a connection to the book title in LotR.

keep smiling Smile


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 3:04pm

Post #39 of 337 (3602 views)
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If the words from [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien destroy... Tolkien, then, i can say no more!

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Elarie
Grey Havens

Apr 24 2014, 3:04pm

Post #40 of 337 (3514 views)
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So happy about the extra time in DOS EE [In reply to] Can't Post

Can't wait to see it.

Suspect the title change is a way to get more of the general audience back in the theater for the big climax by including the word "battle".

Hop to it, Radagast, we've got dark powers to sleigh.


Bernhardina
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 3:05pm

Post #41 of 337 (3531 views)
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I am just happy it itsn't "Into the Fire" [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Battle of Five Armies is a great title for a film. And does it matter what it is called, really? TABA and BOFA will be the same movie, just different names. I respect PJs opinion and agree with his decision Smile



Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 3:10pm

Post #42 of 337 (3464 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a marketing move all the way. It's also a good oen. I have been very critical of WB's marketing and I think this was a smart move on their part. While There and Back Again is indeed very Tolkien, in terms of getting butts in the seats in the movie houses BoT5A will work better and generate more interest. It's a WB move all the way. Good one too.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 3:28pm

Post #43 of 337 (3447 views)
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One of the Nicest Parts of this Quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

"...just Jabez & I in a Dark Room in a Cave in Wellington.."

This Bodes well,
since all the extranenous
Interruptions are gone.

Jus' 2 guys having a Go @ it...
Allows PJ to Refine, Define &
Then Refine again.

JUST like any Artist...you
NEED to step a Ways BACK
& Really Look @ it,

Disengage from the Moments,
& Allow it to have a Life
of it's OWN?

Bomby & AllOfYou are
Blessed.
Heart


Remus
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 3:28pm

Post #44 of 337 (3428 views)
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I like it! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the 25 minute of extended scenes in the DoS movie!

25 is a good number and it was what i expected from the first movie (AUJ).

I hope we get to see more of Sauron and Dol Guldur!


More Smaug scenes is a safe bet.

I wanna see a scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dur and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.


-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.


Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell


Apr 24 2014, 3:41pm

Post #45 of 337 (3379 views)
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I apologize... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, I didn't realize I used the word "final", sorry about that!

I meant to say that they had finally put together the first cut of the final film, meaning they structured everything together and have the large portion of the final film ready to be cut down.

Of course it's not even close to "Final", my bad on that one.

"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry


Brandywine
The Shire


Apr 24 2014, 3:43pm

Post #46 of 337 (3393 views)
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BOFA [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the new title. It sounds really epic. TABA just felt wrong for the third movie.


(This post was edited by Brandywine on Apr 24 2014, 3:43pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 3:51pm

Post #47 of 337 (3396 views)
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Like it has been stated, it's a more marketable title. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm fine with it.

Yay for over 25 minutes of footage in the DOS SEE with original music from Shore specifically written for it. Smile


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 4:02pm

Post #48 of 337 (3364 views)
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Everything leads down to it which makes it the "Right" title.. [In reply to] Can't Post

The more familiar I become with DOS the more I am convinced that everything is entwined with the Battle. Dol Gulder is on the way already and all the personal story lines are set to reach their denouement at the battle.

In story telling terms the one matter which is not clear is the confrontation between the White Council and The Necromancer.

I cannot see Sauron being confronted and withdrawing before the Battle he has been revealed as having a strategic plan for the North and is moving all the pieces. Its his plan.

Are we in a two gambit mode a la Pelennor followed by Black Gate, FA followed by Dol Gulder.

Or is it all wound together with a high mythological end where the White Council (like the army of the dead) come to the aid of the Men/Elves and Dwarves.

Gandalf has made Sauron reveal himself before the latter is ready is that to force the White Council to act against Dol Gulder or draw him out in away which makes him more vulnerable.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 4:02pm

Post #49 of 337 (3407 views)
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The title change may be for the best. [In reply to] Can't Post

As much as I liked TH:TaBA, TH:Bo5A is a more dynamic title.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 4:05pm

Post #50 of 337 (3398 views)
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Well ... it does have an extra "the". [In reply to] Can't Post

The movie title really should be The Battle of Five Armies.



TheHutt
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 4:09pm

Post #51 of 337 (3396 views)
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I suppose... [In reply to] Can't Post

...they were planning this for some time. They first pitched the idea of "Into The Fire" to check out the opinions on the Net. After the negative outcome, they selected "The Battle of Five Armies" instead.

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet Project



MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 4:26pm

Post #52 of 337 (3408 views)
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25 minutes! [In reply to] Can't Post

woot woot! more than i expected, i thought maybe around 15 minutes.

The flames of war are upon you.


Farficom
Rivendell


Apr 24 2014, 4:39pm

Post #53 of 337 (3355 views)
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I must say... [In reply to] Can't Post

That I'm a little shocked they changed the title this late in the game. I really thought There and Back Again was a perfect title... but in the end I will be in line early on opening day. Getting used to calling in BoFA instead of TaBA is going to be tough.


book Gandalf
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 5:17pm

Post #54 of 337 (3318 views)
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theory [In reply to] Can't Post

theory, TORn used the 'into fire' to drum up a bit of anticipation and a few thousand extras clicks, someone on the inside knew a change was imminent but they couldn't let the cat out of the bag.

cmon own up, what exactly was registered when into fire was mooted?

i smell a cleverly leaked rumour :P

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 5:18pm

Post #55 of 337 (3301 views)
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Well, at least BOFA is better than "Into the Fire" [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I can deal with that, since it's what they had thought about calling it BOFA to begin with. The main problem for me will be trying to get used to using the new acronym!Wink

Glad to hear about the 25 extra minutes of EE and the new music though. Can't complain about that.Smile

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 5:26pm

Post #56 of 337 (3304 views)
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Very happy with the additional 25 minutes [In reply to] Can't Post

and looking forward to watching more intimate moments that DOS TE badly needed.

I was a bit shocked when I heard of the changing of the title but I agree with those who said it is a more catchy title for the general public. And it's canonWink, unlike Into the Fire.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 5:29pm

Post #57 of 337 (3302 views)
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Personally [In reply to] Can't Post

I much rather prefer 'There and Back Again', since it sounds as though it is far more centred around Bilbo (and Tolkien's book).

BoFA makes it sound like just another battle (an excuse for PJ to insert even more of those moments he considers 'fun', like those we saw in DoS ad nauseum). Crazy

I will certainly be happy to have 45 minutes or more in the EE for DoS. The film needs this, provided they are character moments for book canon characters, and not more 'party' moments with people chucking food around, or individuals emerging from lavatories or ninja elf comic-book moments.


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 24 2014, 5:34pm)


TheHutt
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 5:31pm

Post #58 of 337 (3271 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Well, at least BOFA is better than "Into the Fire"


Well, that's the psychology of that, isn't it? First to pitch a very bad title and than a slightly better one, so everyone is relieved it's not THAT title. :)

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Booklet Project



(This post was edited by TheHutt on Apr 24 2014, 5:32pm)


Dcole4
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 5:36pm

Post #59 of 337 (3251 views)
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Haha, that could very well be the case. [In reply to] Can't Post

Movie studios are always cautious not to disturb the fans. I wouldn't be surprised if "Into the Fire" was released publicly to create a sigh of relief when "Battle of the Five Armies" was settled on.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 5:37pm

Post #60 of 337 (3277 views)
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At least it's not "Beauty and the Dwarf". [In reply to] Can't Post

Though more Tolkien songs would be appreciated.

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 5:39pm)


Morok Cloudkeeper
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 5:44pm

Post #61 of 337 (3299 views)
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It seems that people don't understand what "There and Back again" means [In reply to] Can't Post

Biblo and Co. went on this adventure(there) and the last film shows the main conflict and their return journey(back again). Where is the problem? How could this title not be appropriate?

Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work. And the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking. Don't settle.



tsmith675
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 5:57pm

Post #62 of 337 (3210 views)
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There and Back Again was a good title... [In reply to] Can't Post

But it never made sense for the third film, as much as everyone wants to say it did, it didn't. BoFA makes more sense.

The Hobbit: There and Back Again fits the entire trilogy, rather than one film.

Our destiny lies above us.


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 6:01pm

Post #63 of 337 (3187 views)
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*snert* Good point! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



jtarkey
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 6:09pm

Post #64 of 337 (3242 views)
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What horrible news this is [In reply to] Can't Post

A perfect title thrown out the window in order to attract the masses with promises of overblown action.

That's why it was changed. Make no mistake.

They should have just called it "The Hobbit: One last attempt to make more money by appealing to the lowest common denominator".

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

^^^ That unnecessary apostrophe and "e" is due to the leaf itself. And this part of the signature was documented quite some time after the effect had worn off.


tsmith675
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 6:11pm

Post #65 of 337 (3216 views)
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BoFA makes more sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

Make no mistake.

Our destiny lies above us.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:14pm

Post #66 of 337 (3182 views)
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Art or cash. [In reply to] Can't Post

We know which one Tolkien would have chosen.

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Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 6:14pm

Post #67 of 337 (3206 views)
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Nope, you're the lowest common denominator because you like excitement in your movies. [In reply to] Can't Post

We are but filthy peasants who ruin it for the elite.



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:16pm

Post #68 of 337 (3205 views)
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That I am. [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate boring movies. Go fig.

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Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 6:16pm

Post #69 of 337 (3168 views)
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Why not both? [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:17pm

Post #70 of 337 (3161 views)
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You'd have to ask Tolkien. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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jtarkey
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 6:17pm

Post #71 of 337 (3177 views)
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It sounds like a title a 13 year old would come up with [In reply to] Can't Post

It's fine for a chapter in a book, but calling the film that just rings false to me.

Sorry

"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"

^^^ That unnecessary apostrophe and "e" is due to the leaf itself. And this part of the signature was documented quite some time after the effect had worn off.


Azimuth
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 6:17pm

Post #72 of 337 (3153 views)
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Exactly my thoughts! [In reply to] Can't Post

I was going to write the same Smile

Quote
Quote
Well, at least BOFA is better than "Into the Fire"

Well, that's the psychology of that, isn't it? First to pitch a very bad title and than a slightly better one, so everyone is relieved it's not THAT title. :)

I prefer new title, it seemed inappropriate to call 1/3 of the story by the title of a whole story. Now it fits, TABA will be for the whole Hobbit trilogy.

BTW I was always confused with these acronyms, I read TABA as The Battle of 5 Armies, and get used to call the 3rd film like that while speaking and thinking. I remembered about There and Back Again only when I run into BOFA (like "oh yes, this is the acronym for the army thing, not TABA!"). I hope it will bring more people to the cinemas, to prove WB and other studios that it is worth to make films about Middle Earth.

(This post was edited by Azimuth on Apr 24 2014, 6:24pm)


tsmith675
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 6:18pm

Post #73 of 337 (3187 views)
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Well Tolkien came up with it... [In reply to] Can't Post

And he was older than 13, I believe.

There and Back Again never made sense for a third film.

Our destiny lies above us.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:20pm

Post #74 of 337 (3165 views)
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Like "The Reason I Jump"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good title, good book, by a 13 year old.

Recommended.

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Old Toby
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2014, 6:20pm

Post #75 of 337 (3209 views)
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This is losing sight of the forest for the trees IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

This is focusing on one element in Bilbo's story. And this is Bilbo's story...at least according to Tolkien. Now I realize these films are according to PJ, and I'm fine with the films. but the title of the last film should reflect the entire journey. I think There and Back Again is a perfect title for the last film, bringing a sense of completeness. The new title sounds like just another big special effects hoopla. It would be like calling the Two Towers The Battle of Helm's Deep or the Return of the King The Battle of the Pelennor Fields. I realize this is probably a marketing scheme, but I for one am extremely disappointed. Frown

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on Apr 24 2014, 6:22pm)


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 6:21pm

Post #76 of 337 (3112 views)
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Middle-Earth is ripe with extra 'the's [In reply to] Can't Post

THE Fellowship of THE Ring
THE Return of THE King

although in this case, The Battle Of The Five Armies makes sense with or without the 'the.'

*pauses to reflect

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:21pm

Post #77 of 337 (3123 views)
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Me too. [In reply to] Can't Post

It was a little too Katnissy.

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Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 6:25pm

Post #78 of 337 (3106 views)
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Love the knee-jerk reactions... [In reply to] Can't Post

Guess what, those movie were greenlit to make money to begin with. I bet you'll love it when it passes $1b at the box office. Maybe the title change will bring in those few needed millions. Wink

Having said that, i don't believe it was purely a money grabbing decision. The title has been registered for quite a while, they were obviously toying with the idea of naming it that way since they decided to make three movies. PJ makes a good argument for the name in his post.


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2014, 6:25pm

Post #79 of 337 (3075 views)
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I think you've just coined a new phrase.... [In reply to] Can't Post

"It was a little too Katnissy."
LOL!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:27pm

Post #80 of 337 (3065 views)
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Just like with "The Marriage of Figaro". [In reply to] Can't Post

The marriage was only a small part of Act 3.

Totally inappropriate title.

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 6:27pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:29pm

Post #81 of 337 (3073 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

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Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 6:29pm

Post #82 of 337 (3063 views)
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This is not just Bilbo's story. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is also very much Thorin's story. In the movies at least.


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 6:32pm

Post #83 of 337 (3059 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

TTT was much more than Orthanc's and Barad-dur's stories. It was more about the events surrounding the two towers and what they represent.

RotK was much more than Aragorn's story. It was more about the events surrounding the Return of the King.

DoS was much more than Dale's story. It was more about the events surrounding what happened in Dale.

BoFA will be much more than the story of the battle. It will be more about the events surrounding the battle.



Faleel
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 6:33pm

Post #84 of 337 (3032 views)
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.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Which build up to the battle... hence the title.


Sunflower
Valinor

Apr 24 2014, 6:34pm

Post #85 of 337 (3071 views)
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*shrug* [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, with WB calling all the shots here (I'm sure Peter wanted TABA, regardless of what he writes) did we really expect anything different?


Let's hope there will be S8ome* room for things like, you know, character development and such. Hoping that Bilbo and Thorin's last shared scene won't be 15 seconds long and sandwiched in between epic battle sequences....


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 6:35pm

Post #86 of 337 (3059 views)
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That, and everyone seems to forget: [In reply to] Can't Post

Every title is literally prefaced with "The Hobbit." Bilbo is referred to in the first noun of every single title about these movies.



(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 6:36pm)


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Apr 24 2014, 6:35pm

Post #87 of 337 (3035 views)
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Regardless [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still disappointed with the new title. I like the old one better.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


tsmith675
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 6:37pm

Post #88 of 337 (3041 views)
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The entire movie is going to revolve around the battle [In reply to] Can't Post

So it fits. It's not just about the battle, but the build up, the actual battle, and the aftermath. It's just a fitting title, in my opinion.

Our destiny lies above us.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:37pm

Post #89 of 337 (3020 views)
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Can't argue with that. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 6:41pm

Post #90 of 337 (3031 views)
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But... [In reply to] Can't Post

...every title of Lord of the Rings was prefaced with "The Lord of the Rings", yet none of the titles really refered to Sauron except (arguably) TTT.

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Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 6:44pm

Post #91 of 337 (3014 views)
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Well, right. [In reply to] Can't Post

That further drives home my point that people are overreacting to "BoFA" not referencing Bilbo :)



zalmoxis
Bree

Apr 24 2014, 6:50pm

Post #92 of 337 (3016 views)
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Also, [In reply to] Can't Post

I suspect that the 'Back Again' part of the tale will be reduced, or omitted completely. An epilogue with Ian Holm or whatever, glued to endless battle scenes in PJ style, would appear farcical, IMO.


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 6:53pm

Post #93 of 337 (3025 views)
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PJ didn't really overdo any battle in LotR. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe parts of them are a bit OTT, but in general he seemed to do an excellent job.

I'm not sure why everyone is jumping to that conclusion.



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 6:54pm

Post #94 of 337 (2986 views)
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You're theory [In reply to] Can't Post

would be wrong.



Faleel
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 6:55pm

Post #95 of 337 (3004 views)
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Because [In reply to] Can't Post

its Hobbit Jackson seems to be more far gone than LOTR Jackson.


(This post was edited by Faleel on Apr 24 2014, 6:56pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 6:56pm

Post #96 of 337 (3000 views)
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Because [In reply to] Can't Post

its much easier for people to overreact to things.



Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 6:59pm

Post #97 of 337 (2985 views)
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It's almost like the source material isn't as serious as LotR is or something. [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 7:00pm

Post #98 of 337 (2977 views)
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Maybe PJ is not who you want him to be. [In reply to] Can't Post

If he would be strictly against something, i don't think he would let WB have their way and then sugarcoat it in a post, i really don't.


(This post was edited by Estel78 on Apr 24 2014, 7:02pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 7:01pm

Post #99 of 337 (2996 views)
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I have to honestly admit, it's actually a better title. [In reply to] Can't Post

Consider this sequence from the end of “The Clouds Burst":

“The Eagles! the Eagles!” Bilbo cried, dancing and waving his arms. If the elves could not see him they could hear him. Soon they too took up the cry, and it echoed across the valley. Many wondering eyes looked up, though as yet nothing could be seen except from the southern shoulders of the Mountain.

“The Eagles!” cried Bilbo once more, but at that moment a stone hurtling from above smote heavily on his helm, and he fell with a crash and knew no more.


The screen goes black………

Non-readers will be going “Wha???? Bilbo Dies??????”

Of course that moment would be spoiled if the title was “The Hobbit: There and Back Again”.

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 7:03pm)


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 7:04pm

Post #100 of 337 (2959 views)
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I thought you changed the words at first saying a Stone Giant hurtled a stone at Bilbo. [In reply to] Can't Post

I chuckled.

While true, the opening scene of the trilogy is old Bilbo writing the book :P



Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 7:05pm

Post #101 of 337 (3740 views)
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Why would that be? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
its much easier for people to overreact to things.


Much easier than what? I simply know what I like and what I don't like – it's as basic as that.


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:12pm

Post #102 of 337 (3809 views)
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Is it really necessary [In reply to] Can't Post

for the snarky comments about other posters?

keep smiling Smile


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 7:12pm

Post #103 of 337 (3742 views)
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LOL.Nice one :)) [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously now,that fandom/fan base/fan club cannot be for real.Laugh A TITLE of a movie changes from a canon to another canon one and immediately,a tempest of protests is stirring up. Out of a sudden the microcosmos they had created in their tiny little heads collapses like a tower made of paper.Overreactions,exaggerations and hybris against those who dared to "mess" with something so important, such as a movie title,is the unbelievable follow up.Crazy

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 7:13pm

Post #104 of 337 (3729 views)
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Good point. [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is the main reason I so disliked that part.

Still, Tolkien himself spoils LOTR by revealing in the Prologue that all four hobbits survived, so spoilers would be true to Tolkien.

Imladris18 1
Darkstone 0

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NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 7:20pm

Post #105 of 337 (3728 views)
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It is much easier than to look at things [In reply to] Can't Post

with composure,collectedness and a clear presence of mind.Overreaction is easy for everyone.Self-control and temperance is the tricky part.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 7:21pm

Post #106 of 337 (3764 views)
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I wasn't really trying to be snarky there. [In reply to] Can't Post

KS is just simply dead set against these movies and thinks they are a disservice to Tolkien.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯



(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 7:21pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 7:22pm

Post #107 of 337 (3706 views)
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It's just what people do [In reply to] Can't Post

That may not be the case for you but read any online replies or such and people almost always go over the top in their reactions when they don't like something.



SafeUnderHill
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:22pm

Post #108 of 337 (3719 views)
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There is new music in AUJ EE [In reply to] Can't Post

There is some new music in the AUJ EE by Howard Shore (that is not in AUJ TE), however most fans had already heard this music on the soundtrack CDs (it is from the Rivendell tracks). The remaining music in the EE was either songs (Man in the moon and Goblintown) or music copied from elsewhere in the TE.


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 7:23pm

Post #109 of 337 (3711 views)
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Pretty much [In reply to] Can't Post

What I was getting at.



Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:23pm

Post #110 of 337 (3722 views)
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'There And Back Again' - [In reply to] Can't Post

- has a meaning for fans familiar with Tolkien's books, but unfortunately it makes a little less sense for those who aren't. The same goes for 'The Desolation of Smaug'. (To be honest, there are people who don't even know what 'desolation' means. That might actually have had an effect on audience numbers. You never know.).


With a title like 'The Battle of Five Armies', people have some idea of what to look forward in the third movie. The battles of Middle-Earth have been a major selling point for the movies, and the new title hints that audiences are about to return to more familiar territory.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Apr 24 2014, 7:31pm)


wonderinglinguist
Lorien

Apr 24 2014, 7:29pm

Post #111 of 337 (3721 views)
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I'd like to think you weren't :) [In reply to] Can't Post

but it seems rude to reply to someone's post just to write negatively about them in 3rd person. Crazy That's all Angelic

keep smiling Smile


glor
Rohan

Apr 24 2014, 7:33pm

Post #112 of 337 (3704 views)
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Flicking through TORN [In reply to] Can't Post

..and viewing the high proportion of threads about the 3rd Hobbit film that are actually about BOFA, in fact most threads about the third film are about BOFA makes me wonder if we here, gave PJ the idea.

After all, it's not like anyone is shocked that the battle of the Five Armies is in this film or that it was not going to be a major part of the third film.

I mean it is not like it's being called the Reign of Oakenshield or Thorin lives or the Marriage of Kili and Tauriel

LaughLaugh


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 7:35pm

Post #113 of 337 (3699 views)
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My reply was to whoever replied to KS telling them why KS feels the way they do. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why Smile

Edit: It was to NecromancerRising.



(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 7:37pm)


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 7:43pm

Post #114 of 337 (3653 views)
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I know. [In reply to] Can't Post

And thanks for the clarification about his feelings towards these movies.Everything became clear to meSmile

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 7:44pm

Post #115 of 337 (3711 views)
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I leave the boards for ONE day... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue

Seriously though, this title change disappoints me greatly. It signals to me what has really already been confirmed through the first two films - that these are largely action blockbusters instead of the thoroughly intelligent and emotionally dramatic epics that were the LotR films.

I remember when the two Hobbit films "An Unexpected Journey" and "There and Back Again" were announced, and it filled me with such great joy. It was a signal that PJ & Co. understood Tolkien's small and innocent tale and that the films would honor the spirit of Bilbo's adventure. But, alas, a trilogy, over-the-top action spectaculars, and CGI excess were to follow.

None of this is to say that I haven't enjoyed the films. DoS, in particular, I love as a fun action spectacle. But the films have little spiritual connection to Tolkien's tale and that has taken time for me to get over.

The title "Battle of the Five Armies", while originating from a Hobbit chapter title, signals to me that action is the primary objective in this last film. Alas that it is so.

At least there is the positive news of the EE of DoS - which makes me very happy. Not only for the 25 minutes - but for new material from Howard Shore! That was a major letdown for AUJ EE (especially the tracked bit from FotR Frown).

Now if we can just get those cast & crew audio commentaries as well...

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 7:48pm

Post #116 of 337 (3697 views)
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How long has it been since creative bankruptcy caught you, Peter? [In reply to] Can't Post

What was the promised price? When any semblance of coherent storytelling and artistic integrity were gone, you would take your share of the treasure?

Well, whatever. At least we got three wonderful LotR films from this team before PJ went full-on Lucas.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 24 2014, 7:49pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 7:49pm

Post #117 of 337 (3666 views)
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Where was "intelligent and emotionally dramatic epics" in the book? [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, that stands in contrast to "Tolkien's small and innocent tale".

So what do you want, one or the other?


Faleel
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 7:50pm

Post #118 of 337 (3654 views)
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.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Full-on Lucas? When has he changed his original movies to fit his new vision over and over, and buried the original versions, and only released them in sub-par Laserdisc quality?


Faleel
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 7:51pm

Post #119 of 337 (3635 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

He wants one or the other, instead of neither.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 7:52pm

Post #120 of 337 (3658 views)
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That's a straw-man...a specific example from one filmmaker one does not instantly validate the qualities of the other. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 24 2014, 7:55pm)


Faleel
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 7:57pm

Post #121 of 337 (3616 views)
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.. [In reply to] Can't Post

But it does mean that PJ did not turn into a carbon copy of Lucas.


(This post was edited by Faleel on Apr 24 2014, 7:59pm)


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 7:59pm

Post #122 of 337 (3606 views)
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Seems many were expecting another LotR trilogy. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's something the Hobbit couldn't have possibly ever been. Now we see the disappointment of such individuals who did not accept this from the start.

It's not really fair to label PJ a Lucas when the source material changes between films in the way it does. Many like to claim that there's no heart or substance to the Hobbit movies, but I personally see a lot of heart and substance, perhaps even more than the book offers.



(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 8:00pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:02pm

Post #123 of 337 (3598 views)
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Definitely more than the book offers. [In reply to] Can't Post

The plight of the dwarves has much more depth than in the book for instance.


Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:04pm

Post #124 of 337 (3606 views)
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And anyone think the "only 13 minutes" affected sales? [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw some posts to the effect that it wasn't worth it for 13 minutes - I don't know what to think as I assume it's the Hobbit fans who really want the EE, and would buy irregardless. Or not. I know I questioned whether I should bother for only 13 minutes, but ultimately glad I did and the Appendices were great, well worth it.

Am also a little startled at how far TABA seems to be along as far as being finished? I thought the cut PJ showed WB and the press would be extremely rough, but it sounds as though TABA is farther along than just a mock-up of scenes with a lot of green screens.

"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:05pm

Post #125 of 337 (3590 views)
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And that's not what I said. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure how stating PJ'd gone "Full on Lucas", IE saying he was mishandling a prequel trilogy to a beloved fantasy trilogy, was stating he was literally mimicking Lucas' every move or creative decision.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




tsmith675
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 8:07pm

Post #126 of 337 (3318 views)
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Wow that's incredibly harsh. [In reply to] Can't Post

Way too harsh. It's a freaking name of a film. Relax.

Our destiny lies above us.


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:09pm

Post #127 of 337 (3296 views)
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As a matter of fact, I do find the small and innocent tale of Bilbo the Hobbit to be intelligent, emotional, and dramatic. [In reply to] Can't Post

As for using the word epic, most people misuse the word epic these days to mean "big, gargantuan, etc.". But Bilbo's journey is an epic, in the traditional sense of the word.

But PJ's Hobbit films adhere to the modern sensibilities of "big" films - turn everything into an action sequence with lots and lots of CGI (the biggest offender being the DoS Erebor finale).

It was absolutely possible to maintain the heart and emotion of his LotR films while stylistically adhering to Tolkien's smaller tale.

Again, this makes it sound like I hate the films. I don't at all (my DoS review is practically a rave) - I've just had to adapt my expectations.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:10pm

Post #128 of 337 (3309 views)
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Since the opening prologue of FOTR? [In reply to] Can't Post

A last alliance of Men and Elves marched against the armies of Mordor and on the slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of Middle-earth.

Jackson hasn't changed anymore than Lucas has.

It's we who've changed from innocent wide-eyed acceptance of first-time wonder to cynical critique of things that aren't like we remember them.

Excuse me....

ALL YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!! AND GET OFF CAPTAIN SALT'S LAWN TOO!!!!

Now where were we?

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 8:18pm)


LadyEmmaE
Bree


Apr 24 2014, 8:12pm

Post #129 of 337 (3281 views)
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Nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds very promising. Can't wait for the EE to be released! Smile


Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:12pm

Post #130 of 337 (3278 views)
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Agree about the general public [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't think to many "There and Back Again" would register - but love the idea of that being the name of a 3-box edition and love the idea even more that PJ is THINKING about (hope) a deluxe set (LOL - Can it really be true? Has the Lord of Middle Earth films really planned for my-dreamed of super-director-cut-deluxe-edition, sometime in the future? I can hope!Tongue)

Yes, a deluxe 3-set (or 6, bundled w. LOTR) nestled into a carved wooden case, with a high-res booklet of photographs and a figure of my choice created by WETA (Thorin, for me). And all the disks w. actual images instead of just plain.

"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07


BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 8:12pm

Post #131 of 337 (3288 views)
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I leave the web for a few hours and all hell breaks loose! :D [In reply to] Can't Post

I must admit I'd grown fond of "There And Back Again", but I also feel I'm warming up to "The Battle of the Five Armies" more and more with every minute that goes by. After all, it's the contents of the film that really matters.


"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau

(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 24 2014, 8:16pm)


CathrineB
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 8:15pm

Post #132 of 337 (3254 views)
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Alright [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard some fans has flipped out a bit over the title change? I liked "There and Back Again", but it's just a title.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:17pm

Post #133 of 337 (3263 views)
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Yep, LOTR-Lite [In reply to] Can't Post

It's what people wanted, it's what people got.

Only a few of us really wanted The Hobbit. Only a few of us wanted the tra-la-lally Elves or talking purses or animals serving food on their hind legs or speaking ravens.

"Wouldn't fit in with the LOTR movies" most people said.

So they got what they wanted and now they complain.

Sheesh....

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:20pm

Post #134 of 337 (3250 views)
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Beautifully said, bravo [In reply to] Can't Post

"It's not really fair to label PJ a Lucas when the source material changes between films in the way it does. Many like to claim that there's no heart or substance to the Hobbit movies, but I personally see a lot of heart and substance, perhaps even more than the book offers."

There's a reason the Hobbit sat on the shelf when I re-read LOTR roughly once a year. That's not to say there isn't a lot of depth to be found it the Hobbit, but for me it wasn't something I needed to revisit often, and there was a reason I was fairly indifferent when the news came that the Hobbit would be turned into a film.

Now the Hobbit is my favorite movie group, and I'm astounded what PJ & co. were able to build, flesh out, expand on. And the Hobbit book will always be on my shelves (can't say that for any number of books that are slated for a trip to the thrift store). A magical book, and magical films drawn from that book.


"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:20pm

Post #135 of 337 (3256 views)
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And the quality of debate/conversation [In reply to] Can't Post

on the boards has kind-of followed the quality of the films.

Did I mention PJ "changing anything"? I believe my exact phrases were "creative bankruptcy" and lack of artistic integrity, ETC, making the movies the anti-LotR in terms of narrative, characterization, and general quality. Nowhere I did list the general purist complaints. But nice strawman, again.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:21pm

Post #136 of 337 (3261 views)
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People have been accusing PJ of turning everything into an action scene since LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

In parts Hobbit actually does emanate heart and emotion, more so than the book, but the source material just doesn't offer that much in that regard, at least not until the end.

I feel like sometimes people are seeing the book through rose colored glasses.


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:25pm

Post #137 of 337 (3241 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

...since I just read the book a couple months ago, I would disagree with the rose colored glasses comment. So I'll just agree to disagree on what the book offers.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 8:27pm

Post #138 of 337 (3245 views)
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Exaggeration,Overreaction, [In reply to] Can't Post

Hybris,Cynicism and nothing more.I did mention these "virtues" before and it is funny how quickly and easily can be applied to some opinions here.

IT'S ONLY A TITLE.Crazy

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:28pm

Post #139 of 337 (3230 views)
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If you begin your conversation with a post like yours... [In reply to] Can't Post

... you should have expected some of the reactions you got.


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:34pm

Post #140 of 337 (3218 views)
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I think so too. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And the quality of debate/conversation on the boards has kind-of followed the quality of the films.


The quality of the conversation across the boards has *risen*, hasn't it?



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 24 2014, 8:38pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:36pm

Post #141 of 337 (3197 views)
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LOL! Yeah, it's verboten to post anything [In reply to] Can't Post

other than the usual hyperbole about TH films being the greatest achievement in the history of cinema.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:37pm

Post #142 of 337 (3177 views)
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Did I mention you mentioning PJ "Changing anything"? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And the quality of debate/conversation on the boards has kind-of followed the quality of the films.

Did I mention PJ "changing anything"? I believe my exact phrases were "creative bankruptcy" and lack of artistic integrity, ETC, making the movies the anti-LotR in terms of narrative, characterization, and general quality. Nowhere I did list the general purist complaints. But nice strawman, again.



You said:

How long has it been since creative bankruptcy caught you, Peter?

I replied:

Jackson hasn't changed....

You then replied:

Did I mention PJ "changing anything"?

No you didn't, and I didn't say you did.

Is it really too much to ask for you to actually READ my post before your respond to it?

Misquoting is a fallacy as well.

And reading comprehension is a virtue.

