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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Tauriel could have been a good character...
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book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 6:14pm

Post #51 of 113 (849 views)
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disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

 
aside from films being adaptions, i i completely disagree with everything youve said with a passion.

an adaption doesnt have to mean you add in characters if anything you remove them.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 6:29pm

Post #52 of 113 (838 views)
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What part of the Hobbit being 3 movies [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't you understand? With all due respect, making one book into three long movies means that we will undoubtedly get extra characters. Now you can go criticize that The Hobbit should have been one movie instead of three (We all now know the two film model would have had exactly the same stuff so let's not complain that it should've been two) rather than choosing one character to blame.

We've had a lot of new characters (who weren't in the book) in the movies.

Azog
Sauron
Radagast
Legolas
Tauriel
Alfrid
Galadriel
Saruman

By your judgement, this is a bad adaptation because it has, let's say, Sauron? Radagast? Galadriel?

And I do believe that we all wanted (of course, some would have wanted only one) more than one Hobbit movie. Whether or not the movies are good is a different matter.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Elessar
Valinor


Feb 12 2014, 6:32pm

Post #53 of 113 (809 views)
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Its all good [In reply to] Can't Post

I apologize for thinking you meant it another way.Cool



Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 12 2014, 6:34pm

Post #54 of 113 (830 views)
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I don't agree with your ... [In reply to] Can't Post

...message sonny.

******************************************


May 1910: The Nine Kings assembled at Buckingham Palace for the funeral of Edward VII.
(From left to right, back row: Haakon VII of Norway, Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, Manuel II of Portugal, Wilhelm II of Germany, George I of Greece, and Albert I of Belgium. Front row: Alphonso XIII of Spain, George V of England, and Frederick VIII of Denmark.)


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 6:51pm

Post #55 of 113 (803 views)
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I'm not sure what you mean [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see how appreciating Tauriel's art design and finding her love story with Kili cliched and stereotyped is ironic. I mean, the shouldn't the two not be mutually exclusive? Unsure


(This post was edited by 7.62 mm FMJ on Feb 12 2014, 6:52pm)


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 6:51pm

Post #56 of 113 (834 views)
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blah blah [In reply to] Can't Post

so make it 2 movies! or even one! if your making cheesy storylines up just to fill three films, why make three films!

what i wanted from the hobbit would take more than a simple reply, so im not going to rebut what your saying, but at the core of the issues i think tauriel epitomises everything wrong with these adaptations. not the individual speeches about starlight, or her music, or how she acts or what she wears, but story and character.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.

(This post was edited by book Gandalf on Feb 12 2014, 6:59pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Feb 12 2014, 6:58pm

Post #57 of 113 (806 views)
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Middle Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

Because one aspect of adapting these novels on screen is to bring the world of Middle Earth to life for an audience that includes many non-book-readers.
The last time I read the novels, they still seemed to me to be set in a wondrously detailed and believable imaginary world. One which, like ours, is inhabited by species which have individuals of two sexes.



jkm7
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 7:06pm

Post #58 of 113 (816 views)
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characters [In reply to] Can't Post

Making the Hobbit into 3 movies would have been a wonderful chance to expand canon characters. Characters that are in Tolkien's books. But especially with the additon of Tauriel they take time away from the book characters and take away some of the best scenes in the book (introduction to Beorn, Feast of Starlight, getting lost in Mirkwood with Bombur having to be carried) All those things I would have loved to see. Instead we get a discussion on who Tauriel has a crush on and an embarrassing, cringeworthy healing scene. I would have much prefered to see more of the dwarves, especially Fili, who is the heir to the throne after Thorin, but is reduced to being a sidekick who gets to scream "Kili" every so often. Inventing a superfluous character with an unneccessary lovestory taking screentime away from canon characters and discard some of the nicest scenes in the book just doesn't make sense to me.


(This post was edited by jkm7 on Feb 12 2014, 7:08pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 12 2014, 7:19pm

Post #59 of 113 (796 views)
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None? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
if you want interesting well written female characters, dont read tolkien or see tolkien films.

tolkien is all about wizards, hobbits,warriors, dragons,. monsters and goblins, dont expect three dimensional modern women. if you want that go see the thousands other pieces of literature and film that deals with these areas.

this is my problem with tauriel. she is written in by a modern writer working for a studio that wants to change the story.

im not saying that there shouldnt interesting female characters, im just saying ther isnt any in this story, and thats just how it is. take it or leave it, i dont see why it had to be changed.



Galadriel isn't an interesting, well-written character? She is the ruler (okay, co-ruler) of an entire Elven nation. She admits that she has contemplated what she might accomplish if she possessed the One Ring. She is freely offered the Ring and has the willpower to reject it because she realizes what it would ultimately do to her.

