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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 10 2013, 11:28pm
Post #1 of 31
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Certainly Gandalf needs to display power-magic in Dol Guldur. But how? Let the books be your guide, filmcrew!
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It is, as some of you know, a topic of import to me. How shall Gandalf acquit himself in Dol Guldur? Recent reports have the rumour and speculation stirring, and some worries as well. I am not entertaining the argument that Gandalf should fail to display powers. His abilities as a Wizard and Power don't make him any less of a Wise sage, and seeing him in action only confirms that there is MORE to him than that, it does not erase his words or scenes of wisdom.
I think it is essential that the balance between Dol Guldur being a creepy place, where we would NEVER want to end up, and where we fear for even Gandalf, AND, the firm presentation that Gandalf can handle himself better than virtually any other adventurer in Middle-Earth, be well achieved. That the Wizard perform feats of power in what will be one of the most severe spots of peril during his time as Gandalf should go without saying. He has to escape, with news of what he has seen, and there is no one for him to need to avoid overaweing. . . only his enemies and his need to get out of their inner sanctum.
What type magic will he perform? There are the rumours we have heard. . . and there are the novels. I desprately hope the film crew will have combed the novels for details, and that the powers he displays in the books are the ones they bring to bear here (you know I am hoping for that Amon Sul style showdown with The Nazgul Lords).
What do we KNOW Gandalf can do? We know he can effect the shapes and the intensity of fluid things like fire, smoke and water. Yes, WATER. Quiet as it is kept, Arwen's great flood sequence, one of the most impressive and iconic pieces of magic in the entire film series and in movie history, was actually not her doing at all. It was Elrond who released the river, and it was Gandalf who caused the waves to take on the likeness of stampeding horses. In the movies thus far, he has already done something similar (on a much smaller scale) with a smoke ring turned butterfly. I think it could be amazing if we see him use this ability in some form with fire (his trademark BLUE it is to be hoped) in Dol Guldur.
Mention of blue fire brings me to point two. We know, from the novels, that he is espcially proficient with fire enchantments, often changing their hue and inducing explosions (one of the companion books for An Unexpected credits him with this ability, and it is the one which features Thranduil and was printed up prior to the decision to make three films, so it may be that it is an allusion to things we will see in Desolation-Smaug).
We know, from the books and one scene in the movies, that he has power to command lightning, even without his staff in certain instances.
We know that the Nazgul detest flame and water, and most likely lightning as well.
As to the possiblility of dopplegangers. . . this was an unexpected one. It could be tacky, or it could be well handled. There is precedent for it among the Wizards. Though Gandalf is not seen to use it in the text, Saruman does, sending a phantasm of himself to startle and spy upon Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli, so that isn't entirely out of left field.
In the end, I hope to see something very impressive. Not overblown, but significant. Something to keep us from shaking our heads in shame for the Wizard when Galadriel blows Dol Guldur off the hilltop.  
Follow the novels and you cannot go wrong. These are inalienable and inarguable aspects of who Gandalf is, and how is magic manifests. As it is written, so let it also be shown.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 10 2013, 11:30pm)
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Arandir
Gondor
Sep 11 2013, 6:59am
Post #2 of 31
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especially with the Gandalf vs Nazgul moment. The idea that Gandalf is beyond mortals and a higher power, needs to be reinforced.
What I'm worried about is whether the filmmakers will "restrain" themselves from showing a powerful Gandalf due to the mishap between the Wizard and the Witch-King in the Extended ROTK - which might create a discrepancy of character across the two trilogies ...
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 11 2013, 7:53am
Post #3 of 31
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That is a fear, but I certainly hope they won't make that mistake. Two things play in favour of them doing the right thing
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first, that event only happened in Extendeds and is not part of what anyone saw in theatres. Also, and perhaps even more essentially, Sauon is not as strong here and neither are his servants. If the abhorrent EER scene is to be taken as a waxing Sauron channeling power into The Witch-King, it can simply be a matter of neither being so potent here.
Anyway, there already exists the major discrepancy of Aragorn beating back the Witch King plus four. If Aragorn can do it, Gandalf can do it better. lol especially with the Gandalf vs Nazgul moment. The idea that Gandalf is beyond mortals and a higher power, needs to be reinforced.
