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kiwifan
Rohan
Nov 8 2013, 10:43pm
Post #26 of 87
(557 views)
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Hear, hear! Thank you Meigwit, it needed to be said
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I know TH AUJ has flaws but watching it never fails to lift my spirits, and it simply makes me happy that I have the opportunity to return to Middle-earth whenever real life gets me down. Who needs perfection anyway? Those who keep nagging and whingeing and 'trolling' should just get out there and make their own version of it if they are so sure they could do it better. Me, I'm just deeply grateful to PJ and his team, and am looking forward to the EE. And to DoS! 
'Goodness gracious, you really are a messie!' 'Oh no, I'm not, these are all just mathoms...'
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Nov 8 2013, 11:40pm
Post #27 of 87
(521 views)
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Your insight is beautifully put, MEIGWIT.
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I agree and am additionally grateful to you for speaking up in support of empathy. The world would be a more hospitable place if we had more of that to go around.
Welcome more children to Middle Earth. Support The S.H.I.R.E. Project!
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Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien
Nov 9 2013, 12:41am
Post #28 of 87
(509 views)
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I agree with RosieLass on this
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Everyone has a right to their opinion, even those who dislike or are disappointed by the films. As long as we keep things civil, there is no reason to suppress negative comments. If I have issues with a filmmaker's adaptation of a story, I think it's perfectly legitimate to raise criticism or have discussion about what did or didn't work. That doesn't mean that I'm ungrateful or that I don't appreciate Peter Jackson's talents or the pressure he was under after taking over the project. It just means I have a differing opinion of the final product.
I didn't find Azog or Radagast's plots to be rushed or unfinished. I objected to them being there at all. I don't feel that they or many of the other changes and additions are necessary to the adaptation of the story. You may disagree with that. And that's fine. But I don't think I should stay quiet and simply be grateful if my response to the film was mixed.
I'm a fan of Jackson's work. The Lord of the Rings movies are my favorite films of all time and I've enjoyed some of his other films. And there were aspects of AUJ that I thought were fantastic. There just also happen to be aspects that I disagreed with.
To kiwifan, who said we should stop whinging and make our own movie -- Sure, like that's going to happen. As if it's so simple to get the movie rights to The Hobbit and a multi-million dollar budget. If everyone who criticized a film was told to be quiet and go make their own version, there would be no film criticism or discussion at all.
(This post was edited by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Nov 9 2013, 12:42am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Nov 9 2013, 12:43am
Post #30 of 87
(481 views)
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I agree Meigwit, and add my Thank You to the list! //
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Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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patrickk
Rohan
Nov 9 2013, 12:52am
Post #31 of 87
(543 views)
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You seem to forget the Hobbit is a Children's Book
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..to read it seems very dumbed down until you realise it is for 10 year olds, and has endured. PJ has done a lot to meld the tone of it (fun and whimsy, and droll British humour) into a much larger (more serious) story arc, which Tolkein himself tried to do with revisions and the appendices of LOR. Not sure what the dumster diving reference is about (is that a US expression???).
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Starling
Half-elven
Nov 9 2013, 1:05am
Post #32 of 87
(545 views)
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You clearly do not like what Peter Jackson has done with The Hobbit, and state it very strongly.
I'm not sure you can talk about the motivations or inner thoughts of other viewers though.
So my question is this: Why would you put your energy into talking about something that clearly brings you no joy? If you love the books (and I am assuming I might be safe in thinking you do), you still have those, and no film adaptation can take away your appreciation of Tolkien's writing.
The nearest thing to this I can think of as an example of my own is my reaction to the recent Tintin film. The Tintin books are as important to me as Tolkien's work is to many on these boards. I was anticipating the film with a mixture of excitement and dread, because I was worried about what might be done to my beloved stories. I worried about what it would look like visually, what liberties might be taken with the plot, how the important characters would sound...basically everything. I tried to keep an open mind and stayed away from sneak peeks and speculation so that I could just respond in my own way. When I went to see the film I was almost immediately disappointed, and became more and more despondent as the film progressed. When I look back now, I really should have left the theatre and saved myself the misery. But here's the thing: I cannot deny I was deeply disappointed, but that was basically the end of it for me. I think I posted a few times about it here on TORn, in the regular movies thread, and maybe in a couple of conversations where it was relevant. What I am writing now would be the first time I have mentioned the Tintin film in years probably.