If you're just going to make up stuff and say I said it, do you really need me in this discussion? Maybe I could save time and just let you argue with yourself!

(I can hardly wait to see what you say I said next!)

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:37pm

Post #143 of 337 (3163 views)
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Seemingly not, as your "question" was just posted as a "statement". // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:39pm

Post #144 of 337 (3168 views)
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This is what you call irony. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 8:40pm

Post #145 of 337 (3188 views)
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A bit of hyperbole here isn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never ever seen a post claiming that the Hobbit films are what you describe.I wonder where that..."usual" derives from.Oh wait...Cool

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 8:40pm

Post #146 of 337 (3155 views)
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There's a big gap... [In reply to] Can't Post

...between greatest achievement in the history of cinema and creative bankruptcy, don't you think?

Your post was not a quality post that you seem to demand of others.


tsmith675
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 8:40pm

Post #147 of 337 (3160 views)
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I was wondering what he was referring to, as well. [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't know if he was replying to you, or someone else; I wasn't sure. He's getting all picky about the discussion on this board going downhill, and it basically seems like he's just picking fights. That's not very kindly, if you ask me.

Our destiny lies above us.


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 8:41pm

Post #148 of 337 (3171 views)
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It's almost like he straw man'd all of TORN. [In reply to] Can't Post

Laugh

Haven't seen this much passion in a while. It's kinda intense.



(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 8:42pm)


BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 8:42pm

Post #149 of 337 (3169 views)
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*gets popcorn, sits back and watches the drama unfold* [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread will be my dose of entertainment tonight! Laugh


"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:43pm

Post #150 of 337 (3160 views)
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Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post

We old people get all confused sometimes.

Of course the way he's been overusing the phrase he might be a college freshman who just learned about the strawman fallacy. "There's no one as arrogant as a young man who's just discovered an old truth."

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 8:46pm)


Avandel
Half-elven

Apr 24 2014, 8:44pm

Post #151 of 337 (3391 views)
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IMO that's kind of harsh [In reply to] Can't Post

"A perfect title thrown out the window in order to attract the masses with promises of overblown action.
That's why it was changed. Make no mistake.
They should have just called it "The Hobbit: One last attempt to make more money by appealing to the lowest common denominator"."

Not saying you're wrong, I just don't think it's that terrible. Or that it's terrible that both LOTR and the Hobbit made a healthy profit and yet so much is true, or pays respect to, the source. If WB etc. were really appealing to the lowest common denominator I'm sure they would have hooked Thorin up w. some female who happens to have a big chest and looks "hot", Kili and Tauriel would already have been making hay so to speak, Gandalf would have invented explosives and there would be a lot more fight scenes, the dwarves would all look like male models, and Bilbo and Smaug would have become good friends w. Smaug giving rides to the kiddies *sniff*.

The argument canon vs. not has gone round and round, but even PJ has said - and I can't remember if he was talking about AUJ or FOTR - that if they had failed, w. the second films he wouldn't have had to worry so much essentially. There's a burden of sorts that comes w. worldwide success, and from the sound of it re TABA, PJ is already feeling the heat of fan expectations. So there's a title that instantly tells ALL the public a pinnacle within the film - actually IMO it's wise in general to have a title for a book or film that denotes a meaning of some kind. I don't consider "There and Back Again" to be a perfect title, unless you have read the book and understand all the nuances (e.g. to me it's more than an actual journey, it's Bilbo's emotional arc "and if you return, you will not be the same". But I wouldn't know that if I hadn't read the book). The Battle of the Five Armies to me might not be the most interesting title in the world, but it certainly tells me immediately something of what to expect.

Also, no PR campaign is just going to have Bilbo skipping happily back to his hobbit-hole. It's going to have (possibly) themes of madness, war, sorrow, danger - so the title needs to tie into that.


"Richard Armitage’s performance has been one of the best things about the new trilogy, making you believe that a hairy dwarf, so often the comedy element of the LOTR films, can be a heroic, tortured, and dangerous badass." - Den of Geek, The Hobbit: There & Back Again, 7 Apr 2014 - 07:07


book Gandalf
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 8:47pm

Post #152 of 337 (3385 views)
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themes [In reply to] Can't Post

the problem with BO5A is that it reeks of action flick. TABA at least nodded towards the books little guy on a journey against all odds type story.

but at some point you have to accept these films have none of the themes of the book, on the surface it is the hobbit but the book is more about words and cunning and cleverness, the films are about weapons and explosions and set pieces. fine, bring it on, but dont pretend this is really the against all odds story of 'the hobbit'

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:47pm

Post #153 of 337 (3379 views)
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It's a good job that there are 10 other boards on the forum... [In reply to] Can't Post

Where you can find perfect grammar and high quality conversations taking place.



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 8:49pm

Post #154 of 337 (3447 views)
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Please Read My 9,600+ Posts [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never been dead set against the Hobbit movies. I am sorry you consider my recent posts "Dramatic" for they are honest expressions of my growing disappointment with what Peter has done. It is not the disservice to Tolkien that bothers me. It is the over stuffed adaptation of the story that is told by "The Hobbit".
I could list all of what I do not find acceptable but this would only be a reiteration of complaints made by others here on this forum. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Apr 24 2014, 8:51pm)


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 8:50pm

Post #155 of 337 (3372 views)
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That is true. [In reply to] Can't Post

 You can only imagine what is going to happen when the final Middle Earth movie is released Laugh

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:50pm

Post #156 of 337 (3376 views)
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And yet [In reply to] Can't Post

every single even slightly derogatory (or sometimes not even particularly derogatory) remark about the TH films has increasingly been responded to with the same outrage, dismissal and blaming of the poster. So no, I haven't. And "Intense" isn't the adjective I would have gone with this trend, though it does indeed start with the same letter.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 8:55pm

Post #157 of 337 (3379 views)
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It would be inappropriate [In reply to] Can't Post

if they do not go home again. A Three hour battle doesn't leave much time for the journey back to Hobbiton. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 8:55pm

Post #158 of 337 (3360 views)
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And [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall being one of the biggest cheerleaders of TH films before the trilogy decision, attempting to explain to posters who were bemoaning little details or complete unknowns (IE the crap in Radagast's hair or the existence of Itaril/Tauriel) that we should reserve judgement considering the job that was done by PJ and company with LotR. Funny, that, I believe goes the expression.

"Not tall, but broad and grim...wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem."




Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 8:57pm

Post #159 of 337 (3367 views)
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My apologies. [In reply to] Can't Post

I must be confusing you with another poster who literally is dead set against anything related to a Hobbit movie and is quite dramatic about it.

You just seem to not deem PJ's changes as a good thing and tend to lean towards a "truer" book adaptation, yes?



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 8:57pm

Post #160 of 337 (3322 views)
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I'm hoping..... [In reply to] Can't Post

...he gets to the "Argumentum ex Silentio" section of his textbook really soon.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 9:06pm

Post #161 of 337 (3303 views)
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"Reductio ad absurdum " [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And yet every single even slightly derogatory (or sometimes not even particularly derogatory) remark about the TH films has increasingly been responded to with the same outrage, dismissal and blaming of the poster. So no, I haven't.

(Emphasis mine.)

"every"? Exaggerate much?



In Reply To
And "Intense" isn't the adjective I would have gone with this trend, though it does indeed start with the same letter.


And an "Ad hominem" to boot!!

You're doing well! Can't wait for the contextomy!!

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 9:08pm

Post #162 of 337 (3315 views)
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But, that's not true. [In reply to] Can't Post

There are many of us who have expressed many disappointments, shortcomings, etc with the films, and have done so civilly without triggering a firefight.

You implied that PJ&Co did LotR right, but now are artistically bankrupt. This implies that PJ&Co have "changed" from quality filmmakers to artistically bankrupt like the likes of Michael Bay or Lucas. Darkstone brought up how even in the PROLOGUE for LotR there were some less-than-artistic genius lines, implying that perhaps he hasn't really "changed" a whole lot.

I'm not sure why this particular issue sparked this flurry of angry remarks.

Edit: I think it's still possible to be artistic while including (seemingly negative) buzzwords such as: spectacle, blockbuster, action-packed, heavy CGI, fun. The CGI, for instance, takes a ton of skilled work and IS an art medium in itself.



(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 9:18pm)


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 9:12pm

Post #163 of 337 (3328 views)
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I would feel better [In reply to] Can't Post

if Peter were telling the story that is in the book. I would not even mind additions and embellishments if they were not done at the expense of the "story" of the Hobbit. I fear Peter has lost his way in his own vision and it looks like he probably find the right path in the upcoming movie, what ever its name. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 9:22pm

Post #164 of 337 (3261 views)
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Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad somebody understood what I posted.

I mean, I love the films and I think PJ did good.

I have no idea what CS is on about.

Maybe it's just past his bedtime and he needs his winkie.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 24 2014, 9:24pm)


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 9:25pm

Post #165 of 337 (3272 views)
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Ah, okay. Fair enough. [In reply to] Can't Post

I, personally, still see much of the book in the films, and in places I think it even improves on it, but that's just my opinion. The only major gripe I really have so far is the final cat-and-mouse Smaug chase shenanigans at the end of DoS. I wished they would've stuck a little closer to the book on that.



(This post was edited by Imladris18 on Apr 24 2014, 9:25pm)


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Apr 24 2014, 9:26pm

Post #166 of 337 (3269 views)
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Didn't mind that at all [In reply to] Can't Post

I did mind the healing scene, though.


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 9:26pm

Post #167 of 337 (3223 views)
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For the longest time... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
BTW I was always confused with these acronyms, I read TABA as The Battle of 5 Armies, and get used to call the 3rd film like that while speaking and thinking. I remembered about There and Back Again only when I run into BOFA (like "oh yes, this is the acronym for the army thing, not TABA!"). I hope it will bring more people to the cinemas, to prove WB and other studios that it is worth to make films about Middle Earth.


...I used to read TABA as To Be Announced, but I couldn't figure out what the extra "A" stood for.Wink

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 9:39pm

Post #168 of 337 (3218 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I've always found the book immensely tragic. Bilbo loses so much. It seems like parts of him die during each stage of the journey. If he was a young hobbit the changes wouldn't be so bad. But the entire book seems like it's all about the old Bilbo dying. It makes me sad.

I can see how Tolkien might indeed have intended a deeper adult subtext what with his own entrance into middle age.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 9:43pm

Post #169 of 337 (3218 views)
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See, I didn't have a huge issue with it. It was a bit awkward, but I liked the ambiguity of how Tauriel felt at the end there. [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, I don't hate it. The engineer in me just has a hard time dealing with Thorin strolling down molten gold in a metal wheelbarrow and not getting toasted alive lol.



Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 9:43pm

Post #170 of 337 (3276 views)
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On the other hand... [In reply to] Can't Post

...when the first Sil movie is released the exact same people will be going "How could Jackson have so totally messed it up? The Hobbit movies were PERFECT!!!"

I guarantee it. I saw it happen with LOTR.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Patty
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 9:47pm

Post #171 of 337 (3303 views)
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Not happy. [In reply to] Can't Post

This seems further away from the "feel" of Tolkien and closer to a title that might sell movie tickets to the public that hadn't read the books. Oh well, I will see it regardless.

Permanent address: Into the West






Azimuth
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 9:55pm

Post #172 of 337 (3251 views)
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I wasn't here at the time of LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

But while reading Boards now (I started this year) I suspected that the same things were written about LOTR Smile And that now the same people are praising LOTR in contradiction to The Hobbit.

Quote
...when the first Sil movie is released the exact same people will be going "How could Jackson have so totally messed it up? The Hobbit movies were PERFECT!!!"

I guarantee it. I saw it happen with LOTR.

I understand that. I was disappointed after watching TT and ROTK (I liked FOTR because I read the book after seeing it in cinema). But after few months I started to like it and now I love those films.


Lio
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 9:57pm

Post #173 of 337 (3257 views)
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One "the" too many [In reply to] Can't Post

Oddly enough, that was one of my first impressions after learning about the new title.

"The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies"

There, I've fixed it! Laugh

On a less nitpicky note, I'm actually happy with the change and agree with PJ's reasons for it. "There and Back Again" is a lovely title but just doesn't fit with the third movie. It's better as a subtitle for the trilogy as a whole, I think.

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Lio
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 9:59pm

Post #174 of 337 (3241 views)
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Okay, I'll bite [In reply to] Can't Post

Which one would Tolkien have chosen and how do we know this? Tongue

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Azimuth
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 10:00pm

Post #175 of 337 (3249 views)
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What is wrong with that? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's good that something connected with professor Tolkien will be presented to a wider audience. It will increase the chances that people who are not familiar with his books will start to read them.

Quote
This seems further away from the "feel" of Tolkien and closer to a title that might sell movie tickets to the public that hadn't read the books. Oh well, I will see it regardless.



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 10:00pm

Post #176 of 337 (3321 views)
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That's true for some, not all. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was enchanted with LotR from the very first frame. I came out of the theater with my heart soaring. The same was true for TTT & RotK.

But I get what you're saying. These boards (and many others) were certainly populated with a large amount of criticism (though it certainly didn't seem to be shared by the general public or the critical community).

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 24 2014, 10:03pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 10:04pm

Post #177 of 337 (3312 views)
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A belated welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to have you here.

(And I'm thinking a lot of the "the original Star Wars trilogy was PERFECT!" people will similarly change their stance about the prequels once Star Wars VII comes out.)

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https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 10:06pm

Post #178 of 337 (3310 views)
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just not true [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
every single even slightly derogatory (or sometimes not even particularly derogatory) remark about the TH films has increasingly been responded to with the same outrage, dismissal and blaming of the poster


I have made a number of posts expressing my disappointment in the films including all the faults I found with them. Only one has been met with resistance that I found unaccepting. Replies to the rest were all perfectly respectful and calm.

So either you're honestly mistaken in your assessment (which you could admit to) or perhaps this is just hyperbole to engage a more um.. 'spirited' debate. :-)



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Patty
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 10:07pm

Post #179 of 337 (3319 views)
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Me, I would rather see a movie [In reply to] Can't Post

That stresses the heart of the story and is not aiming to make battles the prominent feature. Hopefully when the movie comes out that wont be the case but the title change IMHO is not a step in the right direction.

Permanent address: Into the West






Elizabeth
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 10:07pm

Post #180 of 337 (3386 views)
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It's a sellout because... [In reply to] Can't Post

...it represents a total change in emphasis, from Bilbo's journey of change and enlightenment to yet another shallow fan-boy action thriller. I am very disappointed (though not entirely surprised).








Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 10:11pm

Post #181 of 337 (3321 views)
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Letter #202 [In reply to] Can't Post

From a letter to Christopher and Faith Tolkien

11 September 1957

My heart and mind is in the Silmarillion, but I have not had much time for it. ....
It may amuse you to hear that (unsolicited) I suddenly found myself the winner of the International Fantasy Award, presented (as it says) 'as a fitting climax to the Fifteenth World Science Fiction Convention'. What it boiled down to was a lunch at the Criterion yesterday with speeches, and the handing over of an absurd 'trophy'. A massive metal 'model' of an upended Space-rocket (combined with a Ronson lighter). But the speeches were far more intelligent, especially that of the introducer: Clémence Dane, a massive woman of almost Sitwellian presence. Sir Stanley himself was present. Not having any immediate use for the trophy (save publicity=sales=cash) I deposited it in the window of 40 Museum Street. A back-wash from the Convention was a visit from an American film-agent (one of the adjudicating panel) who drove out all the way in a taxi from London to see me last week, filling 76 S[andfield] with strange men and stranger women -1 thought the taxi would never stop disgorging. But this Mr Ackerman brought some really astonishingly good pictures (Rackham rather than Disney) and some remarkable colour photographs. They have apparently toured America shooting mountain and desert scenes that seem to fit the story. The Story Line or Scenario was, however, on a lower level. In fact bad. But it looks as if business might be done. Stanley U. &: I have agreed on our policy : Art or Cash. Either very profitable terms indeed ; or absolute author's veto on objectionable features or alterations.

-JRR Tolkien

The Ackerman deal eventually fell through, but in the end he did sell the rights for cash and, as we know, by those terms the Tolkien Estate has no say in the films.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Leaf of Mirkwood
Bree


Apr 24 2014, 10:13pm

Post #182 of 337 (3313 views)
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Yaay!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Lots of DOS Extended footage!! LaughLaugh So glad its going to be a good amount of extra!