What I'm worried about is whether the filmmakers will "restrain" themselves from showing a powerful Gandalf due to the mishap between the Wizard and the Witch-King in the Extended ROTK - which might create a discrepancy of character across the two trilogies ...
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 11 2013, 8:01am
Post #4 of 31
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# 2 of this list completely nails it on EVERY level.
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http://whatculture.com/...-see-on-screen.php/4
"2. Gandalf Battles Ringwraiths On Weathertop
From: The Fellowship of the Ring
In the film:
Frodo and his Hobbit friends meet the mysterious guy Strider (Aragorn) in a Bree bar and head out on the road with him. At dusk on the second day, Aragorn suggests they rest for a night at a fortified hill called Weathertop.
In the book:
Just like the journey to Bree, the road to Weathertop has a bit more detail. They still camp there in the book, but the night before reaching it, Aragorn and the Hobbits look out toward Weathertop and see flashing lights. From Tolkien:
“What is that light?” he [Frodo] said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.
“I do not know,” Strider answered. “It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops.”
Frodo lay down again, but for a long while he could still see the white flashes, and against them the tall dark figure of Strider, standing silent and watchful.
The company later mentions these flashes to Gandalf, who states that what they saw was his epic battle with the Ringwraiths."
Read more at http://whatculture.com/...#srVe6QBEGGflqQ6m.99
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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burgahobbit
Rohan
Sep 11 2013, 11:00am
Post #5 of 31
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Radagast didn't have a problem in his little skirmish with the Witch-king in AUJ (unless that was Khamul as some suggest). The idea of including the Nazgul vs. Gandalf scene is great! I really hope that they do it. I just hope that the Nazgul get some cloaks or armor or something so they start to appear more like they did in LOTR and less like phantoms which they were never supposed to be in the first place. I wouldn't expect the "Black Rider" look as that seemed to be something new for LOTR (i.e. Saruman's "They are disguised as riders in black"), but something similar would be cool. Perhaps a hooded cape that covers their backs and side, but from the front they are still Phantoms. Phantoms growing ever dimmer throughout the films due to the corruption of the rings. By the end of the Trilogy, you can only see floating capes where e're the Nazgul stand.
Then in LOTR you see the same thing only they have mor complete cloaks. And I guess through this same ring corruption they could lose their ability to enter statues and disappear into thin air. 
"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.
"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.
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sycorax82
Rohan
Sep 11 2013, 6:22pm
Post #7 of 31
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I wish they would reshoot the Witch-King confrontation
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Peter missed a real trick with that scene and it's no wonder it didn't make it into the theatrical cut. I would love to see it at least re-edited in some way, especially now there's a chance that they will meet in DoS.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 11 2013, 10:15pm
Post #8 of 31
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Definitely, Burgahobbit and Sycoraxa82. I thought it fitting and proper that Radagast
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held his own against a single Wraith, even if it was The Chief. He is one of the Istari, an Ainur even in his diminished disguise. And, of course, Gandalf is the mightier Wizard, higer in both Valinorean and Istari status than his kinsspirit Radagast. And, its majority agreement that the way the EERTK scenes was handled was a big mistake. It was the desire for heightened tension gone too far. Tolkien already made plain that the returned Gandalf was mightier than all The Nine together. He was the reincarnate emissary of Eru and The Valar, mighty even in a limited form. He had also, in a less powerful incarnation, defeated a Balrog. Tolkien himself confirmed that The Balrog would have been second only to Sauron amongst the Evil Powers that remained in The Third Age. Which only makes sense. The Demon was also a Maiar, whilst the Nazgul were but phantom-shades of human men, enhanced by a fraction of the power of Sauron via their Rings. The Nazgul were averse to High Elves. The Balrog was one of those "Old Powers of Darkness, strong . . . " that are mentioned in The Two Towers. One of those who did not fear Elves of any calibur, and who had paid no heed to their calls of prayer to The Valar in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings in Nargothrond.The Balrogs had been present and active in the creation of The World, and had aided the works of Melkor for Millennia ere the first of the Elves had even awaken. How could any Nazgul ever compare to that, really?
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 11 2013, 10:17pm)
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2013, 3:18am
Post #10 of 31
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i still missed how in the book when Gandalf showed up in...
