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RR Discussion: The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:29am

Post #1 of 117 (1797 views)
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RR Discussion: The Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Can't Post

Here by popular demand, we will be discussing this amazing piece of Arda-ian philosophical dialogue--the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth. This is a discussion suggested by members, and for the members. Jump in and comment if you have an opinion--no prior experience necessary. You can find the text in question, in book X of the History of Middle-Earth series: Morgoth's Ring.
Now let me explain what I have done here: In light of this 20+ page essay being crammed into one week, I have chosen to break this enormous buffet down into several chronological, but self-contained topics. The flow of the essay drifts between several general ideas, so I have separated them into separate posts. The main reason that prompted this discussion,( The matter of Hope/Estel/Amdir) can be found in the penultimate section entitled ‘What is Hope?’ I would highly recommend the last two or three sections,(not including ‘Final Notes’) they get at the heart of the issue, the ante-penultimate is not as important, but lays the foundation for the last two.
As a final note, I would recommend this book to anyone who wants to dig deeper into the Legendarium. It, more so than other book in the HoME, contains full and complete texts that may have been fully integrated into the published canon. If not, it at least saves us some of the frustration found in the Unfinished Tales.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:30am

Post #2 of 117 (1451 views)
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Prefaces and Introductions [In reply to] Can't Post

The editorial introduction by CT (Christopher Tolkien) begins by noting ‘...{this} is a major and finished work, and is referred to elsewhere {In Tolkien's notes and writings}, as if it had...some "authority"'{Bracketed words are added for clarity}

In light of this, would you consider it 'canon'?


A title was present only in the MS copy, 'Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men', later sub-titled 'The Converse of Finrod and Andreth'. It was originally prefaced by a general essay on the natural philosophy of Arda. The preface was later removed and expanded, forming its own essay entitled 'Aman'. There is contextual basis to believe that the ‘Athrabeth’ was completed after another oft referenced essay, 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar'.

Do you think this split indicates that the Athrabeth is more philosophical, historical, or narrative? Why the split? Did the subject simply get too long to be contained in one essay? Do you think it was intended to get so philosophical?


On to the extant preface:

The Eldar learned from Men, that they (Men) believed that their bodies(hröar) were not naturally short lived, but rather corrupted, whether by Melkor's especial meddling, or a general effect of 'Arda Marred'. Men linked this marring directly to their diminished lifespan. Elves believed that if the mortality of Men had come by interference (direct or indirect) of Melkor, then it boded ill for all who opposed him, as it testified of a great and potent capacity for evil. If so, they wondered what men could have been like before their waning. Many Elves were not so inclined, believing rather, that Men were naturally short-lived.



So here are the two general views held by two different groups.
Which appeals/appealed to you first?


The two characters in the dialogue are now introduced:

Finrod: Wisest of the Exiles, and more concerned with abstraction and philosophy than technical matters. He was an ardent Anthrophile,(a student of Mankind) and earned the name 'Friend of Man'.

A Noldorin (Knowledgeable Elves renowned for their skill in handiwork) who cares less for crafts, and more for philosophy? Does this juxtaposition strike you?


Andreth: A wise woman of the House of Bëor, sister of Bregor, father of Barahir, father of Beren. So this makes her the great-aunt of Beren. She was accounted wise, and well-versed in the histories and lore of Men. For her accomplishments the Eldar called her 'Wise-Heart'. Her familiarity extended, not only to the lore of her people, the people of Bëor, but also her kinswoman, Adanel's, namely the House of Marach, ruled by Hador.

Andreth is tied to many of the prominent Men of the Elder Days.
What effect might this, almost noble, position have?


It is said that Men were 'loth{sic}' to share their lore or histories, 'even among themselves'. Fear seems to be the motivation of silence, but there is also a fear of forgetting. They keep a close coterie of trusted ones who keep the legends in remembrance.

Would this closeness have hindered, or aided accurate record keeping?



Andreth goes against this trend, sharing information with Finrod.

Why?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:31am

Post #3 of 117 (1455 views)
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The Mortality is a lie. [In reply to] Can't Post

Finrod visits the leader of the Folk of Bëor, Belemir, perhaps to express his condolences on the death of Boron, the former chief. He 'falls' into conversation with Andreth, expressing his grief at the deaths of those he knew. He says that their life was too short for his liking, to which Andreth replies with an affirmation that Men's lives were longer now, than they had been under the Shadow of Evil. Finrod then ask if they are content, to which Andreth responds that they are not. Finrod is puzzled, and asks what effect the Shadow has upon their mortality, positing that Eru must have been the source of their being, thus their limited span of years is assumed, by him, to be natural.



Finrod seems to be in ignorance here.
Perhaps this is their first meeting, or Finrod's first foray into his studies of Men? Maybe he had been studying Men from an Elf-centric view, and has faulty preconceptions?


Andreth then says that Elves in general, whether they be Moriquendi or High Elves, seem to share the idea that Men are doomed to die quickly. She says that it is also assumed by Elves, that, though they are ‘Children of Eru’ as well, Men are less than they, and consequently looked down upon. Finrod sadly agrees that many Elves do have this superior attitude. He quickly separates himself from this majority, and he also qualifies the thought by assuring her that when Elves speak of Men as ‘Children of Eru’, they do not use that term lightly. He reassured her that the Elves do see Men as close kindred, infinitely dearer than all other living things that fade. He then asks if they are wrong in assuming that Men inherently fade quickly, as do all other things.


Finrod here illuminates the opinion of the Elven majority. He also tries to raise Andreth's estimation of their own opinion of Men, by setting Men apart from birds, beasts, plants, and closer to themselves, the Eldar, but he then asks if their mortality is not part of their nature, indirectly comparing Men to the things from which he had previously tried to set them apart.
Does this apparent contradiction in thought, belie his ignorance or an unconsciously held idea of Elven superiority?
He expresses a desire to learn though, so that eliminates the possibility of irredeemable pride, in my eyes.


Andreth then corrects Finrod, saying that she believes the disinformation to have been bred by the Shadow. Among Men, she reveals that there are many opinions. The popular one is that it had always been so, man was naturally short lived. She depreciates this view as the unlearned account, and states that there are others, called 'Wise', who do not think so. Even among the dissenters, there is dissent, and they cannot win many to their side, having little to no proof; instead they rely on 'lore'. This source, she disparages as unreliable, but ultimately containing elements of truth. She says that most of the dissent comes from the Wise of Marach, and that they have retained better memory of the early days and Eru. The people of Marach hold that Men had more longevity, and became lesser through the interference of Melkor.


Andreth's use of the word 'lore' would seem to be slightly negative. She doesn't rely upon it totally, knowing that legends and errors have crept in, but in learning of Adanel, she seems to value it. Indeed many of her thoughts seem to be borrowed from Adanel.
How do you think that this impacts the integrity of the traditions, and thus her side of the argument?
Her beliefs, in contrast to Finrod's, seem to be more tenuous. Finrod has what he considers to be facts, perhaps gleaned from firsthand experience, or in Valinor. Men do not have tangible evidence, yet Andreth seems to be convinced in her own way.
What are your thoughts on the two types of confidence expressed?


Finrod responds that the idea of the waning of Men, due to Melkor's influence, is plausible. Even among the Elves, a lessening is noted. They are not so tall, or resilient as those who came before. He says that the original intent for both peoples, must then be altered somewhat, and the extent and fullness of decay may not be understood for many years. He then postulates that since they are further from the source of decay, Melkor, Men will regain some, if not most, of their intended vitality.

Finrod seems to think that 'Arda Marred', the decay of what was supposed to be, acts more like a localised poison. If one could remove the source, (i.e. Melkor) or get further from it, the world would become better, and return to the way it was meant to be.


Andreth remonstrates with him vehemently. She says that ‘You do not understand…We were not made for deathDeath was imposed upon us.’(Emphasis, mine) She further expresses the opinion that there is no hope for Men to escape death in Arda. Even if they came to Valinor, death would follow. The hope that brought them out of the Shadow was empty in a way—it did not deliver them from death. Even on the march, this was recognised, but that did not convince anyone to stop. Death is inescapable.

Andreth seems to make a rather proud and bitter complaint—‘Death was imposed upon us’. She also seems sadly fatalistic about the fate of Men within Arda. How do you feel about these statements? Does it make Andreth more, or less sympathetic?


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:31am

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Finrod pauses, then gives Andreth a warning. He says that she speaks as if she has been terribly wronged, and wishes to spread the pain to others. He agrees that if all of the ‘Wise’ speak so, he can understand her despair. He also clarifies that neither he nor any of the Quendi gain any joy from the suffering of Men. He warns that Melkor has tainted her perception, and that she must be careful in her judgment. She blames Melkor, for the imposition of death upon Men, and equates Death with the Shadow. In escaping one, they would escape the other, in her logic. Finrod is doubtful of this, for if they two were the same, then death would not be present at all. He thinks that death, is a tainted article, originally good, but perverted by evil. If the original article had survived, he supposes, it wouldn’t have such a bad name.

Finrod begins to cast doubt upon Andreth’s views. He thinks that Eru had a good end in mind for Men. He also believes that Melkor is the source of all of the doubt and evil.
Do you think that Finrod is right? Was there an ultimate good intended, or was there an intentional mix of good and evil?
Melkor gets the credit for all the evil. Is that right?

Andreth responds with a query, as to what Elves know of death. Finrod responds that Elves do know death, and do fear it, perhaps as Men do. Finrod states that he has lost his grandfather, and seen his friends die horrible deaths. The Elves have died, and have suffered, to an incomplete, perhaps futile end—they have not removed evil; they have only forestalled it.

