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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Sep 21 2013, 8:55pm
Post #101 of 127
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For all my criticism of movie Aragorn
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I personally feel Viggo is not to blame. He was too short for Aragorn, a fact he cannot help, and the whole reluctant king debacle was not his doing. Apart from a couple of other mis scripts, being throwing Frodo onto the floor in the Prancing Pony, and cutting off the MOS's head he acted Aragorn's most important traits very well, being nobility with humility. In many ways Viggo was the perfect Aragorn, given the constraints he had beyond his control.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 22 2013, 12:12pm
Post #102 of 127
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James Purefoy would have been another choice for Aragorn. I've seen him in a handful of roles now (most recently in Solomon Kane) and I could certainly imagine him for either Strider or Bard.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Sep 22 2013, 4:48pm
Post #103 of 127
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One thing I loved about Viggo's Aragorn
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was how - "reluctant" or not - he threw himself so wholeheartedly into everything, getting muddier, bloodier and more battered than anyone else. When it came to the coronation, I felt he had really earned his kingdom!
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 22 2013, 5:01pm
Post #104 of 127
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Except that his face didn't look like he thought he earned it
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He looked so unsure and insecure. For no apparent reason. By that point he had to show confidence.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Sep 22 2013, 5:21pm
Post #105 of 127
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I connected that with Arwen's absence
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- because (unlike the book version) he is coming into his own but, as far as he knows at that point, without the woman he loves who should have been there to share in his glory and the reign to come. So for him, until she shows up, the coronation is rather a bittersweet occasion and even if he does not doubt his own competence, he is looking into a future shadowed by her loss.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 22 2013, 5:22pm
Post #106 of 127
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I can't find it either, but I do remember it
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After I saw this discussion, I spent some time searching for links, but I couldn't find anything. But I do very clearly remember Viggo making the comments that Semper Fi describes, and while like her (him?) mostly agreeing with them, like him (her?) I was surprised by the timing and, much as I like Viggo felt that it was not really appropriate.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Magpie
Immortal
Sep 22 2013, 7:00pm
Post #107 of 127
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thanks for sharing your recollection.
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In pondering this (as I've been moving through my last few days), I - without having seen the actual interview - still lean toward respecting people who speak their mind. If the alternative is always biting one's tongue or being disingenuous, I'd rather people say what they think, trying to temper it with reasonableness and tact as often as they can with the understanding that will not be 100% of the time.
The timing may not have been appropriate (with that 'may' containing all the uncertainties inherent in not being able to track down the interview) but was his *thinking* it inappropriate? Was his sharing it at any time inappropriate? And does it cancel out all the other acts and statements he made that were indicative of him respecting his coworkers and the production as a whole? To my mind, the answer is no. I can't hear one statement like that, weigh it against all the other things I've heard him say (or observed him doing) or that other people have said about him and label him 'not a team player' - at least not in some sort of negative way. I love the collaborative process and am never as happy as when I'm collaborating with people (when the process is working, anyhow). But I will always be the outlier in any group and I hope my choosing to speak up about an opinion only I may hold makes me 'not a team player' in any sense that I disrespect or disregard the team process.
I still think this comes down to personalities and the kind each of us is most familiar with and most comfortable with. I think people like Viggo are very much team players and I respect them all the more because I know they consider their own viewpoints very important so they have to work at balancing out that individual - team dynamic. But that means I'm defining team player in a different way than another who doesn't see it the same.
Just as I would define 'success' of a movie, a career, or even a life in a different way than others might. I don't think I've ever taken box office revenues, professional critics reviews, or the buzz on imdb boards as any factor in measuring 'success'.
Maybe it's stuff like that that makes me an outlier. ;-)
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 22 2013, 8:12pm
Post #108 of 127
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It's good to know another person remembers it too.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 22 2013, 8:19pm
Post #109 of 127
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However, I still think he overplayed it. The closest he ever came to confidence was commanding Elven archers at Helm's Deep. And that was a whole movie and then some before coronation. It may be that nuances or this particular character nuances were not his strong suit.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
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Faleel
Rohan
Sep 22 2013, 8:27pm
Post #110 of 127
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I would be as hesitant as he was, with all the fails he had.