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goblin town he turned everything pitch black and shot those sparks into the goblins, i mean that would have been so amazing to see in live-action but i understand since they redesigned goblin town that wouldn't have worked. Hopefully they will show that kind of "power, magic" in DOS when Gandalf is in Dol-Guldur.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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Yngwulff
Gondor
Sep 12 2013, 3:48am
Post #11 of 31
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Do you think Gandalf can out magic Sauron? His minions to be sure, but Sauron?
However if you add Elrond Galadriel Saruman Radaghast and Glorfindel, well maybe as a group they can ...
“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 12 2013, 4:01am
Post #12 of 31
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I really missed that too, HOWEVER, after the how many of Gandalf's displays of power were either
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removed from the Rings films, or attributed to others, or else tamped down in their presentation, I was really just glad that the gyst of the scene remained the same, and that it was as impressive as it was. It wasn't perfect, but it was still a really great, and iconic film moment, and it was still an impressive display of power.
And YES, I so hope for something like that in Dol Guldur. goblin town he turned everything pitch black and shot those sparks into the goblins, i mean that would have been so amazing to see in live-action but i understand since they redesigned goblin town that wouldn't have worked. Hopefully they will show that kind of "power, magic" in DOS when Gandalf is in Dol-Guldur.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 12 2013, 4:09am
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No, however Sauron almost surely would not be the first wave of confrontation (and, yes please to Glorfindel in the full assault . .. SURVIVING in a hero Elf role!)
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Sauron (as happened with Radagast) would/should only show up when the greatest of his minions have been defeated. The Witch-King was lying in ambush to send Radagast back into The World of Spirits, but the old Wizard was ready for him, and put staff in his a. . . in his butt! Then Sauron revealed himself and gave a chase of sorts.
Gandalf is coming to confirm Sauron's presence. Sauron does not want to reveal it. Minions would be the order of the day. Starting with common things like orcs. If they fail, Nazgul (and here is where I am hoping for a REAL display of fire, light and power) would try to detain him. Only when all of these fail would Sauron reveal himself, with the intent of making certain that his enemy does not get back to expose him and his plans. . . and Gandalf, knowing when to fold em and when to walk away, might then escape with Radagast, who may have seen the conflagration of combat from a ways off, just as Aragorn and Frodo see the signs of the battle between Wizard and Wraith Lords in the novel. Do you think Gandalf can out magic Sauron? His minions to be sure, but Sauron?
However if you add Elrond Galadriel Saruman Radaghast and Glorfindel, well maybe as a group they can ...
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 12 2013, 4:10am)
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2013, 4:13am
Post #14 of 31
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i mean he still showed up and "kicked butt" with his shock wave thingy i guess. In the book when Gandalf appears it just reads 'awesome'!  I'm still a little mad that Glamdring doesn't glow or Orcrist. I like the approach they took with Sting, rather than trying to make Sting glow using cgi they had Martin Freeman run around with a glowing light stick and they replaced the light with a sword in post production, great mixture of computer and real effects.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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cats16
Half-elven
Sep 12 2013, 4:16am
Post #15 of 31
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We might even see the "lightning show" from afar. Given the geography changes, I wonder if there is any chance of the Company/Wood Elves/Lothlorien elves seeing this on the horizon/in the distance. Not meaning I want any of it, but whether it's plausible within the film universe we've been shown so far.
(Just imagined Bilbo seeing this as he looks out atop the trees in Mirkwood, oops... Don't worry, I know it's not happening--nor do I want it to.)
Anyway, I'm hoping your thoughts come to pass. (Also on board with your other thoughts on the Balrog and Balin's quest back to Moria.)
(This post was edited by cats16 on Sep 12 2013, 4:17am)
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Old Pilgrim
Rivendell
Sep 12 2013, 5:28am
Post #16 of 31
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but I am not certain that he will display a lot of his magic in Dol Guldur, at least not when he is alone. Perhaps I am wrong but we have twi things that confirm this;
- even in books Gandalf rarely displays his power as his main task is to help peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron and his minions. He is doing that by encourage them, giving them hope and focus them on the right path rather then using full power to fight enemy directly. Though many objected the fact that Gandalf showed so little magic in LOTR I think filmakers were true to the books in that case and I approve that. The only greatest error was his confrotation with the Witch King in EE which shouldn't be included in the film at all but then again maybe Gandal would still fight the Witch King if the Rohirrim wouldn't arrive.
