|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 20 2014, 5:21pm
Post #101 of 155
(2394 views)
Shortcut
|
"perhaps the Ring can still tempt you by making you believe that your decisions are based on self-sacrificing love"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That's what I was thinking - but much better phrased than I had managed! Thanks FarFromHome!! And Boromir? Early in his rant at Frodo (Breaking of the Fellowship) he says:
We do not desire the power of wizard-lords, only strength to defend ourselves, strength in a just cause... What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do?. [then only at this point] Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? Then the idea of Boromir the Mighty King blossoms in his talk. Hard to say whether it's a new idea; to what extent the Ring has just then found an serious entry point. I think it might be significant that he seems momentarily willing for Aragorn to take the Ring, if only it would save Gondor. Have we just witnessed the change from self-sacrifice (or at leas self-sacrifice as one's justification) to naked ambition? So, although "evil cannot comprehend good" there's also the twist that :
"...frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root: the desire to benefit the world and others - speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans - is a recurrent motive." JRR Tolkien, in a 1951 letter to Milton Waldman, an editor, (about the potential publication of what was to become The Silmarillion). Saruman is the example par excellence, of course: but whether the Ring is affecting him, or whether he's gone bad independently and now wants the Ring as a pragmatic matter, I don't know. Or maybe he has a poster on the wall of his Orthanc study "What Would Sauron DO?"
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more.... "nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 20 2014, 6:47pm
Post #102 of 155
(2380 views)
Shortcut
|
Do you think this is another case of Gandalf's "There was more than one power at work"? Or, did Isildur just happen to be in the water when the Ring jilted him? Or, (a further Shippey criticism of later-period Tolkien) is grittiness being lost because the gods are becoming a bit too much on hand?
I have been thinking on this bit, and it certainly ties up with the line about more than one power being at work, which in LOTR is not further expanded on. Ulmo had the longest sight of all the Valar I think in the sense of actual planning and places to take decisive action. This it seems would count as such a moment...before the Ring could corrupt Isildur. In this sense, is we accept the idea of intervention, Ulmo's vision tells against Isildur's potential success in warding off its taint! After the Gladden Fields it is held rather in trust until the right pieces were on the board - though we get the finding from another perspective in LOTR, of the Ring trying actively (as best it could) to return to the hand of its master. But on the other, unstated and passive hand, the covering waters seem to hold it in trust until the timing of things is right and the pieces having better odds are on the board. I don't think that necessarily takes the grit from the tales...randomness, yes, in that sense it does. But having created the active pantheon in the earlier days of Arda this small gesture is really quite minimal, though perfectly timed in the long game (which screams 'Ulmo' to me). Its still a very removed intervention, if it is one: the Ring is NOT rolled out to sea (if we account Ulmo in the tale, a distinct possibility) nor is it hidden for good. Instead the genie is unboxed at the right time and circumstance (though poor Deagol might disagree.) All that follows is not lacking in pain, suffering or sacrifice. But are the odds bettered? Likely.
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Feb 20 2014, 8:16pm
Post #103 of 155
(2368 views)
Shortcut
|
I.e., that Ulmo may have prevented the Ring from rolling down the Anduin. If it wound up in the Sea, Sauron could not have been utterly destroyed as he was. If it only rolled partway, to the shores of Osgiliath maybe, then another unhappy ruler of the Dunedain might have gotten stuck with it. Or if it were to go ashore near Dol Guldur, You-Know-Who would have gotten it. Or yet again, if it wound up in Lorien, Galadriel would have had her hands on it, and her chances of passing that test are 50-50 at best. It was for everyone's good (except Deagol's, as you note; poor blighter) that it stayed local. On the other hand, Ulmo used his power in Sirion to protect Huor and Hurin when they were lost as boys. He did nothing here to save Isildur when he had swum to safety. But I think overall, he's just not involved in the 3rd Age. We're lucky the Eagles still are. That got me thinking that Boromir came closest to succumbing to the Ring's temptation after their extended trip down the Anduin. Nothing purifying about Ulmo's waters in that case, is there? What a shame. But then somehow Boromir's funeral ship is preserved in the great falls AND Faramir is summoned by a dream to the Anduin to watch it go past on its journey to the sea. That took magical intervention of some kind; I'd give some credit to the boat of Lorien, but the vision by a river during sleep has Ulmo written all over it, doesn't it? I'm not sure how much Tolkien intended Ulmo's fingerprints to appear in LOTR, and how much he just thought that supernatural things were at work. But since many of us are Ulmo fans, it's nice to give him credit even when he may not deserve it.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 20 2014, 10:12pm