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 10:13pm

Post #183 of 337 (3324 views)
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It might have. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I saw some posts to the effect that it wasn't worth it for 13 minutes - I don't know what to think as I assume it's the Hobbit fans who really want the EE, and would buy irregardless. Or not. I know I questioned whether I should bother for only 13 minutes, but ultimately glad I did and the Appendices were great, well worth it.


But I think the confusion about the MANY the different versions of the AUJ EE that were available and the MANY different places where you could only get ONE of the versions, may have contributed to it too.Wink I've never had to use a chart to figure out which version of a DVD to buy before.Crazy I still bought it though, and I'm glad I did.

I'll buy the DOS EE too, but I sure hope they limit the versions that are available. I mean, for crying out loud, why can't they just make all of the different formats identical and make them all available at all of the retailers? That's got to be easier than all of the "who-shot-john" they went through last time.Unimpressed


Quote
Am also a little startled at how far TABA seems to be along as far as being finished? I thought the cut PJ showed WB and the press would be extremely rough, but it sounds as though TABA is farther along than just a mock-up of scenes with a lot of green screens.

I've never understood all of the things that have to be done to make a movie, but I figure that anything they're showing WB at this point is probably an extremely rough cut. They may have a lot of the green screen stuff worked out, but even then it's probably just placeholder imagery until the final product is ready.

I'd say it's like if you compare the DOS trailer footage to the final movie. They have backgrounds in place so that they have something to show people, but by the time the movie is ready to be released, they've replaced a lot of it with different, more touched-up backgrounds.

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



TheSexyBeard
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 10:15pm

Post #184 of 337 (3325 views)
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This threads gone nutz. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I prefferred "There and Back Again" as the original title but I can understand the logic of the change. It would be nice if "There and Back Again" is spoken in the film or in the very least used as the title of a DVD boxset like Jackson suggested.

I don't see how changing the title is selling out or Un-Tolkien "Battle of the Five Armies" suggests action, but atleast it hasn't been named anything more generic or unrelated. We actually got a phrase by Tolkien in the title. If it had been named something like "The Hobbit: Total War" or something I think I could understand the outrage better but each to their own, different strokes for different folks and all that.

Yes, my username is terrible.


Thranderz
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 10:25pm

Post #185 of 337 (3301 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see how so many people are actually criticising the film over a name change. Since when did a movie title affect it's content?

I simply walked into Mordor.


dormouse
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 10:27pm

Post #186 of 337 (3295 views)
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hopes for a share of the popcorn [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a bit like poking an ant's nest with a stick, isn't it.....

I've just finished writing a book, sort of. Hope to print it out tomorrow. I have a title. Publisher doesn't like it, wants another title. I shrugged shoulders, used my title for the final chapter (while quietly hoping to convert him once he's read the book. But if I can't, I can't. Funny things, titles..... It is the same book, though. I'm betting it's going to be the same film, too.

I've got used to TABA... but it's not as if 'The Battle of the Five Armies' isn't from Tolkien as well. I expect we'll all live...


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 10:30pm

Post #187 of 337 (3270 views)
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Lol. I think I'll join you. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here. I brought some soda to help wash the popcorn down.
Help yourself.Smile

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 10:33pm

Post #188 of 337 (3273 views)
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Highly disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

These are so far from action blockbusters. I kind of find that to be a fairly silly comment. There has been plenty emotion to it for lots of folks like myself. These were never going to be as dramatic as The Lord of the Rings and I would expect people should really have understood that going in.

They have honored that exactly and have had some action. Sure a few OTT moments but lets not use hyperbole to make it more than it is. I'm sure there are plenty of people that feel the same but I can assure you as a fellow fan there is plenty of Tolkien's take there and the emotion that comes with that.

How do we know that's all it signals? We haven't seen the movie yet. I'm sure there will be plenty of action but there will be a mix of other stuff as well.

I loved the tracked bits from FOTR. The blending of the music has been amazing.



Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 10:35pm

Post #189 of 337 (3256 views)
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So true. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It's a bit like poking an ant's nest with a stick, isn't it.....

I've just finished writing a book, sort of. Hope to print it out tomorrow. I have a title. Publisher doesn't like it, wants another title. I shrugged shoulders, used my title for the final chapter (while quietly hoping to convert him once he's read the book. But if I can't, I can't. Funny things, titles..... It is the same book, though. I'm betting it's going to be the same film, too.

I've got used to TABA... but it's not as if 'The Battle of the Five Armies' isn't from Tolkien as well. I expect we'll all live...

You can't judge a book by its cover and you can't judge a movie by its title either. It's the content that's really important.

Congratulations on finishing your book, btw. I bet it took a lot of hard work! Good luck with the rest of the publishing process.Cool

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 10:35pm

Post #190 of 337 (3270 views)
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Ah yes [In reply to] Can't Post

The lame Lucas comments. As someone said he's no place close to Lucas and saying he really makes it hard to take one seriously.



The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 10:37pm

Post #191 of 337 (3274 views)
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One must look at how this could benefit us ringers... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit trilogy yes I could go on for hours about the mistakes/changes, and yet I still love them. I mean who didn't tear up with shear bittersweet joy when AUJ opened with the Ian Holm sequence. Knowing that although it was not going to be perfect we had waited so long!
I digress, so the title is more catchy for casual movie goers and doesn't sing to us the way TABA does or inspire those bittersweet tears again, and yes it lacks heart, but we are getting even more ME more of the world and stories we love ( even if we are forced to ignore the faults, that is okay because the changes can never take my ME from me).
I would be lying if I didn't say that the prospect of what they will do with the third installment hasn't caused stress. But if this title brings in more movie goers, more money etc then we have a greater chance of the studio saying "hey Peter, we did so well with both trilogies we really think you should give the Silm a go!" And though we will have opinions on that as well, we will have more ME! More Tolkien! I suppose that is just how I look at it and though it may sound like selling out on the title; the movie will always be The Hobbit TABA to me. Besides it is the least of our problems when it comes to AUG and DOS but that is another post...or many.

Just a humble opinion from a 15 year lurker who finally got brave enough to
post Smile


(This post was edited by The Ranger Anduiel on Apr 24 2014, 10:41pm)


Lio
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 10:38pm

Post #192 of 337 (3278 views)
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Hmm! [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't go so far as to say which Tolkien would have chosen based on this (it seems he was only presented with the "cash" option here!), but this is an interesting piece of info! I wonder if there's a surviving script or story outline of the planned movie locked away in a vault somewhere? Tongue

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 10:40pm

Post #193 of 337 (3265 views)
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much will be determined on the editing room floor [In reply to] Can't Post

but this name change could signify an increase in the build up to the Bo5A leaving less time left over for the journey home (at least in the theatrical).

If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 10:41pm

Post #194 of 337 (3293 views)
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Called another one! [In reply to] Can't Post

Suggested "Battle of Five Armies" for film 3 back in July 2012. (Link)

"There and Back Again" always seemed a better (sub?) title for the entire trilogy.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Apr 24 2014, 10:44pm)


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 10:45pm

Post #195 of 337 (3325 views)
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I disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post

The content of the movie will be exactly the same even if it bore the title TABA.The emphasis would be the same as the scenes have already filmed.The Battle of 5 Armies was always going to be the center of gravity and the ultimate climax of this trilogy.And when i say BO5A i do not only refer to the battle itself but to everything surrounding it.The death of Smaug,the setup,the negotiations,the actual battle,and the aftermath which also includes the journey back home of Bilbo.

P.S.We have already seen Bilbo changing in the first 2 films and i am completely sure that we are going to witness more of how that journey affected him in the third movie.

P.S.1.Did Return of the King emphasize only on this event?Absolutely not.Did the Two Towers emphasize on them?Absolutely not.A change of title doesn't equal to change of the material.It is only marketing.Nothing more,nothing less."There and Back Again" was always the perfect title for the whole trilogy but not for any of the movies individually.

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


Bishop
Gondor


Apr 24 2014, 10:48pm

Post #196 of 337 (3290 views)
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That's the absolute reality, though [In reply to] Can't Post

It's Peter Jackson, and this is a battle with five armies. He will spend over half the film on it. Who doesn't expect him to deliver on overblown action?



Quote
A perfect title thrown out the window in order to attract the masses with promises of overblown action.



imin
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 10:52pm

Post #197 of 337 (3293 views)
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Howard Shore good news [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pleased to read there will be more HS music, the extra 25 mins of DOS im not too bothered about.

Name change of TABA - i prefer TABA but i think BoFA is more fitting for these action blockbuster films as i can see PJ spending about 1/2 the film on the battle so it is probably a more appropriate title for this individual film with TABA used for the over arching title for the full trilogy. At the end of the day it is only a name change, the content of the film will remain the same.

All posts are to be taken as my opinion.


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 10:53pm

Post #198 of 337 (3296 views)
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Congrats on coming out of lurkdom! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I agree with much of what you said, even though I haven't even been a fan as long as you have. Actually, I agree especially because I haven't been a fan as long as you have. I just discovered the wonders of ME both in the books and on film last year. I don't want it to be over yet and I'm glad that we are able to have as much of it on screen as we do, even with the "faults". And even though it will probably be a pretty long time before the rights to Silm are sold, if they ever get sold at all, I'd love to see it come to life on screen as well (TV mini-series! *crosses fingers*). Especially now that I've finally manage to find a copy of my own and will be able to read it for myself soon.

Again, congrats on coming out of lurkdom! You did an excellent first post, IMO.Smile

"But there’s empty cross, there’s an empty tomb
Fire and wind now sweeping in this tiny upper room
There’s a hungry world, there’s a risen King
Unlock the doors, what reason more could we ever need?
So sing with me, I dare you to
Because there’s an empty cross; there’s an empty tomb"
~Empty (Disciples)-sung by Dan Haseltine and Matt Hammitt



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 24 2014, 10:53pm

Post #199 of 337 (3286 views)
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Just to clarify... [In reply to] Can't Post

...calling the films "action blockbusters" is not meant to be as derogatory as it sounds. I speak more of the kind of movie like Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, The Avengers, etc. and less Transformers, 300, etc.

In all honesty, I know I'm coming off a lot more negative that I have any desire to. I've enjoyed the films quite a lot. It's just that I struggled to deal with the stylistic, visual, and dramatic differences of An Unexpected Journey from both the LotR films and the original novel - as well as some adaptation choices that have never quite worked for me (Azog, in particular). My response to The Desolation of Smaug benefited from my altered expectations - but whenever I go back and watch The Lord of the Rings (as I did just the other night), I'm reminded of how extraordinary those films are on a dramatic, technical, and overall cinematic level. Naturally, what follows is me waxing poetic about what I originally desired for the Hobbit films - smaller in scale and scope, but retaining the same emotional core (which is not to say I think PJ's Hobbit films are devoid of emotion - just to clear that up).

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 10:57pm

Post #200 of 337 (3262 views)
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I do as well [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course there are changes but there is plenty of the book there. At least I feel that way. Cool



Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Apr 24 2014, 11:00pm

Post #201 of 337 (3270 views)
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Peter Lucas! [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh boy...indecisive much?

Oh well, truth be told I much prefer the new title BUT nothing will save these films...nothing. Horrible cgi infested garbage!

Though you don't think so because of our "love everything pj does bubble" these films will be treated exactly as the sw prequels -they will be forgotten and mocked by all but a few die hards.

What a waste... Mad


(This post was edited by Avnar on Apr 24 2014, 11:03pm)


Skaan
Lorien


Apr 24 2014, 11:02pm

Post #202 of 337 (3253 views)
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Comedy gold [In reply to] Can't Post

 


The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire

Apr 24 2014, 11:04pm

Post #203 of 337 (3211 views)
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Thankyou! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I just *face palmed* I forgot about the rights!

Enjoy reading the Silm it's a rougher one than The Hobbit or LOTR but worth it!

And welcome to Middle Earth! There is no place better and you won't find a better group of people, save for maybe the Green dragon haha.


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 11:06pm

Post #204 of 337 (3254 views)
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The Hobbit is still that [In reply to] Can't Post

And far from some fanboy action thriller. The hyperbole used by some is really eye rolling.



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 24 2014, 11:11pm

Post #205 of 337 (3226 views)
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Got ya [In reply to] Can't Post

I follow ya now. That makes more sense and I will be less disagreeable to the say something like the first pirates film. Though, I still think these films have plenty of the emotions that I love from the book.

I do understand. I love these Hobbit films but I think the LOTR films are better. They do come from better material overall I think so that does help.

Hope I didn't come across to grumpy. It's just I find these Hobbit films less fun to talk about as things have gone on.



SirDennisC
Half-elven


Apr 24 2014, 11:14pm

Post #206 of 337 (3203 views)
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The Hobbit: Total War? I'd play that [In reply to] Can't Post

Total War being my favourite game franchise and all...


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 24 2014, 11:17pm

Post #207 of 337 (3191 views)
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Better than Reality TV // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Apr 24 2014, 11:51pm

Post #208 of 337 (3210 views)
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A reminder to discuss the topic, and not make digs at each other. [In reply to] Can't Post

A subthread with personal attacks has been removed from this discussion. Please keep the discussion about the film and not each other.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 12:18am

Post #209 of 337 (3152 views)
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Welcome! [In reply to] Can't Post

I just *knew* there was somebody out there...watching..

I could feel it....

Anyway, this is a good start but you've got 15 years of posting to catch up on! Looking forward to more!

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The Ranger Anduiel
The Shire

Apr 25 2014, 12:34am

Post #210 of 337 (3146 views)
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ha! [In reply to] Can't Post

No worries my archive on you isn't THAT large.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 12:41am

Post #211 of 337 (3198 views)
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Elizabeth is sincere [In reply to] Can't Post

You accuse people of hyperbole because you would diminish the value of their fairly expressed feelings. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 12:52am

Post #212 of 337 (3128 views)
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So. [In reply to] Can't Post

You *do* have an archive on me!

I knew it!


Wink

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https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 12:54am

Post #213 of 337 (3149 views)
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Exageration, Hubris,Cynicism and nothing more. [In reply to] Can't Post

How quick to cast stones.

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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(This post was edited by Kangi Ska on Apr 25 2014, 12:59am)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 12:55am

Post #214 of 337 (3140 views)
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Impressive [In reply to] Can't Post

But not surprising, for one of your discernment. Smile

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 12:57am

Post #215 of 337 (3134 views)
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Some view the name change [In reply to] Can't Post

as a sign of the final product's emphasis: all battle, no return to Hobbiton. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 1:12am

Post #216 of 337 (3119 views)
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Oh I do agree.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 1:16am

Post #217 of 337 (3117 views)
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Sir D., you make my day.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
Photobucket



Lindele
Gondor


Apr 25 2014, 1:16am

Post #218 of 337 (3121 views)
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Some have been [In reply to] Can't Post

talking doomsday since the first Hobbit rumors came out years ago and have been determined to be proven right ever since, even if their speculation was in fact proven wrong (as it most often was).


Joe B.
The Shire

Apr 25 2014, 1:21am

Post #219 of 337 (3133 views)
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it sounds like a title for a video game [In reply to] Can't Post

which is pretty much what these movies have become


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 25 2014, 1:43am

Post #220 of 337 (3122 views)
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Fun and entertaining? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sign me up.



Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 1:49am

Post #221 of 337 (3099 views)
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Wow! Is it free-beer night at Barli? Or just Bilbo opening the door to a tumble of dwarves? [In reply to] Can't Post

I leave for a few hours and come back to a HIVE! So now we can move on with TH3 and stop fretting about the DOS EE's length. And let's not forget: thanks to the Grey Pilgrim for breaking this, even before it got on the TORn homepage. Great work!


'And so: "The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies" it is.'
The "the" in the new title implies there are only 5 armies, doesn't it? To avoid confusion around these parts, BotFA=TH3: The movie coming out this December, BoFA=teh event?

The movie is pretty much made at the this point. In fact it was probably decided with the pickups last year. So I agree with those who believe the title is marketing-directed, not story or story alteration.


'As Professor Tolkien intended, “There and Back Again” encompasses Bilbo’s entire adventure, so don’t be surprised if you see it used on a future box-set of all three movies.'
Can't wait. The logic for the title change makes sense. But by box-set, what does it mean? Director's cut of the trilogy? More extras? Alternate retelling/editiion/plots?


