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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 4:15am
Post #1 of 28
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Worries concerning Dol Guldur. Being captured in one movie and knocked out in the next would be TOO much.
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We know Gandalf in these films will be facing some of his greatest challanges... but the fellow who won out against a Balrog should be shown as very formidable, and the tactician of all folk of Good Will, also needs to be shown as foreward thinking.
Bottom line? He needs to have a plan for getting himself out of Dol Guldur, even if Radagast helps. And, very importantly, between the pair of them, he needs to escape IN this movie. It would be ridiculous, not to mention severly diminishing, to have him caged in this film, only to have to be freed by The Council in the next film and turn around and get knocked the hell out, or worse still to not even be a part of the active assault on the Necromancer and his lair... WHAT? It is Gandalf who escapes and alerts The Council of their Peril, and he is definitely active in the ousting of Sauron from Dol Guldur WITH the council. If those things are changed, it will be abominable.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Elessar
Valinor
Nov 5 2013, 4:40am
Post #2 of 28
(779 views)
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around seeing hurt as well. This needs to be balanced out correctly to not take away from Gandalf.
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MechaGodzilla
Rivendell
Nov 5 2013, 5:54am
Post #3 of 28
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I understand and largely share your concern regarding this subplot
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They could very easily make a mess of this, and I hope they won't. Now, he is a beloved character, and so it makes sense they will want to take advantage of that, make the audience worry some about him, but it shouldn't be taken too far, to where it diminishes the character. Gandalf has a role to play, and it doesn't involve him spending the better part of that role locked up in a cage.
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Bumpypotato
Bree
Nov 5 2013, 6:19am
Post #4 of 28
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It seems that they're pushing the theme of desperation and the splintering of the company in this one, so leaving one of the characters - a beloved, and famously powerful one, no less - could have a strong emotional impact. My only hope is that if they do this they justify his imprisonment well.
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Remus
Lorien
Nov 5 2013, 6:36am
Post #5 of 28
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I would want the Battle of Dol Guldur and Gandalf showdown with the Necromancer in this movie. Saving everything for the last movie feels too forced. Battle of the Five armies could be like 1 hour. And then we have Dol Guldur battle and Lake Town AND gonna wrap everything up.
the third movie must be at least 3 hours i guess....
But i really wanna see that, i wanna see that scene where we see Sauron walking the steps INSIDE of Bara-Dƻr and taking his seat upon his dark throne and summoning the eye, looking into the camera and then BAM! THE END.
-My thoughts on the best ending scene/post credit scene on TABA.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 7:14am
Post #6 of 28
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Absolutely, Elessar and MecaGodzila. If they aren't careful they will make him look like he cannot get out of any supernatural fix
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on his own, AND completely alter the true story in the process. Gandalf, even as the Gray, was a Power, and a very competent effective one. The sentiment audiences have in Fellowship, both at Isengard and in Moria, should be just like those of Frodo and the Fellowship, Faramir and even Celeborn, "What! Gandalf was captured! Oh man. This is serious trouble." "Oh no! Gandalf was lost?! What a dreadful foe it was who claimed him!" It cannot and SHOULD not ever be, "oh... I bet he's going ta get his ass kicked again. He handles all right with orcs and whatnot, but anytime a villain with any magic shows up, he gets beaten to the ground."
We will see plenty of him coming up short against Saruman in Fellowship. We DON'T need to see him fall just as short against Sauron's wraiths. Against Sauron himself, yes, but not ANY of his minions, none of whom were as mighty as the Balrog, whose power would also be diminished by default if the Wizard who vanquished him cannot hold his own with any other supernatural menace.
These films should not converge to convey a notion that Gandalf the Gray was the least among the Wise and couldn't get himself out of a tight spot. It is important, also for the sake of being true to the story, that HE escape and warn the council. With Radagast's help is fine, but he still needs to escape, largely on his own power, and take word back to the rest of The Wise. Can you imagine him sitting in a cage until they show up, IN STARK CONTRAST AND DEFIANCE TO THE NOVEL AND APPENDECIES, amd then being freed only to get knocked out? Or sitting out the entire battle against Sauron? Dear God, I hope those worst case scenario do NOT come to pass. 
