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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Day One - "Galadriel, political animal of Middle-earth", by Demosthenes
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Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 12 2013, 5:43pm

Post #76 of 106 (386 views)
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I wonder if Galadriel was still in Doriath when Turin lived there. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


cats16
Half-elven


Nov 12 2013, 5:58pm

Post #77 of 106 (383 views)
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I hadn't considered that. [In reply to] Can't Post

Good idea! I suppose this can all be tied in with Rivendell, Lothlorien, and the effects of the Three.

I wonder if she looked down on Elrond because of his mixed blood? This thought mainly comes into my mind because of the Noldorin pride that comes through again and again in the Sil. And conversely, I wonder if Elrond thought her to be a conniving mother-in-law? Could there have been tensions between them, given that his daughter chose to stay with Galadriel for an extended period of time?

Just some thoughts.

Edit: On second thought, perhaps she had no reason to look down on him. It was her brother, after all, who first came across Men. Out of all of the Elves, their House was the friendliest.


(This post was edited by cats16 on Nov 12 2013, 6:08pm)


cats16
Half-elven


Nov 12 2013, 6:02pm

Post #78 of 106 (377 views)
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Whew! Lots to take in here. [In reply to] Can't Post

Great insight as always, Elthir.

That's a very interesting glimpse into the character's development over the years. I'm curious what Galadriel would've looked like had the Professor lived, say, another five years. There is no way of nothing, of course, but I wonder how he would've continued with his work on her character.


cats16
Half-elven


Nov 12 2013, 6:06pm

Post #79 of 106 (375 views)
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*waves across the Sea to Valinor* [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting point you bring up here. For her sake, I hope not. Wink


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 12 2013, 6:45pm

Post #80 of 106 (369 views)
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Oh that's such a good question Arda! (*rubs hands together*) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I wonder if Galadriel was still in Doriath when Turin lived there




I had to find some of my notes from Turin's chapter, as I did look into this but came to no absolute conclusions, though the dates are suggestive.

Using a timeline I found that uses The Grey Annals as a reference, it seems that Galadriel dwelt *mostly* in Doriath. She leaves to visit Felagund (and has the conversation with him about him leaving no heir) somewhere between Year of the Sun (FA) 102-116; because it says there that Turgon did not yet dwell in Gondolin so this is the stretch of time in which Nargothrond was done but Gondolin was still under construction.

Turin's time in Doriath as a youth was a relatively narrow stretch, ~473-484, much later than the time we knew Galadriel visited Felagund 'for a time" which probably means a shortish interval - so she was probably back in Doriath at that point. Doriath falls ~507 and Galadriel and Celeborn flee south, placing them there at that point in time (supporting I think them being there in the late 400's, concurrent with Turin.)

So - again just suggestion - I *think* that she was there in Doriath with the child/young adult Turin.

(Any other clarifications welcomed Fellowship of the Room!)

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Elthir
Grey Havens

Nov 12 2013, 8:23pm

Post #81 of 106 (365 views)
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Good digging [In reply to] Can't Post

Good work Brethil.

I'll look at things more generally and from another angle: if we take the constructed Silmarillion out and look at the Quenta Silmarillion in HME, Galadriel sort of 'disappears' after a while. According to The Lord of the Rings, Galadriel appears to have passed over the Blue Mountains before the fall of Nargothrond ['ere the Fall of Nargothrond' and so on], and met Celeborn in Lorien, but the mountains are not actually named, and by the time of the Appendices at least, Celeborn became Sindarin [not Nandorin] too.

That said, Christopher Tolkien refers to an interesting statement about Celeborn in Unfinished Tales: 'It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn 'escaped the sack of Doriath') and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril -- but this is nowhere stated.'

That probably doesn't help though Smile


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 12 2013, 9:35pm

Post #82 of 106 (348 views)
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Thanks Elthir - a huge compliment coming from you! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Good work Brethil.