Is this Finrod’s chance to be bitter?

Andreth asks if the Exiles did not come solely to regain their plundered treasure {The Silmarils}. She then concedes that the House of Finarfin might have different aims than that of Feanor. She then reiterates her question, ‘What do Elves really know of death?’ She says that it must be an inconvenience, but not as painful as for Men, for Elves may yet return to life in a reincarnation. Life and Death are cyclical, whereas for Men it is linear, with a final ending. She then repeats her claim that it is wrong and unjust. Finrod responds with an attempted summary of Andreth’s thoughts:
There are two deaths, he posits:
‘A death that is harm and loss, but not an end’—Which she perceives as the lot of the Elves
‘A death that is an end, and that is a wrong without redress’—This she believes is that of Men alone, Elves escaping the injustice.
Andreth then adds to the bitterness of the second by bringing forward the inescapability of death. The Elves by craft, skill, strength, and might can avoid it, but it takes men, regardless of their vices or virtues, and cannot be escaped.

Andreth seems to have been affected by the arrogance of the Eldar, but she puts this prejudice aside in the quest for a true answer.
Does this make her more sympathetic or wise in your eyes?

Finrod is trying to distill one answer from Andreth’s words.
(For those who have the book) How successful do you think he was at summarisation?

Andreth’s final grievance seems to be the root of her bitterness--she is powerless to halt death.
Do you agree with me?


Finrod then asks if the inescapable nature of death has cause Men’s hopelessness. Andreth replies that, in the absence of certainty, fear has gripped them. Of ‘Hope’, even the Wise among Men seldom speak. She further softens, and asks if Finrod will yet speak of it. Finrod agrees, and begins to outline what he perceives to be true of death.
She believes death can be ultimately avoided by the Elves, but he does not think it so. The End may come sooner for Men than Elves, but still it comes. The Eldar believe that they are bound hröa and feä (roughly, body and spirit) to Arda, and that at the End of Arda, there is no assurance for Elves that they have purpose beyond the End. Their death may be further delayed, but just as certain, and they lack even the vague Hope that Men have.

Finrod seems to betray a cause for hopelessness in the hearts of Elves.
Could this explain the sober tendencies in their manner?

The Elves are not inclined to be more joyful than Men in life, but less.
Do you think this attitude is a widespread despair, The Grief of the Elves?

Elves lack even a hint of a revelation of their fate, even though they lived in Valinor, contrasting Men who never lived there, but heard from Eru directly.
What do you think of this dispersion, or lack thereof, of Hope?

Andreth seems surprised by this, yet she evinces a nagging envy of the longer span of days. Finrod then asks if a long-forseen death is truly better than one that comes sooner. He then asks if he understands correctly, that Men believe that their quick deaths were outside of the original plan. He states that the truth of this matter is still in dispute, but that Men do believe that Morgoth has changed their fate. That Morgoth has acted especially to shorten their lives, and mortality was not a byproduct, but his conscious aim. He then asks for confirmation of the accuracy of his summary, which Andreth gives.

What do you think is better, a long-awaited death, or an unexpected demise?
Finrod is beginning to shed light on the heart of the matter. Confirming what was suspicion earlier. Concrete ideas are taking shape, and we are preparing to get into deeper waters.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:32am

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Finrod, receiving the confirmation of his suppositions, then says that if true—that Morgoth has changed the fate of a whole race (An idea unthought-of by Elves, who believed in his eventual defeat.) —then they have much to fear, and all their labour is in vain. He then asks what hope anyone has if Morgoth can do something contra-Eru.

The Elves always had hope in their ability to defeat Morgoth.
We know that it did not happen that way, but do you think that this optimism is strange in light of their lack of hope for an eternal home?

The Elves had seen Morgoth in his power, and were still hopeful, but the Men who had only rumor of his power, were cowed.
How do you think these circumstances played out upon the different peoples, one race, but with different temperaments and longevity?

Andreth then declares that in an intellectual conception, Elves may have a stoical attitude, but if they knew, really knew, death, they would be as downcast as Men. She then affirms that Morgoth is, undoubtedly, the Lord of the World, and that all opposition is folly, or at best unavailing.
Andreth, in this declamation, presumes to know more of the world than the Elves. She thinks that she knows that their resistance is hopeless.
Is this pride on her part, or an expression of her despair?

Finrod then issues a stern caution. Eru is supreme, and Manwë has been given the vice-regency of Arda. Morgoth may have caused the despair and loathing of life and death, but Finrod is doubtful of Morgoth’s power to cause such great harm by making the deathless subject to death, leaving nothing but a bitter memory to fill the emptiness. He denies Morgoth that extent of power, therefore he called all vain if it were as Men say, that they had been denied immortality by Morgoth. Eru alone could do this, he says.
Here, Finrod takes a stand. Up to now, all has been speculation, but he makes factual statement here. Men are wrong, Morgoth cannot have initiated death.
What do you think of this bold assertion? Has he been patronising her all along? Did her attribution to Morgoth of such a title of Lord of the World, finally set him off?

He continues his reproof by asking what Men had done then, assuming that Eru is the only being capable of making Men mortal, to anger Eru. He goes on to ask for proofs of their contention that Morgoth was the source of their mortality.
Finrod seems a little harsh, but I think that he is only trying to challenge Andreth's views to test their validity. I detect no malice, but what do you see here?

My opinion is that he is not looking to gain an answer, so much as to get Andreth to see her statements objectively. I am compelled by Finrod's argument' namely: Morgoth does not have the strength to condemn immortals to death.
What about you?

Andreth refuses to speak of the ancient traditions that have shaped her opinion, but she does reveal the plurality of thoughts on the subject and that days of longer life are remembered. Finrod is puzzled by the lack of proof, and asks if there is any forbidden knowledge that recounts the days of Men's immortality. Andreth cannot recall any, but supposes that among the people of Adanel there might be some.
This unwillingness to speak of such matters to an Elf, how do you think it plays into the tale? Pride, ignorance, or something else? Does this refusal incline you to side more with Finrod? Was this the intent? Is the absence of grounding to Andreth's side, a mere lack of work, something that Tolkien had not gotten to writing, or was it meant to be ambiguous?

Andreth falls silent, and Finrod challenges the idea of exclusivity of truth concerning Men's original state. He invokes the Valar, and asks if they do not have better position to know the truth with certainty. Andreth replies in scorn, asking if the Valar ever cared for Men. Finrod asks again for grounding of her claims. He has had firsthand experience of them, and cautions her to not speak so quickly and harshly of things she has no experience of. He then lists several possible explanations of the perceived neglect of Men by the Valar: Men's actions, or the freedom of Men to master their own fate. He dwells on the last, and would seem to consider it the correct answer. He gives a final caution, then moves on to other matters.
Andreth seems to become a raving voice to be hushed by the noble King, not quite the Wise woman.
How, do you see her development so far? Does Finrod seem a little too perfect to you?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:33am

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Finrod then asks after the 'first state' of Men. He wishes to know if they were similar to the Elves. Andreth correctly reminds him that the lore took no account of Elves, and that the only considerations present were of 'dying' and 'not-dying'. Nothing similar to the proposed fate of the Elves, had even been dreamed of, and Finrod’s disclosure was a revelation to Andreth. Finrod confesses that he disbelieved the idea that Men were immortal, thinking it proud and foolish, mere envying of the Elder. He still maintains a willingness to learn, and asks if Men had fallen from immortality before, or after encountering the Elves. He also asks if they did not gain some of their philosophical ideas from their interactions with them.
Finrod appears to move back into a listening position rather than a teaching one.
A return to a student’s place of observation?
He seems to be attempting to regain some of Andreth's trust, hence his honest disclosure of opinion, but he also asks, indirectly, if Men could be mistaken, having taken somewhat of the Elves philosophy, concerning mortality.
What do you think of this confession of Finrod?

Andreth is unsure of the exact order of events-- mortal before or after meeting the Elves, but she is certain that the lore concerning their immortality preceded the meeting of the two kindreds. She further clarifies that she meant that Men were meant to live forever, 'born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end'. Finrod is puzzled and asks if the Wise among Men have ever considered such a fate strange. Andreth says no, and further adds that the prevailing opinion holds immortality to be the norm for all living things.
Andreth is sure of herself, Men were immortal, but she is unsure of the time. That fact is indisputable to her. Her clarification of the ideal state of Men, recalls an Edenic system to me, further supported by the idea that nothing was to die.
What do you think?
Does Finrod's incredulity serve to illustrate the gulf between kindreds, outlining the fundamental differences in thought patterns?

Finrod says that in that notion of non-death for all, the Elves disagree with Men. He explains the reasons for their position more fully. If Men were physically immortal and not bound to Arda as the Elves, how then would their bodies, made of terrestrial material and sustained by matter of the same origin, be able to exist and subsist both in and out of it? In this claim, it is posited by Men, though perhaps unconsciously, that their bodies and spirits were in disharmony from the beginning, being unbound to Arda, yet doomed to life in it without death. This implies a spirit striving to be free, held by a body that is deathless. Elves believe that the body and spirit must exist in harmony, and is fundamental to the original design for the Mirröanwi, ‘the Children of Eru’. Andreth then replies and concedes the first point--that an immortal body supported by what is held to be temporal, is difficult, but asserts that the Wise have their own answer. The second, she admits that it was never thought of. Finrod remarks that counsel of others may bring wisdom.
Now we really get a philosophical idea to work on.
What are your thoughts on this topic of debate, in context? What do you think of this idea, and its effectiveness in the Legendarium?
Is Andreth's reticence in answer to the first matter annoying? Is it intentionally leaving answers open, or something that was not written yet?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:33am

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Finrod moves on to continue his thoughts. From the observation of the Elves, they have become certain of a strange thing. The fëar (plural of fëa) of Men are not the same as that of the Elves, though they are similar. He likens the Elder to the residents of a land, who love it for their own. It is precious to them. Men, he likens to travelers, sojourning in the land. They love it too, because they are unused to such sights, and have not had the time to become accustomed to them. Andreth then asks if they are similar to guests, and Finrod replies that they do call Men by such a name. Andreth then asks where else they, the travelers have been. Finrod then asks Andreth to tell him, for as residents, they know nothing of other lands. He also expounds an idea, that Men love things in Arda comparatively. They compare the new with the old, and make judgment. Even before they have learned, they seem to carry this memory. Finrod wonders where they could have gained this memory.
Previously Finrod and Andreth sought to explain the similarities of Men and Elves, but now Finrod explains a perceived difference in fundamental nature. He also wonders of what Men seem to carry into the world, and carry out with their deaths.
What do you think of his ideas of Men, Elves and their differences?