Post #104 of 155
(2381 views)
Shortcut
|
So maybe we nearly had Dark Lord Sam turning the whole of Mordor into an Evil Greenhouse - sounds like a cloche-run thing.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Come to think of it, writing Evil Greenhouse is almost as much fun as writing Obsidian Bunker
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more.... "nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 20 2014, 10:41pm
Post #105 of 155
(2345 views)
Shortcut
|
****************************************** Brothers, sisters, I was Elf once. We danced together Under the Two Trees. We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin And the bright silver of Telperion, Brought forth the dawn of the world. Then I was taken. Brothers, sisters, In my torment I kept faith, And I waited. But you never came. And when I returned you drew sword, And when I called your names you drew bow. Was my Eldar beauty all, And my soul nothing? So be it. I will return your hatred, And I am hungry.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Valinor
Feb 20 2014, 10:50pm
Post #107 of 155
(2363 views)
Shortcut
|
They went in, and Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard suddenly, deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth. From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 20 2014, 10:53pm
Post #108 of 155
(2374 views)
Shortcut
|
"Attack of the Killer Potatoes" /
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
****************************************** Brothers, sisters, I was Elf once. We danced together Under the Two Trees. We sang as the soft gold of Laurelin And the bright silver of Telperion, Brought forth the dawn of the world. Then I was taken. Brothers, sisters, In my torment I kept faith, And I waited. But you never came. And when I returned you drew sword, And when I called your names you drew bow. Was my Eldar beauty all, And my soul nothing? So be it. I will return your hatred, And I am hungry.
|
|
|
Meneldor
Valinor
Feb 21 2014, 3:33am
Post #109 of 155
(2344 views)
Shortcut
|
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 21 2014, 10:18pm
Post #110 of 155
(2378 views)
Shortcut
|
On the other hand, Ulmo used his power in Sirion to protect Huor and Hurin when they were lost as boys. He did nothing here to save Isildur when he had swum to safety. But I think overall, he's just not involved in the 3rd Age. We're lucky the Eagles still are. That got me thinking that Boromir came closest to succumbing to the Ring's temptation after their extended trip down the Anduin. Nothing purifying about Ulmo's waters in that case, is there? What a shame. But then somehow Boromir's funeral ship is preserved in the great falls AND Faramir is summoned by a dream to the Anduin to watch it go past on its journey to the sea. That took magical intervention of some kind; I'd give some credit to the boat of Lorien, but the vision by a river during sleep has Ulmo written all over it, doesn't it? I'm not sure how much Tolkien intended Ulmo's fingerprints to appear in LOTR, and how much he just thought that supernatural things were at work. But since many of us are Ulmo fans, it's nice to give him credit even when he may not deserve it. I wonder if in line with Elrond's statement that Isildur could have come to a worse end - if Ulmo can be seen to have involvement - that Ulmo did indeed do Isildur a favor, with death not being the worse possible outcome? I can roll with the idea of Ulmo's hand in the mix very easily! One of many masterful moves against Morgoth and is legacy. That line about other powers in LOTR does I think give us the license to incorporate it... And your point about Faramir's visions and the boat are lovely to think on.
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
|
|
|
Plurmo
Rohan
Feb 22 2014, 8:10am
Post #111 of 155
(2391 views)
Shortcut
|
I think I could roll with that idea too,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Isildur was not the only Great One to require water to separate himself from the Ring. Elrond saw the Ring go South from behind the bridge and behind the Ford (and also there in the very protective watery conditions of Rivendell the Ring was revealed at the Council). Gandalf (by sheer luck, perhaps) took a deep dive into the oblivion of the waters at the depths of Moria and had to focus for escape on the Balrog (whose flame was conveniently, for Gandalf, quenched until he "burst into new flame" at Durin's Tower). Galadriel chose the Tongue as the place to see the Ring away. Aragorn chose Parth Galen as the place to break the Fellowship (and that proved a good choice because there he himself and Legolas and Gimli had to accept that the Ring was gone and focus on the Three Hunter's chase). The Ring was revealed to Faramir beside the protective waters of the Henneth Annūn (because he wasn't allowed to meet it at Rivendell as the prophetic dream required). All this compounds on the hardship endured by Frodo who had to carry the Ring through the unbearable thirst of Gorgoroth and try to destroy it inside Orodruin, surrounded by flames and molten lava. PS: Based on a myriad of great and small details I believe the member of the Fellowship specifically chosen by Ulmo was Meriadoc.