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 22 2013, 8:33pm
Post #111 of 127
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I don't know him and cannot say what he was thinking
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but I have my interpretation of why those comments happened at that time. In the same interview, he said he was disappointed that his character moments, in particular House of Healing, were edited out. All actors are very sensitive about having their scenes cut from the movie so he isn't an exception. I understand that. It's bad that we cannot have the link to the whole interview because, judging from the context of his ROTK (and TTT) criticism - that FOTR was genuinely character driven (true), that other 2 movies put more accent on action (also true) - he seemed to be somewhat miffed that he missed out on a nomination and blamed lack of character scenes. It's a known thing that he didn't want to be campaigned in supporting actor but in best actor category citing that Aragorn was one of leading characters. So I'd say that he really wanted a nomination and thought he would have had a shot with more character scenes as opposed to making Aragorn just an action hero. I don't think he stood the slightest chance with or without those scenes (the buzz was only with Astin save for McKellen's surprise BAFTA nom) but that's the impression I get, that he took a jab at ROTK because he didn't secure a nomination. My impression. His motives could be entirely unrelated and my speculation off base since I don't know him. I do know, however, that he heavily campaigned for his performance in A Dangerous Method, for example. Nothing wrong with that. If you want it, you gotta tell people that you want it and that they should vote for you otherwise they'll go somewhere else. So desire to get awards nom isn't out of realm of possibility including disappointment at failing as far as those ROTK comments go.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Sep 22 2013, 8:39pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Sep 22 2013, 9:34pm
Post #112 of 127
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I certainly understand where you are coming from
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I very much respect candor as well, and part of me respected Viggo more than ever for sharing his true thoughts instead of toeing the party line. But I do agree with Semper Fi that it made him seem less of a team player.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 23 2013, 5:23pm
Post #113 of 127
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"Quod non est in actis, non est in mundo."
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I cannot find any such article, Canadian or otherwise, to support the original assertion.
These are the closest I can find, which interestingly point to the opposite conclusion.
http://www.viggo-works.com/index.php?page=2405
It's illuminating that one of his favorite scenes that he objects to being cut is one he is not involved in.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/.../noframes/read/28554
"I don't think that 'The Two Towers' or Tolkien's writing or Peter's work or our work has anything to do with the United States' foreign adventures, you know, at this time."
(Note he said "Tolkien's writing or Peter's work or our work".)
******************************************
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Sometime hours and hours hence:
In The Green Dragon two ales could buy
And drank the one less filling I
And that has made all the difference.
- The Ale Less Filling, by Robert Frostymug
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 23 2013, 5:31pm)
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Magpie
Immortal
Sep 24 2013, 12:17am
Post #114 of 127
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I'll call your remembered, unfindable quote with my can-find quotes.
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all emphasis is mine to make it easier to tease out the part I'm especially focused on.
Q:. Think your lucky streak will continue at the Academy Awards this weekend? Will the third time be the charm for "Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King?" A: I've really been racking my brain about it. I've lost sleep over it. Adding up figures and making out figures. I've got the compass out and I've got all the tools I could muster to try and come up with the answer of who's going to win. A crystal ball, everything else. I know this may be reaching, it may be a crazy thing to say, but whoever gets the most votes is going to win. I don't know, is that weird to say that? That's what I think (laughs). Q: So you're not interested at all? I'm not into comparing movies or performances. In principle, I think the idea of rewarding a good effort is interesting, but movies are generally different from each other as are performances and the conditions on how the performances are given and how they're edited and so forth. I don't invest a lot of time in even thinking about it. I don't relate it to what I'm doing for a living. I understand it's a whole satellite business that's not directly in my opinion connected to movie-making or art. It's a nice thing I guess and I certainly wish everyone luck who was nominated on my team. But it certainly doesn't validate or invalidate the "Lord of the Rings" or Peter Jackson if it wins or loses any of the 11 nominations it has. It doesn't really matter to me. Feb 27, 2004 http://sports.espn.go.com/...page=10bqs/mortensen