Andreth is bewildered by these new ideas, but they have touched her heart, and she feels that there is truth in them. She repeats a contemporary proverb: ‘too often seen, is seen no longer’. She claims that Men's hearts are restless, as travelers might be, and that it is believed that Elves do not have this restless spirit, and do not tire of the world. Thus they are more fit to be residents. She asks Finrod if this longing for more in the heart of Men, was a corruption of their nature, or originally there. Finrod thinks that the discontent might have been exacerbated by evil, but not instilled by it.
Andreth feels an illogical impulse to accept Finrod's words.
Is this a contradiction of what she has previously said about no hope?

They seem to agree that Men are restless and yearn for more.
Do you think this ambition readied them to supplant the Elves, as was planned?

Finrod continues, he asks if Andreth cannot see how incompatible a yearning spirit and immortal body would be. He compares death to the severing of mind and body, and deathlessness to their eternal union. He then proposes that such a spirit would need to separate itself of the body as some point, tiring of Arda, and longing to return to the place from which it came. It would be a home-going, and natural, though the body might live much longer yet.
Here comes the idea of a willing release of a spirit by the body, comparable to Aragorn's death. He thinks this the natural end of Men, yet not an end.
Would the instance of Aragorn support this, or was he an exception?
Is Finrod trying to reconcile his views of mortal Men, with Andreth's immortal Men, and making a muddle?

Andreth rejects this explanation, on the grounds that it devalues the body, making it less important at best, and a bondage and chain to the spirit, at worst. She holds that the affinity of fëa and hröa (roughly, mind and body) is essential to man's harmony of being. Their separation is thus, disaster to both, bereaved of its companion. Finrod is amazed; he would then suppose that a restless spirit, as has been conceded, in natural death, would take its body with it, if they are such closely affiliated. In so doing, the bodies, part of Arda itself, would become free of any taint of evil, spoiling the malice of Morgoth. If this were the original case, and now impossible, Finrod is sorry for Men, and senses that they have lost much in their fall.
Andreth proposes an alternative answer to Finrod's puzzle of the harmony of being. She asserts that the harmony would be broken by their separation, not fulfilled.
What do you think? Has she forgotten the point of Men’s free restless spirit in Arda?

Finrod emends her solution by suggestion a translation of the whole being of Man, if the unity is to be maintained.
Is this advancement in the right direction, or more compromise to support Andreth's claims?

He then sympathises with Men if they have fallen so low as to not escape evil.
Does this contradict his earlier exhortation that Morgoth could not have changed their fate?

Finrod then asks if the comparison that Men seem to draw with the things they see, is possibly the original intent of Arda, set in their hearts by Eru. Andreth cannot say, and despairs of finding then answer in a broken world. She then reveals that Men think little of the world that is, and more of the world that was to be. Finrod's heart is now stirred by this news, and he supposes that Men were to heal the evil of the world and to surpass the vision of Arda's original form, that is why they have such unrest and trouble little with the world as it is. He is uncertain, as are the Valar, of what is intended for the end, and speculates that it was meant to be a mystery to all alike. He speculates that the end might be a surprising joy, and that is why Men, Elves, and Valar do not know it.
Finrod speculates on what might have been, and then seems to turn and claim that if might yet be to come.
What do you think of his optimism? What do you think of its chances of being true?
If true, do you think it wrong of Eru to plan it this way?

Andreth then asks what this final surprise might be. Finrod replies that he really had been thinking of his own people's end. As they discussed death as a division of what is meant to be united, he despaired of the final end of Elves, being destroyed with Arda. In his despair, hope came, hope that in a rejuvenated Arda, the Elves might be restored, taking their bodies and spirits from Arda, to the new world-- a world of bliss, and where they would be grateful to Men, their deliverers. There Men would be the residents, and Elves the visitors, reminded of the old Arda in the similarity of the new.
What do you think of this idea? Do you think Elves are bound to die with Arda?
What do you think of this proposed inversion of roles?
Does it seem unfair to Men, sent to do the delivering without remembrance of home, while the Elves have the best of both worlds (Literally!)?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:33am

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Andreth then weeps asking if it could be true, when so much evil has befallen Men. They have no such hope, all looks dark. Could it still come true? Finrod then elaborates on the meaning of Hope. There is one than Men call hope, Amdir. But another is known to the Elves, deeper and less deceiving, Estel. Estel comes from Eru, and is a part of Men and Elves, never to be defeated by circumstances. Eru will have his will, he argues, and no one can take it away. He asks if Men cannot hold on to that hope.
Here we come to the crux of the matter, and coincidentally, the reason we chosen to discuss this chapter.
(If you have read the essay), Does it seem clearer in context, than when we discussed it earlier? Do you agree with the Omnipotent portrait of Eru?
How would we term Estel and Amdir today?

Andreth asks if Estel was not defeated when men were corrupted. ‘Does not Morgoth rule the world?’ she asks. Finrod is angry at the idea of Morgoth's triumph, but Andreth is not as convinced of Eru's superiority. She asks if the defeat of their hope for complete healing in the West, the reason their ancestors left the Shadow, proves that Estel is just an irrational Amdir. She compares it to a dream that is dispelled in waking.
Andreth wants to believe, but she can't.
Is this because of all the lore she has? Is the confusion of the rumors of Men clouding her mind?
Or is Finrod then the voice of the undefeatable optimist, and happy and cheerful for no reason?
Who do you think we are supposed to believe? Who are you more drawn to?

Finrod answers Andreth's claim of false dreams, with a challenge. Estel is preserved in a secret hope, dreams as Andreth said, but her comparison of hope to dreams, seeks to demean them. By following her logic, the belief actually held, would be the waking of the dream. Thus is a fallacy, as it devalues the hope, to make the belief comparatively better. Finrod then asks what real hope they had in coming west. If they had none, as Andreth claims they have now, what motivated them to leave the Shadow?
This is a nice logical dilemma here, what do you think of it? It illustrates fallacious reasoning quite well.
Andreth is undoubtedly caught in an error here.
What do you think of the proved error? Does it weaken her in your eyes?

Andreth reveals uncertainty of the exact reason of their hope. She then reveals her doubts. What happens to those who have died already, and what of those who still live when the new hope comes to completion? How could it even come? She then names another group that is the only to offer hope of this: those of the Old Hope.
This reads to me like the questions that I Thessalonians 4 answers for Christians.
Is it intentionally similar?

Why haven't we heard of this new group before? They seem to think they have the answers. Why wouldn't Andreth bring them up sooner? Was it because she was so dismissive of them?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:34am

Post #9 of 117 (1433 views)
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Finrod then asks after this group—Those of the Old Hope—, who seem to have all the answers. Andreth reveals that there is a small group whose numbers are increasing, who believe that there is hope in defiance of Morgoth. She then says that she thinks it not a good reason to believe them, for if their defiance fails, they will be more downcast than at the beginning. The germ of their hope, however, was not rooted in Men or Elves, she says. Finrod asks what it was. Andreth says that they believe that Eru, himself, will enter Arda, and that he will redress all wrongs. She also adds, sceptically, that this rumor has, or is purported to have, come down from the earliest days, a hope from the beginning.
What do you think of this vision of hope that has so suddenly broken into the picture?
It seems very radical. Even compared with all else. It seems like an old fashion cure-all for the woes of Middle-Earth. Does it seem as far-fetched and too perfect to you, as it might to Andreth?
This incarnation of the divine, does it smack of Christianity?
The difference would be in the first incarnate form of the Christian deity, being humble, and the Arda-ian being powerful and conquering?
Does it relate to the Ending proposed by the book of Revelations?
We know Tolkien did not want a 1 to 1 transliteration of Christianity to Arda. Does it show that difficulty here?

Finrod detect her disbelief, and calls her on it. She admits her scepticism, and cites the other lore and the plain facts of her people. They do not know much of Eru, or who he is. Many men think that Morgoth and Manwë are the heads of the dualist forces of good and evil. The thoughts of Men, in the main, take no account of Eru. They cannot fathom a deity above Morgoth, Ulmo, Varda, and the others. Indeed, many count Eru among the Valar, as their chief, but still an equal being. Even if he were the acknowledged lord of the Valar, he does not seem to take interest in the governance of Arda, leaving the Valar and Morgoth to struggle together. She then gives her opinion on that of the Elves. They contend, she says, that he is still greater than the Valar, having no equal. He alone created the world, and he exists outside of it. She asks if this is not an accurate summary of the Eldar’s thoughts.
This stream of questions seems to brand Andreth as a sceptic. Many of these questions can be taken as analogues for our own world. We know Tolkien hated allegory, but these questions parallel many of our own.
Was it intentional?
Do these questions have such profundity, that their inclusion adds more weight to the mythos than self-confessed, despise of allegory?
How does the inclusion of, what seems to me, an obvious parallel, strike you?
What do you think of the questions and , some false, opinions born in Mens’ hearts during the days of Shadow, concerning Eru, and the substitution of the present head, Manwë, for the real head, Eru?

