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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
warner bros has harmed the franchise
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glor
Rohan

Feb 14 2014, 11:05pm

Post #26 of 52 (500 views)
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I might be able to explain Thranduil's absence [In reply to] Can't Post

Lee Pace was not available to do the release promotion circus for DOS. WB being a standard corporate film company did the classic, co-star not available to do promotion upon release, they get downgraded in the promo and marketing for, the actor who could do all the promo work, Evangelina Lily. Unfortunately, as the marketing dept at WB seems to have a massive failure in the understanding the source material department, they failed to consider what a mistake this was. Thus a canon character appears to be usurped by a non-canon one.


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 14 2014, 11:48pm

Post #27 of 52 (486 views)
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I thought GDT conceived that idea [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the character that Tauriel eventually became was created by GDT from the beginning.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Feb 15 2014, 12:50am

Post #28 of 52 (456 views)
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Totally agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no intention of downloading films and messing around with 'clouds', etc., even though I do have a nice sleek Apple Mac (for work purposes).

Part of the joy of these films is to be able to get hold of and keep beautifully produced DVDs, and being able to handle them. The design of the products for the films is incredibly important to me, and the UK EE DVDs have been reasonably well designed, though they are certainly not as good as the LotR DVDs.

In general, though, the marketing for these films has been terrible. I'm sure Warner would have earned more money had they really bothered to research what was best for the market, instead of treating these works as comic-book action films. Typical huge corporation.


In Reply To
Different strokes for different folks - some people (I guess) have a perfectly clean desk w. a sleek Apple and are delighted to not have to have a shelf of DVDs - no clutter. As for BR/DVD packaging, like a beautifully produced book, that's part of the experience of the fan community that WB is making so much money off of. And if the packaging if great I am also going to assume that the DVD/BR itself is beautifully produced and a joy to watch and work through the menus.



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Feb 15 2014, 12:51am)


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 15 2014, 2:06am

Post #29 of 52 (433 views)
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arghh [In reply to] Can't Post

and this doesnt help things now does it, groan.

ok , i submit, the hobbit is going for certain type of fangirl audience, however much i want to love the edgier parts of th efilm, this youtube vid sums up what audience the hobbits is going for it seems


straight from EL twitter, who says there isnt an implied romance now when tauriel admits it!

http://www.youtube.com/...amp;feature=youtu.be

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 15 2014, 1:00pm

Post #30 of 52 (396 views)
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Perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Didn't Philippa Boyens cop to the "romance" angle? I'm pretty sure that she all but admitted that the Kili/Tauriel thing was mostly her idea (or maybe in tandem with Fran Walsh).



I haven't gone out of my way to read every interview and article on the subject. However, some type of romance was planned since the original iteration of the character, before she became Tauriel.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Escapist
Gondor


Feb 15 2014, 1:32pm

Post #31 of 52 (397 views)
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In the ups and downs of any franchise [In reply to] Can't Post

there is a tendency to want to give blame or credit. My problem with that is the fact that a franchise's success and reception is dependent on so many factors so that it would take a major shift or clear mishandling to make that kind of judgment. I also think that while DOS doesn't look likely to crack 1 billion, it has a better critic and audience rating than AUJ and is pretty close (by no means a pan). I don't think that its reception and box office can be reasonably interpreted as signs of something being harmed. You would need to see a much more pronounced drop across multiple categories / measurements of success to make a case for harm. As it is, the many other random factors that impact a film's reception could account for the small drop in box office - no need for any blame.

Which do you think has a bigger impact on a franchise's reception? The font of the typesetting on its EE box sets, or the changing trends of what is in fashion? The tint of a much older and previously released movie EE set, or the set of competing movies that a film has to stand up against? Making a wide variety of posters and advertising to a wide audience or a series of snowstorms literally stopping people from going to the movies?
TH will never be as dramatic, shocking, or dystopian as GOT and Hunger Games. Back when LOTR was topping the charts, its competition and the fashion was Harry Potter - this is a totally different audience and ball game and there is no way that TH stacks up against GOT and the general trend of violence in movies that are winning awards these days in the same way it would stand up next to HP. If a significant amount of the audience has come to enjoy seeing debased spectacle and horrid dystopia and that's what they have a taste for, then they just aren't going to like the innocence and nobility of spirit that Tolkien's works have (and I don't think that making TH all about the necromancer is the answer to this either). As we see from the audience reaction, there are still plenty of people who like innocence and humor and all the other things that TH has to offer, but their numbers aren't as great as they were back when LOTR was the big thing.