- as I already pointed out Peter Jackson and his team didn't show much of Gandalf's magic until now. His powers are always display rather subtile, he is fighting with his staff and sword rather than using magic and I doubt that they will change this. Again we see Gandalf fighting Thrain with his staff in Dol Guldur so unless he will be in great danger he won't do great lightening shows.
Also don't forget that he is only investigating and he should do that subtle and without making great mess. However attack of the White Council on Dol Guldur is another matter as their main goal is to defeat Sauron and therefore a lot of magic should be presented on that attack, even from Gandalf.
(This post was edited by Old Pilgrim on Sep 12 2013, 5:30am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 12 2013, 7:46am
Post #17 of 31
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It is the books being quoted. Yes he encouraged, with wisdom, and his kind Spirit, and was aided by the healing power of The Red Ring, but make no mistake
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Sam wasn't talking like a fool when he said, "Whatever may be in store for old Gandalf, I'll wager it isn't the wolf's belly. . . What did I tell you Mr. Pippin! Wolves won't get him! THat was an eye opener and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head he did!"
THAT is something the filmakers took out entirely though they left the line. It isn't really true that the Rings films were entirely faithful to his magic and his behaviour in the books, nor entirely honest in their depiction. Certainly he was not constantly showing out in displays of power, and he did not violate his trust to avoid using force and fear to cow Elves, Men and the other free folk into following his will. . . but, both for the delight of others, and when pressed into a tight corner, he could and would show significant power. The Rings films deleted a number of scenes in which he put forth some fraction of his power, and others of his feats they attributed to others instead (see Arwen's horsewaves). An Unexpected Journey was actually much more true to that aspect of him than were the films of The Ring Lord trilogy.
This is going to be one of his great tests. It is ESSENTIAL, not just for showing his power but also for showing the danger of the power in Dol Guldur, that he be shown putting forth significant power in securing his escape. This is a place of UTTER Dread. If he escapes using no more than those abilities which would be available to a Legolas, Aragorn or Thorin, it becomes hard to take the place seriously as a dire menace inhabited by a host of dread Powers. It needs to be clear that this is the sort of place only the likes of a Wizard, a true Power like Gandalf (vieled though he often is) has a chance of getting out of.
Also. . . the loss of his confrontation with The Nine is one of the biggest missed opportunities in Film History, from a purely scenic, dramatic and iconic perspective. Someone just made a thread about what the most iconic scenes were. . . well, I can garauntee that a scene of Gandalf revealing an amount of his power to fend off The Nine would easily rank as one of the most iconic moments of all SIX films, if properly handled.
And, again, that is a lift STRAIGHT out of the books, in which, in a tight pinch, confronted by the chief servants of Sauron who doubtless hoped to capture or end his incarnation, if they could manage it, and wherein he put forth his power in an astounding display and held them back from the dusk until the dawn. Let us not cherry pick the book. Encouragement and sage, wise advice were KEY, FUNDEMENTAL aspects of Gandalf. . . but so too was the fact that he was a Power and a serious danger to his foes, who "could not do everything, but. . . could do a great deal for friends in a tight corner." He could also do a great deal for himself.
Whether on Amon Sul, or in Dol Guldur, he wouldn't merely stand around and allow his enemies to take him. Sauron will become aware that he is in Dol Guldur, and why, and he will pull out the stops in trying to stop him, first hoping not to have to reveal himself, but when all else fails. . . and Gandalf knows he HAS to get out and back to the council, else Sauron's plans will go unchallanged until ripe. He will put forth what power is necessary to escape. A sword alone is not going to get it in the bowels of that Hill of Sorcery. .. if it were, Beornings and Dwarf Lords (and probably more than one or two Elves and men) wouldn't end up as prisoners there.
IF these movies are to be at all true to the way things are handled in the novels, Gandalf in Dol Guldur will be much more akin to Gandalf on Amon Sul, than to Gandalf during the troll attack in Moria (to be fair, in the films, he knows a great Demon of vast socerous, spiritual and phyisical power is lairing within those halls, and would want to conserve his abilities for the event of that truest trial). but I am not certain that he will display a lot of his magic in Dol Guldur, at least not when he is alone. Perhaps I am wrong but we have twi things that confirm this;
- even in books Gandalf rarely displays his power as his main task is to help peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron and his minions. He is doing that by encourage them, giving them hope and focus them on the right path rather then using full power to fight enemy directly. Though many objected the fact that Gandalf showed so little magic in LOTR I think filmakers were true to the books in that case and I approve that. The only greatest error was his confrotation with the Witch King in EE which shouldn't be included in the film at all but then again maybe Gandal would still fight the Witch King if the Rohirrim wouldn't arrive.