'And there’s also The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug Extended Cut, which we’re in the process of finishing, with over 25 mins of new scenes, all scored with original music composed by Howard Shore.'
I'm holding PJ to that "over 25mins", especially the "over" bit please.

Still, after the meagre 13 we got for AUJ I am cautiously optimistic about getting the good stuff. Except for the truly obvious bits in that EE, I could barely discern where the extensions were, unlike the LotR EEs. Mad And my sis kept asking me if we're sure we got the right one.

I want the character stuff, and please no extensions for that she-elf or that 3-sided relationship thingy unless it's necessary!


'It’ll be a fun year!'
So much to look forward to!

Better get your last word in before the mods lock this Precious, folks!Tongue



Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Apr 25 2014, 1:55am)


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 1:50am

Post #222 of 337 (3121 views)
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I use the term [In reply to] Can't Post

because its apt for the description of the post I was commenting to. There is nothing more nefarious to what I meant other than that. I've seen most of her posts and she tends to be a fairly kind person but kind people can use hyperbole.



(This post was edited by Elessar on Apr 25 2014, 1:52am)


Glassary
Rivendell


Apr 25 2014, 1:50am

Post #223 of 337 (3107 views)
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Overall I'm o.k. with this change [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always felt that TABA was a better title for the overall trilogy arc.
So basically changing the name to what the film is going to be about
seems a bit more logical.
Also I can see PJ and the studios using the TABA name for complete
trilogy sets in the future.

Glad we get more Howard Shore scoring and what looks to be 25 min of
additional footage for the EE.

While I do at times have mixed feelings about what can appear to be the
money grab I understand it. Without the LOTR films making alot of $$
there would be no Hobbit films. Backers done put up the funds unless they
see themselves getting something back.


Joe B.
The Shire

Apr 25 2014, 2:07am

Post #224 of 337 (3098 views)
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sometimes [In reply to] Can't Post

but, like most video games, only rarely provocative, moving, or memorable


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 2:08am

Post #225 of 337 (3095 views)
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I'll take the Dr. Pepper [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Apr 25 2014, 2:08am)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 2:12am

Post #226 of 337 (2877 views)
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Good call // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:19am

Post #227 of 337 (2897 views)
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what part is hyperbole [In reply to] Can't Post

I would want to know what I might express that would seem sincere to me and hyperbolic to someone else.

I didn't sense any hyperbole in her comment.



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 2:39am

Post #228 of 337 (2888 views)
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Calling it [In reply to] Can't Post

a fanboy action thriller. Just because it has some action in it even a little more than the LOTR doesn't make it a fanboy action thriller. I'd give ya the Transformers films or something like that but not these films. Or even some of the Lucas stuff I find to be bordering on Hyperbole. The movie has action and CGI but neither are those comments.



(This post was edited by Elessar on Apr 25 2014, 2:40am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 2:49am

Post #229 of 337 (2858 views)
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Can we turn this WHOLE Thread into a Mini-SERIES?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


SirDennisC
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 2:52am

Post #230 of 337 (2840 views)
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You honour me. [In reply to] Can't Post

BlushThank you Sir V.SmileHeart

... and Lurker too.Smile


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:03am

Post #231 of 337 (2840 views)
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And it will be titled "The War Addressing The Revisions And Titles") or thWaRT for short // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 3:11am

Post #232 of 337 (2859 views)
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ah, thanks. [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't have used that term. (I hate the term fanboy and fangirl)

It's such a treacherous path... finding a way to express what can often be heartfelt opinions without treading on the toes of those who disagree with our opinions. I often look at past history and cut some people a lot of slack... and other people no slack at all.

I, personally, would cut Elizabeth a lot of slack for her use of the term. I don't think she tosses those terms around loosely. Or at least not in my observation.



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Apr 25 2014, 3:15am

Post #233 of 337 (2846 views)
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Nice! Root beer for me, please. [In reply to] Can't Post

We playground monitors do appreciate some refreshment. Wink


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:21am

Post #234 of 337 (2871 views)
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Seriously, I do feel people should relax a little... especially when you think about the Transformers [In reply to] Can't Post

Afterall, unlike the Decepticons and Autobots, the LotR and TH movies did not get Michael Bayed or have some similar tragedy inflicted on them. That is something to be thankful for.

And I am not saying this lightly. I grew up watching the Transformers cartoon, and I LOVED those robots. I was so looking forward to seeing a live-action movie on them. Yeah, the visuals were great, but since the first Bay Transformers, I have not watched any other Transformer movie. Yes, they are THAT bad. By comparison, even the cartoon series and the animated "Transformers: The Movie" (1986) are masterpieces. I wished time could be turned back and the Bay movies wiped out of existence, but keep the transformer visuals. Tongue


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Apr 25 2014, 3:22am)


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:25am

Post #235 of 337 (2860 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't care for the term either. Its one that can be as far as pop culture go fairly offensive.

It is. I know I try and fail at times with my own wording. I guess I've grown a little worn out with some of the ways people use certain terms.

I agree and I'm not really upset with her. I was actually surprised she would use a term like that to be honest especially when referring to it as selling out, which I totally disagree with.



Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 3:30am

Post #236 of 337 (2833 views)
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The Turtles are next. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:34am

Post #237 of 337 (2825 views)
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Transformers [In reply to] Can't Post

The Transformers movies have all been for me what I expected. So I haven't walked away upset with them. They're not gonna win oscars for acting or anything but I've found all of them enjoyable but the are just plain cheese flicks that you sit back and give yourself a brain break. I find nothing like that at all in the same universe when it comes to The Hobbit.



Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 25 2014, 3:35am

Post #238 of 337 (2824 views)
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I think BotFA has the best chance to hit all those marks if the previous 2 have not done so for you yet. [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 3:36am

Post #239 of 337 (2830 views)
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I knew what awaited the minute Bay's name was attached. [In reply to] Can't Post

Unsure

At that moment, I knew that it wasn't going to really be a Transformer movie. It was going to be a Michael Bay movie loosely using the general story points of the Transformers as a template.

And that's exactly what we got. It was horrifying.

I have my issues with the execution of The Hobbit on film, but at least we didn't that level of epic disaster thrust upon us.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 25 2014, 3:38am)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:46am

Post #240 of 337 (2819 views)
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I know! And I'm cringing... / / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 3:50am

Post #241 of 337 (2821 views)
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I honestly wish fans of 80's cartoons could get some kind of legal injunction... [In reply to] Can't Post

...preventing Bay from getting his filthy hands on anymore of these beloved franchises. Frown Somebody has to stop him.

Sly

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:52am

Post #242 of 337 (2833 views)
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The sad thing is, I wanted to see live-action transformers so much, I left all standards at the door [In reply to] Can't Post

And regretted it. I tried sitting through No 2 when it was on free-to-air broadcast, but nope, did not last 5 mins; not ever again will I watch one of these while they are under Bay. I cannot fathom how he can get to no 4 and still plans on 5 and 6? Crazy


Exactly. At least we got movie adaptations that the book-lovers can also enjoy without wanting to lynch PJ... well, at least for some of us Smile

Quote
I have my issues with the execution of The Hobbit on film, but at least we didn't that level of epic disaster thrust upon us.






Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



tsmith675
Gondor


Apr 25 2014, 4:05am

Post #243 of 337 (2820 views)
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The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies. [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit: There and Back Again
The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies
The Hobbit: Into the Fire

I like The Battle of the Five Armies as a title more than just The Battle of Five Armies. Into the Fire would not have been a good girls. There and Back Again just didn't make sense for the third film.

There and Back Again will be perfect as the entire trilogy being The Hobbit: There and Back Again. I love that. Let's just face it:

The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies is the title that makes the most sense.

Our destiny lies above us.


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 4:14am

Post #244 of 337 (2828 views)
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Raise your hand if you feel like you overreacted a little bit at this news. *raises hand* [In reply to] Can't Post

Blush

Wow. I got quite snippy at PJ & the films in my earlier posts, didn't I? The Hobbit trilogy hasn't been all I'd hoped for, but I've quite enjoyed it (especially AUJ EE and DoS). Just goes to show how temper (today was a mess of incredible proportion for me) and negativity can lead to overreaction.

I don't care for the title, but what the hey - it's a title. The whole thing is The Hobbit: or There and Back Again anyway. So be it.

The best news of the day is definitely about the EE of DoS. I can't wait to see what was added back in (and what new music Shore has cooked up!). Though AUJ didn't have much added back in, IMO the theatrical cut already had some stuff that would typically have been saved for the EE. And now (er, since December that is), with the additions put back in, the film feels quite well balanced.

I'm hoping for some material that will slow down DoS a touch and allow some breathing room for character development. The film was a bit too breathless in spots (no doubt making up for the slower pace of AUJ). The film did have some poignant moments between characters, and I'd like to see that greatly expanded upon in the EE.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


cats16
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 4:30am

Post #245 of 337 (2797 views)
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No worries! [In reply to] Can't Post

I read the post again, in case he did say that.

Understand you perfectly. Smile


cats16
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 4:55am

Post #246 of 337 (2781 views)
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Congrats, dormouse!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Glad to hear you've finished it! Can't wait to hear details when the time comes. Smile


morgul lord
Rivendell


Apr 25 2014, 5:37am

Post #247 of 337 (2834 views)
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(Disappointed) thoughts on BOFA, BOTFA, and TABA... [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't get into it, but I thought There And Back Again was a perfect title. It was always my favourite of the 3 by far, and I couldn't wait... and now it'll never be called that.

But my main complaint is this extremely long, clunky title that doesn't roll off the tongue. The worst part is the extra "THE". I could probably get used to The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies (BOFA)... but The Hobbit: The Battle of THE Five Armies (BOTFA) is just ridiculously bad.

Also, please STOP saying how great it is that There And Back Again will be the title of the trilogy. Because I've got news for you... IT WON'T. No one will EVER call it that. It's already called The Hobbit trilogy, and that's what it will always be called. There And Back Again will not catch on, or become common usage. Nor does it appear as a subtitle on the screen. So at MOST, it might be printed on the box of a future box set. But no, There And Back Again will never become the title of the trilogy, except in maybe a technical official sense that no one ever says.

I generally trust PJ and give him the benefit of the doubt, and I'll get used to this eventually, but I honestly disagree with him this time. Despite his reasoning, I think he chose a much worse title.


(This post was edited by morgul lord on Apr 25 2014, 5:41am)


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 5:49am

Post #248 of 337 (2800 views)
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Opposite for me... [In reply to] Can't Post

For the longest time, I mistakenly thought the battle was called "The Battle of THE Five Armies". When I found out that I had added the extra "the" in my head, I was never able to adjust to saying it the correct way and it felt clunky to me. Cool Funny world, eh?

In point of fact, I would have preferred TABA as the title - but what's done is done. As for it never actually being used as a title for the trilogy - true enough, but everybody calls the book "The Hobbit" as well. "There and Back Again" is present on one of the opening pages, but I doubt many readers even register that honestly. To me, the trilogy will be The Hobbit, or There and Back Again - official or no. In the world according to me, it is so. Tongue

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 25 2014, 5:56am)


Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 7:03am

Post #249 of 337 (2758 views)
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No, of course not [In reply to] Can't Post

But well, I did not expect the intensity of the mutation Bay did on... and the abject purile nature of the script. Well, yeah, I was not expecting any award winning moments, and I can leave my brain at the door as well as the next person and just enjoy the action, which I will admit, I did. But when my brain starts liquifying even when it's not in the theatre with me, that's a very big sign to bail.


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



Lurker in the Mirk
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 7:07am

Post #250 of 337 (2744 views)
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I hear ya! / / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.

Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III



DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 7:12am

Post #251 of 337 (3237 views)
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I wonder ... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Oh well, truth be told I much prefer the new title BUT nothing will save these films...nothing. Horrible cgi infested garbage!

Though you don't think so because of our "love everything pj does bubble" these films will be treated exactly as the sw prequels -they will be forgotten and mocked by all but a few die hards.


Excluding the obvious difference in tone between the books, how much of the difference we see between the two film trilogies is down to the fact we have all aged 10+ years between them. The consensus is (or at least appears to be) that the LOTR trilogy is superior (in most aspects) compared to the new Hobbit trilogy. Yet, looking back, the LOTR films are full of dodgy CGI (Watcher in the Water, Treebeard, Fangorn, Saruman falling to his death), ridiculous stunts (mainly involving an Oliphaunt), iffy humour (Gimli ...), long action sequences, little sense of danger when fighting mass groups of orcs, poor characterizations (Faramir, Denthor, Legolas, Gimli) and sacrilegious changes from canon (Arwen-Aragorn-Eowyn, Glorfindel, Frodo sending Sam home) .

Is there *really* any difference between the two trilogies?

Could it just be that we've all aged a bit, and what we're looking for in a film adaptation has also changed? Has our maturity changed how we visualise, expect and understand the characters and places of Middle-earth? Perhaps we were all a little more open to LOTR because this will the first proper attempt at an adaptation. 10 years later, perhaps we all grew optimistic of something that better represents the book but also uses the same techniques that we liked in the LOTR trilogy? Are we too fond of the old trilogy, and so it's easier to dismiss the new trilogy?

Ultimately, would our 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy?

(Note, this isn't necessarily my actual opinion. I'm just making some suggestions. "We" doesn't refer to anyone or any group in particular.)



Arannir
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 7:40am

Post #252 of 337 (3210 views)
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I want to highlight this. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In parts Hobbit actually does emanate heart and emotion, more so than the book, but the source material just doesn't offer that much in that regard, at least not until the end.

I feel like sometimes people are seeing the book through rose colored glasses.




I am a great Tolkien devotee - but all those complaining that it is impossible to ciritisize PJ on this board should read up what some people have to listen to who dare to complain about the book or just question a detail of it.

No, one does not have to be a action-flick loving fankiddy who has no sense for true art to be critical of a lot in Tolkien's works. If some people would look beyond the borders of the Fan-Shire once in a while they would see that a lot of very intelligent people and critics have not that much love for Tolkien. And not all this criticism can be dismantled by saying "They did not get it" as it is often used on boards like this to react to criticism concerning the Professor.



“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."

(This post was edited by Arannir on Apr 25 2014, 7:51am)


Arannir
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 7:46am

Post #253 of 337 (3209 views)
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I do not want to comment... [In reply to] Can't Post

... on whether your post or the reactions to it where fine, too harsh or whatnot.

But I have to add here that I have read this several times now. And it is true - some people here have a questionable way in reacting to other people's opinions.

But what is also true is two things. 1) It is really a minority who does this. 2) It goes both ways... people defending or liking certain aspects of the movies have repeatedly been called fanboys, apologists, un-cultured kids, etc.

People of both colors hurt the atmosphere and the level of discussion on TORN imho.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.

"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at."


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 10:22am

Post #254 of 337 (3184 views)
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DanielB: [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it is just that we have 'aged a bit'. I do think that DoS rather lost it with all the OTT and what I feel is badly done comic-book action scenes, despite the wonderful visuals, notably Smaug and some of the locations. For me DoS is completely different in style from the LotR trilogy, despite the attempts to shovel in links to that trilogy – which I feel have created the opposite effect to that intended.

DoS does not have a 'heart', or a 'Tolkien feel' to it (unlike AUJ, despite its many deviations from the book, PJ 'fun' moments, etc.).

For me this is all the more a pity because TH had everything going for it at the start – most of all a great cast for the main characters that was on the whole better than that for LotR, e.g. Martin Freeman, Richard Armitage, Ian McKellen and Ken Stott. That cast has been wasted in DoS, which contains few and all too brief character moments.

I realize that The Hobbit book is not particularly filmable, except as a children's film, but if the film-makers wanted to make changes to attract an adult audience, why not give DoS more of a LotR 'feel', as AUJ did (perhaps minus the 'gross' moments), and include character expansion for all the main canon characters, instead of creating pointless elf-action scenes that add nothing meaningful to the film?

Going down the route of all-action DoS blockbuster, presumably to compete with Marvel all-action blockbusters and the like, has been a mistake in my view.


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 25 2014, 10:32am)


BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 10:47am

Post #255 of 337 (3176 views)
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Poll: TABA or BOFA? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...;;page=unread#unread


"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau

(This post was edited by BlackFox on Apr 25 2014, 10:51am)


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 10:59am

Post #256 of 337 (3139 views)
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I don't buy the "we've matured" argument [In reply to] Can't Post

"how much of the difference we see between the two film trilogies is down to the fact we have all aged 10+ years between them.
Is there *really* any difference between the two trilogies?
Could it just be that we've all aged a bit, and what we're looking for in a film adaptation has also changed?