Finrod confirms Andreth’s summary, and says that the Valar says the same but add the caveat that Morgoth thinks he is greater. Sensing Andreth’s confusion, he attempts to add credence to his view, by asking who she thinks would be more reliable? The Valar, who humble themselves under Eru, or Morgoth, who seek self-aggrandisement?
How does this indirect proof influence your thoughts? Do you think it compelling, or otherwise?

Andreth seems to accept it, if only as a possibility, but she still had doubts. How can Eru, who is immeasurably greater than Arda, enter it? How can a greater thing enter into a lesser? Finrod perceives the difficulty, but has an answer, similar to that he gave on Andreth’s analogy to hope as a mere dream. There is a difference between ‘in-dwelling’ and ‘out-living’, he says. Andreth tries to grasp this and says, that since the World came from Eru, it is part of himself, thus he may yet be in the foundations. She affirms that what those of the Old Hope maintain is something different, his whole essence entering Arda. She asks if this would not destroy it.
What do you think of this abstract idea?

I cannot get any further clarification on the difference of ‘in-dwelling’ and ‘out-living’.
What are your thoughts on them?

Finrod is unable to answer. It is beyond him, but he asks if Andreth is possibly the connotations of the words ‘greater’ and ‘lesser’ are misleading. Eru is not a finite being, he claims, and cannot be understood by the created beings. He thinks that as a measureless being, he could still, in his power, enter Arda and defeat Morgoth, and yet remain outside, as master of all, free from constraint of the world. He can see no other way to defeat Morgoth, finally. He supposes that even if Morgoth were thrust from the world, his evil would remain to fester. Thus the corruption would stay, though its source be removed. The world thus corrupted, would not be able to furnish a final cure for his malice. He supposes it must then come from a pure place, beyond Arda.
More abstraction!! What do you think of it?

This seems to anticipate the case of Middle-Earth, post-Morgoth, pretty well. Does it take into account Sauron?
Gandalf strayed out of Arda, and was sent back, was he part of the hope, whose source is beyond Arda?
Is the kind of divine grace, of the type given to Frodo and Sam, the real deciding factor, the real independent hope? Or is this outside help still to come nearer the End?

Andreth then asks if Finrod holds these beliefs, seeing he has so eloquently delineated them. He is still uncertain, and asks for time to consider them more fully. He muses that perhaps the wisdom of Men was meant to help the Eldar, and that of the Eldar to hearten Men, even as they have stirred each other’s hearts.
A nice sentiment. How much do you think is true? Does the heart want to overwhelm the head?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:34am

Post #10 of 117 (1426 views)
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Then the topic returns to the differences of Men and Elves, but on a more poignant note. They discuss it briefly, and Andreth weeps, thinking of the severance of fates. Finrod thinks it perilous to gainsay and defy the fate of Men or Elves, set by Eru. He asks if there has been no comfort in the pondering of truth they have had together, and expresses the opinion that it has not comforted Andreth to think of the good in the fates of Men and Elves, if they be separate. Andreth denies that she wanted or sought any comfort in their conversation. Finrod, disbelieving her I think, brings up the personal pain of Andreth: She loves his brother Aegnor, but their fates are seemingly irreparably sundered, forever.
This revelation, how does it impact your perception of the whole? Does it Make Andreth more pitiable? (Which kind? Proud, or akin to love? See later notes) Does it weaken her?
What of Finrod? Has the whole conversation been aimed to get here? Was he come, not only to honor the dead chieftain, but to comfort Andreth? Was he come to try to sever the, seemingly, unhealthy tie between her and his brother? Does Aegnor know that Finrod is there, or that he wanted to talk to Andreth?
What impact does this have on the story of Beren and Luthien, Aragorn and Arwen, Elrond and Elros, Tuor, Elwing and Earendil? Was this an earlier conception, where it was impossible to choose a mortal/immortal fate? Was there a special catalyst in the other cases? Luthien’s Maiar blood? Elrond and Elros’ human blood? Aragorn’s Elvish blood? Arwen’s ¾ Elven status? Divine prerogative? Had Eleves and Men no proved themselves worthy yet?
So much to consider!!!

Finrod uses an endearing term, transliterated ‘thou’, and Andreth takes offence because it was Aegnor’s form of address to her. Finrod asks if the root of her bitterness is not a personal grievance with fate. He wishes to comfort her, but she seems to see it as patronisation. He can only remind her of their previous words of hope. Andreth rails against fate and questions the cruelty of it. Why should her love of Aegnor be allowed, or possible, if it would only end in pain and misery? She rejects the assumption that the good she has spoken of, and the hope they have discussed, is her own. She supposes that even if it were true, she would be bereft of her love. There is a gulf between Men and Elves, one which she cannot see her way to cross.
Andreth seems to be more impassioned than earlier debate has revealed, and for good reason.
Here we get to a touching, personal account. How does it affect the narrative?
Do you agree with Andreth or Finrod?
What do you see as true of this portion? Is fate cruel, or their love unnatural?

Why might have Finrod have used an endearing term, was it intentional, or more subtle? Similar to calling someone ‘Honey’, ‘Dear’, ‘Sweetie’, or another term of affection.

Finrod reminds her that the gulf was from the beginning, and not of the Eldar’s making. He says that it also grieves the Elves. So much of what they love is fleeting. He calls them both ‘pitiful’, and goes on to explain the difference:
There is pity that recognises the kinship of the two peoples--near to love.
The other is in perception of their differences--that is nearer pride.
He points out that he offers her the former, and seeks to commiserate with her, not to devalue her heartache.
What do you think of this distinction? I think it is quite nice! How would the difference be illustrated in our vernacular?
Does this dispel ideas of arrogance on Finrod’s part? Does it prove that he came to aid Andreth, rather than to fob her off?

Andreth treates any offer of pity with scorn. She recounts her youthful love, and points out that her youth has past, while Aegnor’s is fresh. She asks if candle’s pity the moths they kill. Finrod replies in kind, and asks of the moths, who are hurt, pity the source of their harm when it is snuffed out by the wind.
Andreth’s pride is a constant theme. Is it indicative of Men?
Finrod inverts her analogy, but how well do you think it works? Do the moths have more grief, cognisant of death’s source, where candles may have no clue from where their death comes? Does it illustrate the contrast of a forseen death vs. the long awaited death?

Finrod affirms his brother’s love of Andreth, and reveals that his love was so great, that he will not marry any other, though he be alone forever. Finrod has a presentiment of evil to come in his brother’s life, yet he sees nothing but long life for Andreth. She then asks why Aegnor does not forsake all, and spend what time she has, married and together. Finrod reveals that among the Eldar there is a custom, never to wed or have children in times of war. His heart would be with her, but his duty, and a premonition that the Siege of Angband will not last, holds him to his duty. Andreth says that she would have sacrificed everything to be with Aegnor, but Finrod muses that if they were both to forsake their own duties to their kindreds, the days gained would not be glad, but sorrowful and stolen, such actions they judge foolish not brave.
Here we have confirmation of love, yet duty interferes. It is a fairly common motif, and in some, (I’d venture to say most), stories breaking a rule for love is lauded.
Why not here? Why is duty so important to Tolkien? It reminds me of Faramir, and his commitment to duty. Does it compare to his life, when he was forbidden to see Edith? It was happy for Tolkien, but a sad end for this ME couple. What do you think?
The custom among the Eldar concerning children, marriage, and war is well attested in another essay, Laws and Customs among the Eldar.
Was it conceived for this narrative, or already in place?
In forsaking their peoples, what would have happened to Aegnor once Andreth died? Had she thought of this, or was she being selfish?

Finrod then states that any marriage across the Kindreds would be made only in necessity. It might be glad for a while, but grief would be the end. They then consider the natural end of such union. Andreth says that she would have left him rather than be a burden, but Finrod says that even if she had tried to do so, Aegnor’s love would have kept him by her side. He would change his love for pity, and she would loathe it.
Does this grim ending sound plausible? In the absence of contrary truth, it might well be!
How different than then End of the others who followed Luthien’s path!
The proposed end would seem plausible to me. In the absence of any other ties, Aegnor would only have Andreth as his object of fealty. Andreth would be covered in grief, and swamped by guilt and pity, the very thing she seems to hate most!

Finrod says that beauty is kept in memory by the Elves, his brother will remember Andreth as she was—beautiful, happy, and fair. It will always endure with him. Andreth asks what she may have. In an uncertain fate, she may not have anything to remember of Aegnor. It would be soured even, if recalled, when she remembers his refusal to return.
What do you think of Finrod’s ideal? It may work for Elves, who will reunite, but for Men?
It seems to propose a suicide of Men to prevent decay. I have always been puzzled, and slightly disturbed by Aragorn’s willful death. Could it be an exceptional thing only meant for the cross-kindred marriages?
How accurate is Andreth here? Is she the pessimist, and Finrod the optimist?

Finrod admits that he has no words to comfort her in this, but he asks if she wishes they never met. He then moves to go, and exhort her to at least to not think herself spurned by his brother.
Is this the inexhorable, ‘Better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all!’, scenario?
Finrod seems to take the former stance, ridiculing the last part of the colloquialism.
Andreth seems to understand and has no reply to this, directly.
We do not know her thoughts, but what do you think they were at this point?