- as I already pointed out Peter Jackson and his team didn't show much of Gandalf's magic until now. His powers are always display rather subtile, he is fighting with his staff and sword rather than using magic and I doubt that they will change this. Again we see Gandalf fighting Thrain with his staff in Dol Guldur so unless he will be in great danger he won't do great lightening shows.
Also don't forget that he is only investigating and he should do that subtle and without making great mess. However attack of the White Council on Dol Guldur is another matter as their main goal is to defeat Sauron and therefore a lot of magic should be presented on that attack, even from Gandalf.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 12 2013, 7:53am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2013, 11:56am
Post #18 of 31
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It is actually Saruman whose arts mostly Dol Guldor is destroyed! Perhaps we can see some signs of Saruman's power!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2013, 12:00pm
Post #19 of 31
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In the books after taking action with the snow in Caradhras, he says grumpily that he has written 'Gandalf is here in signs all can read,'
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Old Pilgrim
Rivendell
Sep 12 2013, 12:56pm
Post #20 of 31
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True, but we are talking about Dol Guldur here
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Of course Gandalf is a true power who could defeat the Nine, Durin's Bane and many other great forces in Middle Earth. I have no doubt of that. But you are forgetting one important thing - the books tell us nothing about his confrontation with the Nine or the Necromancer in Dol Guldur so we don't know what kind of approach did he use during his investigations there. You cannot simply state that because he fought Ringwraits on Amon Sul in such spectacular way he react the same way in Dol Guldur because we are talking about two very different situations.
On Amon Sul his very live was in danger, he was suddenly enclosed by enemies and if he wanted to survive he was forced to reveal a great amount of his power. Dol Guldur is something very different because his intention was not to confront the Necromancer and defeat him but to gain informations and investigate a place in a proper way. We know that Olorin was always afraid of Sauron and because of that he was choosen by Manwe and Varda as one of the Istari and we also know that he was travelling among the elves unseen in his early days to learn of their ways and history. The books don't tell us how did he learn that the Necromancer is indeed Sauron but they do tell us that he learned that and escape right after that. Now he can be fighting dark forces in epic battle as he tried to escape but I doubt that because despite his great spirit he was always humble and very strict about using his true powers.
Indeed he used them sometimes in the Lord of the Rings books but still not many times and mostly only when the lives of others were in danger. In Hobbit movies they could depict Gandalf fighting dark forces in Dol Guldur the similar way he fought the Ringwraits on Dol Guldur and I will be very satisfied as Gandalf is my favourite character but in my personal opinion he was using stealth during his investigations in Dol Guldur. And do not tell me that this is something also Beornings, Dwarf Lords, Elves or men could use because none of them could travel unseen or hide their appearance. His Power is not only in his lightening and fire, but also in his ability to move unseen and other smaller things which may seems unimportant but are far from that.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Sep 12 2013, 2:43pm
Post #21 of 31
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...According to Gandalf himself, it was mostly through the "devices" of Saruman that they were able to finally drive the Necromancer out (of course, in another sentence he says that the Necromancer's escape was actually planned from the get-go).
In any event, I think this thread is mostly talking about Gandalf exploring Dol Guldur looking for answers (which happened 90 years prior in the books). Gandalf needs to find evidence that it is Sauron in Dol Guldur so he can go and convince the Council, or rather Saruman, that Dol Guldur needs dealing with. So we'll be seeing Gandalf in Dol Guldur twice, most likely. First when he's looking for answers with Radagast, encounters a crazed Thrain, and barely escapes with his hide, and second when he is accompanied by the rest of the Council. It will presumably be that second time that we should see Saruman doing his thing (if they decide to go that route).
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 12 2013, 2:45pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 12 2013, 5:10pm
Post #22 of 31
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You can't see it very well, given daylight, but orcrist did glow on the plain during the warg attack-it is definitely blue-hued.
As to the "out of the frying pan" scene, there may have been too much orange light from the fire reflecting off the blades to be able to discern the blue. Possibly the same thing in GT when they are going through the brighter maze- since the part where Bilbo was at was fairly dark in comparison to the GG's throne room.