They could very easily make a mess of this, and I hope they won't. Now, he is a beloved character, and so it makes sense they will want to take advantage of that, make the audience worry some about him, but it shouldn't be taken too far, to where it diminishes the character. Gandalf has a role to play, and it doesn't involve him spending the better part of that role locked up in a cage.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Nov 5 2013, 7:15am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 7:23am
Post #7 of 28
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How famously powerful he is may depend on how they handle this. If done badly or without proper respect,
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or with more of an eye towards making a goddess of Galadriel or an arch-demon out of the Witch-King than properly acknowledging the hidden power of the veiled Angels amongst their midst, that famous power may become, most unfairly and unfortunately, a matter of debate. If he is captured and cannot free himself, it will mean that in four films that feature Gandalf the Gray, he is beaten and captured twice, and overpowered at least three times with a fourth highly suggested for film 3. In other words, he gets trapped in every other film, and he looses every battle against every supernatural foe, save the last which is a draw (also serving to diminish the standing of an ancient Maiar Demon mightier than any one of the Nine). Sounds like a damned mess. I hope it doesn't happen quite this way. It seems that they're pushing the theme of desperation and the splintering of the company in this one, so leaving one of the characters - a beloved, and famously powerful one, no less - could have a strong emotional impact. My only hope is that if they do this they justify his imprisonment well.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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starlesswinter
Lorien
Nov 5 2013, 8:30am
Post #8 of 28
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I don't think audiences see Gandalf as weak though
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Even if he is captured and beaten that many times, as you say, I really don't think audiences think of Gandalf that way. Most people think of him as a powerful wizard, and whether or not he is defeated one more time in the cinematic version of Middle-earth, that general impression isn't going to change.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 9:04am
Post #9 of 28
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I wish I shared your optimist view, Starless Winter, I truly do. I, however, can still recall
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, indelably, reactions by some when The Balrog showed up, wondering what it was that Gandalf would do against such a dreadful foe. Now, that would be undertandable for anyone against the spectacular, intimidating might of a Balrog, but that wasn't why they said it, as some of their follow up and tones made clear. They hadn't seen him do very much in the film other than being defeated by Saruman.
Now, the defeat of the demon and his strong performance, magically, in An Unexpected Journey cleared away much of that, but I am not convinced that him getting his ass whipped, pardon the phrase, from here on out won't reverse that drastically. ESPECIALLY if the defeats come at the hand of any being in Dol Guldur less than Sauron himself, whether Nazgul or (God forbid) that friggerfraggin (you know I want to use stronger adjectives and verbage here) Azog and the orcs. I really can't imagine the latter. Ugh!
Gandalf is not and need not be portrayed as the greatest Power in Middle-Earth, but whatever his humble attitude and outward affectation, he is CERTAINLY not the least of them. It would not do at all to have him fail and loose in every single contest of magic. Radagast holds up his end and then some against The Witch-King of Angmar, why should Gandalf do less in this same time frame???
And neither is the Balrog the least of the remaining Dark Powers. By Tolkien's very own estimation, by the reckoning of the Elves and by all logic considering the history, the Balrog was the second most powerful force of evil in the Third Age after Sauron. He killed Durin, ruined the greatest of the Dwarf Kingdoms, and set a third of Lothlorien's Elves to flight. Is this ancient captain of Melkor The Morgoth now to be dismissed as a less mighty foe than any one of THe Nine phantom-kings of Men? Than stupid Azog?!