There are so many film and other visual experiences that I love, I don't want to spend time thinking and taking about the things I can't stand. And I still have my beloved Tintin books - nothing can ever diminish the joy they bring me.
There were parts of An Unexpected Journey I loved, parts that I liked, and parts that I disliked. The parts I liked definitely outweighed the less enjoyable parts. I don't spend a lot of time talking about the film because I don't have particularly strong feelings about it, whereas I can talk about the LOTR films till the cows come home. But I would never want to put my energy into talking about a film that makes me downright grumpy, and that's why the Tintin film has long ago dropped off the list of things I can be bothered talking about.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Nov 9 2013, 6:51am)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Nov 9 2013, 1:08am
Post #33 of 87
(520 views)
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Critics,
Naysayers,
Malcontents,
People FULLY "Prepared to Be Disappointed"?
are just
"Flotsum&Jetsom"...
laid Waste
beside
the
The Long & Lonely Road..
Bomby
("An old Reader, who has waited Almost 50 years to see this?")
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burgahobbit
Rohan
Nov 9 2013, 1:10am
Post #34 of 87
(485 views)
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I thought that MEIGWIT's post was fantastic! Some very good perspective on looking at the bright side and appreciating what Peter Jackson has accomplished, and what greater things may be in store for the future. Well said, Meigwit.
What you said Fredeghar Wayfarer, also makes a lot of sense. Peter Jackson didn't have to include some of the things that burdened the film, such as Radagast and the Witch King subplot, things that would have been included regardless of the time he had. But other things such as the pacing and some of the clumsiness in the effects and other areas could have been fixed if there was more time (the trilogy decision obviously didn't help in this regard either). In both LOTR and The Hobbit, changes were constantly being made to the script, so with the short space of time to create the latter work these alterations could not possibly evolve into something as great as what came with LOTR.
"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 9 2013, 1:17am
Post #35 of 87
(530 views)
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means garbage picking, i.e. digging through trash to find items you want/need.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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HiddenSpring
Lorien
Nov 9 2013, 1:37am
Post #36 of 87
(481 views)
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I doubt PJ needs any 'gratitude'
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He had great fun doing these films and he wouldn't have done them if he didn't want to.
Personally I'd rather reserve my gratitude for good films, not good intentions (or what we perceive as such). Which is why I'll always be thankful for LOTR. The first Hobbit film... not so much - there's good and bad to spare - but I certainly have hopes for the second one.
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Elskidor
Rohan
Nov 9 2013, 1:48am
Post #37 of 87
(489 views)
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Fans are really the hardest to please
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And some of them are waaay to judgmental, which I will never understand at times. Some times it's just amusing though. One of my old friends was really mad after he saw Fellowship of the ring, and his entire basis was the way he had interrupted the books, which I found funny but he was completely serious.
He saw the Lord of the Rings books as a bunch of happy pot smoking hobbits and wizards that were on a journey to save the world, that were heavily influenced over marijuana and got stoned and sang songs to make their journey more fun. So he went into the theater expecting to watch a stoner/Cheech and Chong-like fantasy film, and stayed mad about this, and wasn't able to drop it until RoTK came out and learned to accept it for what it was without the pot.
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Ziggy Stardust
Gondor
Nov 9 2013, 1:52am
Post #38 of 87
(460 views)
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There is no requirement to be grateful. And just because some isn't grateful doesn't make them bad, evil, or malign, nor does it mean that they think Jackson is such.
While I enjoyed AUJ (as I've said many times before, but I think some people like to think I'm anti-Hobbit  ) Some of the creative decisions made I wish had been done better. Examples: I wish there was no bird-dung on Radagast. It was just gross. The axe embedded in Bifur's head looked over the top. Nori's Tristar hair-do looked silly. The Goblin-King looked...wrong.Just wrong. But those are minor things.