Finrod rises to leave, and Andreth asks where he goes. ‘North’, he answers, ‘to the siege and defences, to hold back evil while they may’. Andreth asks if he will see his brother, and carry a message, asking him to not be reckless. He agrees, but is doubtful of the effect they will have. He states that Aegnor is a warrior, and that his arm deals hurt to the Enemy that she perceives deprived her of life and love. He ends with a musing that Men are not destined to remain in Arda, they will go beyond, and to perhaps find truth and light. He asks Andreth to wait there for Aegnor, and after a pause, himself.
Wow! What a topic! There really is no answer given in this context, and it leaves us questioning fate.
The message of Andreth seems typical of a lover to a soldier. Do you think JRR saw many of these notes?
Finrod seems to try to comfort Andreth in her own mindset, by observing that Aegnor will avenge her in part. Does it really help to think that vengeance has been done?
We are unsure of his mind, or Andreth’s concerning the fates of Men and Elves. I think that a later writing would be needed to express it, giving them time to ponder what they had heard, and sort out their thoughts. Finrod seems to take the optimistic turn, in the face of all danger and the presentiment of defeat. His final words are haunting.
‘Await us there,{beyond Arda}my brother—and me.’
He seems to offer hope, without basis, Estel. The whole discussion has centred around it. ‘What hope do Men and Elves have?’
His final words seem to affirm the love of Aegnor, but the last few speak to me the most. ‘–and me
Why him? Has he come to see the thing that Aegnor loves in Andreth? Has he come to love her, if ever so slightly? Or does he merely wish to continue this dialogue in knowledge of the truth and light, to be found outside of Arda? Is it a mix of the two?

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 2:35am

Post #11 of 117 (1453 views)
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There is a final commentary by JRR himself, which I think merits attention. It is just about as long as the rest of the text, so I will only pick out a few highlights.
He wanted this essay to be the last appended item in the published Silmarillion.
What do you think about that? Why not the Dagor Dagorlad as was proposed as the ending elsewhere?

He says that this is not a cogent attempt to address the issue of mortality. It is an expression of what might have happened when two different mindsets in Middle-Earth collided in debate. Finrod seeks to understand man’s purpose in the ‘Oienkarmë Eruo’ (The One’s perpetual production), which might be rendered by “God’s management of the Drama”.
So this is not a grounding in Arda-ian philosophy, more of an exploration of the minds of those involved. Was it mainly a narrative then?

We get a summary of Finrod's beliefs, as they stood at the beginning of the Debate.
1. There exist Eru, the one creator of Each, and he is separate from it.
2. On earth, there are creatures,incarnate, and possessing a hröa and fëa (roughly equivalent, but not exactly, to a body and soul)
3. Hröar and fëar are totally distinct in form, dwelling on different planes. The fëa is free and totally indestructible and unable to be absorbed into another. The hröa is able to be destroyed, but was designed to house and exist in harmony with
4. Separation of fëa and hröa is unnatural, and came about by the marring of Arda.
5. Elvish immortality is bound to Arda, and is bound to it. It is not eternal, but rather derives itself from the existence of Arda. Thus the Elvish fëa is unable to exist outside of, or escape from Arda.
6. Thus reincarnation for Elves is possible, via the Valar, as allowed by Eru to compensate for the unnatural separation. They (the Valar) have the power to regulate the waiting period, eligibility, and conditions of this rebirth.
7. Since Men die without accident, their fear must have a different relation to time. It was believed that the fëa of Men were independent of time and Arda, never returning, but truly immortal.
Finrod remains unconvinced that men would have been originally intended to live in Arda forever, then, he argued, they would be no different from the Elves. He thinks that leaving Arda would be natural to them. The fear of their departure is the corruption, not the article of death, itself.
Seeing the severance of hröa and fëa as unnatural , yet the departure of Men from Arda is, he came to this conclusion: The fëa would take the hröa into a new state, beyond Time and Arda.

We seem to get the intent of the passage in these words:
' Actually, though it deals with such things as death and the relations of Elves and Men to Time and Arda, its real purpose is dramatic: to exhibit the generosity of Finrod's mind, his love an pity for Andreth, and the tragic situations that must arise in the meetings of Elves and Men...'

A note on fading:
'...when the process (already glimpsed by Finrod) called "waning" or "fading" had become more effective,...They eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hröar, but only in the memory of the fëa if its bodily form'
In the light of DOS and the scene with Thranduil’s wound, could this offer an explanation of what Thorin saw? Thranduil had become so detached from ME that he can manipulate his mentally projected appearance? If true, would this come at a cost of extreme ennui and dissatisfaction with the world?

A note on Andreth's reticence:
' It is probable that Andreth was actually unwilling to say more. Partly by a kind of loyalty that restrained Men... ; partly because she felt unable to make up her own mind... Longer recensions of the Athrabeth...,make her give, under pressure, a more precise answer. Some are very brief, some longer. All agree...the cause of the disaster [is] the acceptance by Men of Melkor as King (or King and God).'
In one account, Andreth gives out the tale of Adanel, which is similar to the Númenórean tradition of Sauron's involvement in the Downfall. These longer accounts were also kept by those scribes in Númenor. The similarities are striking, but do not prove or disprove the allegation of conflated history of Melkor and Sauron.

A problem:
Tolkien was considering the advisability of a 'Fall' legend. He wondered if it was too similar, perhaps inevitably so, to the Christian system.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 29 2013, 3:08am

Post #12 of 117 (1419 views)
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This all looks most wondrous Rem! (rubs hands) [In reply to] Can't Post


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Thank you so much for putting this discussion together! It is a lot to discuss, but we have all the time we need to take now that you have it all posted for us! Cool All your work and thought is most appreciated!
Well, let's begin...Wink

In light of this, would you consider it 'canon'? A title was present only in the MS copy, 'Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men', later sub-titled 'The Converse of Finrod and Andreth'. It was originally prefaced by a general essay on the natural philosophy of Arda. The preface was later removed and expanded, forming its own essay entitled 'Aman'. There is contextual basis to believe that the ‘Athrabeth’ was completed after another oft referenced essay, 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar'. I was thinking about this last week, in my re-reading of the introduction. I think since the manuscript itself was titled in such detail, he clearly had intent (which is consistent with the piece) and a place for it in ME. So I would consider it to be canon...would its ultimate place have been in the Sil, I wonder? Or was it meant to stand alone? If it was slotted for the Sil, I wonder if it would have changed the entire tone: from distant I the published collection, this is the exact opposite: intimate, character driven and rich in dialogue.

Do you think this split indicates that the Athrabeth is more philosophical, historical, or narrative? Why the split? Did the subject simply get too long to be contained in one essay? Do you think it was intended to get so philosophical? I wonder if it got more deeply into the philosophy than first intended, and that was why the Aman section was detached and expanded under its own title? Additionally as well all note the prevalence of the Christian influence in some of the overtones ion this piece, different maybe and closer to JRRT's bedrock than in the more subtle LOTR and many Sil references?


The Eldar learned from Men, that they (Men) believed that their bodies(hröar) were not naturally short lived, but rather corrupted, whether by Melkor's especial meddling, or a general effect of 'Arda Marred'. Men linked this marring directly to their diminished lifespan. Elves believed that if the mortality of Men had come by interference (direct or indirect) of Melkor, then it boded ill for all who opposed him, as it testified of a great and potent capacity for evil. If so, they wondered what men could have been like before their waning. Many Elves were not so inclined, believing rather, that Men were naturally short-lived.
So here are the two general views held by two different groups.
Which appeals/appealed to you first? The appeal here for me comes not so much in comparing views but loving the detail that the Firstborn do not automatically know all about Men and their fates and destinies from the first. It really speaks of a young world doesn't it?


The two characters in the dialogue are now introduced:
Finrod: Wisest of the Exiles, and more concerned with abstraction and philosophy than technical matters. He was an ardent Anthrophile,(a student of Mankind) and earned the name 'Friend of Man'.

A Noldorin (Knowledgeable Elves renowned for their skill in handiwork) who cares less for crafts, and more for philosophy? Does this juxtaposition strike you? Its more insight I think into Finrod as The Faithful, and of the open and philosophical mind, as one of the Elves chosen by Ulmo to serve such a critical role in the salvation of Arda. So he does stand out here, both in his deep thoughts and his concern with Men - and not just concern in the intellectual sense, but I get the feeling that Finrod truly cares about these people, and also wants to find out and understand about them and their history, if nothing else to give them some sort of peace.


Andreth: A wise woman of the House of Bëor, sister of Bregor, father of Barahir, father of Beren. So this makes her the great-aunt of Beren. She was accounted wise, and well-versed in the histories and lore of Men. For her accomplishments the Eldar called her 'Wise-Heart'. Her familiarity extended, not only to the lore of her people, the people of Bëor, but also her kinswoman, Adanel's, namely the House of Marach, ruled by Hador.
Andreth is tied to many of the prominent Men of the Elder Days.
What effect might this, almost noble, position have? Perhaps most trusted with lore among Men? Great aunt of Beren, whom Finrod would save in the dungeon's of Sauron...


It is said that Men were 'loth{sic}' to share their lore or histories, 'even among themselves'. Fear seems to be the motivation of silence, but there is also a fear of forgetting. They keep a close coterie of trusted ones who keep the legends in remembrance.
Would this closeness have hindered, or aided accurate record keeping?
Sadly among mortals it may have hindered it terribly! With few people possessing the lore, one or two untimely deaths can really cause the loss of the information altogether. It reminds me of the process our distant ancestors are thought to have gone through - technologies and skills learned, perfected in a small group, and then lost, only to be reinvented by another group - it would make for quite a puzzle in trying to put the details together as the years continued and the actual events are left further and further behind.