Ultimately, would our 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy?"


I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.

It's also a theory that curiously presumes Jackson hasn't aged a day. If we've all matured in what we're expecting from an adaptation of Tolkien, why hasn't he?

Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.

(PS As an aside and on-topic Crazy , I think BotFA is a far better title than TaBA which was, after all, both inappropriate and, yes, a little dull)




"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Apr 25 2014, 11:09am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 11:29am

Post #257 of 337 (3146 views)
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Obviously ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.


Opinions are opinions, and some people do find this trilogy less satisfying than the original, regardless. I should have made a note of that above. Just to make it clear, I'm not suggesting we *should all* like the movies.


Quote
I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.


I don't buy this though, I'm afraid. Regardless of how old you are, your opinion changes on a daily basis. You might already have been "mature" when the LOTR trilogy was released, but it doesn't mean your opinion stops maturing once you reach adulthood. Otherwise, you wouldn't go off food, films, music, people, politics or trends. Regardless of how old you are, your opinion of the LOTR films has greatly changed over the 10 years - you might like it less or more to varying degrees - it hasn't remained constant since 2003. Just like your opinion of The Hobbit trilogy will be different to how it is in 2024. 10 years is an awful long time. If you've read the books since you'll understand the characters more. If you've watched the films since you might like them more. Opinions are in flux, there not solid and they do not stay the same.

So, would your 10-year-younger self love The Hobbit movie trilogy just as much as The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy? Or, alternatively, what will your 10-year-older self think of The Hobbit movie trilogy?



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 25 2014, 11:37am)


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 25 2014, 11:58am

Post #258 of 337 (3087 views)
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The maturity thing [In reply to] Can't Post

is a thing that I have perceived most prominently among people who were teenagers when LotR movies came out and who then read the books after.

I don't think it explains all the differences of opinions, though, just maybe some. I think one of the biggest sources of differences of opinion comes from the differences in the source material. For decades before PJ's movies, the Tolkien fanbase differed a bit by preference for The Hobbit, LotR, or the Silmarillion. It has never really been the case that all fans of one story were equally fans of the other two.

If all the world's a stage then who's writing the script?


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:17pm

Post #259 of 337 (3088 views)
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I don't know about that [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
IDoS does not have a 'heart', or a 'Tolkien feel' to it (unlike AUJ, despite its many deviations from the book, PJ 'fun' moments, etc.)./reply]

I think that is highly off the mark. Obviously ones mileage may vary but IMO it has both of those in plenty.



Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 12:18pm

Post #260 of 337 (3094 views)
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Hmm, I think we change more rapidly when we're young... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Regardless of how old you are, your opinion changes on a daily basis. You might already have been "mature" when the LOTR trilogy was released, but it doesn't mean your opinion stops maturing once you reach adulthood...
Regardless of how old you are, your opinion of the LOTR films has greatly changed over the 10 years"


No, I don't believe it has, to be perfectly honest Smile I was in my late 20s when I saw the first trilogy in cinemas and, yes, you're right, my opinion of them (both in their particulars and in the whole) has not remained entirely ossified over the intervening decade (for example, I suspect I'm a little more irked by Gimli tip-toeing over the bones now than I was back then) but neither has it changed significantly. What I feel now for the trilogy is pretty much what I felt then and I think that's at least partly down to the age at which I first saw them.

Yep, I think "how old you are" is important when considering changing opinions. I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that our attitudes, proclivities and tastes change at just as rapid a rate in our sixties, say, as they do in our teens and twenties. That's just human nature.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:25pm

Post #261 of 337 (3076 views)
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But… [In reply to] Can't Post

It isn't 'highly of the mark' for me. I cannot help that I (and others I know) think like this. It is to do with gut reaction. I suppose it all depends on one's tolerance levels and personal preferences – I am certainly hoping the next film will improve for me.


In Reply To
I think that is highly off the mark. Obviously ones mileage may vary but IMO it has both of those in plenty.



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:25pm

Post #262 of 337 (3087 views)
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Maturity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think there may be some weight to this argument if you're referring to people who were 15 when they saw the original trilogy but, from what I can glean from the odd reference here and there, many of us were already adults when we saw them and our tastes therefore haven't changed anywhere near as greatly (if at all) in the intervening period.


Come on now. You don't think even adults opinion on things change as they get older? I was 21 when FOTR came out and 23 when the ROTK came out. I can assure you I am not the same person as I was then. If someone is then that is really beyond sad they have not grown as a person at all. I will say there are things over the last ten years in my readings of the books and watching of the movies that I like more now than I did at the start as well as things I like less now. I will highly disagree that people haven't changed much as a whole in how they feel in 10 years. We also tend to develop more rose colored glasses for things we're fond of as time passes. Faults become less of an issue and the movie we play in our mind has a that tint to it. The same will happen with The Hobbit films for lots of folks. Some will stay stuck in their hate and I find that a sad thing.


In Reply To
Nope, I think the truth is simply that many of us regard this current trilogy as inferior because it is. It is far more prone to ludicrous action, infantile humour, questionable design choices, disregard for the text etc than the original (yes, flawed) trilogy ever was.


I think it depends on how you use the term many. I agree its not as good but then again it was never going to be. Even with material from the appendices it was never going to be. As much as I love The Hobbit and as great a book/work as it is the book is a lesser work than The Lord of the Rings IMO.

So I agree with you in a sense of what I said but it is not a lesser Trilogy just because things are different.



*



Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:28pm

Post #263 of 337 (3072 views)
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That's not what you said though [In reply to] Can't Post

Read the quoted part again. You stated it as if it was fact. You left out an "I" or IMO stating that you felt that way and because of that it reads as fact. I know the post is your opinion without reading the I but as someone who feels differently it creates a point of me going, "wait a mintue"!

In the end I understand people feel different and they are more than welcome to do so. I feel these two movies so far have tones of emotion, heart, and plenty of Tolkien. I wouldn't say Tolerance levels but personal preferences for sure.



Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 12:34pm

Post #264 of 337 (3081 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

"The maturity thing is a thing that I have perceived most prominently among people who were teenagers...
(But) I don't think it explains all the differences of opinions...
I think one of the biggest sources of differences of opinion comes from the differences in the source material...
It has never really been the case that all fans of one story were equally fans of the other two."

Can't disagree, Escapist Smile

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Apr 25 2014, 12:47pm)


KW
Rivendell

Apr 25 2014, 12:34pm

Post #265 of 337 (3072 views)
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"Mods up," as some are accustomed to say! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It's also a theory that curiously presumes Jackson hasn't aged a day. If we've all matured in what we're expecting from an adaptation of Tolkien, why hasn't he?




Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 12:41pm

Post #266 of 337 (3053 views)
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Dear me… [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought I had inserted sufficient 'I's (or similar) to make it entirely clear that it was my opinion – which it certainly is. There is a limit to how much one can do this without making sentences read extremely awkwardly.

With ME, it is certainly to do with tolerance levels. I am not a 'whining book lover' (as someone else put it the other day), and could accept many changes and 'gross' moments in AUJ, but in DoS I FEEL the film-makers simply went too far for MY taste.

Unimpressed


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 12:44pm

Post #267 of 337 (3067 views)
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Elessar [In reply to] Can't Post

"Come on now. You don't think even adults opinion on things change as they get older?"

Sorry, Elessar. Much of what I'd say in reply to this I've already said to DanielLB above and I don't want to clog the thread up with repeated statements. Is that ok? Essentially, yes, I believe adults tastes do change but nowhere near at the same rate as teenagers' do.

"We also tend to develop more rose colored glasses for things we're fond of as time passes. Faults become less of an issue and the movie we play in our mind has a that tint to it."

Yes, I believe you're right here Smile I'd agree that there's a general tendency to become more forgiving over time of films that really affected us when we were younger.

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 1:00pm

Post #268 of 337 (3042 views)
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I's and such [In reply to] Can't Post

You did but that comment still read like a statement of fact. It did to me anyways.

Fair enough.



Noria
Gondor

Apr 25 2014, 1:27pm

Post #269 of 337 (3028 views)
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This is not too surprising given the "Into the Fire" thing [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm fine with the new title just as I was fine with the old one. The movie itself matters more to me than it's title.

After seeing AUJ I realized that these movies were neither going to be LotR: The Prequel or a purist rendition Tolkien's children's tale. They have their own tone and style and I like them as they are.

Great news about the DoS: EE.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 1:29pm

Post #270 of 337 (3017 views)
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Ooh! We have a playground! [In reply to] Can't Post

*in an Ori voice*

Do they have any slides?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


DanielLB
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:06pm

Post #271 of 337 (3006 views)
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10 years isn't very rapid ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yep, I think "how old you are" is important when considering changing opinions. I'm afraid you're not going to convince me that our attitudes, proclivities and tastes change at just as rapid a rate in our sixties, say, as they do in our teens and twenties. That's just human nature.


Has your opinion of the books ever changed - perhaps a particular character or plot?

Just for the record, and as I said in my original post, this isn't necessarily my opinion. I find it hard to believe that 10 years could pass without change occurring; but the change in tone is probably largely related to opinions and views.



Lindele
Gondor


Apr 25 2014, 2:09pm

Post #272 of 337 (3020 views)
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I truly believe [In reply to] Can't Post

that if none of us had ever seen PJ's The Lord of the Rings we would all feel VERY differently about The Hobbit films.
Expectations.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:23pm

Post #273 of 337 (2982 views)
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I think that it's just a matter of emphasis, Kangi. [In reply to] Can't Post

As a title, There and Back Again is anti-climactic and works better as an over-all title for the film trilogy. The Battle of the Five Armies is more dynamic and ties directly into the story's action-climax.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 2:32pm

Post #274 of 337 (2975 views)
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Spot on [In reply to] Can't Post

I think.

Though I will disagree with you on the CGI looking like a 90's video game.



Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:47pm

Post #275 of 337 (3014 views)
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I've wondered this... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but to accept it would be to think that this 10 year older self can't find things to love in movies or life or whimsically told tales... or whatever is 'keeping' me from enjoy TH as much as I did LOTR.

I don't believe that's true. I'm finding cinema all the time that I love... and everyone once in a while a thought erupts while I'm watching it... "That's how you make a good movie!"

I do believe that a 10 years after effect may be in play.

If can just list thoughts that I've wondered about that may be in play... (I will use the term 'filmmaker' to include everyone involved with the film including Tolkien Enterprises, WB, and MGM)

----Audiences as a whole are different 10 years later. Not more mature (or too old to enjoy!) but different. People view movies differently than they did 10 years ago. Filmmakers are looking to different demographics to make money and different ways to draw those demographics in.

----The popular style of large movies (as opposed to indie films or rom-coms, etc) is different. I see current patterns in large action blockbusters that I feel influenced TH. (part of the benefit of being old is that one has seen trends come and go)

----Peter Jackson (and everyone else that worked on both LOTR and TH) are different 10 years after. Remember, these are thoughts that I wonder about - not ones with proof. But everyone changes over time and what one person can do at 20 they aren't so keen to do at 30. What one person can do when their children are small isn't so easy when their kids are older. I remember someone saying that working on LOTR just about killed many of the people who did what had to be done. I know that when I commit beyond levels of endurance, I can produce something very wonderful. But the drive to do that may not be so evident the next time I attempt a similar project. I know the cost now. The newness of something that pushed me to work till I dropped isn't so new anymore. I don't know what differences were evident in those who worked on TH - but I know there *were* differences.

---At one point, Peter Jackson didn't want to direct TH. I can remember that fans here were insistent that he be the director. People asked us to pray for him to direct it. I was greatly put off by that. What if there were reasons that kept PJ from wanting the director's seat? Who are we to decide what is best and force him to do it? I don't know that the fans forced him to. But in some respects, it's highly possible he took the director's seat because he was pretty much forced to. I'm sure he took it with all good will and willingness to do his best. But still...

---We are dealing with WB rather than NL. How differently does WB do business than NL did? How many of the things evident in TH that don't sit well with me are the result of mandates set by WB ... not artistic choices by PJ?

---I am different. Yes. I am and everyone else. The whole world is different. Who knows how that plays in. I know that I was looking forward with great eagerness to be part of the excited fanbase following the lead up to the movies. Instead, I became so thorough maddened and disgusted with the level of intercourse on this Hobbit board that I left TORn for months at a time. I even signed myself out, at one point, so I would not be tempted to post. I watched many of my contemporaries on TORn's Message Boards leave around that same time. Some never came back. All *joy* I had in a Tolkien-movie fan base was sucked out of me long before I ever saw the movies. I don't think they would have kept me from loving a movie but maybe they did. I won't refuse to consider it.

In the end, I don't think I'm in a spot where I *can't* like the Hobbit because I like lots of things. I just *don't* like the Hobbit movies. I think I understand some of the reasons why and I've talked about them in the weekly off topic movie thread. I don't bother posting them here because way too often, there is no 'discussion' of movies here. There is only argument and posturing and accusations and the sense that *I* can't possibly say that the movies are disjointed because *another* doesn't think that way. Guess what. Disagreements in 'quality' happens all the time! :-) My husband loves beets and things they're yummy. I hate beets and think they're vile. They are yummy *and* they are vile. Because that's how subjective opinion works. Unless we're interested in finding out why each of us thinks they're either yummy or vile... or how our attraction or repulsion to beets influences our life or our relationship... or whatever (the beet analogy is limited!)... then we have nothing to talk about. We have to accept that we disagree. We can dismiss each other at worthy human beings. Or we can chuckle at our differences and leave each other to find their own head and virtual space to either enjoy or avoid beets.



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:52pm

Post #276 of 337 (3285 views)
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I'm not sure I worked out what you were trying to say... [In reply to] Can't Post

it had a bit of that 'like half of you half as well as you deserve' sense to it and my face was probably as comical trying to work it out as the Hobbits in the movie... :-)


But I have actually thought about this. I have spent a fair amount of time, thought, discussion, and energy on The Hobbit movies. The thought that occurred to me was, had I never seen LOTR, I would have spent almost no time on The Hobbit movies. I would have watched them, talked about them in the car on the way home, and never given much thought to the again. Except to decide if I wanted to watch them again when they came to my second run theater.



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Apr 25 2014, 2:52pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 2:57pm

Post #277 of 337 (3276 views)
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Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the end AUJ and DOS were "more of the same".

For all the praise of FOTR, if Jackson had had the time and money there would have been hordes of Watchers in the underground lake, Gandalf fighting a slime balrog up the Endless Stair, an Elf-Orc battle at the entrance to Lothlorien, and a running Fellowship/Orc battle on the Anduin. (The last probably much like the barrel scene in DOS, with Legolas hopping on the heads of friend and foe alike. I mean, he'd alread hopped on the head of the cave troll during the battle of Moria so it's not like it would be something new. And the number of arrows he shot at Amon Hen was toned down because even Jackson found it a bit ridiculous.)

(I won't even mention the huge set-piece warg night attack on Edoras originally planned in TTT but scrapped on account of money.)

So yeah, if The Hobbit trilogy had been filmed first in 2001-2003 I bet dollars to donuts we'd be sitting here complaining about how bad FOTR (2012) and TTT (2013) were compared to it.

******************************************
https://www.facebook.com/slatesforsarah

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 25 2014, 3:07pm)


BlackFox
Half-elven


Apr 25 2014, 3:12pm

Post #278 of 337 (3266 views)
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Here you go, Rem! [In reply to] Can't Post



Tongue


"Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake." - Henry David Thoreau


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:20pm

Post #279 of 337 (3263 views)
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Well said [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree people have seemed to get worked up. I do believe its because people don't use the right verbiage. Too many times people state their opinions as fact without using ways of writing that show its an opinion. Also going back to a point I made last night some terms used become hyperbole. I honestly don't care who doesn't like this films and would gladly talk with them on why. I would just ask those people to be respectful in how they write things as I do honestly try and do the same.



Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 3:44pm

Post #280 of 337 (3238 views)
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Thanks very much for that, Magpie [In reply to] Can't Post

It chimes a lot with my view, and is very intelligently put. Smile

And the following is also true, perhaps, as far as I'm concerned, although this point is difficult to assess because I have seen LotR, many times:

'The thought that occurred to me was, had I never seen LOTR, I would have spent almost no time on The Hobbit movies. I would have watched them, talked about them in the car on the way home, and never given much thought to the again. Except to decide if I wanted to watch them again when they came to my second run theatre.'