Q: I can’t help thinking that Peter Jackson has been underappreciated for what he’s managed to do with this enterprise. If Stanley Kubrick or Steven Spielberg were making this thing, there’d be an uproar of appreciation and publicity. I mean, he literally made three epics in almost one sitting, put together incredible extended DVDs and somehow managed to stay faithful to the spirit of Tolkien and his massive following. A: Yeah, as well as you possibly could. You know, he’s not someone who goes out there, like some people, and very obviously chases awards. He does what we all are not only contractually obligated to do but, most importantly, are happy to do — promote these movies. He’s not an artist who goes around relentlessly chasing Oscars. Some people will take or pursue a particular job so they can put themselves in a position to win an Oscar. I think that can be kind of sad. It doesn’t mean that they’re in any way deficient as artists or they’re not going to do a good job, but I think someone who has that as their main goal risks missing out on the true satisfaction of teamwork, of being in the moment and enjoying the moviemaking process. You’re not really giving your full attention to the work. I don’t think Peter has anything against being rewarded with trophies, but I don’t think he really cares about it as much as he does about making good movies, about telling good stories. Maybe he hasn’t gotten an Oscar because he doesn’t seem to be kissing enough ass, or the appropriate asses. I don’t know. [..] Q: One reason that Tolkien still seems relevant is that he’s trying more than anything to communicate how dangerous and difficult it is to get completely different cultures to come together for the common good. A: Oh, yeah. I think the movie’s success highlights those complications. We’ve talked about how some people don’t feel the films have gotten their due; to me, that’s something to be vigilant about, because it’s a trap. I mean, how much credit do you need? You find people getting greedy, even over that. It’s one thing to expect to be paid the money or respect you’re owed and have earned. But ideally that is not really why you’re doing the job in the first place; you’re expecting to be treated fairly, yes, but that is not guaranteed. That is something that either comes to you or it doesn’t, that you will sometimes need to fight for. If you’re going to get pissed off about not getting your due in terms of special individual attention in popularity contests such as award shows, that’s akin to not being satisfied with working within a group for the common good. What you can control is your attitude and the integrity of your own effort. There’s an interesting parallel in that, with the characters’ individual journeys in this story. Oct 24, 2003 http://www.salon.com/2003/10/24/viggo/
that's consistent with other comments I've seen/heard him make which makes this assessment of yours from the interview we can't find kind of hard to believe:
he seemed to be somewhat miffed that he missed out on a nomination and blamed lack of character scenes. It's a known thing that he didn't want to be campaigned in supporting actor but in best actor category citing that Aragorn was one of leading characters. So I'd say that he really wanted a nomination and thought he would have had a shot with more character scenes as opposed to making Aragorn just an action hero. I don't think he stood the slightest chance with or without those scenes (the buzz was only with Astin save for McKellen's surprise BAFTA nom) but that's the impression I get, that he took a jab at ROTK because he didn't secure a nomination.
This is kind of a spent topic. It seems unproductive and a little dangerous to be discussing impressions of a years old interview that some of us haven't read and no one can find to examine for this discussion.
so... my last contribution. I think we've both done a good job of outlining our opinions and making our points.
cheers.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 25 2013, 5:47pm
Post #115 of 127
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I can't recall of JRRT ever described elven noses.
[Numenoreans] became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves.
-Letter #133
[Denethor] was very tall and in appearance looked like an ancient Númenorean.
-The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 7, The Heirs of Elendil: The Ruling Stewards of Gondor
Pippin saw [Denethor’s] carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose between the dark deep eyes; and he was reminded not so much of Boromir as of Aragorn.
-ROTK, Book V, Chapter 1, Minas Tirith
QED, elves got Roman noses.
Frankly I prefer Cate's.
******************************************
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Sometime hours and hours hence:
In The Green Dragon two ales could buy
And drank the one less filling I
And that has made all the difference.
- The Ale Less Filling, by Robert Frostymug
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RosieLass
Valinor
Sep 25 2013, 11:31pm
Post #116 of 127
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The whole film trilogy sacrificed character for ramped up action.
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Maybe it wasn't appropriate for Viggo to say so during a film promotion tour. But on the other hand, if it's true, why shouldn't he say it?
I didn't like Aragorn at all, but it wasn't Viggo's fault. Some of these other actors could no doubt have done as good a job as Viggo did, but the character would still be wrong and entirely miss the point of Tolkien's king-in-waiting. But that's a scriptwriting failure, not a performance flaw.