Andreth goes against this trend, sharing information with Finrod.
Why?
From the first, we feel raw emotion from Andreth, and a resentment whose source is not yet clear. Much of the kindness and gentle questions that Finrod puts forth seem to inspire Andreth to speak out more. I think her feelings of loss and despair over her lost and unconsummated love, Finrod's brother Aegnor, is literally tearing at her. So I think so much of her response to Finrod and these questions of mortality are bound m up with Andreth's sense of personal loss. It colors the whole dialogue I think.


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





Mikah
Lorien

Dec 29 2013, 3:26am

Post #13 of 117 (1421 views)
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Oh wow... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is really amazing. I don't even know what to say. Well done Rem, well done. I don't even know where to start. I guess I will just take it piece by piece. It will take some time however!


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 29 2013, 3:45am

Post #14 of 117 (1411 views)
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Arda Marred and Western trips [In reply to] Can't Post


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Finrod seems to be in ignorance here. Perhaps this is their first meeting, or Finrod's first foray into his studies of Men? Maybe he had been studying Men from an Elf-centric view, and has faulty preconceptions? Hmmm...when they speak later of the lost days of her youth, Finrod seems to know all about Andreth, so I do not think this is their first meeting. And it feels to me like he has been aware of the disparity for a long while, as his answers are not just one of singular surprise, but collective 'we' in regretting the brevity of Men's lives. So I think he and maybe other Elves have been considering this question for a long time, but unsure of the facts. It feels like Finrod though is the first maybe to directly ask about it, of Men themselves. Absolutely I think there is elf-centrism implied: the only known standard Finrod has.


Finrod here illuminates the opinion of the Elven majority. He also tries to raise Andreth's estimation of their own opinion of Men, by setting Men apart from birds, beasts, plants, and closer to themselves, the Eldar, but he then asks if their mortality is not part of their nature, indirectly comparing Men to the things from which he had previously tried to set them apart. That is so true! A great point, a mark perhaps of that Elf-centricity!
Does this apparent contradiction in thought, belie his ignorance or an unconsciously held idea of Elven superiority? He expresses a desire to learn though, so that eliminates the possibility of irredeemable pride, in my eyes. Its true - I take it as a mere starting point of his own viewpoint coupled with the novelty of Men, and his natural puzzlement...plus I am not sure if I would use superiority, but maybe a sense of his recognizing a frailty among the Men. It seems to trouble him...so I give him credit there too.



Andreth's use of the word 'lore' would seem to be slightly negative. She doesn't rely upon it totally, knowing that legends and errors have crept in, but in learning of Adanel, she seems to value it. Indeed many of her thoughts seem to be borrowed from Adanel. How do you think that this impacts the integrity of the traditions, and thus her side of the argument? Her beliefs, in contrast to Finrod's, seem to be more tenuous. Finrod has what he considers to be facts, perhaps gleaned from firsthand experience, or in Valinor. Men do not have tangible evidence, yet Andreth seems to be convinced in her own way. What are your thoughts on the two types of confidence expressed? Well it becomes very subjective: one's corn could be another's chaff, as it were. I think it underlines the emotionality of Andreth's state...I feel that what is going on here is that her mind and intellect may be leaning towards an explanation that is cohesive but her emotions of loss and personal grief are always just below the surface. And it seems to making her cling very forcefully to the idea that Men by nature are not short-lived, and have been thus blighted (personalizing her sense of blight?)


Finrod responds that the idea of the waning of Men, due to Melkor's influence, is plausible. Even among the Elves, a lessening is noted. They are not so tall, or resilient as those who came before. He says that the original intent for both peoples, must then be altered somewhat, and the extent and fullness of decay may not be understood for many years. He then postulates that since they are further from the source of decay, Melkor, Men will regain some, if not most, of their intended vitality.

Finrod seems to think that 'Arda Marred', the decay of what was supposed to be, acts more like a localised poison. If one could remove the source, (i.e. Melkor) or get further from it, the world would become better, and return to the way it was meant to be. What's interesting here is how Finrod is using the facts of Westward movement of Men and Andreth's statement earlier about how their passing was swifter in the East to come to the conclusion that Westward expansion - and in his Elf-centric viewpoint, closer to Valinor - would somehow help Men. I think too, that hope of 'removing Melkor' speaks of the Elevn hope too, that if the dark cloud was removed the older days of early bliss could return. Always do the Elves think of the pure past, and wish to return to it and keep it so (like the Ringmaking that would come, later on.) That embalming - with best, purest motives - of Middle-earth.

Andreth seems to make a rather proud and bitter complaint—‘Death was imposed upon us’. She also seems sadly fatalistic about the fate of Men within Arda. How do you feel about these statements? Does it make Andreth more, or less sympathetic? It both frustrates me to some extent, but also makes me feel her anger and pain and bitterness. So overall, yes, more sympathetic, especially when her motivation is revealed. But in this section it can be a little harsh.


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





Mikah
Lorien

Dec 29 2013, 4:22am

Post #15 of 117 (1417 views)
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Morgoth's Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one of my favorite of all ME books. It is certainly the one I use the most when I am searching for reference. If you are a ME fan and do not own it, I agree with Rem it really is a must have. Not just for this piece of writing, but for Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, and Myth's Transformed as well.

I consider this to a more philosophical work, perhaps the most philosophical work of Tolkien. I believe that it was meant to be and that is why he chose these two characters. Particularly Finrod. The Elvish King he considered to be the wisest of the Eldar at that point in time. He could have chosen any two characters in ME to have this conversation, I believe he chose Finrod because he was the one as he states "being more concerned with matters of thought." He is also the Elf who cared most deeply about men and their fates. It is not unreasonable to believe that Finrod would have this type of philosophical conversation. I really can not picture Maedhros, Thingol, or anyone else waxing this philosophical.

I am of the mind to believe that Finrod is probably a little bit more accurate in his philosophy. I do not believe that death was meant to be something so feared as men (at least Andreth) seemed to fear it. In the Sil, death for men was referred to as a "gift" from Illuvatar. This gift Morgoth has corrupted. I wonder as well if all men during this time saw death as something as fearful as Andreth did. They certainly did not act like it, some of the most courageous men in ME are mortal; Hurin, Huor, Turin, Beren, and Aragorn to name a few. These are not people who strike me as fearing death. But it is likely that they are the exception and not the rule. What are your thoughts on this? I also wonder how much Andreth's affection for Finrod's brother Aegnor played into her bitterness of the short life spans of men?

I also believe that Andreth's relationship with Aegnor is what led her to have this discussion with Finrod. She is still obviously perplexed, feeling rejected by Aegnor. Perhaps she was searching for answers? In order to get understanding into a way of thinking, it is reasonable to assume that you are expected to give information. Self-disclosure is usually what creates intimacy. I believe that is why she was willing to have this conversation with Finrod when she may not have been so willing to have it with another.

She is indeed of almost noble position and I believe that this is very important in that this is the reason that she would have affiliation with Finrod, a king, in the first place. These are just my thoughts, I am curious into other's insights.


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 29 2013, 4:22am

Post #16 of 117 (1407 views)
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Comparative sadness [In reply to] Can't Post


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Finrod begins to cast doubt upon Andreth’s views. He thinks that Eru had a good end in mind for Men. He also believes that Melkor is the source of all of the doubt and evil. Do you think that Finrod is right? Was there an ultimate good intended, or was there an intentional mix of good and evil? Melkor gets the credit for all the evil. Is that right? What's interesting here is Finrod's statement that 'death is but the name that we give to something he has tainted, and therefore it sounds evil'. Yet Elves can die, and have died...I suppose thought technically and Elf can die by accident, they see what happens to them as taint as well, considering he names fire and blades? As far as Finrod's idea...it comes back to that debate over whether Eru is the creator of all, including Evil, or whether it is a force external to Eru? My own feeling is that it is bound within the Sing, and thus part of Eru and something which he has foreseen. Choice and free will is all bound within the Song as well, and allows the notes to play out.
Is this Finrod’s chance to be bitter? It is so touching, when he talks about their hunter being slower but never losing the trail. Yet, as he says, 'no one speaks to us of hope.' They know not their own, ultimate fate either, and it may be the total loss of being, such a devastating thought to Elves.


Andreth seems to have been affected by the arrogance of the Eldar, but she puts this prejudice aside in the quest for a true answer.
Does this make her more sympathetic or wise in your eyes? It does...that she can take a moment from her own emotion to turn towards Finrod's questions and issues.

(For those who have the book) How successful do you think he was at summarisation? In delineating the essential difference being the speed of the end: yes, I think he is spot on from their point of view. The further differences of being bound and unbound to Arda may be beyond the scope of the discussion here, between these two, so the ultimate fate is still open to question (as Finrod says about his fate) but Finrod is right: they can, and will, both die, it is simply a matter of the when.

Andreth’s final grievance seems to be the root of her bitterness--she is powerless to halt death.
Do you agree with me? I think it is not just the powerlessness over death, but how that impending death creates the gulf between her and the love she can never have.


Finrod seems to betray a cause for hopelessness in the hearts of Elves. Could this explain the sober tendencies in their manner? Yes it could, that knowledge of the loss of what they are given to love so deeply. And here, when I read hope, I think of how that belongs to us in the Elessar - something neither Finrod nor Andreth can picture at this point. Nor could they fathom, I am sure, that the Hope would be blood of men and Elves together.
The Elves are not inclined to be more joyful than Men in life, but less. Do you think this attitude is a widespread despair, The Grief of the Elves? Yes, it is - their eternal sadness, as he says in Letters, 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden: a grief and an envy to the immortal Elves." And given how great and how intimate their love of Arda is, so proportionally is their grief in contemplating - for ages - its loss and change.