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 22 2014, 9:01pm
Post #112 of 155
(2312 views)
Shortcut
|
I love how you worked the water theme in here Plurmo
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Isildur was not the only Great One to require water to separate himself from the Ring. Elrond saw the Ring go South from behind the bridge and behind the Ford (and also there in the very protective watery conditions of Rivendell the Ring was revealed at the Council). Gandalf (by sheer luck, perhaps) took a deep dive into the oblivion of the waters at the depths of Moria and had to focus for escape on the Balrog (whose flame was conveniently, for Gandalf, quenched until he "burst into new flame" at Durin's Tower). Galadriel chose the Tongue as the place to see the Ring away. Aragorn chose Parth Galen as the place to break the Fellowship (and that proved a good choice because there he himself and Legolas and Gimli had to accept that the Ring was gone and focus on the Three Hunter's chase). The Ring was revealed to Faramir beside the protective waters of the Henneth Annūn (because he wasn't allowed to meet it at Rivendell as the prophetic dream required). All this compounds on the hardship endured by Frodo who had to carry the Ring through the unbearable thirst of Gorgoroth and try to destroy it inside Orodruin, surrounded by flames and molten lava. PS: Based on a myriad of great and small details I believe the member of the Fellowship specifically chosen by Ulmo was Meriadoc. And that crucial breaking point at Parth Galen, after Boromir succumbs to the Ring - it is then separated from the remaining Three Hunters by the water itself as Frodo chooses the opposite bank and leaves by boat - not a typical Hobbit choice. (I am very intrigued by your point about Merry and Ulmo, if you care to elaborate...)
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 22 2014, 9:02pm)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 22 2014, 9:55pm
Post #113 of 155
(2314 views)
Shortcut
|
Plurmo, please would you say more about your Meriadoc/Ulmo idea? //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more.... "nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
DanielLB
Immortal
Feb 22 2014, 10:14pm
Post #114 of 155
(2309 views)
Shortcut
|
I like all this talk of Ulmo's helping hand
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I can roll with the idea of Ulmo's hand in the mix very easily! One of many masterful moves against Morgoth and is legacy. That line about other powers in LOTR does I think give us the license to incorporate it... And your point about Faramir's visions and the boat are lovely to think on. And it reminded me of these passages:
Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar ... For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwe
And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open; nor has he ever forsaken Middle-earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days. It sounds to me that Ulmo very much kept up with what was going on in Middle-earth, and it would be possible for him known about the Halflings, Isildur's Bane, etc. His prescence could perhaps be found in every form of water in Middle-earth - snow, oceans, rivers, pools and even fog (*rushes off to change conclusion of my fog essay*).
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 23 2014, 5:12am
Post #115 of 155
(2295 views)
Shortcut
|
Great citations Daniel...and points on water in the literature
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Nonetheless Ulmo loves both Elves and Men, and never abandoned them, not even when they lay under the wrath of the Valar ... For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains and springs are in his government; so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world. Thus news comes to Ulmo, even in the deeps, of all the needs and griefs of Arda, which otherwise would be hidden from Manwe
And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open; nor has he ever forsaken Middle-earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days. It sounds to me that Ulmo very much kept up with what was going on in Middle-earth, and it would be possible for him known about the Halflings, Isildur's Bane, etc. His prescence could perhaps be found in every form of water in Middle-earth - snow, oceans, rivers, pools and even fog (*rushes off to change conclusion of my fog essay*). I think that the lure and the symbolism of water pervaded the literature from the first: we have the Mariner, Earendel, who rather starts it all in the sense of a drawn character, who is so entwined with the sea. As JRRT points out, it touches everything, carries tales and hides things (like Niniel's body) like a silent repository, or a giant confessional of sorts. I think that the nature of his domain shaped the course of Ulmo, versus the other way around, and that his long planning and his innate and really intuitive knowledge all ties in with his allotted realm in the literature. Such an opposite to Melkor and later Saruman, beings of crafting and forging of things that could be owbned and held; water cannot be shaped (unless its is ice - and then its temporary) or 'worked'... it stays itself, seeks itself and endlessly recombines. Ulmo is quite the fitting opponent to Melkor/Morgoth and later Sauron, in his quiet way!