Eowyn is one of the most modern, self-empowered female characters that Tolkien ever created. She rejects her traditional role in Rohirrim society to become a warrior in order to protect her kin. Nothing interesting in that?

And then there is Luthien, who rescues her beloved Beren and brings down a stronghold of Sauron--with song.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 7:26pm

Post #60 of 113 (800 views)
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True but [In reply to] Can't Post

I am positive that the EE will be great! Do not be disheartened :)

I hated that they cut Beorn but it's understandable since it's just another "road block" as they critics say.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Elarie
Grey Havens

Feb 12 2014, 8:19pm

Post #61 of 113 (783 views)
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Has Kili ever seen a female warrior before? [In reply to] Can't Post

This thread has made me wonder about something in the film. When Tauriel killed the spider with her knife throw, Kili's expression seemed to be one of real surprise. I hadn't thought much about it and assumed he was just impressed with her knife throwing skills, but now I'm wondering if maybe he looked so amazed because he'd never seen a woman warrior before.

The only Middle Earth culture I can think of that has a shield-maiden tradition is Rohan (vikings on horseback as somebody once described them). So, is Kili totally fascinated by the first female warrior he's ever encountered?


Elanor of Rohan
Lorien


Feb 12 2014, 8:50pm

Post #62 of 113 (770 views)
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Probably not [In reply to] Can't Post

but I think that he looks surprised more because of Tauriel's feat than because of her being a female elf warrior.
In answer to Annatar, Kili's fingers are fat because he must look like a Dwarf (neither a human nor an elf nor a hobbit) so, in order to avoid the T-Rex effect of huge body with tiny tiny hands and fingers, all the actors had to wear prosthetic gloves up to their elbows.
Maybe only a part of us watch the EE behind-the-scenesAngelic


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 8:53pm

Post #63 of 113 (759 views)
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hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

how many words does arwen speak in lotr book? how many pages does galadriel take up? they dont actually appear much, eowyn is really the only character we get to know.

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 12 2014, 8:57pm

Post #64 of 113 (760 views)
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There is a reason why I never mentioned Arwen [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right that she doesn't make a significant contribution to the books. Lady Galadriel, for tthe brief time that she gets, has a much greater impact by comparison.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 12 2014, 8:57pm)


Thranderz
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 9:01pm

Post #65 of 113 (741 views)
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Do you think [In reply to] Can't Post

you could perhaps try to see both sides? You may even come to tolerate Tauriel and Azog? Tongue

I simply walked into Mordor.


Elarie
Grey Havens

Feb 12 2014, 9:19pm

Post #66 of 113 (736 views)
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Arwen's influence [In reply to] Can't Post

I always thought Arwen's influence in LOTR was very interesting because it's so indirect but powerful. Elrond tells Aragorn that he can't marry Arwen unless he becomes king of Gondor, and that directs Aragorn down a specific life path that has a huge influence on events later on. At the time when Aragorn and Arwen fell in love, no one knew there was going to be a big war, that Minas Tirith would be attacked, etc. but when all of that happened, Aragorn was prepared for his role by his life's work up to that point. It has that element of things that were "meant to be" like so many other things in LOTR.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 12 2014, 9:23pm

Post #67 of 113 (730 views)
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While all that is true [In reply to] Can't Post

We never get to know Arwen as a character. She barely appears in the book and is never developed. Arwen in the films is a much better realized character.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 9:26pm

Post #68 of 113 (730 views)
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yes but.. [In reply to] Can't Post

its all rosie cottons fault!

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


book Gandalf
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 9:27pm

Post #69 of 113 (717 views)
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azog [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
you could perhaps try to see both sides? You may even come to tolerate Tauriel and Azog? Tongue


now dont getme started on azog, i think he is the worst thing ever!

This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party.


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 12 2014, 10:40pm

Post #70 of 113 (711 views)
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Fair enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

I still don't see her as very well rounded. If she is meant to not be flawless, I don't think the film did a good job conveying that.


marillaraina
Rohan


Feb 12 2014, 11:07pm

Post #71 of 113 (701 views)
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subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but you are completely wrong here:

Quote
Tauriel does NOT return the hand-holding. She doesn't even flinch as a matter of fact.


Here's a video of the scene, though I know there are multiple out there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeJFZ48oRRA

Their fingers lace at the end and yes, she helps it happen.

Finally,

Quote
And for the LAST TIME, jeeeez Tauriel doesn't love him. This isn't a shoddy love story as some here put it! It isn't even a love story, actually.


That's just your opinion. Others opinions are not right or wrong. The fact that so many people are seeing some sort of romantic relationship should tell you something. It's built up in a manner that can be taken either way. If you don't see it romantically, fine, but that remains only your opinion.