I'll look at things more generally and from another angle: if we take the constructed Silmarillion out and look at the Quenta Silmarillion in HME, Galadriel sort of 'disappears' after a while. According to The Lord of the Rings, Galadriel appears to have passed over the Blue Mountains before the fall of Nargothrond ['ere the Fall of Nargothrond' and so on], and met Celeborn in Lorien, but the mountains are not actually named, and by the time of the Appendices at least, Celeborn became Sindarin [not Nandorin] too.

That said, Christopher Tolkien refers to an interesting statement about Celeborn in Unfinished Tales: 'It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn 'escaped the sack of Doriath') and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril -- but this is nowhere stated.'

That probably doesn't help though Smile
She really does disappear for about 350 years or so. Actually this does help Elthir - with placing Celeborn and Galadriel at Doriath as a 'natural assumption' it seems to suggest continuity of that (if nothing else including versions of Celeborn - at least he isn't Teleporno anymore, thankfully) place as a central spot for Galadriel. So we have the early visit to Nargothrond as a stated exception, but with this bit from CT placing them at the sack of Doriath it does seem presumptive/negative inference that, if she isn't actually said to be anywhere else, that is where she would be. Thanks!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Nov 12 2013, 10:09pm

Post #83 of 106 (347 views)
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Ethereal Veneer [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps the difference was of recognition of their ambition?

I don't see Feanor as introspective at all. The quick pace of the Sil might contribute to this conception, but he seems to do something, and burn all his bridges (or boats) behind him. He doesn't seem like a planner, more of a revolutionary. Strong, powerful, successful...... remind me..... what the mortality rates for revolutionaries are?

Galadriel OTOH, really seems like a power under control. She can let loose, but chooses not to. I get the impression that she pondered long on her plans, and in one version she crafted a vessel to bear her separately to Beleriand. A lot of planning was involved I think. Thus, she might have been as ambitious, but in her planning she found some measure of wisdom She waited, if only to perfect her designs. Patience would seem to be a very Elvish virtue. When tempted by the Ring, she was in danger of losing that control she had built up, but restrained herself, and by doing so conquered the quick temper that may have been the cause of her trouble with the Rules.

Maybe that is why she was allowed to return to Aman? Because she had proven able to control herself, and channeled her ambition into good ends?

Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!


Elthir
Grey Havens

Nov 12 2013, 11:06pm

Post #84 of 106 (360 views)
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First Age history [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
(...) So we have the early visit to Nargothrond as a stated exception, but with this bit from CT placing them at the sack of Doriath it does seem presumptive/negative inference that, if she isn't actually said to be anywhere else, that is where she would be. Thanks!




My pleasure! I wish I could date and place this bit from Christopher Tolkien too. I'll look at Unfinished Tales again and see if it's possible. If there's nothing much there, maybe if I read it enough times, over and over, I'll receive some sort of inner message or something.

In any case I think Tolkien sort of made a mistake [heavens!] when he didn't revise this 'ere the fall of Gondolin' remark in The Lord of the Rings. Later, in The Road Goes Ever On, published in the 1960s, we learn that sometime after the fall of Morgoth Galadriel and Celeborn the Sinda ultimately cross the Blue Mountains [this time the mountains are named] and go to Eregion.

I think this represents the 'later history' [if not the ultimate version, considering the very very late 'unstained Galadriel' version], and to my mind, in this phase in makes sense that both Galadriel and Celeborn remained in Beleriand, and so why not Doriath, until its fall.

That's how I imagine things anyway, and essentially I force Galadriel to mean different mountains [mountains in Beleriand, not the Blue Mountains] when in The Lord of the Rings she seems to speak of passing 'mountains' before she meets Celeborn.

That's how I make it 'work' even though I admit my idea is a bit awkward. Of course Tolkien wasn't done tinkering with Galadriel as a banned leader of the Exiles, despite what he published in the 1960s...

