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Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 28 2013, 1:55am
Post #26 of 108
(890 views)
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"female energy" is not a reason why women enjoy movies
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I cannot speak for all women but this is what I noticed - in movies/books with a central female characters, biggest draw for women is a male love interest. Titanic and Twilight aren't big because of Rose and Bella but because of Jack and Edward. Heck, I've met more women who absolutely hated female character and felt about her as a romantic rival (translation: wanted to claw her face!) than those who identified with her. Some of the most hated female characters are without doubt Kate Austen (Lost), Elizabeth Swann (POTC) and Bella (Twilight). Reason? They got men female fans wanted for themselves!
I admit I'm guilty of the same so maybe that's a typical female viewer trait. Granted, all those hated female characters were also awfully annoying Mary Sues so hate was justified. However, it does seem that female viewers enjoy movies in a different way then men. I've never heard of men treating male characters as (romantic) rivals while this is very typical of female viewership when it comes to female characters. I'd say women are more possessive fans. Tumblr is a prime example how female fans found a way to deal with insufferable fictional female rival issue - pair male characters, ship them and no more stress. Sherlock and John belong together. Whatever female tries to butt in, fans know she means nothing. For he and he are one true pairing. Cue millions of fanfics. Heck, the whole fanfiction phenom is really dealing with insufferable fictional female rival. In fanfiction, you can pair your fictional crush with your self-insert (and suffer the Internet wraith) or another male character (and enjoy Internet approval). So from latter POV, LOTR was highly successful. Can't deal with Arwen? There's Legorn (portmanteau for Legolas/Aragorn pairing). By far most popular LOTR ship. 
So my point is that if you write a female character who is your Mary Sue (idealized self-insert), she is very likely going to misfire with broad female viewership because they'll sniff out the Sue and won't relate to her. In fact, they'll hate her guts.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Sep 28 2013, 1:57am)
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Starling
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 1:59am
Post #27 of 108
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Or maybe I speak a different language.
Because I do not understand this post at all.
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Elskidor
Rohan
Sep 28 2013, 2:21am
Post #28 of 108
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I'm a guy and hated Kate from LOST because she made no sense to me at all
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About this movie in particular, my wife did not care for The Hobbit, but loves LoTR. I am dragging her along to DoS and she agreed to give AUJ a second try. She has never read the books though.
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IdrilofGondolin
Rohan
Sep 28 2013, 2:27am
Post #29 of 108
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and it may be a little off topic -- The Daryl Zanuck Theory. Girls will go see movies boys will see, but boys won't go to movies girls will see. That's why most movies are geared to 19 year old boys. So that is why there are more movies with lots of male characters and few good female characters. Since girls will go anyway there is no need for "female energy" in the film.
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Magpie
Immortal
Sep 28 2013, 2:51am
Post #31 of 108
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I don't think I've ever evaluated or rated a movie - in terms of liking it or not - by amounts of feminine energy.
I don't see LOTR or TH as a male or female sort of story and I know lots of women who like the stories and the films.
What draws us to Tolkien is something much deeper than anything one would (or should) label masculine or feminine. It's about life, friendship, perseverance, survival and wounds too deep. It's about stepping out our door for adventures. It's about finding quiet humor in trying times. It's about seeing the world that is bigger than our own sorrows and trails. It's about faith and help unlooked for. It's about mystery and myth. It's about taking time to say the things that are worth talking about. It's about pain and delight. It's about being inside a song. It's about tears of blessedness.
Those things are not within the purview of one gender. Nor one age. Nor one nation or culture. Nor one level of education, social, or economic status.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Olessan
Bree
Sep 28 2013, 3:42am
Post #33 of 108
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Making a narrow assumption for such a wide group. It's just that you personally don't know any women that are interested in it. I don't think that undertone was intentional though.
It'd be like me saying, "My brothers aren't interested in sport. They don't like it, so clearly every other man dislikes it too. Those guys that squeal at football games are in the rare minority." or , "Everyone in X country likes to Y." It's a preposterous blanket.
A good 75%+ of the Tolkien fans I know and know of are female, and every time I've seen one of the films at the cinema the gender of audience members has been quite dominantly female as well (for AUJ, I saw it twice on premiere day and again in the weeks following).
In AUJ, there is basically nothing for a female to relate to. All we've really got is Bilbo. Bilbo is however easily relatable for a lot of people, even more so in AUJ. In the book, kind of.