I don't know what will happen. I hope for the best, but every new thing I see makes me ever more concerned that they are going to make a situation that leaves Gandalf seeming like a helpless underling to the rest of the Wise, and an insufficient foe not only to Sauron (which is fair) but to all of his supernatural servants.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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starlesswinter
Lorien
Nov 5 2013, 9:19am
Post #10 of 28
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Well, that's halfway through one film though
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No one sees Gandalf, after four very long films, as a weak character.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 9:24am
Post #11 of 28
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Two of the four are yet to be determind, StarlessWinter. If he does not acquit himself well
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in these next two... like nightfall in Winter that comes without a star indeed.  If he smashes the orcs, faces down the Nine, THEN is defeated and captured by Sauron, and aided in his escape by Radagast, then its okay. If it goes another way, if the Witch-King or, God forbid it, the orcs overcome him... if he ends the second movie trapped and seemingly beyond hope..........     No one sees Gandalf, after four very long films, as a weak character.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Shirriff Anthony
Bree
Nov 5 2013, 11:16am
Post #12 of 28
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The witch king breaking gandalf's staff at the siege of Minas Tirith really did a disservice to his character. I for one hope Gandalf is not man handled in Dol Guldor.
Faramir: I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Nov 5 2013, 12:46pm
Post #13 of 28
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Yes, that made me really angry in RotK
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They pointlessly tampered with one of my favourite scenes in the book there. I agree with what you say about Gandalf/Dol Guldur.
The witch king breaking gandalf's staff at the siege of Minas Tirith really did a disservice to his character. I for one hope Gandalf is not man handled in Dol Guldor.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Nov 5 2013, 1:10pm
Post #14 of 28
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Don't forget that he didn't face the Balrog yet
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This isn't the same Gandalf we see in FOTR. THIS Gandalf never faced an superior enemy as strong as a Nazgūl, Saruman, the Balrog or even Sauron.
This time it will be his first confrontation with a greater force and that's why he is that nervous and needs more courage (not just Bilbo needs it). He fears Sauron and I think that's why he was chosen for his mission. He will be defeated at first but he will grow on his defeat. Just as he did after he fell in FOTR.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Nov 5 2013, 2:28pm
Post #15 of 28
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If a fight dragged long that long it would lose the audience and start to lose all meaning. I'd say it shouldn't go any longer than the Battle at Helm's Deep.
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AncalagontheBlack
Rohan
Nov 5 2013, 4:27pm
Post #16 of 28
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The final fight scene of the Avengers was 40 minutes. That is probably a maximum example.
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Oin K
Rivendell
Nov 5 2013, 6:33pm
Post #17 of 28
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Unless his capture is deliberate
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If Gandalf thinks the only way to learn the truth of what's going on at Dol Guldur is to get himself caught and brought straight to the center of it, then that would make him a total BAMF - especially if he knows that Radagast, Galadriel, Saruman, and anyone else they count among the forces of the White Council Avengers (Glorfindel, this is your opportunity to show yourself!) are on their way.
It doesn't count as them rescuing him if he planned for that to happen all along.
"The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their snouts were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a snoutless Dwarf - unless he were rhinoplasted in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have snouts from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike..." (History of Middle Earth, volume 11, The War of the Truffles, p. 205)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Nov 5 2013, 6:48pm
Post #18 of 28
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Isn't it just *as likely* that the shot of Gandalf, with a bloodied wound, behind bars, is simply a shot of Gandalf, with a bloodied wound, behind bars.
There's nothing to suggest he actually gets captured and/or imprisoned at all ...
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Cillendor
Lorien
Nov 5 2013, 8:20pm
Post #19 of 28
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I'm still waiting for someone to come along and edit that scene so that it's a standoff until the Witch King hears the trumpets of Rohan. Someone did it just for that scene and posted it on YouTube, but it's in German. I have no idea how to edit video footage to do it myself. I love the rest of ROTK:EE, but that one scene is horrible.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 8:43pm
Post #20 of 28
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That doesn't change what his strength would be. He grew after he fell as a result of
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being sent back to Middle-Earth as the chief of his order, chief emmissary of Eru and THe Valar in Middle-Earth, and with more laxity in how much of his native strength he was allowed to reveal.