The only MMO that I can think of that retained a strong development staff and a consistent player base is WOW. I've seen tons of other games lose staff and get reduced to a minimal shell of a game for the most avid of fans - that's why I lost interest in that kind of pass-time, myself. WB has its work cut out for it if it wants to defy the prevailing trend of failure in trying to compete or keep up with WOW.

Another point: TH:DOS is the top dragon focal feature film in history. That is a success, but if people prefer misbehaving royalty to dragons then such a distinction will only go so far.


Elessar
Valinor


Feb 15 2014, 3:16pm

Post #32 of 52 (364 views)
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Gifts [In reply to] Can't Post

I hear ya. Those have been my #1 item to be included since I saw the AUJ. I love the statue Weta did but am glad someone got a chance to do these for us. I would love it if Weta could do a full environment of them like they did with the Argonath.



Avandel
Half-elven

Feb 15 2014, 3:36pm

Post #33 of 52 (359 views)
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*grins* super sleek computers [In reply to] Can't Post

"nice sleek Apple Mac" - do I sound bitter???Sly I was thinking of this guy I know - for work - but he always seems to have the latest and greatest in the laptop world. Meanwhile I am agonizing over which refurbished PC I should get (tho so far I've had good luck w. rebuilt systems, hope it stays that way).

And then there was that fiasco w. the vanishing I-tunes exclusive.....which I couldn't use anyway.




Avandel
Half-elven

Feb 15 2014, 3:47pm

Post #34 of 52 (372 views)
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Thranduil got attention tho..... [In reply to] Can't Post

From the comments I've read around the web - and I'm hoping re TABA and Lee Pace for DOS they just held his presence back (like "hiding" Bilbo and Thorin all last summer from any interviews, blogs, etc - not that there were many of those). That with TABA we will see a lot w. Thranduil.

Personally since I love folklore hope they do a scene of Thranduil riding out from Mirkwood, tying back to the old legends of the "Wild Hunt" - an angry Elven king.


LordotRings93
Rohan


Feb 15 2014, 5:27pm

Post #35 of 52 (364 views)
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WB had a part to play, yes [In reply to] Can't Post

But the reason The Hobbit just doesn't seem as big and grand as LOTR is because it's nothing new. LOTR was huge for its time due to its filming and sheer scale of the production. And the story was, for film, something new and it wasn't a cliche fantasy film with bad CGI and corny acting and dialogue. And another thing hurting Hobbit I think is Game Of Thrones, which is in the spotlight for medieval-fantasy at the moment, and deservedly so, as it does offer much more than TH is. GoT is the new LOTR from 2001. It's revolutionizing the genre like GRRM's books did, with a diverse cast of characters who are not your typical heroes and an outstanding plot that leaves you on the edge of your seat awaiting the next book/episode. GoT changed the way people perceive the genre, and I know after reading ASOIAF reading other fantasy series is kind of "eh", since they're predictable and you know the hero will escape and defeat the bad guy.

Anyway, sorry for going off topic, but it's true that TH's just not as big since it's really nothing new. I love each Hobbit film as equally as LOTR, but the marketing and the thrill of collecting merchandise and seeing advertisements just isn't there as it was with LOTR.

Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."


glor
Rohan

Feb 15 2014, 10:00pm

Post #36 of 52 (331 views)
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Excellent points [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Back when LOTR was topping the charts, its competition and the fashion was Harry Potter - this is a totally different audience and ball game and there is no way that TH stacks up against GOT and the general trend of violence in movies that are winning awards these days in the same way it would stand up next to HP


I think you may have hit on something else there, the source material for LOTR had the broader more 'adult'(for want of a better word) themes of mass destruction, the power of evil than The Hobbit. LOTR has been viewed since it was published as a novel with big themes and metaphors on war and the nature of power even if that wasn't Tolkien's intent. This meant that the film adaptation of LOTR was able to be viewed via the prism of those themes by the contemporary Hugo Dyson's of this world who were able to leave their hatred or just plain bafflement of fantasy in the foyer of the cinema.