Most of the dwarves are indeed vulgar and unlikeable, but that's a given -- they're dwarves. I imagine the only people who could relate with the dwarves properly are those with similarly poor conduct. I suppose there are also people who could relate to the dwarves' loss of a sense of home, and etc.
I personally relate to Bilbo, and know that the more I can relate to a character, the more I care about them. If the story is bad and the characters shallow, I won't be interested in a movie. Same goes for other genres, for example sci-fi which usually has some fairly stupid storylines and weak characterization. Can't pass up the good stuff though.
When I read the Hobbit, I can't relate to any of the dwarves and so I see them as mostly disposable and flat. They blur together since Tolkien describes them all as being samey (short old bearded men -- boring) with the main differences being clothing and hair colour. I actually find that, in the books, Bard and the Elvenking are both infinitely more interesting than the dwarves. Smaug is even more interesting, probably up there with Bilbo or exceeding him.
I'm female and the biggest fan of The Hobbit, LotR AND fantasy in general, that I know personally and within my social sphere. At least half the males I know in fact are completely disinterested in it despite my attempts to lure them into the fandom. The only male Tolkien fans I know who are as into it as I am are those I know through the internet.
Don't know what you mean by 'female energy' though. Phillipa and Fran Walsh both work on the Hobbit films alongside PJ just like they did with the LotR films.
I think it's just that you don't know a lot of female fans/don't have many in your particular area.
On a lighter note, after all the great things about LotR (films and books) which need no mention, one last thing was quite a few of the characters had the added benefit of being easy on the eyes. That's a minor factor, though. It's all about a good story and deep characters. Aragorn and Faramir, for example, are my favourites, but not because of their looks as a lot of people stupidly assume. I like their story arcs and how they develop, and how they're built as characters overall.
(This post was edited by Olessan on Sep 28 2013, 3:46am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 4:14am
Post #34 of 108
(807 views)
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And Welcome to TORn!
That's a great story.
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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Starling
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 4:40am
Post #35 of 108
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Can you explain why she made no sense to you?
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I'm just curious.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 5:55am
Post #36 of 108
(786 views)
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Bomby likes to think of all these Books & Movies as...
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about WAR!
TH is about War with a Dragon,
First and Fore Most.
LOTR is about War with EVIL
that would destroy their World.
"And cover all the world in Darkness.."
And Yes, Tolkien did concentrate on his
Soldiers in both Both Wars.
What PJ added to great effect
was these consequenes to the Female members
especially at Helm's Deep.
His intercutting to the refugees
in the Glittering Caves
was perfect ...
at least to Bomby & Goldberry at that time.
The Fully fleshed-out story of Aragorn & Arwen
did what it needed to..
so Badly,
from a
Romance angle.
Her Fate tired to
The Fate of The Ring?
Fantastic!
Yes, Aragorn got the Girl
and was King of Gondor
for WHAT?
another 200 years!
Most soldiers are IN any War
to try to keep their Girls Safe.
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 28 2013, 5:56am
Post #37 of 108
(775 views)
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I'm female and I love this movie, LOTR movies and other fantasy and sci-fi movies. I have several female friends and family who do too. It really bugs me when critics or others say females don't like these kind of movies. To me, it's a sweeping generalization based on a small sample (no offense to you or your family). Sorry if this comes across a bit harsh, you can probably tell this is is a bit of a hot button for me. :-)
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 28 2013, 5:57am
Post #38 of 108
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Kim
Valinor
Sep 28 2013, 5:59am
Post #39 of 108
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ooh, I like this one even better :-) //
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 28 2013, 6:16am
Post #40 of 108
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Don't worry about not understanding that post. I'm more worried that I do! It's referring to a sort of fan obsession that doesn't really show up on these boards, but is rampant in certain fandoms and other sites.
Picture the screaming, fainting hordes of Beatles or Elvis groupies in their heyday, and then transfer that sort of intensity to a fictional character. Basically, some fangirls become stalkerishly possessive over their fantasy love interest to the point where they are vicious to anyone who gets in the way, whether fellow fans or other fictional characters. And yes, it tends to be every bit as disturbing as that sounds. Just recently, I saw that a certain celebrity was revealed to be dating someone other than their love interest on their TV show, and was inundated with abusive tweets and tumblr posts from fans who acted like this person was two-timing their co-star - and all of this for no other reason than these fans had decided that because their fictional characters were such a great pair the real life people must be as well. Apparently some people have lost the concept of fiction. It's a weird world out there. 