... but that's another tale Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 12 2013, 11:11pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 2:37am

Post #85 of 106 (324 views)
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Crossing mountains... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
(...) So we have the early visit to Nargothrond as a stated exception, but with this bit from CT placing them at the sack of Doriath it does seem presumptive/negative inference that, if she isn't actually said to be anywhere else, that is where she would be. Thanks!


I think this represents the 'later history' [if not the ultimate version, considering the very very late 'unstained Galadriel' version], and to my mind, in this phase in makes sense that both Galadriel and Celeborn remained in Beleriand, and so why not Doriath, until its fall.

That's how I imagine things anyway, and essentially I force Galadriel to mean different mountains [mountains in Beleriand, not the Blue Mountains] when in The Lord of the Rings she seems to speak of passing 'mountains' before she meets Celeborn.

That's how I make it 'work' even though I admit my idea is a bit awkward. Of course Tolkien wasn't done tinkering with Galadriel as a banned leader of the Exiles, despite what he published in the 1960s...
... but that's another tale Smile




...might be easier than untangling Galadriel's movements! Laugh

I agree Elthir, that bit in Lorien is a puzzler because it does seem to indicate them leaving over said mountains before the fall of either Nargothrond or Gondolin (~495 and 510, respectively). I can see it 'before' the fall of Doriath or Gondolin - leaving Doriath right after Melian so just before its fall (and also before Gondolin's fall; leaving with Melian's departure makes sense character wise as well) and even being rather caught in the flow of refugees afterwards which matches up with text describing she and Celeborn fleeing south/ crossing mountains. But it seems harder to make the dates fit to cover 'ere Nargothrond' falling. Hmmm. Swap the words and make it "ere the fall of Doriath or Gondolin" and it maybe fits a bit better?

Maybe a bit of 'tinkering' in there....Cool

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 2:50am

Post #86 of 106 (327 views)
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Galadriel's evolution [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Perhaps the difference was of recognition of their ambition?
I don't see Feanor as introspective at all. The quick pace of the Sil might contribute to this conception, but he seems to do something, and burn all his bridges (or boats) behind him. He doesn't seem like a planner, more of a revolutionary. Strong, powerful, successful...... remind me..... what the mortality rates for revolutionaries are?
That's very true Rem, and even when Feanor is born he is recognized as having an inner fire that burns perhaps a bit too bright. Galadriel lives and functions within the confines of the larger world, where Feanor really tries to remake the world around his desires. And yes, you are quite right: the odds are not so good are they? Unsure

Galadriel OTOH, really seems like a power under control. She can let loose, but chooses not to. I get the impression that she pondered long on her plans, and in one version she crafted a vessel to bear her separately to Beleriand. A lot of planning was involved I think. Thus, she might have been as ambitious, but in her planning she found some measure of wisdom She waited, if only to perfect her designs. Patience would seem to be a very Elvish virtue. When tempted by the Ring, she was in danger of losing that control she had built up, but restrained herself, and by doing so conquered the quick temper that may have been the cause of her trouble with the Rules.
Maybe that is why she was allowed to return to Aman? Because she had proven able to control herself, and channeled her ambition into good ends?
JRRT seems to link her reprieve directly to her work against Sauron and her rejection of the Ring. In the passage from Letter # 297 that I quoted upthread, it continues to say (after her prayer for Frodo) "Her prayer was granted - but also her personal ban was lifted, in reward for her services against Sauron, and above all for her rejection of the temptation to take the Ring when offered to her. So at the end we see her taking ship." So the rejection of the Ring at the Mirror is really a litmus test - one that she is not aware of at the time (which legitimizes it morally, I think - in her mind no self-service could be gained by the rejection.) Can we say the sum total of her life to date all comes into play in that one act, because it indicates the state of her spirit in the quest for Power (and therefore the usurpation of Eru)? Maybe!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 13 2013, 7:08am

Post #87 of 106 (310 views)
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Is there no ship to bear you hence? [In reply to] Can't Post

No? *peers through palantir and waves back* Smile

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 13 2013, 7:18am

Post #88 of 106 (308 views)
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Ere the fall of Nargothrond [In reply to] Can't Post

Since that's what's said in LOTR, I personally feel that's what I have to make fit, not an isolated note briefly mentioned in Unfinished Tales. While I think it would have been cool if Galadriel and Celeborn had been worked into the narrative of Doriath's fall and the havens at Sirion, I also almost like it better that they're not worked into every major event from the First Age. It would feel a little forced in my opinion.