It's true. And ultimately no one was forcing her to keep her hand there. If anything even if she hadn't "helped" it along at all, the point is, she sure didn't pull her hand away when she easily could have.

Now I happen to like Kili and Tauriel and think they have a very sweet relationship, it's not a full blown "love affair" but I think whatever it is, is from both sides of the equation and I don't think it's silly or shallow. So this doesn't bother me, to me her hesitation is less about not feeling and more about just being unsure about how to act on her feelings.

ETA: Fat fingers? One of the things that was mentioned a bunch of times when the film first came out, particularly by those who didn't like the scene, was about how obvious it was he wasn't wearing the hand prosthetic during this scene, those are his fingers and they aren't fat. They are long and while not super slender, not the most rugged looking of hands either. Which I think was for aesthetic reasons, those prosthoetics really don't look that great, pay too much attention and they look like "prosthetics" and there is a strict focus on the hands in that scene.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Feb 12 2014, 11:14pm)


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 4:15am

Post #72 of 113 (682 views)
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I think otherwise! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think she is a fascinating character - for an Elf. But of course, I do acknowledge that it is easy to find issues with an invented character like hers. I personally feel Tauriel adds depth and dimension not only to these Hobbit movies (which are sometimes lacking in depth - I'm not a fan of the Hobbit book so I don't agree that the movies should mirror the simplicity of the source material) but the race of Elves in general.

That whole scene with Thranduil where he basically snubs her about partnering up with Legolas tells us a lot about her character.

Her expression when he confirms that she is just a "lowly Silvan Elf" and will be nothing more is heartbreaking. It's a sudden realization that, as usual, her "Elf-hood" will only mean that she remains the same for many many years.

And despite all that, she's full of hope. She's full of hope that there is a future for her out there "beyond the forest." She's essentially the timeless literary character to break away from the confines of their society. Kili instigates her longing desire to "drift" because I can imagine he is the only outsider to ever connect with her in that way. And also of course, fascination of something you cannot have is a major factor.

Perhaps Tauriel's "problem" is that she is more human than she is an Elf? You could argue there that the writers are playing with identities and personalities of different races in ME. You could go so far as to say she's badly written as an Elf.

Evangeline Lily really did shine in this role. She captures the naiveté and ethereal qualities of Elves in a magnificent way. I will say again that the Feast of Starlight scene is the best written dialogue in these Hobbit movies! Also it is scored really well.

On a sidenote: How on Earth did Thorin not catch Tauriel and Kili flirting? The dwarves were practically caged wall-to-wall!

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


7.62 mm FMJ
Bree


Feb 13 2014, 6:40am

Post #73 of 113 (652 views)
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Here's the issue [In reply to] Can't Post

I still feel that the film makes her appear as pretty much the only voice of reason. She's always "doing what's right," and that makes it seem like she has no flaws.

In any case, for the Feast of Starlight conversation, I still would've preferred that Tauriel is more standoff-ish and perhaps more stern, i.e. more fitting relationship between a guard and prisoner.


Annatar598
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 6:46am

Post #74 of 113 (649 views)
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Bard is another voice of reason [In reply to] Can't Post

As is Balin. And obviously Gandalf.

I think Tauriel stands out for you because she's the ONLY Elf in The Hobbit being a rational voice of reason.

Oh but she does have flaws. She doesn't follow orders. Bolg would have been defeated had both Legolas and Tauriel confronted him.

And assuming what's in store for Bolg will have terrible consequences for Thorin, Bolg's defeat in DOS could have averted much.

As for the guard and prisoner relationship, that conversation was right after Thranduil put her down. She was clearly devastated.

"[Annatar598] is an overzealous apologist [for PJ]" - Certain TORn member.

Really? Alright...

Well, proud to be one I guess.


Bernhardina
Rohan


Feb 13 2014, 9:22am

Post #75 of 113 (649 views)
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Interested to see where they are going with Tauriel in TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO Tauriel does not show any affection towards Kili other than protectiveness after their conversation in the elven dungeons. That's not love. I can't say I get the impression that Kili loves her even. I just think he fancies elves and like someone said, she returns that attention.


So wait for TABA before you talk of any romance. It is possible there won't be any. When are they going to have time to be romantic anyway? There's a dragon comming for them and after that a huge battle where Kili dies.


What you really should be annoyed by is that they completely ruined the character of Legolas by making him a jealous jerk.


I am very interested in Tauriels fate. I think she is probably going to die too, but she gave us some clues when she talked about "the world falling away and the white light forever fill the air". I suspect that's a hint of what's going to happen to her, writers love to foreshadow those sort of things.



(This post was edited by Bernhardina on Feb 13 2014, 9:24am)

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