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 23 2014, 5:13am)
|
|
|
ltnjmy
Rivendell
Feb 23 2014, 5:37pm
Post #116 of 155
(2311 views)
Shortcut
|
I loved this entire thread and all of the postings
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thank you. I am in awe of all of you and the delightful expositions. Reading them here in the laundry room on my new android smart phone. But more discussion on elrond. Why didn't he take more decisive action with isildur at mt doom?
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 23 2014, 5:56pm
Post #117 of 155
(2286 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, an interesting question about Elrond ltnjmy!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thank you. I am in awe of all of you and the delightful expositions. Reading them here in the laundry room on my new android smart phone. But more discussion on elrond. Why didn't he take more decisive action with isildur at mt doom? As the length of the siege and the heavy losses accounted for, yet ultimately Elrond and Cirdan allow the Ring to remain intact. From a *purely* strategic and mundane view, its a bit insane! I have wondered before: if they threw Isildur bodily into the fire...I know its not an appealing or attractive act, but speaking from mere strategy only it may have worked. At moral or bodily cost to themselves, of course. So I think here JRRT must have been making a point of the different and contrasting reactions. maybe it would have been more 'human' to react to Isildur and take the Ring (ostensibly to destroy it), perhaps costing lives in the process? Versus the Elven choice - which I wonder, perhaps does originate in a bit of wisdom: Elrond and Cirdan both being wise enough to know that if they possessed the Ring themselves, their path would alter? I wonder if we can see it as an early, quiet test of Elrond (versus Galadriel's overt test) in relation to the rejection of the Ring?
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Feb 23 2014, 6:05pm
Post #118 of 155
(2276 views)
Shortcut
|
They would probably need to use their own Rings to do so.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Isildur was no Gollum, to oblige the Free Peoples by overstepping and falling into the abyss (and unlike the movie-version, there is no reason to suppose he was near). So Elrond and Cirdan would corrupt Vilya and Narya to kill him - the ultimate victory of Sauron, I think! To say nothing of their being unable to let the One Ring go. After such a deed, they would fight each other for its possession.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 23 2014, 6:52pm
Post #120 of 155
(2257 views)
Shortcut
|
Where are Elrond & Isildur at the time if their discussion?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In the movie prologue, they are alone in a chamber with access to Mount Doom's lava. One 'careless' shove
But that's one visualization: they might have been on the battlefield, and if so there might have been a risk of it coming to blows, and then the Last Alliance quickly descending into the Last Battle. It's Elrond and Cirdans inactivity afterwards which now seems odd
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more.... "nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
|
|
|
Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 23 2014, 8:12pm
Post #122 of 155
(2281 views)
Shortcut
|
In the movie prologue, they are alone in a chamber with access to Mount Doom's lava. One 'careless' shove
But that's one visualization: they might have been on the battlefield, and if so there might have been a risk of it coming to blows, and then the Last Alliance quickly descending into the Last Battle. It's Elrond and Cirdans inactivity afterwards which now seems odd
Agreed, in Filmverse the choice is delineated much more clearly: an option is at hand but not taken. I think it is a spotlight on that choice being made: they are alone and in proximity to the fire. From a visual perspective it makes the idea clear that Elrond may have had options, but did not choose to use them (for good or ill). The book-version seems to be on the battlefield I think, with few at close hand. So not the visual element of method and opportunity: plenty of motive, but if the statement of Elrond (which Squire posted) refers to 'greater harm' then the risk of removing it by a bearer of the Three might be simply too present? (Either of them - since Cirdan would have still had Narya.) Absolutely, on the Elven inactivity. Elrond knows (as we see in the Council scene) that there is but one solution, and I note he is never on the short list of candidates.
Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room April, 2014. *The Call for Submissions is up*!
|
|
|
sador
Half-elven
Feb 23 2014, 9:51pm
Post #124 of 155
(2279 views)
Shortcut
|
As far as I remember, squire was quoting Gandalf, explaining why he could not take the Ring from Bilbo.
|
|
|
Meneldor
Valinor
Feb 23 2014, 9:56pm
Post #125 of 155
(2256 views)
Shortcut
|
about the connection between Ulmo and Meriadoc. Although it should probably go into a new thread?
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.
|
|
|
|
|