Anyway, this is what I kind of imagine. After her visit to Nargothrond, she probably felt again that desire to rule her own land, and seeing her brother as the ruler of his own kingdom, she probably departed from Doriath sometime in the middle of the First Age. So I think it's unlikely that she was still dwelling there when Turin was being raised. Honestly, that's probably why she survived so long Wink

Unfortunately, I don't have any of my books with me at the moment, so I can't check all the references. But I think this is the most likely course of action.

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


cats16
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 7:43am

Post #89 of 106 (303 views)
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I'll be in ME for quite some time, I think. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien just knew that FaceTime would come along soon enough. *peeks at palantir*


sador
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 8:20am

Post #90 of 106 (302 views)
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After the Dagor Bragollach [In reply to] Can't Post

would seem the most plausible time; Fingolfin had fallen, the Leaugue of Maedhros was broken, two of her brothers were defeated and the other two slain - but the Mountain passes were not yet watched and/or full with migrating Easterlings. But of course, Tolkien never spelled it out either way.

In fact, the shifting ideas of JRRT regarding Galadriel were a part of his attempt to 'tuck in' the characters mentioned in LotR to the Silmarillion legendarium, of which only Elrond (and possibly Glorfindel) had a place already. Cirdan found a more or less stable role, while both Gil-galad and Celebrimbor were more difficult to fit in, and Gildor was apparently forgotten (unless you view the changing of Inglor's name to Finrod a means of removing Gildor from the royal house of Finwe).

It is an indication of JRRT's perception of Galadriel as being very important, that he tried to actually write an active role for her (although he might have been forced to do so by her lament for Valimar at the end of Farewell to Lorien); but his ideas regarding her were no more fixed than those about her kinsmen which were slain by Sauron in the Second Age.

Not knowing where or in which context JRRT wrote that Celeborn escaped the ruin of Doriath, it is of course impossible to estimate its importance. If any - it appears that Tolkien would sometimes write down ideas, realise that they contradict other things he wrote, and discarded them; this could be no more than another aborted attempt to fit the LotR characters to the grander scheme.
But even if we accept this statement as canon, I'm not sure it means that Celeborn was actually in Doriath at the time of its final destruction. According to Tolkien, the ruin of Doriath was wrought when Thingol asked Beren to bring a Silmaril. And Doriath fell silent immediately after, when Luthien sang no more; its defences were first breached when Characharoth burst in, and it was sacked by the Dwarves of Nogrod before being finally ruined by the sons of Feanor. The place itself was not ruined until after, when the Sea covered it.
Which of course leads to a more important question than whether Galadriel saw Turin - did she see the Silmaril? And how did that jewel affect her, if at all?

One last point - in The Road Goes Ever On (which I haven't read yet), Celeborn and Galadriel are supossed to have remained in Beleriand until Morgoth was defeated.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 13 2013, 8:34am

Post #91 of 106 (298 views)
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Hipster Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

FaceTiming before it was cool...

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 13 2013, 2:02pm

Post #92 of 106 (291 views)
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That makes things tricky [In reply to] Can't Post

The quote from The Road Goes Ever On certainly makes this whole issue much more tricky. But if I had to choose one of the two as having more weight and authority, it would have to be The Lord of the Rings. So I think it really must have been that she crossed the mountains before the fall of Nargothrond. Your thoughts that it might have been after the Dagor Bragollach make a lot of sense.

Regarding Gildor, I do wish at least something would have been made of him. I guess I wouldn't know where to put him, and I wouldn't like him as one of the primary players, but a brief mention of him wouldn't be unwelcome.