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Apr 25 2014, 3:49pm)


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 4:21pm

Post #281 of 337 (3217 views)
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I don't buy it either... [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, I've always found it somewhat mildly offensive. I remember it was the excuse used by many in regards to the Star Wars prequel trilogy. Now, granted, the originals aren't exactly Lawrence of Arabia Tongue, but they're tremendously exciting and endearing sci-fi adventures with endearing characters you can care about. Whenever I heard the "you've changed, the films haven't" line, I always felt it was a way of letting the new movies off the hook for their failings.

Same here (though, obviously, I think The Hobbit films are leaps and bounds above the SW prequels). My love of the LotR films has remained as it was when I first saw them - all I have to do is watch them for a few minutes and it's readily apparent to me that they are on a higher cinematic level than The Hobbit films (heck, pretty much most other films). To say that that's just due to nostalgia, or be being younger when they came out, etc. just rings false to me.

I've seen so many classic films throughout the years, at different points in my life - some right before the release of a belated sequel, prequel, etc. The fact that I've been able to discern the qualities and shortcomings of those films vs. the follow-ups speaks to my ability to recognize the actual qualities of a film and not just be caught up in boyhood nostalgia or some such thing.

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Apr 25 2014, 4:26pm)


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 4:28pm

Post #282 of 337 (3216 views)
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These are adaptations [In reply to] Can't Post

of twentieth century classics. What is not often discussed is that for most classic books of that era or earlier, there have been a number of adaptations made - some close to the book and others more accurately described as "based on". Once a classic has been adapted for the screen - such as David Lean's Oliver Twist or Great Expectations, then it matters a lot less if someone comes along and takes a few liberties with a later version. Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet would probably have been subject to widespread condemnation if it had been the first attempt at adapting that particular play for the screen. Until PJ came along we didn't have a film adaptation of LOTR, and he succeeded enough, both as film and as adaptation to satisfy most people - and was given extra leeway, because LOTR was considered by many to be un-filmable. The Hobbit isn't un-filmable - it's comparatively straightforward in plot and scope, and the technology is now well established, partly thanks to PJ, WETA et al. So, without that extra leeway, people are wanting the first attempt at a Hobbit film to be a good adaptation of the book. Also, the rights aren't available for anyone else to have a go at a more faithful rendering, so, for many people, this one is all we're going to get.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 4:43pm

Post #283 of 337 (3220 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think wanting people to express their opinions in a certain way starts to become a kind of dogma that must be adhered to before one can have their opinions considered.

There are certainly folks on these boards and on all other venues on the internet (and off... I've met these folks in community meetings) that are going to complain and rant and rave and be agitated and antagonist and unpleasant no matter what anyone does. Some are in their head and can't get out. They are angry and they perceive the world in away that feeds that anger. Some like playing with people. They are purposefully baiting folks to get a rise out of them. They will take whatever you say and turn it back on you just to keep you engaged.

Those folks are not ones you want to play with. Walk away. Don't expect them to own their rantings as 'their opinion'.

Then there are folks that feel passionately and aren't well spoken. They might be young and haven't learned the skill of writing in nuanced ways. Or perhaps English isn't their primary language. Or maybe they're use to a type of language from another venue that doesn't play out so well here. Or maybe they're just having a bad day and today... they're mad as hell and they're going to tell the world so and they're not mincing words.

The subject of how we speak to each other is important. But at some point, when do we become - to use a net-speak term - own-your-opinion-Nazis about it?

I think I'm more aware of language and how we use it that many. I often edit myself up to 15-30 minutes after I've written a post or letter to eliminate ambiguities and ill chosen terms. But I don't make it a point to own every statement I make about a movie or tv show as 'my opinion'. And I don't think that most people in the Monday Movie thread on Off Topic do. We just accept that it's our own opinion and that people will differ. Most of the time, no feathers are ruffled and no one reacts badly. (there has been, in my observation, one except: Downtown Abbey... lol)

You thought my long post was well said but you didn't respond to one point I made about 10 years after. You only responded to something that let you make the point, once more, that people should choose their words carefully. That's not a criticism or complaint. It's an observation.

You're right. You're absolutely right. But I think we have to let it go, sometimes. Not because it's not important. But because we're never going to achieve any state where people do the right thing.

I tend to (try to?)...
...either dismiss someone, silently and personally, as not worth my time

...cut them some slack about how they phrased things and move on to their point. perhaps - while I'm addressing the points I might comment on what I perceive to be an ill-chosen phrase or label.

Or just walk away completely.

If I find myself reacting badly to how people are communicating more than 4 or 5 times in a row... it's time for me to take a break. Either because that environment is polluted... or I'm in a head state that won't let me perceive anything other than offense.

This isn't about being right or wrong, sometimes. It's about finding middle ground, getting along, and copacetic states of mind. If the debate is always about how we said things, why bother unless we're earnestly working out together how to effectively communicate. And that happens. But not very often on the Hobbit board. That's not why people come here and not enough people are interested (although many are... and kudos to them.. they have more patience than I do).

and with that, I must attend to real life and Founders Day events. Watching this thread has been fascinating in terms of watching different personalities operate and seize the moment, so to speak. :-) And in terms of people still wonderfully struggling with how to deal with sharing disappointments and delights with each other as a community.

I think there were some small triumphs over people trying to co-exist as a community over people taking the "Hans and Franz" persona with "We are here to rile (clap) you up!"

cheers.



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Loresilme
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 5:02pm

Post #284 of 337 (3192 views)
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lol :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 5:08pm

Post #285 of 337 (3188 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

It’s funny how trying to be a social, reasoned and otherwise normal person who connects with other human beings can often lead you astray. In the end you have to properly distance yourself from the abnormal, caustic psychopathy of the dysfunctional. Just don’t engage with those who can’t or won’t conform to a minimum standard of decency.

Words I should live by, but poking them with a stick is just so much fun.

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Magpie
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 5:10pm

Post #286 of 337 (3194 views)
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*whispers to Darkstone* [In reply to] Can't Post

and it's pretty fun to watch you poke sometimes, too



LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 5:27pm

Post #287 of 337 (3157 views)
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Choosing topics [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree. That's why I try (not always very well) to stick to that approach.

I agree. Some people will go one way or the other no matter what and there is nothing you can do about it. That wasn't the types of people I meant really.

I think its fair to hold people to their opinions. I mean at somepoint you have to walk away from them but I do expect people to own them all the same. If someone doesn't as you said I will walk away from them.

I did. I thought your post was very well written and thoughts laid out in a manner that was engaging to read. I didn't pick out on the points of the 10 years because I've already mentioned my thoughts and didn't want to beat that horse again.

So that is why I choose the last point because I felt the discussion needed reminding that at times its not what's said but how its said that might ruffle feathers. For me that's a somewhat large issue, which is why I choose it. I wasn't picking on or at you either so much by doing so but tossing it out as food for reminded thought.

You're right though its more about just realizing it is a total pipe dream to reach that level. Finding ways to communicate on The Hobbit board is a challenge at times no doubt.



Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 25 2014, 5:39pm

Post #288 of 337 (3158 views)
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'A good adaptation' [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I'm concerned, it is not that I wanted an utterly faithful adaptation of the book, because that wouldn't interest me very much, given that the book was written for children. There were many deviations from the books in LotR, too, and the characters (apart from Gandalf and younger Bilbo) were completely unlike I had imagined them. However, LotR captured the spirit of the professor's work: for example, it had emotional moments a-plenty (even though it also had some ham acting!), some wonderful outdoor scenes and music that blended seamlessly with the films.

As a 'good adaptation', I would have liked to see (in The Hobbit) something that reflected the spirit and heart of Tolkien's work. While AUJ did this to a certain extent, DoS strayed widely of the mark – there was nothing moving about it at all. As I have mentioned before, the visuals, apart from the ninja-elf action and the appearance of one character, were spectacular, but the story was too broken up and fast, relying on too much action, and there was not enough of the key canon characters (Bilbo,Thorin, Gandalf, Beorn, Thranduil, etc.). (IMHO, of course) Given this, I do not feel DoS was 'a good adaptation'.


In Reply To
Until PJ came along we didn't have a film adaptation of LOTR, and he succeeded enough, both as film and as adaptation to satisfy most people - and was given extra leeway, because LOTR was considered by many to be un-filmable. The Hobbit isn't un-filmable - it's comparatively straightforward in plot and scope, and the technology is now well established, partly thanks to PJ, WETA et al. So, without that extra leeway, people are wanting the first attempt at a Hobbit film to be a good adaptation of the book. Also, the rights aren't available for anyone else to have a go at a more faithful rendering, so, for many people, this one is all we're going to get.



Old Toby
Grey Havens


Apr 25 2014, 5:41pm

Post #289 of 337 (3162 views)
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Hey there Thranderz [In reply to] Can't Post

let me jump in here real quick. I think it's not that people are criticizing the movie - yet - since it hasn't even come out. But I think the negative responses to the title change result from the supposition that the title indicates the stress, the most important element, of the movie. (And I have to admit I fall into that camp.) So I think it's not that the title is affecting the content, but rather the other way round. And although the battle may consume a great deal of the last part of the film, some of us are hoping that it isn't the most important part of the film, the heart of the film, and that character and story don't take a back seat to cgi and action sequences that go on and on. Having seen what PJ has done in the past, I'm confident he can pull it off, but I too personally prefer the previous title for the last film.

BTW I see by your name and pic that you are definitely into that elvish king. I thought Lee Pace was simply brilliant and look forward to seeing more of him in the next film!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Old Toby
Grey Havens


Apr 25 2014, 5:51pm

Post #290 of 337 (3162 views)
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You state this so much more succinctly than I ever could [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL! I was just responding to another poster earlier on and it took me a whole paragraph to say what you said in one sentence!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 5:57pm

Post #291 of 337 (3134 views)
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Here [In reply to] Can't Post

Letter #210:

(Or rather a precis to avoid copyright issues.)

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Letter_210

And a comparison of three treatments::

http://www.academia.edu/...n_Boorman_and_Beagle

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Patty
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 6:11pm

Post #292 of 337 (3133 views)
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Welcome, welcome Ranger Anduiel! [In reply to] Can't Post

My fear is that there are those who won't read the books because they will think that they are just "action" stories if the heart of the story is gone from the film. I'm with you, it will always be there and back again to me.

Glad to have you out of lurkerdom.

Permanent address: Into the West






Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 25 2014, 6:57pm

Post #293 of 337 (3130 views)
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"...the spine of the story..." [In reply to] Can't Post

In “Which Lie Did I Tell?: More Adventures in the Screen Trade” screenwriter Willaim Goldman (“The Princess Bride”) notes that “good screenwriters have to discover the spine of the story and stick to it”.

What is the spine of The Hobbit?

As squire puts it, the spine is:

The growth of Bilbo to immaturity.

The story is about Bilbo, and how he "had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbors' respect, but he gained -- well, you will see if he gained anything in the end."

None of the rest matters: not Elrond, the dwarves, Gollum, the eagles, Beorn, Lake town, or Smaug. It is not about seeing Middle-earth become real, and it is certainly not a prologue or prequel to The Lord of the Rings. It is about Bilbo's transformation. If we don't believe he is a fatuous boob at the beginning, and a bit of a hero at the end and a poet to boot, the movie isn't worth spit.

-TORn, Movie Discussion: The Hobbit, Dec 25 2007

Agreed.

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(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 25 2014, 6:59pm)


zalmoxis
Bree

Apr 25 2014, 7:24pm

Post #294 of 337 (3092 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

"What is the spine of The Hobbit[movies]?

The growth of Bilbo to immaturity. "

Tongue

Agreed.



MirielCelebel
Rivendell


Apr 25 2014, 8:16pm

Post #295 of 337 (3050 views)
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yes but [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The Battle of 5 Armies are exact words from Tolkien himself and a catchier title than TABA.And in marketing terms it is better imo.I really liked the title TABA myself and i am glad that it will be used as a title for the whole trilogy at least!

And DOS EE over 25 minutes!!I hope it reaches any magical number between 30-35.I would be delighted.


"The Road goes ever on..."

Writing Bliss


TheSexyBeard
Lorien


Apr 25 2014, 8:43pm

Post #296 of 337 (3042 views)
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Total War [In reply to] Can't Post

Ha, never meant that good catch, I couldn't get into the seires but I'd give a Hobbit version a go. Tongue

Yes, my username is terrible.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 8:58pm

Post #297 of 337 (3043 views)
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We will certainly get 25 mintues this time [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember specifically that last time he said, "Probably around 20-25 minutes", and this was after some one asked him about it. He was put on the spot and gave a rough number, then things changed.



This time he spells out "over 25 minutes" and adds that it's just about finished. That's solid information, and he just brought it up out of the blue as a bonus treat for us fans. He wouldn't have said anything to get our hopes up again if he wasn't sure.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Apr 25 2014, 8:59pm)


Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 9:04pm

Post #298 of 337 (3036 views)
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Agreed, and also... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I'm so happy it will have over 25 minutes - not just because I like me some added footage Tongue, but because it means the film will now be longer than AUJ (even in it's extended form). I don't like my movies to get shorter PJ - only longer. Sly

"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Apr 25 2014, 10:18pm

Post #299 of 337 (3007 views)
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I agree it is not the same [In reply to] Can't Post

Still, I will remain skeptical until it is completely official. I am reasonably confident that it will be more than last time, but I think it is too early to be sure. And before you say "but it must be official, Jackson posted it on his Facebook page," remember that the 20 questions were posted on his Facebook page as well. Wink

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Apr 25 2014, 10:20pm

Post #300 of 337 (3078 views)
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I read an interesting quote from Tolkien the other day [In reply to] Can't Post

Can't remember where - but he was saying, effectively, that "There and back again" was the spine of the story. Which is similar to what you said - and interesting that this thread is partly about the scrapping of There and Back Again as a film title. Will they do justice to the "back again" part of the story? I know they've shot it - and PJ references it in the AUJ EE commentary. If they do use it in the Theatrical Edition, then I think there is a good chance that they will have kept the "spine of the book" at least partly visible, albeit with a lot of additional and often unnecessary action and elf stuff.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 10:56pm

Post #301 of 337 (3122 views)
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I'm not really all that concerned about the title change... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I do hope that the return journey is not given short shrift just so we can see more action (although I'm completely expecting that to be the case). And as I've made known on more than one occasion, I'm concerned that Jackson might overplay the scale of the Battle of Five Armies itself just because it's his last hurrah in Middle-earth. The Battle of Five Armies was not the biggest battle of the Third Age, and it should not be portrayed as such.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Apr 25 2014, 11:00pm)


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 11:32pm

Post #302 of 337 (3110 views)
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I wouldn't hold out much hope on either front... [In reply to] Can't Post

"I do hope that the return journey is not given short shrift just so we can see more action (although I'm completely expecting that to be the case)."

Well, yes. But then such a choice would be entirely understandable, wouldn't it, considering the general reaction to RotK's "multiple" endings and the fact that, well, movies just aren't structured with such enormous, elongated codas.

"And as I've made known on more than one occasion, I'm concerned that Jackson might overplay the scale of the Battle of Five Armies itself just because it's his last hurrah in Middle-earth. The Battle of Five Armies was not the biggest battle of the Third Age, and it should not be portrayed as such."

What with 3D, 4K, 48fps, IMAX, a decade of accolades and limitless funds behind him, you can bet your bottom dollar that the BoFA is going to blow everything else out of water. Or at least try to...

So, yes, I (and many others, I suspect) share your concerns Unsure


"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


(This post was edited by Kendalf on Apr 25 2014, 11:34pm)


Lio
Lorien


Apr 25 2014, 11:36pm

Post #303 of 337 (3075 views)
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Thanks, those were a great read! [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks like those early scripts really are locked away in a vault somewhere. Laugh

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 25 2014, 11:43pm

Post #304 of 337 (3087 views)
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As to the second point about the scale of the battle... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I think Jackson could make the battle into a more dazzling display than anything we've seen thus far, and still stay close to the true scale of the battle. But will he? Or will he put 300,000 Orcs in this battle just so he can top the 200,000 present in his version of the Battle of Pelennor? If he wants these 6 films to be viewed as one single "hexology", then I think it would be a huge mistake to turn the Bo5A into the biggest battle of the series.