"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Sep 25 2013, 11:34pm
Post #117 of 127
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Sean Astin's book "There and Back Again: An Actor's Tale" had some insights into the situation.
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Whether he was in a position to be an authoritative voice or not, I don't know. But it's at least another point of view.
"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Sep 25 2013, 11:35pm
Post #118 of 127
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Being difficult is no reason to cheat him of his wages.
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I'm not saying they did. Just that if they owe him, then they owe him, no matter how much of a jerk he might have been.
"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)
It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Sep 25 2013, 11:59pm
Post #119 of 127
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Right, I recall that section....
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Sean indicated that Stuart may have let his own demons pop up too much....whatever that referred to. Sean indicated that they realized he was too young and just not the fit for the character. My guess is they were looking for someone closer to Liv Tyler's age as a "couple" than realized their mistake.
I always wondered how much flack or professional cost Sean had with the writing of the book...tell alls rarely help at this stage of one's career.
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Sep 26 2013, 1:18pm
Post #120 of 127
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Astin made so many gaffes before the book
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that I honestly don't think it made any difference. If anything, his baffling speech at SAG Awards (when ROTK won Best Ensemble) when he took the stage and tried to launch his political platform for running SAG was likely far more damaging. The book was an just icing on the cake. I mean, he spend 3 years constantly on E! giving some ridiculous statements. Anyone remembers his blabbing about saving people from subway tunnels during the Big Blackout?  And that he would direct Fantastic Four and get George Clooney to play Mr Fantastic? And his flirting with Democrats and Republicants ("I"m against Bush but pro-War on Terror"-type of speechifying)? LOL. The guy was so delusional. I think he was one of those people who think they had it all figured out and played everyone to his advantage and then ended up sabotaging himself. And the book was really "Sniff, sniff, buaaaaah, I wasn't one of the favorites on the set...and out of 100 Oscar bait scenes that Sam had in ROTK they cut 1 and I couldn't get Oscar nomination because of it...buaaaaaaah." Just ugh.
"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards
Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.
(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Sep 26 2013, 1:20pm)
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 28 2013, 1:41am
Post #121 of 127
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To me, the best thing that ever happened to this trilogy was Viggo. None of the others I can even imagine. I love DDL's work, overall, but not here, no. Viggo has the combination of looks, reserve and method acting. Moderate yet powerful presence. Able to deliver the very complex choices and changes Aragorn goes through and carries from his past. There is nobility about him. Class. This is something a person either has or not, one can't really play it. I've watched many movies with Viggo since then and to me he is a fantastic actor, way underrated, way!
P.S. Anuone seen the "47 Ronin"? Keanu?????? Not only a number of scenes are directly copied from LOTR movies but this man is just... either not acting at all or over acting. There is no golden iddle for him. And I've hit the stage at 8 for the first time, it's not like I don't know about acting!
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 28 2013, 1:55am
Post #122 of 127
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has never wanted the fame you seem to expect every actor to pursue. He is perfectly happy with his present and past roles and as far as his future plans go, probably even more indie and artsy films are on the way. And charisma is a very subjective thing. Just like beauty, it is in the eyes of the beholder because to me Viggo has tons more charisma than any actor you've mentioned in any of your posts (some of which seem stars to you but I had to google them and watch some videos to even know them).
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 28 2013, 1:58am
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And I've also met him at TIFF. A man with great charisma! Of course, as most actors, he can tune it down if/when necessary or desired by him (often).
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 28 2013, 2:00am
Post #124 of 127
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I've never seen or heard of an actor who is equally charismatic to everyone to see it. Such doesn't exist. I know hundreds who find Tom Cruise so charismatic they fall stricken but to me he is plain blank. Same goes for Brad Pitt. Russell Crowe. Hugh Jackman I can hardly watch. Just to name a few.
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simplyaven
Grey Havens
Dec 28 2013, 2:11am
Post #125 of 127
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And, BTW, here in Canada we are celebrating Cronenberg with panorama at TIFF's Lightbox, the theatres are full! Viggo has many fans aside from the LOTR fanbase. And for a good reason. I can only admire him for not biting the "Hollywood star" stick. It only shows again and again his intelligence.
We don't need another Keanu, able to "open" a Matrix trilogy and a Speed and nothing else. Ah no.
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