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Nov 13 2013, 2:07pm

Post #93 of 106 (288 views)
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Moral tests [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmm... There seemed to be done kind of enmity between Galadriel and the Valar, the reason she 'needed' a pardon. This unwitting moral testing might have been used by Eru/the Valar as a final gauge of her moral center. They did not orchestrate the test, but in seeing the results, they could commend her resolve and know she was good at heart.

Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 3:41pm

Post #94 of 106 (281 views)
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Sets of possibilities [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Since that's what's said in LOTR, I personally feel that's what I have to make fit, not an isolated note briefly mentioned in Unfinished Tales. While I think it would have been cool if Galadriel and Celeborn had been worked into the narrative of Doriath's fall and the havens at Sirion, I also almost like it better that they're not worked into every major event from the First Age. It would feel a little forced in my opinion.

Anyway, this is what I kind of imagine. After her visit to Nargothrond, she probably felt again that desire to rule her own land, and seeing her brother as the ruler of his own kingdom, she probably departed from Doriath sometime in the middle of the First Age. So I think it's unlikely that she was still dwelling there when Turin was being raised. Honestly, that's probably why she survived so long Wink

Unfortunately, I don't have any of my books with me at the moment, so I can't check all the references. But I think this is the most likely course of action.





That can make sense Arda - in a way you have to sort of choose your option here, with not having tons of information, and what there is being a bit contradictory! Galadriel leaving before the fall of Nargothrond could make perfect sense character wise in that she may want to start her own kingdom...it would mean leaving Melian, but she would have had Celeborn with her so the 'grown up' restlessness to leave does fit. The only part I would wonder about is whether she would choose to leave Melian to strike out on her own, or if she would have stayed with her until she departed. If so did leave, perhaps not knowing that Thingol's death and Melian's departure loomed, that's a sad goodbye to reflect on.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 4:00pm

Post #95 of 106 (275 views)
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Unforeseen good brought about by the evil of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hmm... There seemed to be done kind of enmity between Galadriel and the Valar, the reason she 'needed' a pardon. This unwitting moral testing might have been used by Eru/the Valar as a final gauge of her moral center. They did not orchestrate the test, but in seeing the results, they could commend her resolve and know she was good at heart.




I think its a lovely repercussion: as Ranger pointed out in his Symposium piece, Eru said that from evil intent will arise good, as cannot be imagined. So some of the unintended ripples from Sauron's creation of the Ring is the ability of one of the greatest of the Noldor to return to Aman. Cool

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





(This post was edited by Brethil on Nov 13 2013, 4:00pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Nov 13 2013, 4:09pm

Post #96 of 106 (274 views)
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into the Blue [mountains] [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
One last point - in The Road Goes Ever On (which I haven't read yet), Celeborn and Galadriel are supossed to have remained in Beleriand until Morgoth was defeated.




Right. And that's why I combine this with the admittedly vague Celeborn note. Both RGEO and LOTR are author-published of course. If forced to choose a weight between them, I would probably choose LOTR over RGEO too. That said RGEO has a weight of 'later-ness' to it at least, and LOTR is ambiguous as to what mountains are being referred to.

Plus LOTR at least seems to say Galadriel passed over some mountains without Celeborn, which seems a bit odd if Celeborn is Sindarin, which is again attested in RGEO.

So what about a passing of Mountains from Hithlum to Doriath, and together Galadriel and Celeborn then fight the long defeat? The awkwardness of that is, admittedly, that Galadriel would have crossed these mountains not only ere the fall of these places, but very early indeed.

That said: Galadriel has an audience that includes Hobbits here. Does she need to be precise? Could we not say that 'ere the Fall of Rome' generally means 'a long long time ago' and that Galadriel's meaning can be similar?

Maybe? Too strained?