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Starling
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 6:19am
Post #41 of 108
(816 views)
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So you are telling me that Thorin is not a real person?
Don't be ridiculous.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 28 2013, 7:19am
Post #42 of 108
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Yes, Starling, there is a Thorin.
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He exists as certainly as pride and majesty and amazing hair exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its greatest squeeing and joy. Alas! How dreary would be the world if there were no Thorin. It would be as dreary as if there were no Starlings. There would be no giddy fangirling then, no poetic parodies, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which fandom fills the world would be extinguished. Not believe in Thorin! You might as well not believe in Elves!
Silverlode
"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2013, 7:43am
Post #43 of 108
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I was about to post the same thing. It's the fact that Tauriel is the token female guard that gets me. Why not have every, I don't know...5th Elven guard a female if you are trying to show that it's not that unusual for a female Elf to be a soldier? It's the giving of Tauriel a prominent talking role that makes her look shoe-horned in as a token gesture to this "feminine energy" they suppose that women viewers need. I for one certainly don't! 
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Sep 28 2013, 7:47am)
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Thranderz
Rohan
Sep 28 2013, 7:59am
Post #44 of 108
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I certainly wasn't being sexist. I was just asking everyone else on the board for their thoughts on female fans and characters!
I simply walked into Mordor.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 8:43am
Post #45 of 108
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Speak for yourself - or at least, your girlfriend! ;-)
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I'm female, am really enjoying the unrolling of these films as I did the previous ones, and it seems to me that lots of posters here are also female, and are sharing the enjoyment in their very different and individual ways.
Hang it, I've been reading and re-reading the books since I was eight years old, so I don't need anyone to make the stories acceptable to me. As far as 'feminine energy' goes, it's not a phrase
I would ever use, but since we seem to be stuck with it now, I'll go along with it. When I read The Hobbit as a child I don't think I even noticed that all the characters were male. If I had I wouldn't have minded, because I passionately wanted to be a boy. It seemed to go without saying, to me, that boys had all the best stories and got to do the most exciting things. But first and foremost, I just loved the story. Same with LotR, which I came to at about thirteen. It took me somewhere I'd never been, opened a world more beautiful than anything I'd imagined, and I fell in love with it and stayed there. I remember waiting for the Silmarillion, and how desperate it seemed when Tolkien died because maybe those stories would never see print. (Sad too for other reasons of course.)
We're all different. I have female and male friends who love the books, female and male friends who can't see the point of them. But as a woman I would say that in Tolkien's writing as a whole there is a real 'feminine energy', in the female characters he created and the roles he gave to them. It doesn't appear in The Hobbit, but I don't see its insertion into the film by the writing team as a deviation from Tolkien. It would have been wrong, for example, to show the White Council without Galadriel, and odd not to show it at all, since it does play a behind the scenes part in the story. The book is fine as it is, the film will be better for the representation of a few females. And remember that Philippa Boyens is only one member of a writing team, and the ultimate choices are Peter Jackson's.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 8:48am
Post #46 of 108
(750 views)
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Mods up! 1,000 times mods up!! //
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One of the best posts I've ever read here!
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 8:51am
Post #47 of 108
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This is not a typical female viewer trait - honest. There's a lot in your second paragraph I don't even understand.
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Starling
Half-elven
Sep 28 2013, 9:15am
Post #48 of 108
(771 views)
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I had to do some research in order to fully comprehend the brilliance of your reply. 
I like this girl. She looks tough. She's got feminine energy! (Note my clever link back to the topic at hand).
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demnation
Rohan
Sep 28 2013, 9:37am
Post #49 of 108
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I'd say that Tolkien fandom is much more evenly split than most. Of course, I have no real evidence for this.
"In the beginning the Universe was created.This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Sep 28 2013, 10:02am
Post #50 of 108
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So, as long as we believe in Thorin with all our might,
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and if I promise not to be naughty, will he visit my house on Christmas Eve with a sackful of...toys?
ROFL at your post, Silverlode. That was priceless.
And now I've got this stuck in my head, to the tune of "Here Comes Santa Claus" and sung as the Dwarves charge out of Erebor during the BO5A:
"Here comes Thorin, here comes Thorin,
Right out of Erebor!
He's got a sword that's gleaming bright and
Ready for battle again!
See that armour shining brightly
Oh what a beautiful sight!"
But then I get pretty sidetracked at the next line, about jumping in bed...
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Good for you Mikah!
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