Name
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 11:45pm

Post #305 of 337 (3089 views)
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It's going to be spectacular [In reply to] Can't Post

But I doubt Jackson will try to make it bigger than Pelennor Fields. And to be honest, I don't think the area around Erebor is large enough to fit an absolutely huge mass of people.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 25 2014, 11:57pm

Post #306 of 337 (3095 views)
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Six films, yes... But not chronologically... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If he wants these 6 films to be viewed as one single "hexology", then I think it would be a huge mistake to turn the Bo5A into the biggest battle of the series.


I think he does want these films to be viewed as a unified hexalogy but I don't think they'll ever be best viewed AUJ to RotK. In all sorts of ways it makes much more sense to watch LotR first. This new trilogy is, by default, a prequel trilogy and has therefore been written and filmed as such. It's not pretending in any way to pre-date the originals; it even depends on familiarity with them in many instances.

So, yes, he does want all six films to be viewed as a unified narrative, but I'm pretty much convinced that he views BotFA as the sixth film, not RotK,,,

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 12:14am

Post #307 of 337 (3093 views)
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Yes, due to the "flashback" set-up after the Bilbo/Frodo stuff... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event". We know Sauron is not at full-strength here, it's already been stated as such by Gandalf. So it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.


Morthoron
Gondor


Apr 26 2014, 1:33am

Post #308 of 337 (3097 views)
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Perhaps he should rename it "Raiders of the Lost Arkenstone"... [In reply to] Can't Post

since it bears less and less resemblance to Tolkien, and more and more like any other generic big-budget Hollywood epic. Perhaps Thor or another Marvel character will be used in place of the eagles as the deus ex machina. Cross-advertising and product placement are big ticket items in films these days. Wink

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Apr 26 2014, 2:17am

Post #309 of 337 (3031 views)
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That last one, "If they use it" is the big if. [In reply to] Can't Post

I still believe the title change signals a shift in the focus of this final movie of the three. The Hobbit is not a story about war. If this were not the case Tolkien would have kept his Hobbit conscious to participate. The Battle of Five Armies isn't even a chapter in the book. KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Apr 26 2014, 4:36am

Post #310 of 337 (3035 views)
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*nods and whispers* [In reply to] Can't Post

With or without popcorn!

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NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


lurtz2010
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 6:19am

Post #311 of 337 (3016 views)
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people saying the return journey should be the main focus are full of it [In reply to] Can't Post

yeah Bilbo heads back home and discovers he's a new man since he left the Shire. They should dedicate the whole second half of the movie to all that...


Kendalf
Rohan


Apr 26 2014, 7:41am

Post #312 of 337 (2988 views)
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It can be greater without being greater ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event"...it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.


True. I suppose what I'm expecting is that the BotFA will be more ambitious, more complex, more sprawling, more episodic, more varied, more spectacular more "eye-candy" than the Pelennor Fields (and perhaps even longer) rather than larger...

That's what I mean by Jackson trying to "blow all his previous battles out of the water". Am I making sense?

"I have walked there sometimes, beyond the forest and up into the night. I have seen the world fall away and the white light of forever fill the air."


Elciryamo
Rivendell

Apr 26 2014, 7:58am

Post #313 of 337 (2980 views)
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Well, I followed you :) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
that doesn't really change the fact this trilogy is more of a set-up for LotR than the "main event"...it doesn't make sense for his forces to be stronger now than they are when he IS at full-strength and decides to try and topple Minas Tirith.


True. I suppose what I'm expecting is that the BotFA will be more ambitious, more complex, more sprawling, more episodic, more varied, more spectacular more "eye-candy" than the Pelennor Fields (and perhaps even longer) rather than larger...

That's what I mean by Jackson trying to "blow all his previous battles out of the water". Am I making sense?


Jackson can try and out do himself all he wants. Personally, I see Battle of Five Armies showing a ramp up of events, elevating the stakes higher and higher until the titular event. If you have Smaug defeated and then there is another, greater threat, and still another, then you can build on those threats towards a larger climatic ending.

BO5A is a more fitting title than TABA, as they really will be eliminating threats until a greater one is shown. Finally, at the end, we will see evil defeated for a time, but foreshadowing the events in LOTR.

Does Pelennor Fields take away from Helms Deep or the Black Gate? Does the personal struggle of Aragorn diminish because of Frodo and Sam? No, the events compliment and build upon one another towards a grander ending where all parties are involved.

DoS actually did a good job of setting up stakes, and I think that will continue throughout BO5A.


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 4:32pm

Post #314 of 337 (2934 views)
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Lurtz2010, you were replying to me, so I should ask [In reply to] Can't Post

were you deliberately misrepresenting people here, or was it a genuine lack of comprehension? And what is it exactly that people are full of - could you be more specific?

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 5:03pm

Post #315 of 337 (2907 views)
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the main event in [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Lord of the Rings", the ring and Sauron are the main event in that trilogy. I want BOT5A to be more epic than anything in LOTR's just because its the last middle-earth film! Wink


The flames of war are upon you..

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Apr 26 2014, 5:03pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 5:36pm

Post #316 of 337 (2902 views)
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Yes, that makes sense... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I wouldn't have a problem with the battle being more of an "eye-candy" type of battle. I expect that the whole eagles/bats battle in the skies (if it's still being included) will add a whole new dynamic to the battle, and will allow for plenty of dazzling display. And I'm sure the Mirkwood elves are going to be defying the laws of gravity all over the place as well...


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 5:43pm

Post #317 of 337 (2893 views)
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It can be "more epic"... [In reply to] Can't Post

...without being bigger in scale.

And the two trilogies are meant to be linked into one large narrative. Wink


NecromancerRising
Gondor


Apr 26 2014, 5:51pm

Post #318 of 337 (2898 views)
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Sure,why not. [In reply to] Can't Post

If i can accept that the Elves live forever and some or them have powerful magic abilities,i can easily accept one race of Elves like the Mirkwood ones to defy gravity.Of course,that happened in THEIR own territory,where they have lived for hundreds of years.Let's see if the same will happen in a completely unknown ground. Smile

"Obsession and narrow-mindness is the trend of the 2000's and synonyms to many Tolkien fanatics"


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 9:14pm

Post #319 of 337 (2857 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

its called The Battle of the Five Armies! I think it should be just as epic if not more than Helm's Deep or pelennor fields.


The flames of war are upon you..


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 9:32pm

Post #320 of 337 (2879 views)
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What is your point? [In reply to] Can't Post

So what if it's called "The Battle of Five Armies"? Most of the armies were small, except for the Goblin army. The Dwarves numbered around 500, a Elves a few thousand, and the Men of Lake-town much less than either. There were probably more Rohirrim at Pelennor than there were Dwarves, Elves, and Men combined at the Bo5A. Here is an excellent statistical analysis about the numbers at the Bo5A done by someone. It's not definitive by any means, but it gives us a rough idea based on Tolkien's descriptions of the forces.

And if you've read the books, then you know that Pelennor contained at least 7-8 armies - Gondorians, Rohirrim, Knights of Dol Amroth, Easterlings, Haradrim, Troll-men of Far Harad, Variags, and the Orcs/Trolls/Nazgul from Mordor and Minas Morgul.

So really, nothing to "LOL" about Wink


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2014, 9:47pm

Post #321 of 337 (2841 views)
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small armies? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok even if they are small armies…its still FIVE plus eagles and a giant bear. If the title is BO5A you know its not going to be a small battle, i mean come on now..


The flames of war are upon you..


lurtz2010
Rohan

Apr 26 2014, 9:56pm

Post #322 of 337 (2854 views)
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sorry i was referring to that message above [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i just meant all that back again/self discovery stuff is a given and the title change doesnt mean it wont be focused on. its not like the movie will end at erebor after thorins funeral.


(This post was edited by Silverlode on Apr 26 2014, 11:11pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Apr 26 2014, 10:36pm

Post #323 of 337 (2819 views)
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I plan too [In reply to] Can't Post

watch all six EE once they're all out from AUJ to ROTK. It makes sense and how I personally view they should be watched. I look at it the same way I do when I read The Hobbit though The Lord of the Rings. I am quite excited myself to sit down next year and watch all of them. Cool



Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2014, 2:36pm

Post #324 of 337 (2794 views)
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Sorry, here is the link... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.councilofelrond.com/...analysis-by-ilandir/


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 27 2014, 3:33pm

Post #325 of 337 (2788 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

The number of the armies of the Free Peoples probaby numbered at least 2000:
- Elves: 1000+ spearmen with at least several companies of archers (say a company = 20 Elves).
- Dwarves: 500+ warriors and Thorin's 13.
- Men: However many fighters remained after Smaug's attack; say 200 to 300.
- The Eagles were numerous; so dozens at least.

The Orcs and their alllies comprised a vast host that greatly outnumbered their opponents. Say at least 5000 and as many as 10,000, not even counting the bats.

So we are looking at a conflict at about the scale of Helm's Deep.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 27 2014, 3:35pm)


Name
Rohan


Apr 27 2014, 4:47pm

Post #326 of 337 (4034 views)
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According to the book, yes [In reply to] Can't Post

But you've got to remember that these numbers were established before Tolkien wrote LotR.

In LotR, the Elven Kingdom in Mirkwood has a rather large population, and is more important than Tolkien described it in The Hobbit. So you'd think they would be able to muster multiple thousands of troops, not just one thousand.

Then there's the dwarves of the Iron Hills. Logically thinking, 500 isn't much of a force for Dain to bring with him to Erebor. You would think the dwarven race would be able to muster a force larger than 500. These are the same dwarves, after all, who will be resisting Sauron's assault 60 years later.

See what I'm getting at? Middle-earth in TH is considerably smaller and less involved than the Middle-earth Tolkien later describes in LotR.

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 27 2014, 6:05pm

Post #327 of 337 (4030 views)
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I am erring on the consertavive side here. [In reply to] Can't Post

When Tolkien writes of over 500 Dwarves, I assume that it is significantly less than 600, but as much as an additional two score or so. And that is not including Thorin and his companions. We don't know the size of Dain's colony in the Iron Hills; we just know that he can muster a force of over 500 Dwarves. Perhaps the rest of his warriors were left behind for defense or as a possible reserve. However, the number of Dain's force is so well known from the book that I don't see a good reason to inflate it much.

Thranduil was marching with "many spearmen and bowmen." We know that there were at least one thousand spearmen (probably more). If we assume a rough parity of bowmen then that gives the Elvenking at least 2000 fighters--maybe half again that amount.

We have only the vaguest idea of the number of Men in Bard's army. For the sake of arguement, let's say that they numbered anywhere from 200 to 400 men (also including a few dozen Eagles).

So, conservatively the Free People might have numbered less than 3000 at the Battle of Five Armies. A more generous estimate might bring that to over 4000. I'm still thinking that we have at least 10,000 Orcs (including goblins), Wargs and wild wolves. That seems like it should be more than enough for Peter Jackson.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 6:32pm

Post #328 of 337 (4010 views)
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I look at it this way - [In reply to] Can't Post

 The forces of 'Good' non-human races were more powerful during the time of the Hobbit, and due to the Battle of Five Armies and the continued exodus of the Elves, their power was much diminished by the time of LOTR.

Secondly, during the LOTR movies, we only saw a part of Sauron's forces. His armies were spread all over Middle-Earth wreaking havoc. We never saw the Dark Lord's full might at the time.

So we could get a battle to rival or even surpass the 'later' ones.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by Hanzkaz on Apr 27 2014, 6:34pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 27 2014, 6:43pm

Post #329 of 337 (3995 views)
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Only because Elves and Dwarves reproduce slowly [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The forces of 'Good' non-human races were more powerful during the time of the Hobbit, and due to the Battle of Five Armies and the continued exodus of the Elves, their power was much diminished by the time of LOTR.



That's only true in the sense that the Mirwood Elves and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills took many casualties in the Battle of Five Armies. Both races replenish their numbers slowly--particularly the Dwarves--and they have only had a few decades to recover. The folk of Rivendell and Lothlorien never took part in the battle, but their strength has been diminished by Elves taking ship to sail West to Valinor. Both stories are set in essentially the same period--near the end of the Third Age.


Quote

Secondly, during the LOTR movies, we only saw a part of Sauron's forces. His armies were spread all over Middle-Earth wreaking havoc. We never saw the Dark Lord's full might at the time.

So we could get a battle to rival or even surpass the 'later' ones.



True, 'though in Tolkien's The Hobbit, we never got any sense of the size of the Necromancer's forces. Even in Jackson's version, we can assume that Sauron has allies in the South and East that don't come into this story; and that his servants are breeding more Orcs in Mordor who also don't figure in the Bo5A.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Apr 27 2014, 6:58pm

Post #330 of 337 (4016 views)
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Pretty much what I was referring to. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Only because Elves and Dwarves reproduce slowly


While Sauron was in Dol Guldur, he focused on the Elves and Dwarves, and then he moved to Mordor and went to war against Gondor (I'm talking movie canon).

The power of Men (especially Gondor) was weakened by years of fighting against Sauron's armies. They could still replenish their numbers quicker than the other races though, which is why Gandalf set his hopes on them.

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2014, 7:05pm

Post #331 of 337 (4017 views)
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that is just a blueprint for the battle [In reply to] Can't Post

it speaks of "hosts" and "many", PJ could easily make the host hundreds or more.


The flames of war are upon you..


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2014, 7:13pm

Post #332 of 337 (4013 views)
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My point is that, in the books... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the Bo5A was a much smaller battle than Pelennor. So the Bo5A should be much smaller than Pelennor in the film as well.


Quote
PJ could easily make the host hundreds or more


Unfortunately, PJ has carte blanche to do whatever he wants, and seemingly no one to reign in his excesses. So yeah, he might turn 500 Dwarves into 5000 Dwarves.


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

Apr 27 2014, 9:06pm

Post #333 of 337 (4001 views)
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The Good Guys attack the Bad Guys from the Lonely Mt. itself..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello All, according to the Hobbit book version (here we go again with books and film comparisons), the elves, dwarves, and men gather on two arms/spurs of the Lonely Mt. and try to lure the orc armies into a valley, the only way that leads to the main gate. This is actually a real military tactic from Greek-Roman armies to medieval ones--get a large army with superior numbers all jammed up in a narrow space and attack them from the high ground and the rear. But the book says even this tactic only works for a while and Beorn and the Eagles are the real heroes who save the day at the last minute. But a small force might use this strategy& tactics if they were outnumbered.

Again, we don't know how filmmaker and war-master PJ is going to play this out. But it would make sense to stick to the book on this one. I am sure we will cheer on our heroes as they bash and slash--and some will meet their end on the battlefield--tragic and bittersweet.

regards, the 13th warrior.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 28 2014, 4:03pm

Post #334 of 337 (3953 views)
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I think that I undercounted the Elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

As it is, I believe that I undervalued the Wood-elves by at least 1000 men. Tolkien wrote that there were at least 1000 spearmen (probably more). He doesn't actually state that the bowmen numbered as many, but we can at least speculate that that was so, bringing their numbers up to over 2000.

Jackson isn't going to want to inflate the numbers too much on the side of the good guys; the audience still has to see them as badly outnumbered.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 28 2014, 4:10pm

Post #335 of 337 (3956 views)
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I don't get the vibe that there are *that* many people in Lake-town or elves in Mirkwood. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we'll see more conservative numbers with more intimate battle scenes for the good guys a la Helm's Deep.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Apr 28 2014, 6:13pm

Post #336 of 337 (3957 views)
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There may have been more Elves than you think. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think we'll see more conservative numbers with more intimate battle scenes for the good guys a la Helm's Deep.



I think that Thranduil could reasonably have mustered a couple of thousand Wood-elves or so. The totals for the Armies of the Free Peoples of the North could be as low as less than 3000, or a bit over 4000. I thiink that more than that would be pushing it. The number of enemies might rival or exceed Saruman's forces at Helm's Deep, but they will also be less disciplined (particularly the Wargs and Bats).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Apr 28 2014, 6:23pm)


Imladris18
Lorien


Apr 28 2014, 6:16pm

Post #337 of 337 (3969 views)
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You very well may be correct. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thranduils' kingdom just seems fairly small from my perception.

In any case, I don't think we'll see anything close to Pelennor Fields numbers.


 
 

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