Or may be too strained Wink


cats16
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 5:12pm

Post #97 of 106 (263 views)
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LOL! Those are two words I've never heard strung together. // [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool


(This post was edited by cats16 on Nov 13 2013, 5:12pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 13 2013, 6:36pm

Post #98 of 106 (265 views)
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Galadriel the water-boarder? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Although, one could maybe argue that her testing of the fellowship is morally ambiguous. There's a discussion in that I reckon.


I will take her side on this one. We only get to see two powerful Elves in action in LOTR, and Elrond is all talk and contemplation. No magic mirrors or phials, and no revealing of his ring to Frodo. I'm not faulting him. Just that he seems rather passive.

Galadriel is the Elf of action, summoning White Councils in the past, exposing Frodo to her ring and mirror, dispensing special gifts to the Fellowship, sending an Eagle to look for Gandalf's body after his Balrog fight, sending prophetic messages to Aragorn and Legolas (and a flirtatious one to Gimli), and attacking Dol Guldur after Sauron's fall. It seems to me that she takes on a great part of the responsibility for success in "the long defeat," so it's only natural for her to interrogate the Fellowship when they arrive in her court. She would seem irresponsible if she let them pass through her realm without looking for any problems in their ranks.

In addition to that, I think her telepathic probing/tempting of them is a reproduction of what the Ring does/would do to them anyway, so she's toughening them up for what may come. Did Sam later pass his own test in Mordor successfully (when tempted to become a giant gardener to heal the land), because Galadriel had already given him a test of her own? That's a stretch, but I wonder about it nevertheless.

Though I think she was justified, I wouldn't personally want her to invade my mind, uninvited, performing interrogation tricks in the name of the greater good. So there is some moral ambiguity there. Couldn't she have tested them another way? I think of her time with Frodo at the Mirror as a test of him. Couldn't she have done that with the others and made it seem less adversarial or suspicious than invading their minds?


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 8:07am

Post #99 of 106 (237 views)
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Since the options are all contradictory [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's kind of fun to not have a set story, but rather a few different alternatives. We "know" that she left was born in Valinor and left there during the flight of the Noldor. We also know she dwelt in Doriath for a while, befriended Melian, and visited her brother in Nargothrond. We also "know" that by the end of the Third Age, she was living in Lothlorien and was the keeper of one of the three elven rings. Most everything else in between has been left to legend, and no clear story can be discovered. The mysteriousness adds to the story, I think. Smile

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Nov 14 2013, 11:56am

Post #100 of 106 (229 views)
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more or less [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I realize you were speaking generally, can we at least add that we that know Galadriel was banned for being a leader of the Exiles?

Okay, can I add it? For just a bit more Wink

This is quite explicit in RGEO, and refers to already published description in LOTR, again two author-published sources. The only 'glitch' I can think of here, in author-published text, is that Galadriel first [directly after rejecting the One] at least seems to think she can return into the West [and to say that she knew the ban was lifted at this moment becomes problematic because her songs come after this].

I think we could also add that Galadriel was in Eregion 'at some point' in the Second Age. Not as a founder or leader in my opinion, but I don't think such a general statement is contradicted in any of the later texts concerning her movements in the SA.


Although again: I realize how one can generally say much of this period is hazy, so I don't really disagree with your phrasing.


And perhaps I'm missing something obvious, but I might have a case for 'less' too Unsure Galadriel at Nargothrond.


Later Quenta Silmarillion section 101 contains the passage: 'Yet Galadriel his sister dwelt never in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.'

Christopher Tolkien comments: 'The statement that 'Galadriel dwelt never in Nargothrond' is at variance with what is said in GA 108 (p, 44) that in the year 102, when Nargothrond was completed, 'Galadriel came from Doriath and dwelt there a while.'


I'm not sure which text came after the other, or if maybe they were meant to differ (being different traditions at least in origin), or again, if I'm simply missing something here. In any case, of course the 1977 Silmarillion includes Galadriel visiting Nargothrond for certain, but at the moment I'm not sure how certain even this is.

Hmm.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 14 2013, 12:05pm)

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