Even the GG mentions that the foe hammer was bright as daylight.
Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Sep 13 2013, 3:38am
Post #23 of 31
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orcrist did not glow, neither did glamdring. GG could have been referring to the blade being shiny but it did not glow.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 13 2013, 9:36pm
Post #24 of 31
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It is a trap. And as he said on Caradhras when the wargs came, ere another display of power, "Need we wait till morning? The Hunt is up!"
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I would love to see him veiling his presence when entering Dol Guldur etc. HOWEVER. . . his "life" will be in danger. It has already been established that, "It is undoubteldy a trap,". Of course he will enter in a stealth dominant approach. And of course he is not going in with the intent of facing down Sauron. Yet, recall, "Even I, Gandalf, barely escaped." It is enourmously unlikely that he is going to get in and out with no fuss, no muss. He will almost certainly be assailed, at some point, by Saurons minions as he attempts to leave with the news, with Sauron intending no doubt to make it a "check in any time you like but you can never leave," situation.
And at that, it will be a fight or fail situation. And if he is indeed targeted by Sauron's servants in the supposedly DREAD lair of Dol Guldur, it would be a horrible disservice to the reputation of that place if he escapes doing no more than Aragornesque sword flourishes. Not to mention the fact that the deletion of his Amon Sul battle with The Nazgul was ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISSED OPPURTUNITIES/AUDIENCE CHEATS EVER!!! lol.
I cannot say what aspects of Gandalf's power, if any, will be on display, but I can almost promise that he WILL have to face enemies on his way out of Dol Guldur, and IF he is hard pressed it would be a COMPLETE disservice to and misrepresentation of him if they do NOT show him putting forth some measure of his power. In the novels, in almost every instance when directly confronted with dire or supernatural peril, he performs some impressive supernatural answer to the threat. In this most dire of pinches, it would be truly ludicrous for him not to do so, and his reputation as a Wizard might never recover.
Galadriel is almost certainly going to overshadow him in the final battle . This escape is HIS moment to shine. Of course Gandalf is a true power who could defeat the Nine, Durin's Bane and many other great forces in Middle Earth. I have no doubt of that. But you are forgetting one important thing - the books tell us nothing about his confrontation with the Nine or the Necromancer in Dol Guldur so we don't know what kind of approach did he use during his investigations there. You cannot simply state that because he fought Ringwraits on Amon Sul in such spectacular way he react the same way in Dol Guldur because we are talking about two very different situations.
On Amon Sul his very live was in danger, he was suddenly enclosed by enemies and if he wanted to survive he was forced to reveal a great amount of his power. Dol Guldur is something very different because his intention was not to confront the Necromancer and defeat him but to gain informations and investigate a place in a proper way. We know that Olorin was always afraid of Sauron and because of that he was choosen by Manwe and Varda as one of the Istari and we also know that he was travelling among the elves unseen in his early days to learn of their ways and history. The books don't tell us how did he learn that the Necromancer is indeed Sauron but they do tell us that he learned that and escape right after that. Now he can be fighting dark forces in epic battle as he tried to escape but I doubt that because despite his great spirit he was always humble and very strict about using his true powers.
Indeed he used them sometimes in the Lord of the Rings books but still not many times and mostly only when the lives of others were in danger. In Hobbit movies they could depict Gandalf fighting dark forces in Dol Guldur the similar way he fought the Ringwraits on Dol Guldur and I will be very satisfied as Gandalf is my favourite character but in my personal opinion he was using stealth during his investigations in Dol Guldur. And do not tell me that this is something also Beornings, Dwarf Lords, Elves or men could use because none of them could travel unseen or hide their appearance. His Power is not only in his lightening and fire, but also in his ability to move unseen and other smaller things which may seems unimportant but are far from that.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 13 2013, 10:20pm
Post #25 of 31
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There were a few points where Glamdring glowed VERY briefly, as it was swung.