Elves lack even a hint of a revelation of their fate, even though they lived in Valinor, contrasting Men who never lived there, but heard from Eru directly. What do you think of this dispersion, or lack thereof, of Hope? As I wrote above, I hear it as the salvation that neither of them can begin to understand at this junction.

What do you think is better, a long-awaited death, or an unexpected demise? That is such a deep question Rem. I see both in my work; often though in the field I am in we see sudden, unexpected death so often and very commonly among the young. I think there, it is harsher for the survivors as it seems to violate the natural order. Yet in someone older, perhaps who has had a fulfilling life, the quick demise may be a mercy. Must think more on this question...bit I can say from the point of view of the Elves, that 'long, slow defeat' must have been so inevitable and so bittersweet.
.


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 29 2013, 4:28am

Post #17 of 117 (1406 views)
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I agree Mikah [In reply to] Can't Post


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I really can not picture Maedhros, Thingol, or anyone else waxing this philosophical. Absolutely!


I also believe that Andreth's relationship with Aegnor is what led her to have this discussion with Finrod. She is still obviously perplexed, feeling rejected by Aegnor. Perhaps she was searching for answers? In order to get understanding into a way of thinking, it is reasonable to assume that you are expected to give information. Self-disclosure is usually what creates intimacy. I believe that is why she was willing to have this conversation with Finrod when she may not have been so willing to have it with another. I agree 100% here Mikah. Interesting and touching that that search, that sense of seeking a lost love brings Andreth to overcome tradition and prejudice to speak so openly to Finrod about the fate of Men. Love being the common denominator among even those races diverse as Men and Immortal Elves.


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





Mikah
Lorien

Dec 29 2013, 5:20am

Post #18 of 117 (1402 views)
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Tribulation in Middle Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you here Brethil. I do not think that this is their first meeting either. She may have revealed more of herself in this meeting because it was unknown if they would see one another again. It also seems to be a very intimate conversation for people who would have first met. I also agree that Elves had probably considered the question for awhile. When men came into the West a lot of them entered into the service of various Kings, so I imagine that the death of men did directly effect them. Not to mention surprise them. I imagine that they conversed on the subject, at least among one another.

It is hard to tell where exactly Finrod is coming from in his comparison of the nature of men to trees, flowers, and the like. Is there a sub-conscious attitude of elven superiority? Perhaps there is. However it could also be simply confusion on the matter. If looked at it from the point of view of elven superiority then it would seem as though death would be the catalyst for perceived inferiority. It stands to reason that a person who lives for 4,000 years would be more intelligent, skilled, and understanding than one who lives to be 100. After all, they have more time to perfect their craft and talent. But we must not forget that 4,000 years is an awful long time to develop not so positive traits as well; such as anger, resentment, pride, and greed. Although an elf has immeasurable time to go good so to speak, they also have immeasurable time to go bad. It seems to me that Finrod and Andreth have not considered this. After all it was Elves that Mandos called doom on, not mortals. Feanor was corrupted over time, Arda was marred over time. Time is not always our friend.

I believe that at this point of the conversation they are both really looking at death from a negative standpoint. Finrod looking at it from an Elvish perspective (because he is an Elf) and Andreth from a perspective of (perceiving herself) as a scorned woman. As you point out Brethil, Andreth's logic is being confused by her emotion. She not only perceives death as end to life, but the reason that she is sundered from the person that she most loves. Could this be why she is not so emphatic in reasoning as Finrod? Her judgment is a bit tainted. She is harsh for certain, but understandably so...her predicament is an odd one.

The hope of Arda unmarred is a hope shared by both men and elves isn't it? I am not certain that Eru ever intended never ending bliss in Middle Earth. It is only it tribulation that true beauty is revealed. There is no need for valor, courage, honor, and self-sacrifice in a perfect word. It is for this reason that I believe that Eru foresaw this marring. Indeed he did. Hence the union of elves and men. Some of the most courageous deeds in ME were done by men. Hurin defying Morgoth for 25 years, Turin slaying Glaurung, just about everything Aragorn did! I really do not believe that evil could be overcome without men. Do you agree?


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 29 2013, 6:07am

Post #19 of 117 (1393 views)
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Great points here Mikah!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


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It is hard to tell where exactly Finrod is coming from in his comparison of the nature of men to trees, flowers, and the like. Is there a sub-conscious attitude of elven superiority? Perhaps there is. However it could also be simply confusion on the matter. If looked at it from the point of view of elven superiority then it would seem as though death would be the catalyst for perceived inferiority. It stands to reason that a person who lives for 4,000 years would be more intelligent, skilled, and understanding than one who lives to be 100. After all, they have more time to perfect their craft and talent. But we must not forget that 4,000 years is an awful long time to develop not so positive traits as well; such as anger, resentment, pride, and greed. Although an elf has immeasurable time to go good so to speak, they also have immeasurable time to go bad. It seems to me that Finrod and Andreth have not considered this. After all it was Elves that Mandos called doom on, not mortals. Feanor was corrupted over time, Arda was marred over time. Time is not always our friend. Hmmm...you have made me think on this point even more Mikah, and brought me back to an idea that I hold very dear: the stewardship of the Firstborn for the Followers. These things Finrod names are all things the Elves love, and tend, and watch over...is lumping Men with them his unconscious way of expressing that feeling? Excellent point about having ages to develop instead of 100 years. Craft, skill, wisdom, all those would increase with the age. But so would weariness I think! And in a uniformly peaceful Arda, spending 4,000 years among the quiet starlight versus the time of the Nirnaeth and Dagorlad might make you quite a different Elf, if all that obvious marring and hurt takes hold. So true, as JRRT says: the difference between Immortality and Serial Existence is the sense of life and the lack of weariness. Arguably, as we chatted about in Letter #131 discussion, all who live for so long and see so much (especially after the coming of Men) can suffer from that loss of vigour, that sense of loss of interest in life.

I believe that at this point of the conversation they are both really looking at death from a negative standpoint. Finrod looking at it from an Elvish perspective (because he is an Elf) and Andreth from a perspective of (perceiving herself) as a scorned woman. As you point out Brethil, Andreth's logic is being confused by her emotion. She not only perceives death as end to life, but the reason that she is sundered from the person that she most loves. Could this be why she is not so emphatic in reasoning as Finrod? Her judgment is a bit tainted. She is harsh for certain, but understandably so...her predicament is an odd one. Yes the Marring at work. Finrod knows it but still feels it for his own people...because the Unknown is so frightening, even if he attests it comes from Eru in some way. I do think she has reached a stage in life (I think she is about 48?) where she faces the loss of promise of children, and a mate perhaps; certainly she has lost the mate she desired by the gulf that grows between them. A critical loss in her life, a volatile and emotional time. An odd and sad predicament.

The hope of Arda unmarred is a hope shared by both men and elves isn't it? I am not certain that Eru ever intended never ending bliss in Middle Earth. It is only it tribulation that true beauty is revealed. There is no need for valor, courage, honor, and self-sacrifice in a perfect word. It is for this reason that I believe that Eru foresaw this marring. Indeed he did. Hence the union of elves and men. Some of the most courageous deeds in ME were done by men. Hurin defying Morgoth for 25 years, Turin slaying Glaurung, just about everything Aragorn did! I really do not believe that evil could be overcome without men. Do you agree? I cannot agree more Mikah! Wonderfully said! I do believe that is exactly why Men were sung 'outside' of the original Song, and why Eru brings them in with fates unknown and unconnected to much of the larger world - once Melkor began to sing the strife. I think Ulmo, feeling the living pulse of ME, felt that as well, and knows that Men and Elves have one Hope, in unity: the Star and his line. Which is one reason I think he picks Finrod, this open-minded, faithful and brave Elf and sets him safely in Nargothrond. He will later give his life to save the father of hope in Men in Beren and I can't say how much I love Finrod for that. So all out agreement! Men are the loose cannons, the unknown element, in Eru's mind: the ultimate answer to the discord of Melkor. I see so much hope and valuation of us in that message by JRRT. Angelic


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





Mikah
Lorien

Dec 29 2013, 6:10am

Post #20 of 117 (1415 views)
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Elvish despair [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you once again Brethil. I had posted earlier that I believe that Eru foreseen the evil that was to mar Arda. I do not believe that we can really understand joy without sadness, there is no courage without fear, we can not appreciate peace if there has never been strife. I can go on and on. It is only amidst tribulation that true character is made known. Indeed through that strife character and courage are refined. It is funny, but I do not believe bliss can really be achieved without all the pain that comes before it. Without the pain, how would we even recognize it?

It is so touching, when he talks about their hunter being slower but never losing the trail.

It really is touching. One of the few times you see Finrod despair. He goes on to say "that it is not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways lighter burden than one that comes soon." What really struck me about this passage was that after making this statement he quickly went back to the subject of the swift death of men. It is almost like he was not willing to follow the thought to its conclusion. I get the feeling that he may have regretted saying this and changed the subject. Perhaps there was bitterness there and he did not want it revealed?

Brethil and I are of like mind on a lot of our philosophies surrounding this. I do not believe that Andreth's despair comes from dying, but from her mortality separating her from Aegnor. I do not believe it would be nearly such an issue if she had fallen in love with a mortal. I believe that she would have seen it as more of a natural thing as does Finrod, had she not encountered his brother.