Themes and metaphors are prevalent in GOT and Battle Royale, oops I mean Hunger GamesEvil, a franchise that has had it's fortunes lifted by the incidental inclusion of one of the finest young female acting talents we have seen in decades and, Lawrence has the Oscar to prove it. The Hobbit is unashamedly high fantasy, it does for those of familiar with Tolkien's work have themes and metaphors but they are not realised until the final acts, as a child I recall why the Hobbit stuck so firmly in my mind, it starts off as a fairy story and ends in madness, greed, death and a great deal of poignancy. To those viewing the Hobbit via the multiplex screen, it's just a fairy story at this point as unlike GOT, The Hunger Games or LOTR, the themes are not laid out at the start of the narrative but revealed at the end.
( as an aside: this is why some here, like myself that TABA may stand more chance at the awards than the first two trilogy installments).

This means that for those who have difficulties with the fantasy genre TH causes them problems, it brings out every prejudice but instead of 'Oh God, not another elf' we got 'Oh God, not another dwarf'. GOT and HG don't present the audience with that difficulty because neither are high fantasy and as I have already said both lay their thematic cards on the table from the start of the narrative. As a result,TH has become the whipping boy for every fantasy hater who was too afraid to be the lone voice speaking out against the most successful and highly praised trilogy in cinema history, they get to shout even scream in some cases their derision, which isn't so much about the film itself but about the genre.


Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Feb 16 2014, 1:25am

Post #37 of 52 (305 views)
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What evedence is there to back up this statement? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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BalrogTrainer
Rivendell

Feb 16 2014, 2:11am

Post #38 of 52 (302 views)
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Like it or not... [In reply to] Can't Post

... the home video environment has changed since the LOTR trilogy came out. There are few releases now on which a studio will go 'whole hog,' so to speak. Also, blame New Line and their squandering of their LOTR fortune with a series of poor business decisions that caused them to have to go completely crawling back into the WB fold in the first place. Unimpressed


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Feb 16 2014, 9:01am

Post #39 of 52 (304 views)
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The only interview I've seen on that subject.... [In reply to] Can't Post

is one where PB says that Tauriel was created early on in the scriptwriting process while GDT was still onboard, and that (her words) GDT "was very supportive of the idea..."


Does not indicate it was his idea, particularly.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Feb 16 2014, 1:44pm

Post #40 of 52 (282 views)
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The only other thing that I recall [In reply to] Can't Post

Is Philippa stating that adding the so-called love triangle aspect was her idea, contradicting EL's previous assertion that she had been told that that idea had come from the studio.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Feb 16 2014, 5:26pm

Post #41 of 52 (246 views)
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That game.. don't get me started [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems like an excuse to set Assassin's Creed in Middle Earth. Which'd be fine if, you know, they didn't completely blow off the moral framework of the legendarium Mad

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Rowan Greene
Lorien


Feb 16 2014, 8:31pm

Post #42 of 52 (260 views)
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Interviews... [In reply to] Can't Post

From the casting call:

Quote
“ITARIL - female, A woodland Elf, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27.”

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/...e-hobbit-389319.html

Quote
Philippa Boyens has revealed that Guillermo Del Toro was a huge supporter of creating female elf character Tauriel in The Hobbit.

Del Toro was originally set to direct The Hobbit and worked with Boyens, Fran Walsh and Peter Jackson.

Tauriel is a character that has been created especially for the movie, and Del Toro was keen to see her inclusion in the movie.

Speaking to Total Film, Boyens said: "He was there when we decided [on] the female character. And he was very much a strong supporter of that.

"What was nice about it is that you’re taking a risk. You’re messing with somebody else’s story, and you have to kind of do it the right way. And [del Toro] was someone who was, like, ‘Yes, we should do this!’"


http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/...desolation-of-smaug/

Quote
Philippa Boyens I remember that phone call, and I remember that moment where I said, “The love story, it’s not a conventional love story.” And you were like, “Right, OK …” “With a Dwarf.” And there was silence, and then I went, “But hang on, I’m going to send you his photo! It’s Aidan Turner, so it’s OK!” I did, and then you went, “OK, yeah yeah …”

Lilly: She did. She goes, “He is soooo handsome. Just wait and see.” But also at that moment when she said there’s a love story — Phil might not remember this, but I agreed to the job under one condition. One condition, and they agreed to the condition, and that condition was in place for two years. The condition was I will not be involved in a love triangle. Right? Because any of you who are fans of Lost, I’ve had it up to here with love triangles. And sure enough, I come back for reshoots in 2012 and they go, “We’ve made a few adjustments to the love story.”