The Nazgul were not superior to Gandalf the Gray. Had they been so, the would have captured him when all Nine of them surrounded him and besieged him for the entirety of the night on Amon Sul.
Aside from that, one really cannot say what Gandalf faced. Probably alot in 2,000 years of travelling everywhere from Angmar to Erebor to Near Harad and most points inbetween. When he said of the door opening sorcery of The Balrog, "I have never felt such a challenge," he clearly meant a challange of magic and sorcery. And it would have been a silly thing to say had he never encountered sorcery against himself before. Granted, by this point, definitely Saruman and The Nine had been encountered. Still, there is NO reason the Nazgul should best him in Dol Guldur. Sauron, certainly, but not the RingWraiths. And even then, he needs to escape mostly on his own, not have to be rescued by the whole council. He is the one who is supposed to alert him, not be made to look like a courageous fool who got in way over his head and couldn't get out again to achieve what his original goal was. This isn't the same Gandalf we see in FOTR. THIS Gandalf never faced an superior enemy as strong as a Nazgūl, Saruman, the Balrog or even Sauron.
This time it will be his first confrontation with a greater force and that's why he is that nervous and needs more courage (not just Bilbo needs it). He fears Sauron and I think that's why he was chosen for his mission. He will be defeated at first but he will grow on his defeat. Just as he did after he fell in FOTR.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 8:45pm
Post #21 of 28
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So glad that scene was EE only. The witch king breaking gandalf's staff at the siege of Minas Tirith really did a disservice to his character. I for one hope Gandalf is not man handled in Dol Guldor.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 8:57pm
Post #22 of 28
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Yes to Glorfindel, but to the capture...ehhh. I don't think you can just allow for that when
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Dealing with Sauron... If Gandalf thinks the only way to learn the truth of what's going on at Dol Guldur is to get himself caught and brought straight to the center of it, then that would make him a total BAMF - especially if he knows that Radagast, Galadriel, Saruman, and anyone else they count among the forces of the White Council Avengers (Glorfindel, this is your opportunity to show yourself!) are on their way.
It doesn't count as them rescuing him if he planned for that to happen all along.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 9:06pm
Post #23 of 28
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I think you are being sarcastic. lol. If not, I HOPE you are right, but I rather doubt it.
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That shot does not lend itself to many other interpretations besides, "sht, I am trapped and in trouble,". And if that is so it is a HORRIBLE alteration. The scene is supposed to show, if we adhere to the awesome example of the text, how dreadfully powerful Sauron is but also how resourceful and awesome in a tight corner Gandalf can be. He goes into the very lair of Sauron and escapes, but even Gandalf only barely escapes and has to hasten out of there to warn the Council of THe Wise.
Having him actually captured . Again, it leave an implication that he cannot handle himself when confronted with any Dark Power, especially if they have the Nazgul defeat him (God I hope not). Isn't it just *as likely* that the shot of Gandalf, with a bloodied wound, behind bars, is simply a shot of Gandalf, with a bloodied wound, behind bars. There's nothing to suggest he actually gets captured and/or imprisoned at all ...
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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DanielLB
Immortal
Nov 5 2013, 9:26pm
Post #24 of 28
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It wasn't intentionally supposed to be sarcastic. ;-)
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Though ... if you're looking for sarcasm ... the shot is only 1 second long. Can we really deduce anything from it? We could do the same with Thorin pointing the sword at Bilbo, and saying he's going to stab him to death.
Both are likely, from very short clips.
  
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Olorin2607
Lorien
Nov 5 2013, 9:32pm
Post #25 of 28
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Yeah..I strongly hope that he will be captured by Sauron himself as well. Anything else except perhaps him against all 9 (in the book I think he did not fight them all at weathertop did he?) would be ridiculous.
But I most certainly also fear for the whole DG Plot to become an utter mess. I was not too happy about their ideas there in general. (Nazgul tombs!??) And even if the plot itself is good, it might get poorly executed like that scene in AUJ where Raddy explores DG.