In regards to a long-awaited death or unexpected one...well. That is a tough one. I see where Brethil is coming from regarding the unexpected. It is probably more difficult for those who are left behind. I have known people who have died under both circumstances and neither are easy. I have seen so many different attitudes toward it as well. To a person living in much pain and sickness, it can be a blessing, as harsh as that may sound. But it seems to me, death sudden or long delayed is always shocking for me. Regardless of how long I have known of illness I have never been prepared for it in those I love. But I can only speak for myself here.


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 29 2013, 6:45am

Post #21 of 117 (1408 views)
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Relative faith in their futures [In reply to] Can't Post


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The Elves always had hope in their ability to defeat Morgoth. We know that it did not happen that way, but do you think that this optimism is strange in light of their lack of hope for an eternal home? The Elves had seen Morgoth in his power, and were still hopeful, but the Men who had only rumor of his power, were cowed. How do you think these circumstances played out upon the different peoples, one race, but with different temperaments and longevity? Its the element of the unknown here I think: Men have heard the tales, distant and frightening, and have had some sight in the East of Morgoth's power. The Elves have faced him literally toe-to-toe: think of Fingolfin's valiant challenge and stand; Finrod has heard him speak. So the enemy is 'known' to the Elves, the fact of which is maybe never as frightening as the rumored and unknown? And Fingolfin actually hurt Morgoth! So maybe the Elves saw him as more of a real entity that, with the right force, they could defeat?

Andreth, in this declamation, presumes to know more of the world than the Elves. She thinks that she knows that their resistance is hopeless.
Is this pride on her part, or an expression of her despair? More personalizing here I think. I feel like what she is saying is 'if you lost what I lost'. So yes, despair cloaked in the larger philosophical question at hand.


Here, Finrod takes a stand. Up to now, all has been speculation, but he makes factual statement here. Men are wrong, Morgoth cannot have initiated death.
What do you think of this bold assertion? Has he been patronising her all along? Did her attribution to Morgoth of such a title of Lord of the World, finally set him off? Yes, it seems so! I think with an Elf's firsthand knowledge of the Valar that statement was jus too much for him to bear, and maybe rouses both his sense if defending the Divine as well as maybe providing him with some clarity as to where Andreth is coming from, since he then makes that demand for her to clarify further how they angered Eru. I think it is an emotional response but one of those that helps you also see the feelings clear within yourself, even if it comes in the form of a strong negative reaction. It sees to cut through his haze a bit.


Finrod seems a little harsh, but I think that he is only trying to challenge Andreth's views to test their validity. I detect no malice, but what do you see here? I see the extension of the emotional response above: Finrod knows the Valar, and Melkor/Morgoth - he will not stand to have them jumbled together, or Morgoth to be elevated above them. Its a real, gut reaction. No frozen, demurely elegant Elf here! It is a raw reaction to a shocking statement.

My opinion is that he is not looking to gain an answer, so much as to get Andreth to see her statements objectively. I am compelled by Finrod's argument' namely: Morgoth does not have the strength to condemn immortals to death. What about you? I agree here - I think her assertion of Morgoth as Lord has really changed the dynamic of the conversation. Tis is no mere chat anymore to Finrod. He *cannot* let her continue to think of Melkor as the be all and end all.

This unwillingness to speak of such matters to an Elf, how do you think it plays into the tale? Pride, ignorance, or something else? Does this refusal incline you to side more with Finrod? Was this the intent? Is the absence of grounding to Andreth's side, a mere lack of work, something that Tolkien had not gotten to writing, or was it meant to be ambiguous? I think it is meant, as JRRT often does, to show that his characters don't always know the truth. But I feel like her soft, indeterminate answer and looking into the fire feels like doubt on her part, doubt maybe that the proofs really exist...maybe Finrod's passion has struck a chord with her? Made her question her impassioned anger?
.
Andreth seems to become a raving voice to be hushed by the noble King, not quite the Wise woman. How, do you see her development so far? Does Finrod seem a little too perfect to you? I think she appears like this because her guard is so down, and this is so raw - but of course we don't know why yet. I would not say Finrod is perfect...his knowledge like hers is imperfect, but he has more strength of his conviction about the Valar in a way Andreth NEVER can have, having been among them. So in his way, in matters of faith, he doesn't HAVE to have any faith: he has firsthand proof. Where Andreth will have to struggle, to accept and to grasp in the dark as it were to hold onto belief, faith by definition.


Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Dec 29 2013, 6:47am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Dec 29 2013, 6:56am

Post #22 of 117 (1378 views)
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More agreement ... [In reply to] Can't Post


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It really is touching. One of the few times you see Finrod despair. He goes on to say "that it is not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways lighter burden than one that comes soon." What really struck me about this passage was that after making this statement he quickly went back to the subject of the swift death of men. It is almost like he was not willing to follow the thought to its conclusion. I get the feeling that he may have regretted saying this and changed the subject. Perhaps there was bitterness there and he did not want it revealed? I think you have a really good point here Mikah - after that sad line about the hunter, and no one speaking of hope...he does change the subject very quickly back to Men. He swings right into probing for proofs of her assertion that Death comes from Melkor. It is like he wants to move away from this subject ... maybe he is not as comfortable sharing the deepest depths of his pain as Andreth is with sharing hers?

Brethil and I are of like mind on a lot of our philosophies surrounding this. I do not believe that Andreth's despair comes from dying, but from her mortality separating her from Aegnor. I do not believe it would be nearly such an issue if she had fallen in love with a mortal. I believe that she would have seen it as more of a natural thing as does Finrod, had she not encountered his brother. We do agree a lot here Mikah! I feel her personal despair in all the rash statements she makes. It reminds me of someone desperate to wound in order to dull other pain, like she is struggling in a net that she cannot escape. So while this is a great piece of philosophy it also touches on the interpersonal connections that can be made between two people, and how it evolves through the exchange. And to be a bit OT I find it a lovely and complex character sketch too.



Have an idea relating to the world of JRR Tolkien that you would like to write about? If so, the Third TORn Amateur Symposium will be running in the Reading Room in March, 2014. We hope to see you there!





Mikah
Lorien

Dec 29 2013, 7:02am

Post #23 of 117 (1376 views)
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Pondering the point further... [In reply to] Can't Post

 Hmmm...you have made me think on this point even more Mikah, and brought me back to an idea that I hold very dear: the stewardship of the Firstborn for the Followers. These things Finrod names are all things the Elves love, and tend, and watch over...is lumping Men with them his unconscious way of expressing that feeling?

Now I too am pondering this point more! I had not considered Finrod feeling this way toward men until now. He of all the elves would have these feeling wouldn't he? Many of the elves, no names mentioned, ahem, Thingol, seemed rather prejudiced toward men. This certainly was not the case with Finrod or his brother was it? Perhaps this is the way Finrod felt. I have long wondered about his affection toward men and I think you may be onto something here. You may have just answered my long unanswered question!

Ah geez, I love Finrod too. I remember the first time reading The Silmarillion, I stared in shock at my book when he died. I could not believe it. He did not hesitate to go with Beren on his quest and you know he had to guess that it would be his doom (even if I didn't). Perhaps he foresaw hope in men as well? I find ME to be a wonderful testament to Tolkien's apparent belief and value of men as well. I could not agree with you more.







Mikah
Lorien

Dec 29 2013, 4:45pm

Post #24 of 117 (1368 views)
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Power of Morgoth [In reply to] Can't Post

Once again I agree with Brethil here. I have agreed with her on everything so far! I think that the fear of something unknown is far worse than when it is known to us. Isn't that why children can be afraid in their same bedrooms at night that they play in during the day? To mortals this fear was faceless, they were able to conjure up all sorts of images. With the elves having known Melkor it was hard to accept that he was undefeatable. As Brethil made mention, Fingolfin did wound him. Feanor did slam his door in his face. If they did see Melkor's weaknesses, those of say greed or jealousy, it humanized Melkor for them.

In my mind it is for these reasons that Finrod can be so absolute in his judgment that Morgoth can not be responsible to change the fate of a whole people. Finrod says to Andreth "But never even in the night have we believed that he could prevail against the Children of Eru. This one he might cozen, or that one he might corrupt; but to change the doom of a whole people of the Children, to rob them of their inheritance, if he could do that in Eru's despite, then great and more terrible is he by far than we guessed." Indeed and this would put Morgoth of such power that said power could rival that of Eru himself. This is a notioin that Finrod is not willing to consider and quite frankly I am not either.

Finrod does sound a bit harsh here. But if you really think about it, what Andreth is saying is rather shocking. I believe that Finrod is attempting to help her to think clearly, Kind of a verbal bucket of cold water. I believe that she is transferring her despair of death and her situation onto the challenge Elves and Men face with Morgoth. Finrod knows this. Does it make her less wise? I do not think so. She is just bringing much emotion into a philosophical discussion and we know that emotion can often cloud reason.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2013, 5:56pm

Post #25 of 117 (1364 views)
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My, you HAVE been productive!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink

While I was sleeping, quite a bit has happened!

It may look more complex than it actually was. I had a lot of notice, so I just typed some whenever I thought about it, editing came later.

I wrote this chronologically as I read a the essay, so some of my earlier questions may seem primitive, but I see that you have begun to flesh it out, and put it in context.

I consider the philosophy and story canon. Minor details like dates and chronology aside, I don't think that then story would have been altered too terribly. The problem of placement might have been the real reason it was not published.

The essay began as a story, and in the final notes, Tolkien says just about as much. In writing it, he may have come closer to Christianity than all else, because he was writing what he knew, one of the cardinal rules of authorship. I f he had tried to create something out of thin air, it may never have been done, or been grossly inferior.

The task of lore-keeping might have been closely held and revered, but with a smaller number, comes more errors. If they had a critical mass of remembrance, it could have worked, but they did not plan for accident, so it was bound to fail, if only after a looooong time.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

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