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It wasn't a gleam. I think it was, instead, a rather halfassed move to split the difference between a sword that never glowed when it should have in Rings, but that everyone (including the clever people at Lego) knew was supposed to glow. lol
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Sep 14 2013, 12:35am
Post #26 of 31
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Galadriel is almost certainly going to overshadow him in the final battle
It's obvious that Jackson likes to downplay Gandalf's power for some reason. To some extent it's acceptable in my eyes, because Tolkien wrote that at first glance, Gandalf seemed to be the least of all the Wizards (but held the greatest inherent power, save possibly Saruman before his fall) - Gandalf truly was a master of humility, and only a select few were aware of just how powerful he was. But I think Jackson takes it too far on an occasion or two. The Witch-king confrontation was a joke, thankfully it was just a short scene. The WC scene did make him look a tad weak, but all-in-all I didn't think it was close to as bad as the Witch-king scene.
However, if Gandalf, Radagast, and (if he's involved) Saruman end up looking like amateurs next to Galadriel's extreme battle prowess, then I'll be miffed. Fine, let her throw down the walls when the Council's done routing the Necromancer, but she should not be numero uno as far as the battle itself. There will likely be 3 Maiar present in this battle (4 if counting Sauron), so Galadriel being the standout would be inappropriate IMO.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 14 2013, 12:39am)
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 14 2013, 3:10am
Post #27 of 31
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Guard your heart, Salmacis. I hope as you do, but
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if hope fails, don't be surprised, darling. Galadriel is almost certainly going to overshadow him in the final battle It's obvious that Jackson likes to downplay Gandalf's power for some reason. To some extent it's acceptable in my eyes, because Tolkien wrote that at first glance, Gandalf seemed to be the least of all the Wizards (but held the greatest inherent power, save possibly Saruman before his fall) - Gandalf truly was a master of humility, and only a select few were aware of just how powerful he was. But I think Jackson takes it too far on an occasion or two. The Witch-king confrontation was a joke, thankfully it was just a short scene. The WC scene did make him look a tad weak, but all-in-all I didn't think it was close to as bad as the Witch-king scene. However, if Gandalf, Radagast, and (if he's involved) Saruman end up looking like amateurs next to Galadriel's extreme battle prowess, then I'll be miffed. Fine, let her throw down the walls when the Council's done routing the Necromancer, but she should not be numero uno as far as the battle itself. There will likely be 3 Maiar present in this battle (4 if counting Sauron), so Galadriel being the standout would be inappropriate IMO.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Cirashala
Valinor
Sep 14 2013, 3:01pm
Post #28 of 31
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Isn't a Maia actually one order ABOVE Istari?
Gandalf and the wizards are Istari, which I thought to be a different, one level less than Maiar form of the order of the Ainur.
Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 14 2013, 9:05pm
Post #29 of 31
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Isn't a Maia actually one order ABOVE Istari?
Gandalf and the wizards are Istari, which I thought to be a different, one level less than Maiar form of the order of the Ainur.
The Istari are just a specific group of Maia. However, since they are embodied in the form of Men, with limitations imposed upon their power, you could say that they are lessened.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Sep 15 2013, 3:09am
Post #30 of 31
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"Istari" is simply a name for the 5 Maiar who were sent to Middle-earth in the 3rd Age to aid men and elves in defeating Sauron.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Sep 15 2013, 5:28pm
Post #31 of 31
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Otaku and Salmacis have nailed it. To give greater specifity, Olorin and Curumo were the highest of the Maiar who were sent and became known as
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The Istari. Istari is an Elven word meaning wizard, and it was used in The Third Age in refference to The Istari, the Order of Wizards of clandestine origin who came to aid in the battle against Sauron The Maia. Those Istari-Wizards were themselve Maia in assumed, diminished forms. "Olorin I was in my youth, in The West that is forgotten," Gandalf tells Faramir, when questioned about his many names. "Wisest of The Maiar was Olorin. He too dwelt in the gardens of Lorien, but his ways took him often to Nienna and of her he learned Pity and Patience. . . in later days he was a friend to all the Children of Illuvatar and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginings of Darkness."
Curumo The Maiar, who like Sauron was mighty amongst the Ainur most attuned to the Vala Aule, came into Middle-Earth in The Third Age as Saruman The White.
The Blue Wizards and The Brown Wizard were Maiar Ainur associated with the Valar Ainur Orome` (Alatar), Mandos (Pallando), and Yavanna (Aweindil/Radagast) respectively. Isn't a Maia actually one order ABOVE Istari?
Gandalf and the wizards are Istari, which I thought to be a different, one level less than Maiar form of the order of the Ainur.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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