I'm more concerned about the creative decisions that might be made in DoS. If my nightmares don't come true, the examples I listed can be easily forgiven. Cause when you think about it, those things are not as bad as the creative decisions that might happen later.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Nov 9 2013, 1:58am
Post #39 of 87
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You're right Bomby - the film stands as it is.
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Film is Forever
All spectrums of opinions out there, and there are as real and legitimate as the person who thinks them. For my part, like you Bomby, I am thrilled to be in Middle-earth and not just because its all that is out there: I truly love the franchise, the result and, so importantly (because that is what is at the heart of it), the wildly talented PEOPLE that make it all happen. It makes me happy, and I do so like to be happy!
I never want anyone to think expressing joy means that their opinion is being discounted if it is not the same. But its nice to have threads here and there where one can share the enjoyment of the films with others who also enjoy it.
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea
Nov 9 2013, 2:02am
Post #41 of 87
(473 views)
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So if i think that AUJ is not a good film then i am not
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grateful or empathetic, or a cynic? I absolutely, unconditionally love ALL of the LotR films, but think that DoS is a deeply flawed film. This time last year i was 100% behind AUJ and couldn't wait to see it. And it is not my fault that the film came up short against the previous three films. PJ and Co. made many choices that seem to fly in the face of what they did in adapting LotR (in my opinion!), and that's on them as far as i'm concerned.
I'm looking forward to seeing Dos, and i'm hoping for the best-- the Sneak Peak fills me with hope. And i really do appreciate all the effort that all the actors and technicians and artists put into these films (the Appendices are brilliant, seperate from the films). But if it's not a good film, i'm not going to pretend that it is to make people that i don't even know happy. Like any work of art, as a viewer, i reserve the right to have an opinion. Good intentions are great, but i'm not going to abandon my own critical thinking because PJ and Co. "meant well."
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 9 2013, 2:34am
Post #42 of 87
(456 views)
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Well, that's a problem in every fandom, I think.
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We love stories and relate to them because of what resonates with our own emotions, thoughts, tastes and experiences, so instead of seeing only what the author was thinking and seeing, some of ourselves gets wrapped up in the stories we love. And that's why it's difficult to the point of impossibility to please everyone; because no matter how detailed a story is, there are always gaps to be filled in by the imagination and each person's own story and perspective on the world gets mixed in with their interpretation and shapes and colors it. I've said for years that if someone had been able to take what Tolkien himself pictured while he wrote and put it on screen for everyone to see, some people would still hate it and complain that it was wrong because it didn't match how they'd envisioned it. When we see something on with our eyes which doesn't match the picture in our heads, we experience a sort of cognitive dissonance, where the world we're seeing contradicts the one we have always "known" to be the "true" one and it makes us feel uncomfortable and unbalanced. That feeling of unease will vary depending on how strong the person's original concept was and how different it is from what they see. People deal with the dissonance differently. Some people react to that feeling with anger, some with grief because they badly wanted something that turns out not to exist after all, and some adjust their expectations and create a new normal for themselves which allows them to reconcile the apparent contradictions.
In the end, we can tell each other how we have dealt with the situation as we see it, but we can't tell someone else how they must respond.
I loved LOTR because there were a few times when what I saw on the screen matched what I had always seen in my own head (even one or two that bettered it!). Those moments were glorious. There was also plenty that didn't match but that I could like even though it was different, and a few things I'll never like because they're too different, either from the text or my personal mind's eye movie. But overall I loved the trilogy. AUJ had fewer "perfect" moments and more which I had a hard time adjusting to, so I merely like it instead of loving it. I expect some more wonderful moments as well as some I won't find wonderful in DOS, but I know that's how it will be and I'll take my bits of glory where I can find them (and I'm hoping for plenty of them!). But then, I've always been more of a "collector" than a "ranker" when it comes to favorites; one favorite thing doesn't displace another for me, it simply moves in and sets up shop next to it, so I can like lots of very different things at the same time for different reasons. I love the books and I love the movies, and they both have distinct and different places in my affections. But I can understand those who couldn't find enough in these movies to like - there are plenty of favorite books (and plays) of mine that have been made into really atrocious movies in which I can find no good thing, even though other people seem to (inexplicably) like them. I can't like them and I can't change them, so I choose to ignore and avoid them as best I can.