Boyens: Well, it was a “whoops” moment. That was genuine, there really wasn’t a triangle, there wasn’t. But what happened was when we saw it playing and just that first look between Kili and Legolas, that kind of exchange of looks, was so perfect that we were like … And also interesting with Legolas, because one of the things we were trying to do was he hates Dwarves in The Fellowship of the Ring. There’s this animosity, this whole kind of … that had to have come from somewhere. What was it about? And we wanted to make it a little bit more emotional than just, “I don’t like them.”

Lilly: And that played well.

Boyens: And then also when you came back, I said to her, “Oh, no, God,” I said, “Hang on. Orlando Bloom, Aidan Turner – you’re caught between the two of them. I’m sorry, what’s the problem?”


Sounds like it was PJ, Boyens, and Walsh's idea and GDT supported it as mentioned in above interviews:
http://herocomplex.latimes.com/...ns-talks-tauriel/#/0

Quote
When it came time to craft “The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug,” the second installment in their latest trilogy of movies based on the work of J.R.R. Tolkien, filmmaker Peter Jackson and his screenwriting partners Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens had a decision to make. The story, as they saw it, was crying out for a dynamic female character. So, they invented one.


In Reply To
is one where PB says that Tauriel was created early on in the scriptwriting process while GDT was still onboard, and that (her words) GDT "was very supportive of the idea..."


Does not indicate it was his idea, particularly.




(This post was edited by Rowan Greene on Feb 16 2014, 8:36pm)


Avandel
Half-elven

Feb 16 2014, 10:16pm

Post #43 of 52 (247 views)
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as an aside re EL - again ): [In reply to] Can't Post

"Phil might not remember this, but I agreed to the job under one condition. One condition, and they agreed to the condition, and that condition was in place for two years. The condition was I will not be involved in a love triangle. Right? Because any of you who are fans of Lost, I’ve had it up to here with love triangles."

It's remarks like this from EL that make me less fond of her as a person (am being polite here). Every time I feel a bit better about the character Tauriel - if I had been PJ etc. I would have politely thanked EL and just put out a casting call - even if according to PJ only 15% of the people or so worldwide have the body type and look to play an elf, bet there are plenty of dancers on the Broadway circuit alone who can act who would have slept in a truck bed in New Zealand for the part. IMO she's not a Cate Blanchett or Ian Mckellen who justifiably can ask for "conditions" and as far as I know none of the high-level actors ever did. What a contrast - Ian Mckellen crying because he was so frustrated and feeling like a failure re the green screen work, RA not unpacking for 3 weeks because he was afraid he would be sent home, Jeb Brophy crying and screaming when he got the part, Lee Pace walking alone in the woods to feel his part, and so on - meh. EL just seems so OBLIVIOUS at times and what was Boyens thinking - maybe someday Philipa will face the fans who were less than enthused.

I know Tauriel and Legolas have fans but this:

Lilly says Tauriel will get a similar amount of screentime in ‘There and Back Again’ as her warrior elf enjoys in ‘Smaug’, including the conclusion of her unusual love triangle with Legolas and dwarf Kili.
“You’ll probably see an equal split between fighting and emotion and character development, which I think is a nice balance. And more romance… but I won’t tell you who with!”
http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/...80%9D-154348156.html

UnsureSigh. So much for ratcheting down the screen time spent on this [useless] STUFF and having more Thrandul screentime instead (don't think PJ will cut down on Bilbo/Thorin/dwarves, Dol Guldur, or Smaug/Bard/Laketown). Of course during the actual editing of TABA no one can tell what PJ is going to do, and the actors never know what the final will look like no matter how much is footage is done.






Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Feb 17 2014, 12:59am

Post #44 of 52 (206 views)
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My problem with The Hobbit trilogy thus far... [In reply to] Can't Post

...isn't that it is taking too long to get to the adult themes.

My problem lies in the fact that too much of what I am seeing onscreen is contradictory to Tolkien's version of the events. The LotR films had moments of contradiction, but IMO nothing that compares to the liberties taken with The Hobbit. I understand that Jackson and Co.'s first priority is to make films that appeal to as many people as possible, but it's at the point now where it just is not The Hobbit anymore, but neither is it "The Quest of Erebor" (which I think is sort of what Jackson set out to do). The appendices material doesn't even come close to being well-represented. Trying to spot Tolkien in these movies is like looking at a "Where's Waldo" book.