The effects were godawful ( I have never seen such a bad ghost/spirit.. the ones in LOTR were better; Sauron was also very underwhelming) and it was not very convincing having Raddy fight off the Witch-King/Khamul with two swings of his staff and without any magic.
So let us hope the whole thing will get more sinister and thrilling in DOS and TABA. The newest trailer gives hope...
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BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell
Nov 5 2013, 9:45pm
Post #26 of 28
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Ok, my thoughts on what we know so far....
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From what we have gathered from the blogs, trailers, clips and lego sets etc, this is my theory on the Dol Guldur Subplot.
- Somewhere in the movie, Beorn and/or the beornings will be connected to Dol Guldur, (known by the "Dol Guldur Ambush" set). Perhaps Bolg/Azog is responsible for the eradication of Beorns kin. Possibly part of a prolouge or early in the film.
- Early in the film, Gandalf will visit The High Fells with Radagast (cue sneak peek scene), this will lead to them heading to Dol Guldur.
- Gandalf and Radagast enter Dol Guldur, then at some point Radagast leaves - either to warn the council or otherwise. Latest blog suggests Gandalf telling Radagast to "leave now", furthermore Gandalf seems alone there - shot of gandalf walking across bridge, being led through Dol Guldur by Thrain, running and twisting his staff etc.
- Gandalf is incapacitated somehow - hopefully by the necromancer and nothing less powerful - he is imprisoned in the fortress, (shot in the latest sneak peek behind bars). Possible torture by the Necromancer? Sauron realizing his presence is revealed sends forth his army - shot of army marching from DG? END OF DOS
- TABA begins with the Council, informed by Radagast coming to rescue him/drive out Sauron. Galadriel "ragdoll moment"? Battle of Dol Guldur commences.
Thoughts? Most of this is just speculation based on what we've glimpsed at remember...
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 11:13pm
Post #27 of 28
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It is different. For one thing, we know Bilbo lives. But also, we can very easily assume
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Thorin is only threatening Bilbo. Sir Ian looks like he is in a damned cage in this scene. It does not look at all like he is leaning against the bars of someone else's cage, nor does it look like he has come to a gated pass and is just resting up while preparing to blast it open. He looks SUNK. Now, maybe, hopefully, if he is caged he will call upon the strength of that inner Holy Spirit, and in the mode of Finrod Felagund wrest the cage apart and free himself... but otherwise..... mmmmmm I don't know, Daniel. Though ... if you're looking for sarcasm ... the shot is only 1 second long. Can we really deduce anything from it? We could do the same with Thorin pointing the sword at Bilbo, and saying he's going to stab him to death. Both are likely, from very short clips.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Nov 5 2013, 11:40pm
Post #28 of 28
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Yes, he did fight the Nine, from dusk until dawn, and it was seen afar as lightning that leaped
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from the hilltop.
And I have VERY much been hoping they would take the main elements of that scene and place them in Dol Guldur.
I share your fears.
I didn't mind the Radagast scene so much. I wish the fight had lasted a few seconds longer, and that the decisive strike from Radagast had included some small reaction of light or force to make clear that his power was factoring in. However, I did note that his staff does strike The Witch-King's face, so at least the dispersal has some weight. Yeah..I strongly hope that he will be captured by Sauron himself as well. Anything else except perhaps him against all 9 (in the book I think he did not fight them all at weathertop did he?) would be ridiculous. But I most certainly also fear for the whole DG Plot to become an utter mess. I was not too happy about their ideas there in general. (Nazgul tombs!?? ) And even if the plot itself is good, it might get poorly executed like that scene in AUJ where Raddy explores DG. The effects were godawful ( I have never seen such a bad ghost/spirit.. the ones in LOTR were better; Sauron was also very underwhelming) and it was not very convincing having Raddy fight off the Witch-King/Khamul with two swings of his staff and without any magic. So let us hope the whole thing will get more sinister and thrilling in DOS and TABA. The newest trailer gives hope...
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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