A little acceptance and forbearance between those who love the story whether or not they can love the adaptation goes a long way. We just need to remember that we still have a lot of common ground and not get completely blinded by the differences.
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Old Toby
Grey Havens
Nov 9 2013, 2:36am
Post #43 of 87
(435 views)
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I agree 100 percent! There were things I loved and things I didn't love so much in all the films, but I still am very grateful they were made and that PJ and the entire Weta crew and artists involved have put and continue to put so much energy and attention into what they do. Because of them my world is a much brighter, merrier place! And I have these films to keep with me for the rest of my life. I realize some people wish these films had never been made, or any films about Tolkien's world. To me this is a very selfish viewpoint, denying others joy because of one's own tastes (not saying this about any particular person or persons on these boards necessarily, but I've heard this complaint myself from others elsewhere). I think they are doing a smashing job and I'm constantly amazed by the dedication and talent of the individuals involved in these films. Thanks again for the post.
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
(This post was edited by Old Toby on Nov 9 2013, 2:37am)
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Kim
Valinor
Nov 9 2013, 3:16am
Post #44 of 87
(417 views)
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I love AUJ and think they did an excellent job with the design work, especially considering the timing when Peter stepped in. I didn't really appreciate the difficulties until he said that although GDT had come up with some great designs, he (Peter) couldn't direct someone else's movie.
I add my thanks to yours.
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patrickk
Rohan
Nov 9 2013, 8:38am
Post #45 of 87
(381 views)
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...as to how an obscure US expression on 'dumpster diving has anything to do with the Hobbit or its fans, unless of course it is a piece very fine irony well beyond antipodeans.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 9 2013, 10:31am
Post #46 of 87
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the poster was insinuating that the movies were complete garbage and that looking for anything good in them would resemble that activity. Personally, I disagree. But if he wants to throw the movies in their entirety in the trash, I might well be tempted to do some dumpster diving to retrieve them. One man's trash is another woman's treasure, and all that. 
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Nov 9 2013, 10:35am)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Nov 9 2013, 10:45am
Post #47 of 87
(388 views)
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Bomby's other Favorite Concept Book..
"Lost Horizon" by James Hilton
published about the time of the Hobbit
(English writer.."Goodby Mister Chips")
The High Lama (Elrond?)
of Shangi-LA (Rivendell?)
says to their Hero
"once in a while,
you Glimpse the Eternal"
Sorta sums up Bomby's
view of these Movies.
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Elskidor
Rohan
Nov 9 2013, 11:49am
Post #48 of 87
(338 views)
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Everyone on this forum needs to read the last paragraph of this. I don't appreciate these ridiculous joke films at all and after seeing what PJ has done with them I personally do wish they had never been done now. Sorry, no dumpster diving for me.... ron
I was going to reply to having to dumpster dive for clean posts, but then I realized you and this post falls very much in the minority. I guess that's why we are still receiving "these fantastic films", and you are still pouting.
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jtarkey
Rohan
Nov 9 2013, 12:13pm
Post #49 of 87
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There's actually a really good answer to this question
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If you are a big enough fan of something, it can be very difficult to let go.
I love Tolkien. I love the LOTR films. I was disappointed with AUJ.
But I've spent years on these boards discussing the films. Though I don't hate AUJ in the way some people do, I understand why people who were displeased continue to discuss.
Just as people who liked the film want others to like it as well, those who dislike it want others to see it's flaws.
"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Nov 9 2013, 1:06pm
Post #50 of 87
(310 views)
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do those who dislike it want others to see what they perceive as 'its flaws'? Why not just let go and stick to the books? I can never understand why people would waste time on something they dislike. There are so many things one can like on this planet to focus one's attention on…
Just as people who liked the film want others to like it as well, those who dislike it want others to see it's flaws.
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