Thyia
Bree

Feb 17 2014, 1:13am

Post #45 of 52 (208 views)
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Tired of assumptions... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

UnsureSigh. So much for ratcheting down the screen time spent on this [useless] STUFF and having more Thrandul screentime instead (don't think PJ will cut down on Bilbo/Thorin/dwarves, Dol Guldur, or Smaug/Bard/Laketown). Of course during the actual editing of TABA no one can tell what PJ is going to do, and the actors never know what the final will look like no matter how much is footage is done.


I understand that some people want there to be less of Tauriel etc., in TABA but there was never any indication that that was ever actually going to happen, other than perhaps, wishful thinking. Just because EL states that there will be about the same amount of Tauriel in the third movie doesn't automatically mean that TABA will be Thranduil-lite. That's a huge assumption! I see no reason to assume that Thranduil will not play a large part in movie three, and the BO5A. Cutting Tauriel doesn't necessarily equal more Thranduil. There were numerous scenes that could have been cut down in DoS to make more time for Thranduil, but they weren't. I can't wait for the EE to see what gets added back in, and I can't wait for the third film to see how it all plays out.


(This post was edited by Thyia on Feb 17 2014, 1:14am)


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 17 2014, 6:59am

Post #46 of 52 (192 views)
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Thanks for the interviews [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if any one person is responsible for Tauriel, but it seems like she was created pretty early on, at least back when GDT was still on board.

I think giving her a love story was there from the beginning, but the love triangle involving Legolas was later tacked on by Boyens. One of her not-so-good ideas IMO.


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Feb 17 2014, 7:00am)


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 17 2014, 7:07am

Post #47 of 52 (193 views)
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Have to agree [In reply to] Can't Post

EL wasn't bad, but in my books she is no Sir Ian McKellen or Cate Blanchett.

As for Boyens, I don't know. My opinion of her contributions to PJ's Middle Earth films is mixed. She had some good ideas and some not-so-good ideas.


Rowan Greene
Lorien


Feb 17 2014, 2:19pm

Post #48 of 52 (178 views)
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Sounds like she was created during the early brainstorming... [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed. It seems like it was a "group" effort. Plus, the casting call makes it appear they did have plans for Tauriel (then called Itaril) to fall in love with an 'elf lord' (most likely Legolas). It would also appear she initially wasn't written as the Captain of the Guard but a trainee with hopes of eventually joining the guard. Go figure.

From the casting call:

Quote
“ITARIL - female, A woodland Elf, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27.”



In Reply To
I don't know if any one person is responsible for Tauriel, but it seems like she was created pretty early on, at least back when GDT was still on board.

I think giving her a love story was there from the beginning, but the love triangle involving Legolas was later tacked on by Boyens. One of her not-so-good ideas IMO.




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 17 2014, 3:57pm

Post #49 of 52 (165 views)
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There was also an ELF-LORD OF RIVENDELL in the casting call. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't know if any one person is responsible for Tauriel, but it seems like she was created pretty early on, at least back when GDT was still on board.

I think giving her a love story was there from the beginning, but the love triangle involving Legolas was later tacked on by Boyens. One of her not-so-good ideas IMO.



It was generally assumed at the time that the ELF-LORD OF RIVENDELL, not Legolas, would be the love interest for Itaril. However, the idea of Tauriel having developed a crush on her foster brother does have a certain logic, especially since the part of the ELF LORD seems to have vanished. The whole Kili/Tauriel relationship is another matter; 'though it hasn't been too overplayed so far.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 17 2014, 4:01pm)


Avandel
Half-elven

Feb 17 2014, 4:32pm

Post #50 of 52 (153 views)
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agree [In reply to] Can't Post

"EL wasn't bad, but in my books she is no Sir Ian McKellen or Cate Blanchett."

Agree - the character presented for me was a pleasant surprise, and she does look like she can fight, which is half that part anyway.

"As for Boyens, I don't know. My opinion of her contributions to PJ's Middle Earth films is mixed. She had some good ideas and some not-so-good ideas. "

Have to give her respect as one of the writers, IMO a lot of the AUJ and DOS dialogue has been wonderful, with some great lines and speeches. And she seems to genuinely enjoy what she's doing and have an affection of sorts for the actors, which is refreshing.

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